Foreigners Everywhere: Adriano Pedrosa and Yana Peel

0:04Welcome to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. It's important to be free So who was the fool who didn't recognize it all that time ago? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it is seduction, oh absolutely Just another woman trying to survive So who of them is lying? I wish that were the case Well let's face the terror of the new work then And this is what art is so good at I don't, do you prepare? No No, no In this season of Chanel Connects we've taken up residence in Italy to take you to the center of the art world. Listen in to the artists, curators, and thinkers behind the Venice Biennale, the world's most important exhibition of contemporary art.

0:47Each of our guests is focused on what matters most and what happens next. I'm Yana Peele, Global Head of Arts and Culture at Chanel. Thank you for connecting with us. Could you tell where my head was at when you found me? Me and you went to hell and got just a fine place Mary Shelley once said, there is something so different in Venice from any other place in the world that you leave everyday sights to enter an enchanted garden. In our final foray into that enchanted garden, I'm joined by Adriano Pedrosa, the artistic director of the Sao Paulo Museum of Art and the curator of the 60th Venice Biennale.

1:29Born in Rio de Janeiro, Pedrosa first studied law before moving to Los Angeles to pursue studies at the California Institute of the Arts. In 2011, he co-curated the 12th Istanbul Biennale with Jens Hoffman, and it was this exhibition that put him on the international map. Over a decade on, he's appointed the director of the world's largest art exhibition. In his words, it is the exhibition that reinforces what truly matters.

2:04Hello, Adriano. It is a pleasure to see you. Thank you for joining us on Chanel Connects. Thank you. Thanks so much. Wonderful opportunity to be here. Last time I saw you was at the opening. How was that experience curating the 60th Venice Biennale for which you selected such a provocative theme? It has been a really wonderful experience. It's such a unique experience, such an enormous privilege, really. to be able to invite so many artists and to bring so many artworks to what is arguably the most important visible platform for contemporary art and art in general in terms of exhibitions. Now, you have referenced this Art World Olympics, as it were, as the exhibition that really reaffirms what matters.

2:54And alongside that ambition, you took it even a step further to showcase a record number of artists from the most extraordinary number of countries, 80 if not more. Can you give us a sense of the theme of the exhibition and what Stranieri Avunque meant to you? It is actually coming from a series of works that Claire Fontaine have been making since 2005. Clairefontaine is a collective Irish man and an Italian woman now living in Palermo. They have been making these neon sculptures, these neon works, where one reads in many different languages the expression stranieri ovunqui, foreigners everywhere.

3:42Stranieri Ovunqui, in turn, comes from the name of a political activist collective based in Torino, in Italy, that in the beginning of the 2000s were fighting racism and xenophobia in Italy. So at the heart, there is this message. On the other hand, the expression foreigners everywhere has a poetic message. One can say that wherever one goes, one is always surrounded by foreigners. But on the other hand, one is always somehow a foreigner deep down inside. So that is the starting point of the exhibition. And then developed into these four subjects for the Nucleo Contemporaneo, the queer artist, the outsider artist, the foreigner, and the indigenous artist.

4:38And so these are the four subjects of interests I defined in order to put together the núcleo contemporâneo, the contemporary nucleus of the exhibition. But I also decided to put together a núcleo histórico of the exhibition, a more historical section. It's so beautiful. The politics and the poetry have never felt more pertinent than in a year where two billion people go to the elections. Adriana, I have to ask a quick question on behalf of a friend just before coming here. I had a curator from the National Portrait Gallery and I said, I'm going to see Adriana Pedrosa to ask him some questions.

5:13She said, please ask him in the portraiture room if there's any particular portrait that he could single out as meaningful to him. Very difficult to do that. I mean, over a hundred artists there. I would say that, I would say there are some wonderful sort of women modernists that are presented. I would say three of them I could single out instantly. Amrita Shergill from India and Frida Kahlo, of course, being presented for the first time. It's quite extraordinary that she had never participated. And Tarsila Dhamarao, who had also participated. But it's the first time that she's, and Amrita Shergill as well, is the first time they are presented alongside so many other artists.

6:01It's wonderful. I remember walking through that exhibition with our friends and with Mark Godfrey, and he looked very tired that morning. And he said he'd spent most of the night researching all of these extraordinary artists and the incredible publication that also accompanies the Biennale. So, Adriano, it feels like a surprise call and nomination, but perhaps a project that you'd spent over a decade, in a sense, preparing for. Is it fair to say that there's an incredible opportunity and responsibility that comes with being the first ever Latin American to curate the Venice Biennale since its 1895 inception?

6:37That, of course, it's a great honor, but of course, also a great responsibility to be appointed curator of the Biennale. Indeed, I'm the first curator from Latin America and only the second curator in the global south after the great Okwianwezer, the Nigerian curator that organized the 2015 exhibition. I actually saw this project really as kind of a mission to give visibility to, you know, as many artists that I thought were relevant, particularly from the global south, not just contemporary artists, but 20th century artists as well. And that's why I was really focusing on artists that had not had the opportunity to exhibit in the Biennale.

7:29The Biennale does present the most extraordinary opportunity of visibility, and it can really be a turning point. I think it often is really, it's often a turning point for the artist's career or for the perception and understanding or the reception of an artist's work because many artists in the exhibition, particularly in the nuclear historical, are no longer alive. Can you give us an idea, Adriano, just because that's such a seemingly important part in terms of proportion of living artists versus those that have passed among the 300 or so of the artists in the collectives. That was quite an extraordinary evolution from the past.

8:12How did you choose to showcase so many artists who were no longer there? And did that cause a frisson with the commercial art world? So there is a very specific reason for my introducing so many historical artists. I would say that in the last couple of decades, the Biennale, even since the late 90s, the Biennale has always been organized by Europeans and North Americans. They are often including contemporary artists from Latin America, from Africa, from the Middle East, from Asia. That does not happen so much to the 20th century. So that's why I thought it was quite relevant to try to bring so many of these pioneers, iconic figures in their own contexts, right, from the global South, to the Biennale.

9:07Of course, I often say that I would have needed five years to put together an exhibition such as that one. So what I'm offering really is an essay, is a draft, is a provocation in that respect. So many provocations there, as I think about the native and the foreigner, the living and the dead, and this idea in terms of popular art, craft, and high art. I'd love to delve into that distinction between popular art and outsider art and what that insider-outsider element meant in terms of really understanding your mission. The outsider artist is related to what we in Brazil and Latin America call the artista popular.

9:50It's not quite the same, but there is a relationship there. The artista popular is the artist operating, again, outside traditional circuits of modern and contemporary art. They're self-taught artists coming from very different backgrounds, often rural backgrounds or underprivileged backgrounds as well. And this is a tradition that is very strong in Brazil, also strong in Latin America. You also find it even in the U.S., the notion of folk artists, for example, but not so much in Europe, not so much in Europe. Whereas here in Brazil, we feel it's quite important that the narrative of art and culture that we are presenting attempts to reflect the larger culture itself.

10:41So I know it's very strange for a European, for example, to look at that work. And maybe they think it's too exotic or, you know, or too outsider. But this is something that we feel is quite part of a culture and part of the culture, you know, at large. That's a really interesting aspect. The experience of a visitor to the Biennale, whether they come from Sao Paulo or whether they come from San Francisco. Art for All has been so instrumental to your work, and that universality of the cultural experience is something we've had the pleasure of working on together with you at MassBay. Can we turn to your influences for putting together such an extraordinary convening of a lifetime of learning and meeting and collaborating?

11:26So many other incredible curators have undertaken the role of artistic director before you. One thinks of Cecilia Alemani in 2022, Christine Marcel in 2017. And I'm thinking if you could go back to any past biennale, which one would you personally choose? I think Cecilia Lemani is really, she did an extraordinary biennale. She also, she had an interest in the museological. She had an interest in the historical as well. She also had a number of sections devoted to historical artists. She, of course, had one extra year because of the pandemic. We usually have a year and a half, and she had two years and a half.

12:11And you can really see in the exhibition, I think it's an extraordinary work what she did. I would say, for me, this is, in my memory, the best Biennale I have really ever seen. And she was really, I mean, I was advancing a lot the, you know, the artists from the Global South and the Indigenous artists and the outsider artists. and the queer artists, the foreigner, but she was advancing women artists, right? So she had, you know, almost all of the artists, I believe more than 90 % of the artists were female artists. So that's really quite a wonderful achievement. What was most surprising for you?

12:51You were such a native, you had seen so much, you had known so much, you had learned so much. And yet I'm sure there were aspects of this curation that were surprising. Well, the surprises are always the artists and the works that you discover and that you encounter. And, you know, it's really such a privilege to, you know, I can only say it's the artists, really. Some historical artists, I knew many of, you know, the vast majority of the artists in the Nucleostorical already. I had those works in mind. There are a number of them I did discover throughout the research, particularly also working with Sofia Gotti, who is the artistic organizer that helped me within that particular section.

13:33But in the Núcleo Contemporâneo, there were only a couple of artists I had worked with beforehand. Of course, several I knew, but most of them I did not know and had not worked with them. And working with Amanda Carneiro, who's the artistic organizer helping me, mostly through the Núcleo Contemporâneo, it's always a privilege. Now, that's why we do this, because we want to work with artists. We want to work, you know, with their own works as well. And we want to make this possible. And it's just so wonderful to see the engagement. And it's really an enormous privilege. Yes. And I would love to ask you about your lifetime achievement, Gold and Silver Alliance.

14:15So maybe you can highlight for us the two extraordinary women that were showcased for their work. Oh, yes. Yes. There are several Golden Lions and Silver Lions. And I myself, as artistic director, I can suggest one Golden Lion, sometimes two Golden Lions for lifetime achievement. And the two artists that I decided and was approved by the board, of course, are two immigrant artists as well. One is Niu Yotere, Egyptian-born artist. She's Turkish, but she's Egyptian-born, and she's been living in Paris since the 60s, doing extraordinary work related to feminism and to migration and to, let's say, East-West relationships as well, the so-called Orient and the Occident.

15:08And the other woman is an Italian-born artist, born in Italy, moved to Venezuela, and has been living in Brazil since the 60s, Ana Maria Maiolino. And she works primarily with sculpture, but also with painting and drawing and video and installation. So these are the two artists that I think are very emblematic. Of course, very strong, powerful artists. for the two of them participating in the Biennale for the first time. I think they speak in different ways to the notion of stranierio vunqui, foreigners everywhere. So I was very happy to be able to give the Golden Lion for these two artists. Yeah, that was amazing.

15:50Anna Maria Maiolino and Neil Yalter, of course, as the recipients of the two Golden Lions for Lifetime Achievement. Adriano, can we talk for a minute of Dalton Paula? We were so fortunate on your recommendation to bring Dalton Paula into our next prize winner family. And it was wonderful to be with him in Venice and to see what it meant for an artist to be included in an exhibition of this monumental scale. Yes, Dalton Paula. This is one of the very few artists that I had worked with beforehand. I have been working with him since 2013-14, when he made some work for an exhibition called Mestizo Histories that I co-curated with Lilia Schwartz.

16:32We commissioned two portraits of his, and that's when he started these wonderful series of portraits of very important figures and characters in Black Brazilian history, who, although their narrative and their biographies might be well-known, but they're not as well-known as they should be. and often they don't have a face, right? They don't have a visual representation. I started this conversation with him about doing full-length portraits. And he says, yes, I think I have something interesting. I'll do it at some point. I'll do it at some point. And finally, when the Biennale came, I said, wow, that's a wonderful opportunity for you, you know, for us to present this work.

17:19And he accepted the invitation and it was wonderful to be able to, you know, present those portraits in the biennale. It's a beautiful contribution and meaningful contribution. And of course, an incredible manifestation of your desire to use the platform to give visibility to topics and themes to the Latin Americans, the foreigners, the indigenous, the queer, the outsider artist. I have several final questions for you. And on a personal note, I mean, you've been at the Maspi changing the face of the institution in every possible way, programming, staffing, ethos, even a new building. What is next for you personally and for Maspi?

17:59What is left to do? Well, personally and professionally, I think we are now in the middle of a very ambitious year. As you know, we organize our years according to different histories that set different themes and frameworks for our exhibition program. We've done indigenous histories. In fact, many of them reflect some of the themes of interest of these subjects of the Nucleo Contemporaneo. And this year, I think it's a very ambitious, challenging year. It's a full year devoted to queer history. So a full year devoted to queer artists in the exhibition program. Of course, next year in March, we are opening an additional building.

18:44I myself just opened an exhibition I co-curated of Cathy Opie, the American photographer, last week. I'm opening another exhibition devoted to Leo Nilsson, a late Brazilian artist, at the end of August. And in December, I'm co-curating the full sort of international group show devoted to queer histories. That's also very exciting in December. Co-curated with Julia Bryan Wilson, our curator at large. So looking forward to these. I really salute you. It has been so special having this precious time with you. And again, congratulations on your extraordinary Biennale, Stranieri Abunque, foreigners everywhere, but also friends everywhere.

19:27And your work with your collaborators has been an amazing testament to that. Thank you so much. Thanks for the opportunity and for the support. I really appreciate it. Thank you to Adriano Pedrosa. As we come to the end of the season and we have some time to reflect, We asked Adriano Pedrosa some of our favorite questions as posed to this year's Biennale guests. Do you remember the first time you came to Venice? Yes, it's 1990. Can you believe it? I was very, very young. A child. A child practice. Yes, yes. I have that catalog still in my library. What is your favorite thing about Venice? The Biennale.

20:06The Biennale. I must say. I mean, the walking culture is just wonderful. What are your walking shoes of choice? Do you know how many kilometers you have clocked? Yes. What is the survival guide of Venice? Tell us, Adriano. I mean, I got to 10, 12 kilometers a day. It was wonderful. I really missed that. And I had to buy some LL Bean boots because it's also very wet during that period. Adriano, you have a chisel, a hammer, and immunity from a rest. you can have one thing from Venice to keep at home, what would you take and why? Oh, the catalog. No, I'll just bring the catalog and the images. This is enough, you know, these are the memories.

20:54Fantastic. Now I will turn to AI. If an AI could continue the work of a dead artist, who would you choose for artificial intelligence to extend that work and why? Pass. Pass. I totally passed that. I wouldn't do that. Let's keep going. I don't think I would do that. What is your favorite taste, smell, or sound of Venice? Well, the favorite restaurant is the wonderful Nevodi. Nevodi is the best restaurant. We would go to it. It's very close to the Arsenale, I strongly suggest. And I also recommend booking in advance because it does get quite busy. That's my favorite there. And if you can't get a reservation, just say you're a friend of Adriano Pedrosa's and everything should be fine.

21:37Maybe try that. Maybe try that. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Thank you for listening to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. Now, the number five is very important to the house of Chanel, so please consider giving us five stars on whatever platform you're listening to us on. This is the final episode in this fourth season of Chanel Connects. A special thank you to all of you who've listened year after year as we've brought together some of the most exciting voices in art and culture. These conversations have led to some powerful connections. We've had friendships blossom and new collaborations emerge.

22:15It's been great to have you with us along the way. Until next time, stay connected.

22:38Thank you.