The Futurists: Adam Pendleton and Yana Peel

0:01Hello. Hi, Adam. Hi. Nice to meet you. You as well. Welcome to Chanel Connects. I'm Yana Peele, President of Arts, Culture and Heritage at the House. For Season 5, we journey to La Pausa, Gabrielle Chanel's villa on the French Riviera. We'll hear artists and innovators discuss the future of creativity and the innate curiosity that powers their work. In this episode, I had the pleasure of connecting with acclaimed artist Adam Pendleton in Gabrielle Chanel's Grand Salon.

0:36Adam, this is so incredibly exciting because I have had the thrill of seeing Love Queen at the Horshorn. And so this could be no more apt moment than to be sitting here with you just several weeks after that momentous exhibition open. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Thank you. I would love for you, if you can, to describe in terms of how that beautiful round structure embodies those decades of composition. So Love Queen is an exhibition that's very much so focused on the core of my work, which is painting. And it includes paintings from five different bodies of work, some of which I've been working on at this point for almost 20 years.

1:23So there aren't paintings from 20 years ago, but there are the most recent examples from said body of work. For example, the Black Dada paintings, which I started making in 2008, 2009. So a lot of what's happening in the Hirshhorn is an opportunity for the audience and, of course, for me as an artist to look at how the art of a particular idea transforms over time, which is a very deep interest of mine. I'd love to touch on the theory of black data. As you mentioned, 2008, such an early stage in your career to throw down a manifesto. Yes. And I'd love for you to share what that manifesto was, particularly how it relates to the avant-garde given where we are today.

2:11Yes. So when I was in my 20s, I moved myself to a very small town in upstate New York because I realized that in New York it was very hard to focus on making art exclusively. There were openings, dinners. There's always something to do. And I wanted to claim my time back. So I moved to a little town called Germantown. And then while I was up there, I had this sensation that I was a little bit isolated, like literally isolated and also physically isolated. and I wanted a way to contribute. And I decided that the best way to do that was to come up with an operating position or a concept or an idea that would allow me to be present in conversations about painting, about art making.

3:10And I came up with this concept of Black Dada and I kind of like threw it back to the city. And at that time when I would talk about it, I would say that it was a way to talk about the future while also talking about the past. Over time, Black Dada has become a theoretical, conceptual, but I think at its core, it's a visual project. and that very central idea that preoccupies me all of the time is that if you have an idea, if you're trying to represent it in the world, what tools do you have at your disposal? And so in regards to Black Dada, I decided that painting was at my disposal. But I haven't answered your question, what does Black Dada have?

4:03I've only talked about - You did, you said, yeah, absolutely. Because I think you pointed to a way of activating history to define the future, the conceptualism and the avant-garde and rooting yourself in a particular canon of blackness as well while looking forward. Well, so that's something that really gets confused because I think people think it's about a kind of perception or understanding of, quote, blackness. And it actually attempts to break down what those kinds of assumptions around blackness are or could or would be. It's not about black artists or writers. it's actually about creating a much more capacious space that is more invested in ideas of difference and dissonance.

4:53I love that. And it's such an opening to things we'll discuss in terms of the collaborators that you have also so generously brought into your world. Tell us about the words and what the titles mean to you and how that features and has an impact on how the viewer or the audience engages. So I, from the onset, want to create the dynamic where the viewer is asked to slow down and pay attention. And so love queen, love, comma, queen. You kind of wonder, well, what does that mean? And later I realized that creating these moments where people stumble and search for meaning is actually about creating intimacy or the possibility of intimacy.

5:51And love, of course, is this big open idea that we all relate to in different ways, but we don't quite know at any given moment what it means. And so it's immediately creating this sense of awareness, but again, this kind of absence of the limits of this is, this means this. I love how you touch on that intimacy of the place. And as we're here in a series talking about the home, I wonder if I can get a little bit more personal and ask you about whether coming back to Virginia, coming back to D.C., to the mall, felt to some extent like a homecoming of sorts, or how did it feel to be showing this work?

6:39It did feel like a homecoming of a certain kind. Homecoming queen.

6:47Some might say. You know, I grew up two hours from D.C., so I remember going to countless times, going to the National Mall to see Joe Hirshhorn's collection, which is one of the best collections of modern and contemporary art. And what's really great about showing at the Hirshhorn at this particular moment is that it's the museum's 50th anniversary. And Love Queen is one of the anchor exhibitions for their celebration of that milestone. And alongside Love Queen is an exhibition called Revolutions, which looks at 100 years of art, 1860 to 1960. Beautiful exhibition. Fantastic exhibition. Great curation and selection of keywords.

7:39Right. I mean, it starts with the work by Brancusi from 1922, Torso of a Young Boy or of a Young Man, which is totally abstract, right? It's, you know, these kind of geometries of, you know, there's a square, there's a circle. You know, it implies a torso, but it doesn't really look like a torso. But it also looks like it's from the future. So it's been particularly rewarding to be in dialogue with such important works that have, you know, stood the test of time. And there are so many painters in that exhibition that I admire from Joan Mitchell to Hans Hoffman to Lee Krasner. So it's just a very rich moment to be showing at the Hirshhorn.

8:34on the National Mall in DC, for sure. It's so interesting how you talk about the references to abstraction. That's an important part of your work. What is it about abstraction that enables you to express your ideas so concretely and so firmly? So abstraction, I think, speaks to the full breadth of our humanistic potential in a profoundly unique way. There are ways in which it's really a technology, actually, I would say. Abstraction is a visual technology, but it's also a theoretical technology. It's a way for us to expand our humanistic potential to see things and to think otherwise. eyes. And I like to think of painting as a kind of technology, a visual technology that expands the ways in which I perceive and also move through the world.

9:42It allows me to create context, create poetic experience and potential, and also to shape time and space. All of this all at once, All of this is happening at once. Everything everywhere. All at once. Everything. The future is here, not even the distributed. Yeah, exactly. And what else allows one to do that? Coming back to what you said about abstraction as an incredible technology and also the real interest in slowing things down, I feel, for those who get to engage with your work. We're really excited. We are just on the cusp of opening a Center for Artists and Technology at CalArts. Yes, I read about that.

10:23I'm really excited about that. Yes, congratulations. Thank you so much. And in that process, it's just the beginning of a journey in figuring out what it is that is demanded by artists to ensure that they continue to have freedom of creation and the authorship of their work. So I'd love to just ask you about what technology could mean for you in the future. So artists always use the latest technology, I feel, to make their work. And if the technology or technologies that they need don't exist, they create their own. And so I'm particularly thinking right now about Jack Whitten's developer, for example.

11:08This giant tool or squeegee that he used to literally blur the surface of his paintings. I'm thinking about Duchamp, for example, who created the technology of the ready-made, which completely changed what art would become in the 20th century and has deep and profound influence in our current moment. I use technology in my work as well. I think if we go back to Jack Whitten and Duchamp, I think in a strange way, this technology is invisible. You know, AC Clark said that any advanced technology is actually indistinguishable from magic. So that has a real resonance when I hear you say that. Yeah, it is.

12:05It's a kind of magic. I was speaking to someone recently and they said, oh, how is AI going to change your work? But I would argue that art as a technology is past AI. Technology is catching up with where the artist's ambitions want to go. Technology is actually catching up with art, not the other way around. I love that idea of putting technology in service to your ambitions and the idea of the human at the center, which is really this renaissance ideal. We've talked about the homecoming, and if I may, I'd love to go back to the home leaving and to think about leaving Virginia at such a young age and wondering what propelled you in search of this endeavor, this ambition, these ideas.

13:00So I finished high school two years early. And I, so I was 16, I was 16 years old. And I, at that time, I actually considered myself a professional artist. Right. Because you had three or four years of art making or lifetime before. Yes, I had. So when I was 14, 15, I was spending at minimum, I would say, five to eight hours a day painting in my parents' basement. Did you have artists in the family? Were you in a community of creative people? You know, I was a passionate consumer of information, books, magazines. But it was one magazine in particular that I would credit for changing my life called Art in America.

13:58Aftly. Right? Aftly called Art in America. And that magazine and looking at, you know, art ads actually haven't changed in the past, I don't know, 20, 30 years. So it's somebody's name, Richard Serra, an image of the artist's work. Show coming up. Yeah, in the address of the gallery. Very oblique or opaque if you're not a part of that word. You're like, what the hell? Who is Richard Serra? What is this weird structure? Big sculpture. Big sculpture in this address. And I had to make sense of it. So I would look at these magazines, memorize the names, look up the names, look up the galleries. And I actually started making trips to New York, independent trips to New York when I was 14 or 15 to go see these things to bring these visual realities to life.

14:50Like I wanted to see the Richard Tower. I wanted to see Franz West, Barbara Kruger, Saul LeWitt. And it was sort of at the same time as I was making these trips to New York, I started painting myself. And then after I finished high school early, my parents were like, well, now what are you going to do? You're 16 years old, you know. And you said, I'm going to Pietro Santo. Exactly. I said, I'm going to Northern Italy, of course. And I'm going to study art. Of course. Well, yeah. And so I went to Northern Italy to study art. Actually, very traditional, marble sculpting. So I had these giant, you know, piece of marble and hammer and chisel and was terrible at it, absolutely terrible.

15:41And, you know, this is an encounter that I still remember when the instructor pulled me aside and she said to me, you're absolutely an artist, but not this kind. So not David. Yes. Not Michelangelo. Exactly. Yes. Okay. Yes. And that was pretty affirming, 16, 17, 18. Yes, it was, you know, it was the first time someone claimed that space for me, you know. And I shared with this instructor pictures of the paintings that I had been making in my parents' basement. And she said, that's it. That's what you're going to do. Did you ever envision in that moment in Northern Italy, age 16, 17, that you would have that exhibition at MoMA that was so defining that would then see a record 35 of your works brought in to the collection?

16:47Yes and no. So when you're that age, of course, you remember. Hell yeah. You think everything and anything is possible. But in the same way, everything and anything also feels just out of reach, always out of reach. And I knew what I was committed to. I knew that I had the capacity, the imaginative capacity to contribute ideas, paintings, concepts of importance that could disrupt and reinterpret and reconfigure our understanding of art and life and the ways in which we experience it. To pick up on that, there's someone else who thought your potential was limitless when they met you in 2007. And I spoke to her last night.

17:48And I said, Rosalie, I'm going to interview Adam Pendleton. And what was it in 2007 when you saw him standing in front of his pastel poetry that made you realize he was someone who urgently needed to feature in your most celebrated performance arts festival in the world. Can you take us back to 2007 and that interaction with Rosalie Goldberg, which she so beautifully spoke about? Yeah. So Rosalie met me probably in 2004 or 5. I think it was either, I'd have to do the quick math. I was probably 20. Oh, wait, wait, wait. 19, but I lied to her. You lied to her. That's what I wanted to get at. I lied to her.

18:30You told her you were. I think I told her I was 23 or 24. You told her you were 26. Oh, did I? And she didn't care when she thought that. Because I said to myself, no one's going to take a 19, 20, 20, even a 21-year-old. Because I remember, you know, you would read articles about artists and it would say the young artists. And then I'd look up how old they were. They were like 35. Right, right. I was like, so that's young. What am I? You know, you are Joan Jonas' oldest friend. So that was interesting. I love this play of age. Yeah. But do tell. So you were this young artist. Yes. And, you know, Rosalie was doing, was and is doing these incredible commissions with artists who, in many instances, have never done a live work before.

19:19And she saw me. So my first art dealer was the French dealer. Here we are in France. Yvonne Lambert. Of course. The legendary. Legendary. Yeah. and I had my show of paintings at his gallery and I also did like a live poetry reading in front of those paintings and Rosalie happened to be there and she said, hey, have you ever thought about doing a live work? And we actually just started spending a lot of time together. I don't know if she recounted this to you, but... Joyfully. We would just sort of hang out together, go to openings and talk. And she would keep saying, I want to do something together.

20:06And then she would infer that I wasn't ready. And there's no way, the best way to get me to do something is to tell me I'm not ready. Then I'm like, I'll show you, I'm ready. And so I very much so got into that mode with Rosalie when she was like, okay, fine. If you're ready, do something, perform a 07. And for that, I did the revival, which at that time was the largest, most ambitious work that I had done. And then you have people like Joan Jonas enter your life. Can you tell me about how some of those relationships were forged beyond that performer moment? Yeah, so Joan and I met on a couch.

20:53Just like this one? Just like this. Where was it? Where was the couch? We were in New York. So she was also represented at that time by Yvonne Lambert. And I went to the gallery on a Saturday. And she was there. and her very Joan Jonas way. She said, hi, I'm Joan Jonas. And I said, hi. Little Joan Jonas with huge presence. With huge presence, exactly. Bravitas. And I said, I'm Adam Pendleton. She's like, what do you do? Who are you? And I think a work of mine was up in the back room. And I said, oh, that's my painting. And she said, I like that. That's nice. And she said, you know, I'm working on a performance for, and this was a performance commission she had just been commissioned to do for Dia at Beacon.

21:49And she said, and I need a musician. Do you know any? And I said, yeah, I think I know someone who you could or should work with. And I said, Jason Moran. Oh, Jason Moran. We love Jason Moran. What a brilliant choice. And I actually did not know Jason, but I had been listening to his music for several years at that point. And she said, oh, you know, who is he? And I said, oh, he's a jazz musician, but he's really reinventing the form. And coincidentally, we looked him up and he was actually performing that, literally that night or the next night at Jazz at Lincoln Center. Oh, serendipity. Serendipity.

22:33We got tickets. Joan and I went together. She loved it. And I think that next day or within that next week, she reached out to Jason and said, I want to work with you. And they've been working together for over 20 years. And that was like a beginning of a community of people. And we continue to be in touch and work together to this day. That's so amazing. That spirit of collaboration really feels like it's something that has defined your work. I know you're also curating a show of Joan's, if I'm not mistaken, in Japan. Yes. Is that right? I am. How does that feel, the curator role? You know, with Joan, it feels very organic.

23:19From the moment we met, we've had a very, I would say, both intense and easy relationship. So curating, working, collaborating with Joan is something that's very fluid for me. And I really, you know, Joan is one of the best drawers. Of course, I remember that Venice Biennale. Yeah. In the world. Of course. And I wanted to take her drawings outside of the context of installation and performance, which is where they usually reside. and really treat them almost in a more classical manner where you're asked to focus on not the kind of totality of the experience, but each individual works, line, color, surface.

24:11And so that's what this show and Tokyo will do. So Adam, I'd love to conclude by bringing this home on the topic of this series. I believe there's a home that you're currently very involved with at the moment, which is a very generous way of creating a future from fragments of the past. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about the home of Nina Simone. I love that, creating the future from fragments of the past. So I believe it was in about 2016 through Laura Hoffman, I got word that Nina Simone's childhood home was on the market for sale. And of course, anyone could buy it, right? It wasn't as though it had to be bought by someone who was going to protect and preserve this historic site.

25:03And I had this real kind of urge, like I had to do something. And I first started looking for somebody who was going to purchase the home and preserve and protect it. So I kept thinking, who is this person? And then I realized, yes, I realized that the person was me. Right. But this will help from my friends. Yes. And so I reached out to Rasheed Johnson. And I talked to my friend, Adrienne Edwards, and said to her, who else do you think might want to be involved in this? And she mentioned Julie Meridoux and Ellen Gallagher and reached out to both of them. So there was a symbolic element to this for artists joining forces to preserve and protect the home of one of the most important artists, vocalists of the 20th century.

26:11So we bought her childhood home and we ended up forming a partnership with the National Trust and Brent Legs, which was transformative because that is what they do. They save places. So we have been now for, oh my goodness, it's 10 years, isn't it? Oh my goodness, that's crazy. I just literally realized in this moment, this has been 10 years worth of work. So with the National Trust, we have, the site became designated a national treasure for one. Yes, that was like the first big milestone. and another big milestone that was also about artists gathering, getting together, Martin Puryear, Cecily Brown, Mary Weatherford, Stanley Whitney, Robert Longo, me, Rashid, Julie, I hope I'm not, Sarah Z.

27:11Please forgive me if I'm missing anyone. We did a benefit auction in New York where these artists so generously gifted works of theirs to raise funds for the house. And Venus Williams gave us some star power. Thank you, Venus. And we raised$5 million to, yes, to endow the home. And literally, I think it was about two weeks ago, I received pictures from the National Trust that the house has been almost completely restored. They're starting landscaping on the grounds. And now for, you know, at least as long as I'm alive, the place where Nina Simone was born and literally began to play piano will be preserved and protected.

28:07It's extraordinary to be in this room with the piano behind us on which Strabinski and Miesia Serre played with these carpets that were rolled up so people could dance in the 20s in an era. And it's actually really remarkable, that idea of thinking about preserving someone's home to build future possibilities. It reminds me of that proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So congratulations. That's an incredible manifestation. I'm going to leave you with one question, which I love to ask, because Gabrielle Chanel always wanted to be part of what was next. Je vais être de ce qui va arriver was her motto in terms of thinking of that avant-garde and really being at the edge and the foreground.

28:47What's next for Adam Pendleton? I'm working on another book. Oh, you are? Yes. So I have published a number of books that have been really important to my work and the perception of my work, but also of other artists. One in particular I could name is The Black Dada Reader. And I am writing a book called Black Painting, which will not be about black painters, but will be about the relationship between painting and the capacious possibility of blackness as a concept, as an idea. and will include both artists who are with us and artists who are no longer with us across, I would say, about a hundred years span of time of history.

29:46It's been an honor and a pleasure. Thank you so much, Adam. Such a pleasure. Such a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for joining us for the latest season of Chanel Connects. Now in our fifth year, there's an incredible archive of episodes to listen to featuring guests like actor Margaret Cawley, artist Julian Kruse, and musicians Grimes and G-Dragon. So do make sure to listen in. This is Chanel Connects, available to listen on Spotify, YouTube Music, and Apple Podcasts. Until next time, stay connected.