Architecture on Time: Frida Escobedo & José Esparza Chong Cuy

0:03Only connect, urged the novelist Anne Foster. He wrote this more than a century ago. Today, those words resonate more powerfully than ever. Artists and creatives collaborating across disciplines, geographies, and perceptions are truly leading the way. So join us. Let's connect.

0:27Welcome to the third season of Chanel Connects. I'm Yana Peele, Global Head of Arts and Culture at Chanel. In this series, we bring together global changemakers from the worlds of food, film, art, architecture and beyond. Some are old friends and collaborators. Others are meeting for the first time. All are focused on what matters most and what happens next. And now we get to listen in.

1:08In this episode, we're joined by two good friends, both shaping the future of our built environment. The award-winning architect Frida Escobedo, who's currently renovating the contemporary wing of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and Jose Esparza-Chonkui, chief curator of Storefront for Art and Architecture. The two of them discuss the magic of Lina Barbardi, the connections between art and architecture, and how Mexico has influenced both of their work.

1:51It's funny to be doing this conversation in English with you, Frida, because when it's just the two of us... You only do it in French. Exactly. We do it in French. But maybe can you tell us a little bit more context of how you got into architecture and your background as an architect, also as a young architect in Mexico City? Yeah, well, I was always interested in the visual arts, but I think when I was finishing high school and design in Mexico at that time was a very difficult path, like very little studios that were doing their own things. And to me, the safest path when I had to make that decision was architecture.

2:40It was like, OK, so it could be like a good base. To me, architecture at that point was a way of structuring your thinking. It was almost like learning a language. I saw this program, Art Design in the Public Domain, at Harvard GSD. And it clicked with me because it was a program that was not just for architects. So to me, it was almost like a little escape from the routine of producing space and actually questioning, like, who are we designing for? Like, who is building the environment? I wanted to ask that question before just specializing in residential or retail. And it was some of the best years known for me because it was really changing the way that I was thinking about not just architecture, but many other things.

3:28Yeah, and it's around that time actually that we met. We both were lucky enough to be the recipients of a new scholarship at the time for Mexican architects to study abroad called the Beca Arquitecto Marcelo Zambrano. and that brought us together. I was thinking a lot about practicing architecture in a different way. I had already had the experience of working as an intern at Storefront and that opened up a huge expanse of possibilities of what someone like me could do within that field. I know that you also think a lot about art and architecture and especially now that you're coming into this major project where you've been thinking about a building that has been holding an art collection that's world-renowned.

4:22I know that the objects it contains have been a major inspiration for the way you think about space. Maybe you can share a little bit about that. It's a huge responsibility. You know, like it feels like if there's one project that most architects would like to work on is a museum. And I'm very lucky to be working in one of the most prominent ones. But to me, what's very particular about the Met and the new modern and contemporary wing is that it's going to be a modern and contemporary collection that is going to be put in conversation with a larger tapestry or collage of how we understand human culture.

5:12and how through contemporary work you could build references to different geographies, different histories. Many of the inspirations derive from this idea of weaving. That's a concept that is constantly on my mind, this idea of creating connections and then variations. And I think there's something very architectural about that practice. It allows for storytelling. So I think there's something really interesting about some of those principles that we're trying to also apply to the way we're thinking about space. It's fascinating to hear you speak about these ideas and of how aware you are of how the reading of an object that has a specific cultural history is conditioned by the space in which it's presented.

6:03It's really great to hear this reference of weaving and how one can tell different stories by highlighting certain aspects through architectural practice. And I think that that's something that the legendary architect Lina Bobardi, that both of us have been thinking a lot about and have studied, she was also very aware of how the space would, or the experience of the visitor walking through the space and how the visitor would engage with the different objects would give the objects a different reading, but it would also give the visitor a different learning experience. Every moment and every sort of situation, spatial situation in her architecture is an opportunity to learn something new and to look at objects through different ways.

7:04I think that's something that you're thinking a lot about for your big project in New York. Yes. And I mean, I think, you know, like you can see how a building is actually a constellation of things, especially like the Met, you know, it's a museum of collections. And within the collection, you have these objects and these stories that are contained within each of these objects becomes a universe in itself. And I think Lina was doing something similar. She was focused on a very wide range of scales. She was doing furniture, but she was doing the exhibition design and she was drawing and she was doing these huge commissions with the same amount of detail and the same amount of attention of how this was going to become a frame for the stage of the people's lives.

7:59And I think that's why we're so fascinated with her, because it's all about setting the stage. To me, what was really the most exciting and beautiful bonding moment with you was the Lisbon Triennial. When you were speaking about the project that you wanted to develop, which was this civic stage, as you were speaking about it, I was already imagining it in my head. And you really help people create a vision that is a little bit more radical because you understand where they're coming from and you help guide them into something else. But maybe we can talk about a little bit about that project. Like how do you started thinking about the civic stage?

8:43What was your relationship with the other curators at the triennial? What was the spirit of the whole triennial? Yeah, well, public space is a grand concept and it's also a contentious space. In the arts and in curatorial practice, there's always an attempt to sort of activate social situations. and you can come up with ideas of what you want to happen, but in public space, everything is an unknown, as you clearly know. You had just finished this fantastic museum that one of the biggest gestures of that museum was to open up a big portion of this museum to make it so that the museum would face a public square rather than it to be enclosed on itself.

9:38So it made sense to invite you to think about doing a similar gesture in Lisbon. And you came up with this fantastic idea to do what we called the civic stage, which was a stage where all the events and programs would take place. But this stage was actually kind of like shifted, moved based off of the people's weight. So if there was a big crowd on one side, the other end would lift up and give almost like a natural auditorium or a natural stage to that person. It was really exciting to work around that intervention. And I think it was a big learning experience for both of us as you continue to develop sort of temporal projects that weren't necessarily meant to be permanent.

10:36And I think that could be an interesting segue to this idea of temporality because you really reflect on it through your work. And it's something that you speak about quite a lot about architectures as a practice that is not permanent, that like mutates over time and how it gathers and collects information through where and through different processes. So the idea of temporality is a very fleeting thing that changes according to culture. And it's never static. And even if you try to keep it in like the pristine condition when it was inaugurated, it actually requires like this act of maintenance that actually replaces some of the parts.

11:28And it's never the original building. So this idea of something that is in constant construction, but also in constant decay, is what I'm attracted the most in terms of architecture. Yeah, I think that's something that in a way we both really align with, that architecture is not permanent, but also that we're all conditioned by the things around us. Whether it's a building, a street sign, or a fully packed active square or plaza, or a semi-abandoned, unused one. And all of these things have a deep impact in the way we identify as people, but also in the way we relate to other people. and that's something that I've always admired about your work that you're very aware of how a simple shift realigns so it can shift a perception.

12:43I'm thinking about, and I can't remember if this project was actually realized but I think you were once talking about this sundial or this sun clock in a plaza in Mexico City. Maybe you can speak a little bit about that. Yeah, well, that project was not realized. We recycled ideas in the studio. We're very sustainable. So it ended up in a different project. The original idea was to use public space as a way of understanding how people move around it. It was related to the Civic Stage project, but with the idea of how we perceive time also and the idea that it flows and recedes, it's almost like a shoreline of activity and people spill out during the busy hours of the day at the end of the day.

13:39But there are some other moments where it becomes a little bit more contemplative. So the idea was to have this vertical element that would also mark specific moments. It's almost like pointing them out on the map that was traced on the plaza. So there were some dates that were going to be aligned to specific months of the year that were going to be signaled. So that didn't happen. But many years later, we were able to re-evaluate that idea with the Serpentine Pavilion, which was a tipping point for me. That was thinking about time and space through a very different lens, though. It wasn't just the passing of time, but it was also the way the world is sort of gridded from a Western perspective.

14:29It'd be great to hear you speak a little bit more about the inspiration of that project. Well, when I received the invitation, I couldn't believe that I was invited to that project. So it was hard to come up with an idea. I did always tell you it would happen. Yes, you did. Yes. I'm also predicting a Pritzker Prize.

14:54No, but I was trying to come up with all of these fresh ideas, according to myself. And every time I would come up with something, the team were saying, like, that has been done, like, that has been tested out, like, you have nothing new. and then I just decided to look back again into the scope of the project and the rules and the restrictions because sometimes out of the restrictions comes something interesting, like how to read the fine print. And there was this note that said that the pavilion was to be installed in Kensington Gardens for a few months and then usually they sell it to an institution or a private collector and it moves somewhere else but you never know who's going to get it.

15:41So to me, that was a moment where that kind of clicked because in architecture school, you're typically told that architecture has two main conditions. It's site-specific and it's supposed to be permanent. And that little note on the scope of work shifted that because it was site-specific, but for only a moment in time. And then it was going to be permanent, but without any specificity to the site. so that just made me think about all the ways that we measure and try to understand the space in a very abstract way as a way to try to anchor it back to a larger network of things and because the pavilion is to be installed in London I was thinking about the Greenwich Meridian and as you were saying how that precise location actually becomes almost like a ground zero for many of the social relationships and economic relationships that we share around the globe.

16:46No, this is the point zero where we start measuring hours and distances and everything revolves around this idea that there's someone who's privileged and someone who's going to be always behind. And that was my case because I was always delivering my plans a few hours later. No, I was never ahead of time. I was always behind time. So the pavilion incorporates this idea of being aligned to the Serpentine Galleries, but also shifting the axis internally to align to the true north. And in that way, the pavilion, when it's moved, it kind of echoes that original location. So it a completely different kind of network.

17:33It's crazy to think about these concepts, right? Like the true north or that there is a ground zero, basically. Especially coming from a place like Mexico, where we're both from, where time is always a concept that's tricky. Now in New York, you're now in New York as well. So I think it's an exciting time to think about a next project together. In your mind, what would that be? That's a great question. So I don't know, like, do you have any ideas of things that you want to do in the public space in New York City? I was going to say, actually, I mean, I thought you were going to lead up to what I've been thinking about is something we should do together, which is a film.

18:21Oh. Let's do a film together. Yes, let's do that. Who's directing? Who's the screenwriter? We have to figure all those things out. But I think it'd be great to think about doing a film that basically is trying to capture life through the moving image and how those stories can be shared. And I think that, I don't know, the editing process in film is almost like doing a model or drawing a floor plan, basically. And it'd be fun to think of doing something unexpected with two people that basically don't know how to do that. But I think it'd be great at thinking about like the sets and the locations and we could work on a story together.

19:03Yes. Actually, that's how we started working on the civic stage. If you remember, we were working on this place. Well, you were working on the script for some place. And this was a way of also structuring like some of the principles that were guiding the design. So we can start working on those. The storyboard? The storyboard. Yeah, yeah. I'm obsessed with storyboards. I always, I don't know. It's like, I think there's some ideas already that we've had. It's like, it should obviously be set in the Plaza de las Tres Culturas. Of course. Maybe you can speak a little bit about what that place is, because it's also something that we've both referenced.

19:46You've referenced it several times in your work. Yeah, I think it just, it exemplifies what we were just talking about, like how Mexico has this very particular idea of permanence and layering. how in one single space you can see many different moments that have become very specific, but at the same time, because they're juxtaposed, it's just telling the contemporary story. Yeah, it's kind of fascinating that it's also a public square that within it there's different time periods that are unveiled through the architecture that surrounds it. So you have the modernist building, you have the pre-colonial building, you have the colonial building, and it's this space where these temporalities somehow collapse but are also heightened.

20:46Reframing them in a way. And I think that was part of why Pedro Ramirez Vázquez was very successful designing the Relaciones Exteriores tower. You could also see it from above and it was kind of creating these reframing conditions. Maybe he could be one of our characters. Definitely, definitely in our film, this architect that in a very different way to Lina Bobardi also somehow did, like he was like the architect not only of many buildings of like the second half of the 20th century in Mexico, but he was also kind of like the architect of a national identity that's very, very complicated. And that, yeah, it's too complicated to get into.

21:35You know what? There's this beautiful piece in his studio that I think it should be shown at one exhibition or maybe it could be the main character of our film. There's this craft in Mexico for doing Trees of Life. They're built with terracotta, and they're these very elaborate trees that explain basically the origin of life. So it's usually Adam and Eve or some biblical scene that unfolds into nature and so forth. But there's one in Pedro Ramirez Vasquez's office, and it's gigantic, where he sits at the center of the tree, almost at the roots, and you can see quite literally like things growing out of his head, And it's all of these buildings that he created for all of these Mexican institutions, the Seguro Social, but also some other private commissions, the schools, all the logos that he did.

22:36So it becomes almost like this idea of the mastermind. It's quite fascinating because it was also a gift for him from probably just a governor or something like that. So it was recognizing him as a creator. in a very grand way. Yeah, that's changing, though. I think you're really changing that. I think that's quite the opposite today, you know? Like, you never want to be in the position of being in a tree of life. Frida, thank you. You're the absolute best. And it's just always great to sit down and talk with you. Gracias. Gracias, Jose.

23:25This was Chanel Connect Season 3. It's been great having you with us. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Revisit conversations from the first two seasons with guests including Tilda Swinton, Kehinde Wiley, G-Dragon, Keira Knightley, and Grimes.

23:53Thank you.