The Critics in Venice: Kimberly Drew and Andrew Durbin

0:04Welcome to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. It's important to be free So who was the fool who didn't recognize it all that time ago? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it is seduction, oh absolutely Just another woman trying to survive So who of them is lying? I wish that were the case Well let's face the terror of the new work then And this is what art is so good at I don't, do you prepare? No, no, no In this season of Chanel Connects we've taken up residence in Italy to go to the center of the art world. Listen in to the artists, curators, thinkers, and makers behind the Venice Biennale, the world's most important exhibition of contemporary art, now in its 60th edition.

0:49Each of our guests is focused on what matters most and what happens next. And now we get to listen in. I'm Yana Peele, Global Head of Arts and Culture at Chanel. Thank you for connecting with us. Tell where my head was at when you found me. Me and you went to hell and died just to find peace. In the words of architect Le Corbusier, as sailors and merchants, town builders and politicians, the Venetians were the forerunners and the youth of today's civilization. In this episode, we connect Friese Editor-in-Chief Andrew Durbin and Associate Director of Pace Art Gallery, Kimberly Drew, two prominent multi-hyphenates of the art world.

1:32Their careers began as technology ushered in the digital age, redefining what it means to be a critic, curator, and writer with powerful new tools. Together, they discussed being a part of this unique moment in time, why it could never happen again, and why being multidisciplinary simply isn't a choice. Writer, editor, and curator Penny Martin sits down with these two old friends and finds out what makes the next generation of critics tick and why the Venice Biennale is still the centerpiece of global artistic creativity.

2:14Let's start with the start. Was it at a gallery viewing or was it on the dance floor that you first met? I feel like at any point in the time that we've known each other, either are an absolute possibility. Oh yeah, both definitely happened. I can imagine it was an opening that turned into a club or a club that spilled into an opening. Absolutely. That seems like there was a certain period when we were living in New York at the same time in the early 2010s where I feel like there was no distinction between these things. No, no, not at all. Yeah. I think about an artist like Jacoby Satterwhite.

2:47Yes. I was going to say, how long are we going to get into this episode before we talk about Jacoby and how much we love him? He would have been the person probably who connected us. Absolutely. Tell us about him. Well, Jacoby is a filmmaker. He's really a world builder. He's a musician. He is someone who I first met through the curator, Ed Halter. And there was an afternoon in Soho where Ed and I were having lunch. And he said, I want you to meet this artist, Jacoby Satterwhite. And so Jacoby joined us for lunch. And I remember, it's funny, it wasn't a romantic love at first sight, but it was just love at first sight.

3:20And Ed left the lunch and Jacoby and I spent the afternoon together, just wandering around. And I got to know his work. His mother was an artist herself and made thousands and thousands of drawings. And he took those drawings and digitized them to create these entire worlds of her life and her ideas that are merged with his own and dance culture, et cetera. The experience of black Americans, particularly from the South. And it was through him that we met. Yeah. You used a number of disciplines to describe them. Not only are you critics, you're both curators, your writers. Andrew, you're also a real novelist.

3:58Do you treat those as different disciplines and fields or are they all intermingled for you? I think in so many ways, they all kind of blend into each other. There's not one part of me where writer begins or ends, curator begins or ends. I think it really just depends on what the task at hand is. There's so many different ways that I think both of us have to activate in this field to keep ourselves relevant, to keep ourselves engaged as well as very like voracious readers, yappers, as the kids have been saying now, like chit chat queens, chatty Cathy's. And so, yeah, for me, I always have seen them in a very circular way.

4:38Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I think it kind of goes back to maybe the question of where we met and how we met. I think we came into the art world at this moment where you kind of had to blend everything together. So when you say that you don't really see the distinction between say critic, curator, editor, whatever it may be. I feel the same way. And I feel like that's how, I don't know if it's so true for art now, but I think certainly 10 years ago when we were really starting, that was the way you had to be. But you mentioned a slight transition that you're sensing now. What is the change? You're talking about such a specific moment, I think in art history that we're not, I think, yet able to really make sense of because it's in this very specific window that's very recent, right?

5:24But we came into an art world at a time when it was cracked open in a different way. The aperture was really wide. I talked to people all the time. If I wasn't doing social media, I'd be rotting away as an assistant curator somewhere. And no disrespect to assistant curators, we love you, we need you. But at the same time, we were able to come in in this highly digital moment. So there were all of these different access points that were made available, which very quickly closed. I think you've perfectly described it. And it's funny, I don't think of myself as a necessarily digital forward kind of writer or thinker or critic.

5:57But that was the language at the time. We were all forced to be like digital natives or digital institution builders. Completely. No, completely. And I think as you're talking, I was thinking about how much, how different social media looked, the way the algorithm worked. Actually, it privileged a different kind of voice and a different kind of criticism in many ways. And I I think that particular moment in the art world, you had everyone from Freeze, the publication I edit now, to Art Forum. They were thinking about how they could have a bolder and bigger online audience. And so that meant they needed more writers.

6:29And there was just a different excitement around that. And I think that's changed a lot, that particular dynamic for publications. COVID brought us back online, but in not a very happy way. No, a very miserable way. A very miserable way. So for someone that can't quite picture what it is you do every day, in essence, you communicate art to other people, don't you? Andrew, as you said, as an editor-in-chief of a magazine, Freeze, and Kimberly as a writer and curator at Pace. Can you explain literally how you do that? There's no way to describe every day, I think. for me, and especially within this last five-year window, I've been trying to find more solid ways to inscribe the stories that I want into history.

7:18As a person who came up in a time that was extremely digital, what I came to realize is that so few of the things that we're doing online are able to be archived in a traditional sense. The longer that I spend in the art world, more and more I realize the value of printed matter, which of course in its own way is quote unquote dying. But what does it mean to have an artist monograph? What does it mean to have an ISBN number? What does it mean to have something that can sit in a library, of course, to be made accessible to others or not, right? So for me, I came together with a person named Jay Wertham, who is a writer at the New York Times Magazine.

7:53Jay and I worked together on a book called Black Futures that is an assembly of just under 150 Black creatives across the globe, thinking about the question, what does it mean to be Black and alive right now? And so for us, we wanted to make sure that if there's a protest happening in South Africa or looking at conflicts in East Africa, how can we bring together some of the greatest minds of our generation to be in conversation in a book? Because the way that a book can travel is, I think in some ways, as sustainable as it isn't, but it provides this kind of third space for people to better make sense of things.

8:29And that's my goal in general. And that's the work. Making this visible, making it legible, making it tangible. Because while not everyone will walk into a gallery, while not everyone will have a seat at the most exclusive dinners in town, there have to be different points that we can access people. And that's what I try to do best. Andrew, as a magazine editor, the materiality of what you do is, you know, the starting point. How do you approach doing the same thing, putting it on record? Yeah, I mean, well, to think about your career, Kimberly, it's been really interesting to actually watch your evolution from someone who's thinking very digitally forward.

9:07I think we were both very interested in essentially the ephemerality of art and the interactions that happen within the art world. And I think you've really evolved into this editor in putting together books. And similar with me becoming an editor of a magazine and no longer just a writer, I thought so much more about the record we leave behind. And in addition to the magazine, I'm working on a book about two artists, Peter Hujar and Paul Tech. And they passed away in the late 80s and were born in the 30s. So they sort of span a huge chunk of the 20th century. And so much of that work over the past few years, I've really learned the extraordinary value of the written record, a physical record.

9:44And how often when artists' lives transition into a digital space, the amount that gets lost. I think we operate under the assumption that these phones are constantly recording us, that Google is this all-seeing eye that keeps a record for us. Often it doesn't. Often that record is gone fairly quickly. So I think of the magazine, it's an essential part of how I think the art world makes a record of itself. And going back to old issues of Moose or Artform or Flashart or Art News is a key way that we learn the story of this moment. So I don't want to make it seem like we have this massive historical burden, but there is a certain kind of historical burden when you put together a book or a magazine because you're very much the record that people will refer to.

10:29It was super interesting when we were working on Black Futures, asking people about even the last five years. Like, what was a major moment on social media was a question we were asking a lot of folks because our book is interested in resolving these questions. And people could only think of things within the last two years. And for me, I wouldn't be in this room, wouldn't be in these spaces without social media, of course. But I think the more time that I spend maturing, the more I understand that it has to arrive in different spaces. And I think that anybody who isn't open to at least giving these things a shot is doing themselves an incredible disservice.

11:02How close a relationship can you keep with artists? I was an academic in another life, and a lot of my peers made it a badge of honor that they kept a distance from their subjects. Is that even practical for you? I'm curious for you. Church and state. It's so complicated. I mean, and being the editor of a magazine, it further complicates it. I sit out those particular editorial conversations where an artist might come up where I have essentially a vested interest in them, even if it's just love. And that's challenging. And I sort of like that art puts me in that challenging place because I think art doesn't allow you to have that distance ultimately.

11:47And artists don't want you to have that distance. And so it's impossible to be in this world and to not to get to know people and to really feel strongly about them and to feel passionately about them. So I guess I try not to draw too strong a line because I can't pretend that I'm not invested in so many of these people and ultimately their success. That's what excites me. And that's why I'm why I think it's good at your job. Thank you. Because you care. Yeah, exactly. Well, and I'm sure I mean, you in particular are working with artists to make a show, which is also so different. So I'd be very curious to know how you make curatorial decisions when someone's in the room and obviously has spent so much time on a body of work and is thinking so, you know, they don't want to lose anything sometimes.

12:37But sometimes that little bit of loss makes the other work sing. And so I'm curious how you handle it. No, that's what I was saying. I love hearing you talk about those relationships because it's just that. It's patience. We're in such a fast-paced industry. And I think, you know, to the point of being folks who do a lot digitally, it's just getting faster. And so being able to sit and do two hour long studio visits and then go for pasta and then, you know, being able to spend as much time as I can really listening first is, I think, the greatest gift that I have. That's it. That's the great privilege.

13:12It's not so much about how to guide and all these different things. And of course, the hard decisions have to get made. But I think it's a lot easier to get it done when you're able to submit to it. And build that trust. And build that trust. Because at the end of the day, that's what I'm walking away with. Elitism in the art world is untenable. And there's only so many things that you have that are yours, truly yours. And for me, it's my relationships. For me, it's the time I have with other people. That's the greatest currency that I think we can have in all of this. So we've circled the subject of social media.

13:47Millions of people now consume art via it. How has it changed art criticism in that time? Well, now it's less fun. In the sense of how social media, the influence of social media on, there was this beginning period, which we were speaking about earlier, in which there was real opportunity. There was this explosion of platforms and there was excitement around it. And there were critics who were emerging through social media. They didn't need an art forum or a moose or a freeze to exist and to become successful and influential. I think we've slightly retreated from that because I think the influencer culture has changed for reasons I don't often understand.

14:29I'm not particularly well versed in that. But I think we've retreated to a less open world. I think that probably is due to changes on the platforms themselves and what they're prioritizing. I think it's the emergence of things like Reels and TikTok. I think those have become a different kind of platform for criticism. but in many ways it's decoupled word and image and prioritized video and speech. And that's a very different kind of criticism. And ultimately, for me at least, I work in an antiquated model still. I'm still really interested in the written word. I come at this as a poet. And there's a difference between the written word and speech.

15:08Isn't there a kind of ebb and flow with the history of every technology that there's an open moment and then it gets refined? And then it's under threat from the next thing. and then you realize both can coexist, a little bit like print and digital. Yes and no. I think the problem is we have so centralized the platforms with things like Google, Meta, et cetera. I don't think that they allow for the same kinds of freedoms now that they did 10 years ago. My issue is the kind of corporate centralization of this is really damaging to art fundamentally and really damaging to criticism. And we're really seeing this with the AI boom.

15:46I'm a bit of a cynic on this because I think the issue that artists face and that writers face that's really scary is, of course, there's the language around, well, we're all going to be obliterated and our jobs will no longer exist. Fine, maybe, but I don't think that will happen. The bigger issue that I have is that transition period, which could last for hundreds of years in which artist material is being used and co-opted by these large language models and then transformed into other works by machines. And same with writing. I mean, I'm sure Kimberly and I, all of our writing has now been, you know, chewed up by these large language models and is being used to talk about art that we might otherwise write about or someone else might write about in a way that's less open, less interesting and more rehearsed.

16:36And so I'm really doubtful of this particular moment right now. And so all of those conditions, I think, are fundamentally damaging to art. And I'm actually quite worried about them much more than I am optimistic about the technology. I could be wrong. Someone like Joel Jacoby is actually quite optimistic. And sort of one of the tensions in our friendship is between this optimism and this cynicism. them. Well, I think the thing also just to wedge in there is the algorithm and algorithmic thinking. I think the best art, best culture really requires a level of wander and mystery. I feel my brain shrinking some days because the algorithm is listening to me with such intimacy and feeding me the things that it thinks I want.

17:24And I don't want it. So is walking around the Venice Biennale a complete escape from all of that? Yeah, I think so. I think one thing that's at risk of being lost is the spiritual in art. And I think that's a really important mode. And I think as funny as it is to say, being in Venice and encountering art under these circumstances, when your phone doesn't quite work and you don't quite know where you are and you could wander from a palazzo that might be showing an exhibition of Peter Hujar into a church that has a Bellini, those kinds of juxtapositions and that kind of chance is still really important.

18:05And so, yeah, I see this at its best as a counterweight to that world. Kimberly, this is your first opening week, as I understand it. And Andrew, you've been to many before. How do you prepare? Do you read plenty before? Do you bring a pack of research with you? or do you enter spiritually naked as you described it? So I've been three times and the first time I flew from Los Angeles not knowing anything about it. Oof, yes. I wandered in. I didn't even have a ticket. Now I kind of have a cheat code because for the past two of them, the magazine that I run, we've devoted an issue to the Biennale.

18:48However, the gulf between what I know and what I encounter, what I think I'm going to like and what I actually like is so vast. It's so vast. So there's often I'm completely, by day two, everything I thought I knew is out the window. I'm a newborn essentially as far as the biennial is coming and I have no idea what's happening, where I'm going to end up. Tell us, give us an example. What surprised you? I'll tell you a moment I had. I was leaving a dinner with a good friend and I said, I have to have ice cream. and the only ice cream after midnight is this terrible ice cream place, which is just sort of whipped chemicals.

19:27Didn't matter because I needed it. And so I got this massive over large cone and I'm inhaling it in this corner and Claudette Johnson and Trevor Matheson came up. And I don't really, I of course know their work, but I don't know them very well. And I was so embarrassed to be talking to them while this ice cream is just dripping all over me. And Trevor insisted on giving me a massive hug. and I was saying, no, no, no, I don't want to drip all over you. And he's like, no, absolutely not. I'm going to hug you. And he gave me this incredible hug. And so I love moments like that. You know, that had nothing to do with the art in some ways, but those are two artists whom I respect so much.

20:07And just to encounter them and to feel that kind of warmth in that particular moment was extraordinary for me. So, I mean, there were plenty of shows and there were plenty of practices that I encountered that I loved and that surprised me, But that is maybe the, when I leave this biennial, that will be the moment that will stick with me. So romantic. I love that for you. Oh my gosh. So I didn't know what I was walking into when I first went. I was very scrappy in the beginning. I remain scrappy. I was very scrappy back then. And I only knew about our balls in Miami Beach and the Venice Biennale.

20:40And I was like, these are things I have to get to. Similarly, no ticket, just vibes. Very different for me now. Shout out to people who take care of me. I appreciate you all for ushering me into side doors. But for this one in particular, it felt urgent to be here for the opening, to be here in this moment where we're seeing such an immense representation of marginalized artists. I couldn't imagine being anywhere else. I just simply couldn't. Can you ever predict what's going to be the standout story of the B &LA? I think it does a disservice to the exercise. I think it's important for moments like this to come for the experience and not the expectations.

21:22I agree completely. I think it would be not an especially worthwhile exercise to make predictions. And I, in fact, I often don't know what stood out for me, at least until months later. I'd love you to answer one question we're asking all our guests on Chanel Connects, and it is, what are you excited about for the future of art? I will say, and this is a bit more specific than I think the question is asking, I've been so privileged in my life, period. I've been so privileged, especially in the ways of being able to use my American passport to skirt across the globe. in particular in this moment I am so enamored with artists specifically on the continent of Africa who are building residencies who are building opportunities for other local artists and requiring those of us who are not there to come there to see that work they're investing in ecosystems to support the next generation of artists to support of course the generations before but I think that that tectonic shift is something I'm so happy to be a witness to because for so long, of course, Europe is the center.

22:33Of course, you have to go to the West to make a living. And I think now we're seeing a new set of centrifugal forces at work. And so I'm hopeful, deeply, deeply hopeful that we'll be able to see over the next few decades the benefit of that. And I think we'll all be better for it. Andrew. I'm just always excited with what artists are going to do around the world as well, particularly young and emerging artists. I think about a project like Tenko Presents, which is a roving gallery in Tokyo. And Tenko just opened an exhibition with the artist Morag Kiel in her building in Japan, which is a building essentially for pensioners.

23:11And the idea is there's a painting of the Scottish Highlands outside of every elevator when it opens. And so apparently it's a thing in Japan, these particular buildings, to have this motif of the castle painting outside of elevators. And so they're sort of playing with this idea. And it's all about engaging the people in that building and creating an art experience specifically for them. And I just love learning about projects like that. And I'm always really excited that there are still artists who are doing that kind of work and who aren't necessarily thinking about the big commercial world either, or even how this will be reviewed in a particular publication.

23:50They're just making art and they're just showing it in ways they want to show it and they're having fun. Kimberly, Andrew, thank you so much for your time spending it with us. Have a very great week here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.

24:10Thank you to Kimberly, Drew and Andrew Durbin for joining us. This season, we are taking you to the heart of the Biennale. We want you to get to know not just the art, but the city too. So, we asked attendees of this year's Biennale what's their favorite thing about Venice. I think my favorite thing about Venice is walking around the Giardini and being able to see art in this very direct way in a unique environment. Oh, the thing that surprised me most is how complicated it is to get around, how the canals, the water shapes the city and how everything is oriented towards the water. So like getting off a boat or like even taking a boat to go anywhere was kind of a fun experience.

24:57And I didn't imagine or fathom it would be that complex and complicated. The coolest thing is the thing that I can find ever to see ever again, which I went to an escuela and had like these pre-Renaissance paintings. And it was the most amazing thing I've seen. Every time I go to Venice, I Google that and I try to find that. I spend like hours looking at everything and I never find this. I think there's also this moment where you step into an old palazzo and the door opens and you're like, this is here? Behind this simple, nothing door and the terrazzo floors, they never cease to amaze me. I mean, I don't know.

25:39I suppose it's just how unusual and unlike anywhere else it is in the world. That's what always sticks out to me. Is that a fun fact? I don't know. It's a fact. I don't know if it's fun. Yeah.

25:51Thank you so much to all of our contributors who joined us in Venice for the 60th edition of the Biennale. Thank you for listening to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. Now, the number five is very important in the house of Chanel. so please consider giving us five stars on whatever platform you're listening to us. Please follow the show so you don't miss an episode. Other episodes you might enjoy in the Chanel Connects archive are Penelope Cruz and Carla Simon reflecting on the power of the everyday or Tilda Swinton, Edward Ennenfeld and British Museum Director Nicholas Cullinan discussing making work that truly stands for something.