The electrician shortage slowing the AI boom

0:02Shayle Kann: Latitude Media, covering the new frontiers of the energy transition. I'm Shayle Kann. I invest in early stage companies at Energy Impact Partners. Welcome to Catalyst. So I've noticed that I keep coming back to this question of what the current rate limiter on AI infrastructure growth is. As I'm sure you've heard if you've listened to this podcast, I think the main candidates are demand in theory. Nobody really picks this right now. Chips, power, and labor. The last one people mention a lot, but then I've found kind of move right along. Whereas the others, chips and power, get a deep dive worthy of their rate-limiting status.

0:42Shayle Kann: I think that's because labor feels to be maybe the most intractable of them all. To a first order, the AI industry can kind of throw money at the other problems. They can buy chips from AMD instead of NVIDIA. They can try to convince TSMC to expand capacity. Or on the power side, they could buy gas turbines to throw behind the meter from GE or Siemens or an air derivative supplier. Or they can sell out Bloom's fuel cells for years and years and years. Not to say those things are easy, but when it comes to labor, it's sort of a trickier problem. To be clear, lots of players in the market are trying to do something, workforce investments of one kind or another.

1:19Shayle Kann: I think it's just a little bit outside their comfort zone. Anyway, the result of this is that I think workforce, particularly for electricians, is maybe the least appreciated, but certainly one of the most important bottlenecks in this market. And I wanted to dig into how it's actually manifesting and what one might do about it. For this one, I brought on Raymond Hawkins, who's the CCO at Compass Data Centers. That's coming up next. Thank you. costs and managing all your distributed resources in one place. Ready to transform your distributed energy management? Get started at gridbeyond.com. Catalyst is brought to you by Antenna Group, the communications and marketing partner behind the most influential companies in energy, climate, and infrastructure.

2:30Shayle Kann: For three decades, Antenna has helped ambitious companies stand out, build market leadership, and become category-defining brands. From breakthrough startups to global industry leaders, their team brings the expertise, relationships, and track record to accelerate your momentum. Learn more at antennagroup.com. The power plant for the modern grid isn't a building. It's a network. Energy Hub's DERM's platform connects batteries, EVs, thermostats, and commercial and industrial sites into virtual power plants that over 230 utilities dispatch as reliable grid capacity day in, day out. VPPs deploy in 60 to 100 days at 40 to 60 % less cost than traditional infrastructure, and they perform like conventional generation from day one.

3:15Shayle Kann: Learn about the flexibility platform for the modern grid at energyhub.com. Raymond, welcome. Hey, glad to be here. Thank you. All right. My first question for you is, my sense is that when people talk about what's the rate limiter for the growth of data centers, um you know there's a list of things that people point to the chip supply chain being a big one power and power availability being another maybe right now community pushback being another one that has emerged one of them though yeah one of them though clearly is is also labor in the workforce um but i think it gets the least airtime of them um you know if you're to think through for you guys, what stops you from skyrocketing your build-out rate?

4:06Shayle Kann: Where does labor rank? Yeah, today, you listed probably 1A and 1B. Power is the biggie, and the community has raced up the list pretty quickly. Didn't think we'd be at the White House six months ago talking about who pays for infrastructure on the grid, but we are. And right after that would be labor. And I would tell you, it's interesting, the question of, hey, is it stopping us? What it's doing is costing a lot more money and putting a strain on the schedule. Lots of management of where can we get the right people slotted in at the right time. If we had all the labor in the world, we could go faster, but there's without a doubt, and especially in the electrician space, It's a tough space to get enough bodies in enough hours because most of our projects, we're trying to run them 24-7.

5:04Shayle Kann: Yeah, so what does that actually look like? I mean, you alluded to it, but I'm interested in to get a little bit more detail. Like, you know, you're building a new data center. You're going to need a certain amount of trained electrician work, a certain number of person hours, let's say. Like, what is the actual process to go find that workforce and then, you know, presuming that it is constrained, as you're saying, How do you manage that? Yeah, so we could probably find people with a better answer than me, but at the end of the day, it starts with our selection of GCs. And it starts with us building a relationship in the marketplace and going through the bid process early on and going, hey, this is what our labor pools are going to look like.

5:47Let's think about this today. Let's think about this long before we get there. There is a lot of moving labor around. We have a large project going in Mississippi. You know, when I tell people we have a large project going just outside Jackson, Mississippi, some people go, where's Jackson, Mississippi? So kind of the point of it's not in downtown, you know, Atlanta or downtown Chicago. So there's lots of work ahead of time thinking about where are we going to find the labor? What markets are we going to go get that labor? And is that labor willing to get picked up and moved? And then when we do pick them up and move, is there enough housing for them?

6:23I think sometimes a popular show, Landman, you see in Landman those camps where there's just trailer and trailer after trailer. There's a lot of that at data center sites where you are bringing the labor, especially in these Tier 3, Tier 4 markets, and providing places for them to live and eat and stay so that they can be near the job. Because 40 miles outside Jackson, Mississippi doesn't have 500 highly trained electricians.

6:49Shayle Kann: Yeah, you know, I wonder whether I guess this must be the answer. This must be yes. But like, is there a new category of like journeyman electrician who is, you know, going and spending six months at a time or whatever it is at living in a camp in outside Jackson, Mississippi, and then in Abilene, Texas, and then in where you know, wherever the next data center is going to be? Is this is this a whole new category of electrician? We have seen teams that will manage a team environment where they'll roll guys in 30, 60, 90 days at a time. I spent four years in the Marine Corps. It feels a little bit like days of deployment where, hey, we're going to get ready.

7:28We're going to go get the ship ready and it's going to go out and it's going to be in the water for six months. And then we're going to come back and switch everybody out. It feels a little bit like that, right? Because the projects are so big and so long that we are bringing waves of talent, waves of skill into the marketplace, giving them a place to live, eat, sleep every day, and then going to the job site where you're bringing literally an army of electricians. And to your point, at all different levels. But yeah, the journey part of it or the travel part of it, just like travel nurses, there's a lot of that.

7:58It's all over our marketplace.

8:00Shayle Kann: You mentioned especially electricians. I want to double click on that for one second because, you know, it's not just electricians that you need to build the data center. There's all sorts of construction that gets done. There's plumbing, other things like that. Is your sense that it's just that the supply-demand balance of electricians is most acute? People do say electricians seems to be the one that, like, is the biggest bottleneck. Is that why? Or is it just, like, disproportionate number of electricians that you need because the data center is basically a ton of wiring? Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both, right?

8:33Some of it is there's so many electricians and the level of electricians you need, right? You know, the panel that gets put on a data center doesn't look anything like the panel at my house. So you've got much more senior, much more capable electricians, one. And then two, you need hundreds of them, right? Because to your point, at the end of the day, the reason we charge rent based on kilowatts is it is the limiting factor in the building. And so, one, we have really, really skilled electricians, really, really high-end electricians working on really, really, really big systems. It is the biggest piece of the skilled labor.

9:07Yes, there's heavy equipment operators, and yes, there's plumbers, and yes, there's sheetrock people. But all of those look much more like a traditional build. The electricians are much more involved and much more sensitive to the facility.

9:21Shayle Kann: That raises kind of an interesting question, which is, is the bottleneck predominantly just there are not enough electricians in the country, let's say? Or is it that there are plenty of electricians, but actually you need this specialized, you know, higher level trained subset of that category? And if only you could, so like, we're going to get to what do you do about this, right? But is the fundamental thing you do about this, get more people trained as electricians or is it get more electricians trained as specialized electricians basically? So in good AT &T fashion, I think it's and. I think we need more electricians and we need more senior electricians.

10:02It's both. It is not either or. You could employ more electricians today without a doubt, and you could employ more higher end electricians today. Just the industry is swallowing up the capacity. I mean, just like you see in the utility providers struggling to keep up with our industry from a pace perspective, same thing with the electrician, for lack of a word, industry or market, has struggled to keep up the pace of the growth. I mean, it's hyperbolic. I mean, it's on the news every day, so everyone knows all about it. But to me, I think about it just like the utility providers. Those guys have never heard numbers this big and never heard numbers coming this fast.

10:39And that same problem is not only is it manifest in the generation, you know, transmission and distribution side of the business, it's manifest in who's going to wire this on the other end.

10:50Shayle Kann: are there i mean you mentioned at the beginning it's like it's an expensive problem for you i was having a conversation not too long ago with i'll say an unnamed uh infrastructure person at one of the hyperscalers who said i think in like half joking fashion i think we're going to be paying electricians like two million bucks a year pretty soon are you seeing like bidding wars for talent Is that kind of where we're at? Without a doubt. Yeah. The electrician, the cost for electricians, you know, I'm going to give you a, you know, estimate has tripled in the time I've been in the business. Tripled.

11:27Tripled. Yeah. In the last decade. Yeah.

11:30Shayle Kann: So you would think, you know, if you believe in an efficient market, that with some some period of time, the ability to earn triple wages effectively becoming an electrician would sort of naturally result in a larger workforce. maybe not overnight because it takes time to train but like you know even in the absence of some of them or the clever and new programs that folks are pursuing including yourselves you know the market would fix itself you would think um do you see that happening so so i so i agree i believe in an efficient market i believe that the markets draw talent when there's money to be earned there and that is happening we see it happening in basically every market where we work, where there are people creating training programs, creating fast tracks, creating methods and means for people to get up to speed and to supply more capabilities in the marketplace because the demand doesn't, I mean, and that's the other thing.

12:33We talk about a lease that gets signed today. We're going to be building that campus for four or five years. So, you know, being able to, I mean, you could start with someone today and spend two years with them in an apprenticeship, and they're still going to be useful on our campus for three or four years while we're building there. These things don't go up overnight. It's a lot of work for a long period of time. And so that's one of the reasons we've tried to get into the markets where we are and start education programs. We're going to be here for a while. We know we're going to need people at the other end of this.

13:06Let's start training in ourselves. Yeah.

13:08Shayle Kann: So tell me more about that, what you guys are actually doing. And also, you know, one thing I've learned about this space is that, you know, it's a complicated model, or at least historically, it's been sort of a complicated model for how new, let's just focus on electricians still, get trained and how they pay for their training, for example, right? A lot of them will do it through federal grants and so on. It's not historically the case that like an employer would say, I need a ton of new electricians, I'll pay for their training, or I will sponsor it or something like that. So that's As the ultimate employer, or maybe not even the employer, right?

13:44Shayle Kann: Because maybe your GC is the employer. You're just the one who needs them to exist. What is the role that you can play in manifesting them? Yeah. So we talked about, I mentioned that we're building campuses and those are multi-year projects. So we've looked in the markets and we've started the projects and we said, hey, what do we need to get this project finished? We need more skilled labor. We need more, and you'll hear us use the phrase mechanical, electrical, and IT skills in a marketplace. And can we help the marketplace provide that skill? The biggest campus we have to date is in just south of Dallas in a suburb called Red Oak.

14:25And we partnered with a community college there, Texas State Technical College, and said, hey, if we were able to convince our partners alongside us to build a curriculum, would you be willing to, for lack of better, pilot a program where we train in those three disciplines? And so in partnership with Texas State's Technical College and multiples of our partners, because to your point, right, the end user customer is the general contractor or the electrical contractor. He's the one who needs the employees. Our partners, so think of Schneider Electric or Siemens, people whose equipment needs to get plugged in by those electricians, have all helped us stand up a school at Texas State Technical College, a program to train people.

15:1112 weeks, you start off, you don't have to know anything about the data center business, and you leave on the other end an entry level but prepared to go work in the data center business on the construction side. I can't remember if we just completed our second cohort or just started our third, but we already have the first cohort through the program and already employed at dramatically higher wages than the average in where we're located. So for us, it's, hey, there's a problem. And it's not only just, hey, we need people to help build our buildings, but how do we serve the communities we live in?

15:45It's really a way for us to do two things at the same time, help the communities where we're trying to build infrastructure, as well as solve a problem for the industry.

15:55Shayle Kann: I do wonder, I guess, you're building one massive construction project in a given location. It may be, I mean, if you're in Northern Virginia, there's lots of these, right? But it may be that at this location outside Dallas or the one outside Jackson, Mississippi, it's not like there are going to be a bunch of data centers popping up in that same region. So is the notion you're training people on this specialized set of things, they're going to have a few years of employment while you're building out this one big campus, and then thereafter they go travel to wherever the next data center is going to be?

16:30I think there's really two tracks after the campus is done. First of all, it's years. So that Dallas campus will take about five years to build. But to your point, it will come to an end. And for us, I think there's two tracks after that. There are longstanding jobs on the campus that having mechanical, electrical, or IT infrastructure skills, you can deploy staying in your home market. And then the industry certainly has, to use your phrase earlier, opportunities for journeymen to move to projects all over, right? There's Wyoming projects and there's Project Yars in Mississippi. There are lots of more remote, large projects going on.

17:06The Panhandle of Texas, there's lots of big projects. And we certainly expect there'll be people, just like we had to do in Jackson, moving to go work there for four or five years.

17:16Shayle Kann: Yeah. There's obviously, in theory, two things you can do about a labor shortage for data center construction. One is find more people, which is what we've been talking about. But of course, the other is require less people, which has more to do with the design of the data center and can you prefab some of it and things like that. How much opportunity do you guys see in just minimizing the number of labor hours that are required in total, maybe particularly for electricians? Yeah, I can tell you, that's one that's been part of Compass from the very beginning. So I'm going to toot our horn a little bit.

17:51We viewed building data centers as really a manufacturing process from the very beginning of our business, not a stick-built construction project, but rather an assembly project. and our motivation there, I know you're asking about how do we manage, does it help with the headcount problem? Our motivation there was really a couple of things. Speed, higher quality, and a more diverse workforce. If you can, we talk about putting a project in Jackson, Mississippi, almost all of the people that are going to show up in Jackson and do the work are going to be men, for lack of just the dynamic at home.

18:29Someone's got to manage the stability of the household, take kids to school and whatnot. And so generally it's a more, the traveling journeyman worker is generally a man. And so by doing offsite manufacturing, putting together large components of our data centers offsite, it allows for a safer, more diverse and more reliable product, right? Safer for the employees, more diverse because giving somebody, hey, you can be here from eight to five. You don't have to live in a different city. You can be home in the evening with your family. It allows us to employ more women in the business, and it makes the business much safer to operate.

19:05Instead of doing complete stick build in the field, being able to test and commission and assemble off-site and just roll it in a truck. My boss gets really mad when I say this and snap it together like Legos. He does not like the Lego analogy, but it really works for me. That is much safer. It's much more reliable. It's fewer hours. It's far less risk to the people on site. So for us, our motivation was to make the sites safer and faster, but what it has led to is a requirement for less skilled labor. Less skilled labor at the job site. There's skilled labor now, but it's now spread around manufacturing facilities with our partners.

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21:35Shayle Kann: Utilities target, shape, and verify capacity down to the meter. Unlock flexible capacity that costs 40-60 % less to deploy than traditional infrastructure in a fraction of the time it takes you to break ground on a peaker plant. Learn more at energyhub.com. What can you actually prefab? Like what I'm trying to imagine, what are the Lego building blocks? Yeah, yeah. Good question. So almost everything in the electrical world and almost everything in the mechanical world are prefab for us now. So think of all the way out from where the utility comes onto the campus and I've got a transfer switch or I've got a transformer that I'm stepping down.

22:13We'll have all of that pre-assembled on a skid so that you don't have to have somebody wire between the transfer switch and wire between that and a transformer. We'll have the entire power center, everything in there that distributes electricity into the building, all show up in one unit. We have our entire, today, both liquid or hybrid cooling, so both liquid and air, shows up in a single package unit. So these things, you're not having to put together any of it on site. All of our buildings are tilt up, you know, prefabricated so that the panels show up and we literally just crane them and set them in place.

22:55So no one's having to make any of the walls. No one's having to pour any forms or fill any forms or pour any concrete. They all show up on a truck, again, literally just like Legos. Slab A goes in slot A. Slab B goes in slot B. and they get lifted off a truck and slid into place. So almost the roof is the same way. We have prefabricated double T's that support the span. Literally the whole building gets, almost the whole building, it's about 85 % of the building, gets snapped into place, showing up on the flatbed of a truck.

23:30Shayle Kann: It's remarkable that despite all of that, it's still a five-year construction project and also you still need all of these laborers. You're still having a short, like you've done so much. to modularize it and prefab it. And yet, there's still so much more that needs to be done. Yeah, in the five years, on the example in Dallas, that's because it's 10 buildings, right? So it takes us about nine months to build a single building. And then you go, well, wait a minute, Raymond, that doesn't have it for five years. What's the scale of a building? Sorry, what's like in megawatts? Yeah, 40 megawatts, a little over 200 ,000 square feet.

24:09Help people understand that. Think of your Sam's Club. Your Sam's Club's probably somewhere between 30 and 40. Maybe big ones are 50 ,000 square feet. So think five to six of your Sam's Clubs under one roof and lots of electricity.

24:23Shayle Kann: And you said 40 megawatts apiece, something like that. 40 megawatts is what we build today. Okay, so if you're building five of those, that's a 200 megawatt data center. Or if you're building nine of them, I guess you said, that would be a, yeah. Yeah, the one in Dallas is 10, so it's 400 megawatts. We have lots of fives and lots of tens around the U.S., so lots of 200s and 400s. And in the world of data centers today, I remember, been in this business 13 years, I remember we talked about kilowatts. It is completely normal to talk about gigawatt campuses today. Right. What's the rate limiter on the building?

24:59Shayle Kann: Or not the rate limiter. What stops you from having a gigawatt building? So for us, we've chosen the form factor we have because we have some beliefs about how you impact the environment, how you impact microclimates around the building. So we've done a lot of study. Lots of CFD happens inside the building. Hey, computational flow dynamics, how am I going to move the energy around? How am I going to move the heat up? How high do I move the ceiling? Do I have to spend any money letting the heat move around the room? there's lots of study what's going on inside the building we've done a good bit of study on what goes on outside the building right when you have all of this equipment um not only exhausting but also sucking air in and pushing warm air out you can produce microclimates so for us we've chosen the 40 megawatt form factor to allow us to spread the buildings out and not impact the performance of the equipment can you do it in larger form factors you can absolutely um do i think that will move our form factor up not anytime soon.

26:04We felt like we figured out a sweet spot between the equipment we buy, the readily available nature of the equipment we buy, managing the building that size. But certainly people that do purpose-built buildings that are very specific engineering can build larger form factors. It's just not in our roadmap at this time.

26:21Shayle Kann: I think we should spend a minute on the community stuff. I mean, it's tied to the, you know, you mentioned that that is one of the reasons to invest in workforce that's local and so on. But it's also obviously become, it's flared up as a really big issue now. What is your perspective on what best practices should be for a data center developer entering a community to position yourself to be able to actually build the thing and not get the kind of backlash that we're seeing right now? Yeah, Shell, I got lots of thoughts on this one, so I might ask you to tap the guardrails and keep me on message here.

26:56But I'd say the biggest one for us is our industry grew up being secretive. Not secretive because we had anything to hide from anybody, but think about the first two significant customers for large-scale data centers. It was the financial institutions and it was the government. And they were secretive about where that large compute footprint sat purely from a security perspective. There was nothing to hide from the community, but you didn't want anyone to know where JP Morgan's bank processing big computers sat. So nondescript building on the edge of town that nobody knew who it was. So our industry grew up with this secrecy only because it was part of a security plan for very crucial assets, whether financial or government.

27:40That's the history of the business. And we'd never been asked really to be transparent about where we built. So this notion that somehow the industry was hiding anything, it was part of the security fabric of the early customers. Now that there are data centers going in lots of places and there's lots of questions, the industry needs to push the envelope to say, hey, I need to embrace the communities that I'm in and I need to let people know what I'm doing. Because, and I'm going to give a weird analogy, people were not crazy about trains when they started. People thought that if you travel 30 miles an hour, it would cause your heart to stop.

28:15And people said, hey, I don't want trains in my backyard. Edison had to give away the light bulb. No one wanted to buy it. We can't imagine that today, right? But people had to give a light bulb to someone to get them to use it. And I'm not comparing us necessarily to trains or light bulbs as far as transforming, but digital infrastructure is here. It's not going away. All of us want our cell phones. And what I think, you know, in the world of Compass, we think about a Class A developer. or what's a class A developer look like? He embraces the place where he's going. He embraces his community and says, hey, I wanna be a good citizen in the community.

28:49I happen to be a corporation and I happen to run a building, but no different than being a port or a harbor or a train or any other, a dam, a water treatment facility. I'm gonna be part of the infrastructure. I don't wanna be a good community citizen in that infrastructure. Being transparent about where you go, embracing your community, offering to help in your community, being a good corporate citizen from a support and paying for the things that you're going to use. To us, that's all part of being a Class A developer. We use that term internally to say, hey, how would you, in the commercial space, people think of Class A office space and it means something.

29:30And we think the same thing about the data center space. What's a Class A data center developer? They're open with their community. They're helping their community. They're a good corporate citizen in the community. helping not just from an infrastructure standpoint, but helping from an education, training, jobs, all of those things.

29:47Shayle Kann: That makes sense to me. I think speaking of education, I guess the other sense that I have is that there are some specific concerns that communities have about data centers, and then there's some amorphous ones that are not really localized but are a thing. The specific concerns that you hear about are things like water consumption, impact on electricity bills, things like that. And then there's some amorphous ones that are like, this is bad for my community. And I don't totally understand why I think it's bad for my community, but it's bad. And I feel like there's a big education challenge, right?

30:20Shayle Kann: You have to convince everybody that their rates are not going to go up, that the water consumption is not going to be an issue, that the noise won't be an issue, whatever it is, the specific things. And then you also just got to figure out a way to give this generalized sense of this is actually good for us and not bad for us. And I wonder how you approach the education, community education stuff. So I think you nailed three of the big ones. So we get asked about water. I talked about being transparent, secrecy. You mentioned infrastructure, the cost of electrical infrastructure. The other one is, do I need this?

30:59Is this generally just bad for me? What's that big building over there that looks weird? Do I need this in my community? Let's go through them real quick. water. So I'm going to quick compass commercial. We've been waterless cooling since the day we started. The industry with GPUs has forced a more dynamic heat rejection model. So liquid cooling comes into play. We just do it with closed loops. So we're not a constant user of utility water in the marketplace. We think that's important. Frankly, most of the industry is going that way, But it's completely fair for people to ask the water question.

31:37I just think you need to talk with your developer, talk with the data center in your space and make sure that the water they're using is not coming out of your utility and it's closed loop. In that regard, I think you largely handle the water conversation. Paying for the electrical infrastructure. For us, we've taken it on ourselves to pay for the infrastructure that delivers power to us, right? There's generation that's owned by generally the utility. Then there's transmission and distribution. and then the substations to get your site powered. We've taken the position from our very beginning that we pay for anything downstream to get to us and put that on our bill so that it doesn't impact ratepayers.

32:18And then we take that one step further. We also want to be a resource to the marketplace. I saw a video you did about your electric car sitting in your house and how much storage was in that facility in the car. I think you compared it to wall units from Tesla. Same thing, right? I built a data center. I got tons of generation on site. Me and my customer paid for that generation. Not only do we want to pay to get the electricity to our campus, but in the worst times, we want to be a resource to the grid. We want to be able to generate or turn off our need for grid power and generate it ourselves.

32:55So we try to collaborate in the markets and say, hey, how can I be a resource for the grid in your most strained times, whether it's Snowmageddon in Texas or whether it's summer July in Phoenix. We want to be able to say to the, as a Class A developer, we want to be able to say to the utility provider as well as the customers around, hey, not only are we going to pay our own way, we also want to be able to help the grid in the toughest times. So that's water, that's electricity. And then, hey, I'm just not sure data centers are good for me. It's really a big education, right? I, you know, this is not my phrase.

33:30I read it on an article yesterday, the analog American, the American that doesn't realize they're reading about data centers on their phone and they're tweeting about it on their phone and saying, I don't want it. And all of that happened in a data center somewhere. All of the things that you're reading and all of the things you're tweeting and saying you disagree with all took place in a building somewhere called a data center. And not to be ugly about it, but just to say, hey, realize we're not going backwards. We're not going to get away from a digitally connected world. And how do we partner with that digital infrastructure in such a way?

34:02How do we partner with our communities in such a way that doesn't scare people? Hey, this is a good thing for you. It's a good thing for the business. It's a good thing for your community. And can we do it in a way that makes everybody feel comfortable and safe?

34:16Shayle Kann: Raymond, this was a lot of fun. And I will say I really appreciate the way that you frame this, both from the labor perspective and the community perspective. I think there's a lot. It's a tough road for data center developers right now, just from both the practical perspective of getting enough people and then from the perspective of getting enough buy-in and license to operate. So there's a lot of learning to be done there. So I appreciate you thinking hard about it. Yeah, absolutely. It's important for us as a business, but certainly important for us. I mean, we could take it all the way to national security, right?

34:51I think having a robust digital infrastructure, I think makes us a better country. safer country. And I think you can't under, you can't overstate how important it is.

35:01Shayle Kann: Yeah. All right, Raymond, thank you for your time. It's been great. Thank you so much. Raymond Hawkins is the chief customer officer at Compass Data Centers. This show is a production of Latitude Media. You can head over to latitudemedia.com for links to today's topics. This episode is produced by Max Savage-Levinson, mixing and theme song by Sean Marquand, and Bailey edits the video version of the show. Stephen Lacey is our executive editor. All of our episodes are now on YouTube. Subscribe to Latitude Media for episodes of this podcast and Open Circuit. You can find the audio version of the show anywhere you get your podcasts.

35:34Shayle Kann: I'm Shale Khan, and this is Catalyst.