Data Centers, Elon Musk, and the New Politics of Tech, with David Weigel

21:33And this rape protection pledge, has it changed the politics? No. But you can see who it was supposed to protect. The signatories of this optional pledge are the AI companies themselves and then Republican governors, not Democratic governors. And I talked to not every Democratic governor's office, but everyone I checked with said they were never approached about signing this pledge. But your Greg Abbott's and your Marsh Blackburn, she comes in, just your Republican governors, Ron DeSantis, who was fairly early again on the worries about AI. They're all saying they all sign this and say, see, we are trying to mitigate the growth of AI.

22:11We have a pledge that if you see and part of this is about getting your electricity bill every month and looking at it and not thinking AI did this. It is to say, no, no, no, we're we're trying to mitigate this. It's actually AI companies trying to build their own power plants. You should want AI build outs to continue so that –

22:30Peter Kafka:We'll solve your electricity problem, yeah. Yeah, so we can solve it and lower the bill. Now, we're not there yet. I don't think politically this pledge has been that effective. But that is what the administration is trying to do is just redirect – put a pipe in and redirect the anger to something else because the administration is not going to slow down. The president is not going to. The president said before our podcast that people who are against building out data centers want us to stay poor. And this is really new for the president. It's the first time this president has looked at something that he thinks can enrich the country.

23:08And there are other elements to this that would lead to fight with Democrats. Like Democrats believe if you want to build this stuff out, build it with solar panels. Republicans want to build it with natural gas, et cetera. He's not done a great job navigating this. He generally looks at it and says, this is something that will help us beat China and make money. Why is anyone against this?

23:28Peter Kafka:He seems confused. And the people, again, who are in the Oval Office would be telling him this makes no sense. Can you think of any examples where there's been sort of a top-down effort from the president, big tech, or equivalents that has sort of effectively swayed public opinion against sort of what you've been describing as up-from-the-bottom politics? where you're able to say, actually, I know this is a popular sentiment, but we're going to successfully steer you into thinking something else. So greenwashing was somewhat effective. You saw this effort in what now looks like the peak of the climate movement in the 2000s, 2010s to popularize natural gas.

24:11You saw T. Boone Pickens do this with the public campaign, but a lot of people were in on this. Well, we all want to get off fossil fuels. The fossil fuel companies that you know and love are actually trying to get us off. What we need are more natural gas to transition from dirty energy to clean energy. That was, I think, effective in limiting a lot of the public worry about climate because I really – I keep in mind in covering politics, a lot of what I'm covering is advertising and is propaganda to an extent. to use a less kind word for advertising.

24:47That reminds me a bit of this, of a whole of the government at the time under Barack Obama was advocating for all the above energy. You generally saw a sales pitch for, you should be okay with having natural gas pipelines because they're part of the process to get us off of the dirty fossil fuel energy that we all dislike. You saw this in the way that settlements were used against the tobacco industry, fueled back into anti-tobacco advertising, that was fairly effective. You can do versions of this if people are convinced that something is bad for them and then smart people elsewhere are fixing it.

25:22This is unique, though, and you kind of have to repeat some of the industry's jargon or at least rhetoric if you're getting into it. Yeah, it is transformative. It is more transformative to have a robot that can tell you anything compared to one form of energy replacing a different form of energy. This is pretty new. I've asked people to embrace a future where they might not have the job they have right now. Where everyone anecdotally knows somebody who lost a job, is having a tougher time finding one. You've seen this in the economic data where the unemployment numbers are not terrible. They're what, in other conditions, you'd say people might look at the top-line unemployment numbers and say it's pretty good.

26:05but they anecdotally have so much experience of people not being hired, and they have this fear, this fuel that they go online or look in a media outlet, which is most of the time people are spending on their phones. Everything's telling them this is going to be terrible.

26:21Peter Kafka:We'll be right back with David Weigel, but first a word from a sponsor.

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27:46Peter Kafka:Let me ask you about a couple other related tech lash items. There's the flock, anti-flock movement, which again seems like it came out of nowhere in just the last few months. The company is not even that old. I understand there's general skepticism or at least a question mark in a lot of people's minds about surveillance tech. On the other hand, we seem pretty comfortable with lots of other kinds of surveillance tech. We have been in the past. Do you see this as just sort of parallel and touching the same stuff that the anti-AI sentiment touches? Or is this something different? I think this is – it's coming in from the same sources but the fear is very different.

28:31I remember writing when I worked at Reason Magazine 20 years ago about the backlash to Real ID, which took years and years to implement, much more than the government, the federal government expected when it said –

28:43Peter Kafka:It finally kicked in really last year I think. No, it finally kicked in last year. It's supposed to kick in I think at the end of the Bush years or begin the Obama years. there is a natural you can read frederick jackson turner there's a natural american reluctance to be part of a giant state that can control every aspect of its life you've seen it was very easy for example uh in in red states to get a a rebellion going to the idea of a centralized digital currency now that is not something that is affecting anybody right now but the idea of it is terrifying the government uh might might have its own currency that you would have to Why is this scarier than dollars?

29:19I've never quite figured it out. But we've seen various libertarian backlashes to the security state. So that is the elemental thing happening with anti-flock sentiment. Again, what's the average experience? You didn't used to get a ticket if, let's say, to name something I've never done. You look both ways at an intersection. The light is turning red, but it's at yellow, but you go and done it.

29:46Peter Kafka:Perhaps you crossed a double white line to shift a lane. Or that. And you didn't used to get a ticket, and now you do. You might feel some sort of nostalgia for a more aggressive policing of traffic as opposed to setting up robots, non-biased robots that are going to take pictures of your license plate and stop it for you. It does come from the I don't want a surveillance state to have this much information about me. And when the counter is, yes, but you're willing to hand it over on your phone to banks, I think you that it's worth interrogating how much people want to do that. How much people want to share that.

30:24I have thought a lot about how willing people are to show their faces, their bodies on camera all the time on social media and worry when it's done for the for a police state. But it's there. That sentiment is there. I think it is coming from the same literal part of the country. It's Silicon Valley. The flock innovation of this, of AI being networked to track what the information is coming from the cameras, it's not just little ring cameras capturing people's faces going to cops, it's something else. That's charged it. So when you meet people who are against this, politicians and voters, they very frequently bring up the ways the police can abuse this to – the example I'm thinking of is Washington Post reporting on several police officers using this – this access, this database to stalk people.

31:14Peter Kafka:To track down their – yeah, their ex-girlfriends. Now, there's a lot of information police already have access to they can use illegally to stalk people. But this hit another nerve for the average consumer who does not want to think about being part of a panopticon. So you've seen – I've lived in the UK and I've lived in places where there is a greater acceptance of cameras being everywhere. There is the libertarian objection to it, but basically the government went ahead and did it before people could build a resistance. Here, I just think the American sentiment is generally against being surveilled too much.

31:48And people are experiencing new tickets they did not used to get. And they're hearing about stories that did not used to happen. And nothing seems that positive. There's not – it's funny. You think about how many people have left journalism for PR. And you think, how bad is the PR here that they can't sell – look at the crimes that were stopped because of the panopticon.

32:06Peter Kafka:And they do try selling it. When it first popped up or when it popped up on my radar really just only a few months ago, I was like, why flock? And I kept looking for some sort of thing that people would lock onto besides sort of just a general opposition to a surveillance state. I was looking for like, is Jeff Bezos associated? Is there some bad billionaire that people – but it doesn't seem to be. I mean, it seems to be – there's the standard Silicon Valley VC firms backing it, but I don't think that would poke through. So I'm wondering, do you think this is a easier tech to sell if it's attached to a particular person or company that people know and maybe feel more comfortable at?

32:44Or does that make it even worse if this was like the Amazon tech?

32:47Peter Kafka:Exactly. So we've seen polling on this that when asked what function of data center would make them feel, how it would make them feel, when people are told it's for AI, generally, they're very negative. if they're told this is for Amazon shipping, which incorporates AI, but lead with that, it's not negative. It's 50-50 or better. People like the idea of a data center delivering them goods that they are using, even if it's for a company that I have some issues with. I really think it's a little bit crazy how we all put up with a company. We buy products from selling so many fake products and AI-created products and things that are dropshipped don't exist.

33:33But anyway, people do seem to like buying stuff from Amazon that gets delivered to their houses. And if you tell them, oh, this is for the ability of a flock to read everyone's license plates, or this is the ability of AI companies to replace your job, well then no. But you do see a difference in the polling when people are asked what the data center is going to be for. That's probably an opportunity for people trying to sell this stuff.

33:59Peter Kafka:I want to ask you about a different tech personality, or I want to ask you about another tech personality, Elon Musk. He said he's putting$100 million at least into the fall elections. This is the second or third time he's been sort of heavily involved in politics. In 2024, there was a story that the money and campaigning he was doing in Pennsylvania was effective and helped get Trump over the line. In 2025, he personally campaigned for a Wisconsin Supreme Court candidate, lost that. That was seen as a referendum against him. If he puts that money to play this fall, do you think that's effective money well spent?

34:37Peter Kafka:Do you think that becomes a liability for candidates who are getting his money? Because he's really disliked. He and Mark Zuckerberg are tremendously disliked by a big chunk of America. The Wisconsin example is the first time Democrats made it stick. But what has happened to Musk's reputation? I remember talking to John Fetterman after the 2024 election, and he thought that Musk coming into Pennsylvania and literally offering free money to vote for Trump or commit to voting, assuming you're voting for Trump, with the Philly DA was suing, Fetterman thought, well, there are a lot of young men who like Elon Musk.

35:19And if we're the anti-Elon Musk party, that's bad for us. That's less true after Musk joined the government and was part of Doge. And I do think the way people view Doge is very different depending on what information they're getting, where they live. In the greater D.C. area, it is an epithet. It is something that got your friends fired. And I think parts of the country where you depend on a lot of scientific research or jobs where you do, it was bad. For the average person who hasn't faded the background, probably it has. Musk himself has clearly, just if you pay attention to his social media, less his interviews, more his social media, he is a great replacement nativist.

35:59He's a South African who's now, who got American citizenship after a while and is always repeating.

36:07Peter Kafka:He's consumed with race. He's consumed with race. He's thinking a lot about race in both the big picture. We're at risk of becoming Zimbabwe way if we led more migrants to the puerile stuff, like joking about how Netflix is going to make a biopic of Sully where Sully's black or something. There are more examples of this in his feed. But anyway, Musk has become a more clearly right wing figure. And I'm curious how Democrats would use that against because what is the overall picture in these primaries is that there are lots of very wealthy people spending in these primaries. On the Democratic side, most of the money is coming from either George and Alexander Soros' son, or from donor trusts that don't reveal all their donors, but are funded by a series of wealthy people and heiresses.

36:56We have some sense of who these people are. On the Republican side, it's Jeff Yass, it's Elon. It's very wealthy people, I say billionaires, most of the billionaires, who can easily cut a$10 million check for a super PAC. And the difficulty for this becoming a political issue is that voters have become cynical. So running as the clean candidate who's not supported by this system of campaign financing is kind of tough. I mean, I've noticed some Republican campaigns this year are clearly benefiting from super PAC money, running ads saying they don't take corporate PAC money. So it's blurry. There's going to be this Elon influence, but how do you make it stick?

37:39Peter Kafka:I was going to ask that that's the anti-APAC sentiment, right? Which for people – where that is a real lightning rod and it's not just about money. There's a bunch of things going on there. But I'm wondering if there's a way where taking Elon's money is the same thing as taking APAC money. No, that's clearly not there yet. But how does this stuff work? The APAC story took years, I think, to penetrate to people because I started covering – well, so there's Democratic majority for Israel, which is not APAC. but has a lot of the same goals. In 2021, they start spending to defeat left-wing candidates in primaries.

38:11APEC launches its PAC end of 2021. It's very active 2024, 2026. Only this year is it toxic, and it took the war in Gaza, and it took a lot of attention to put on this. That was years and a bunch of external news events that people say, I've heard of APEC, and I don't like it. And AIPAC is also demanding something I don't like, which is tax money going to fund wars elsewhere. And if you do polling, people generally are discalculate on how much is spent on foreign policy or military funding versus anything else. But it is part. If you want zero money to go to Israel, then yeah, AIPAC is a stand-in for that.

38:52But that took a while. How does Elon become as unpopular as that? I think it would take work by people who want to toxify Elon. and Elon's reputation is not as bad with Republican independent voters as it is with Democrats. But I think it would just take some do. I'm saying it hasn't happened yet. In that Wisconsin race, it was so clear. You are seeing a lot of – the Democratic message, I should say, was you're seeing a lot of ads on your TV from this thing you've never heard of. That's Elon's thing. Elon Musk, who is trying to blow up the government, is responsible for these ads. Prove that you don't want this stuff.

39:27And it was in a race where Democrats probably had the advantage because they've gotten very good at winning off-year elections in Wisconsin. But they really made that stick. I think in this environment where there are lots of very wealthy people funding, it's going to be very relevant for Democrats. Let's say you're a Democrat running in a swing seat and your opponent is funded by – gets a$10 million assist from America PAC, Elon's PAC. their comeback will be well my opponent's supported by George Soros he's supported by the Shaded Weepacks is my opponent going to tell Democratic Super PACs with corporate money to stop funding you can introduce enough FUD and enough smoke to yes I think but it's not impossible for Elon to become one of the least popular people in America he's certainly less popular than Jeff Bezos people still see as somebody creating useful stuff When people think of Elon, they think of electric batteries and cars.

40:23They like him. When they think of Starlink, they like him. When they think of his politics, they don't like him. That's a little more complicated than where AIPAC ended up, which was this is the organization that's directing our tax money into this stupid war we don't like.

40:35Peter Kafka:We'll be right back with David Weigel, but first this. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. Stream the biggest moments in sports live on Fox 1. The biggest names, the biggest games, the biggest matchups.

41:18Peter Kafka:Watch live or catch up on your schedule. At home or on the go, never miss a moment. All on Fox 1. Stream now. Who says Halloween only lasts one day? With Wayfair, one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home. From larger-than-life yard decor and moody lighting to festive accents for every room in the house, Wayfair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place. because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night. They're made all season long. Shop Halloween decor now at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

41:59Peter Kafka:And we're back. This has been great. I want to ask you a little bit about your work and how you do it. Like I mentioned, sort of one of the things that really characterizes your work is, even though you're in an office right now, you are out and about. How much time are you spending on the road in a given year? Well, I have a nine-month-old now, so I'm not traveling as much. It's easier to not travel than it used to be. So I'll just check with campaigns. Ideally, I'd like to come out for these two days. If I can't, is this thing that he's doing being streamed or what have you? So I wanted to do a little bit more reporting last week.

42:33I didn't get there. Some of it was on C-SPAN. Great. I can do that. And also campaigns know me. This will put me on the phone with the candidate. often if I need it. But I try to travel a couple times a month. I used to travel most of a month this time before an election. After Labor Day, I'd probably not be in D.C. any weekend until the election. And now I'm with my kids on the weekend. So. All right. We're giving you that.

42:58Peter Kafka:We're giving you the newborn exception. Yeah. It's nice. People still assume I'm traveling all the time. But I really I do like to put down not roots, I should say, but put myself down in states before I start writing about them because people end up asking you what's happening in this swing state. And I don't know if I haven't been there. I'm comfortable talking about Massachusetts because I went there to cover it this cycle. And if you ask me what's up in New Hampshire, I haven't been there seven months. I'm not quite sure. So you're just saying, look, you can do some of this work remotely now.

43:28Peter Kafka:You can watch someone on C-SPAN. You can see their ad on your computer. And this maybe sounds obvious, but what do you get by being there in person that you're not getting remotely? What do you get by talking to someone that doesn't show up in a poll? That doesn't show up in a poll. You do get a sense of voter mood from talking to voters that is not going to be completely contiguous to the poll. An example where the polling matched up was every reporter had this experience in Maine. If you went to Maine, Democrats did not want to believe what the media was saying about Graham Plattner until the very end.

44:03And even then they didn't. With the candidates, you often get – not often but not all the time – somebody who might be really tough to get on the horn or you get a really kind of rote, uninteresting statement in text. You can just throw them questions at points on the trail. What do you learn about the place that you wouldn't know from not being there? You do – it's hard to find. You do get a sense of whether something is for real or not based on just driving around, talking to people, having conversations, seeing what – in some – most places, seeing if there's yard signs at all. And I've seen anecdotally, oh, this candidate, this place four years ago, there were a lot of Trump signs.

44:50Now there aren't and I'll check the results. That turned out to be not meaningless, that people felt that they were a little bit more embarrassed about showing their Trump support and look indeed. They didn't vote for Trump as heavily as they did. That happens a little bit. I'm always very cautious, though, because I don't want to ever travel just for the sake of it, just to get a dateline. I do want to get out there and say I now have learned something that was hard for me to understand before. I went to Maine. It was, are these polls for real that people who are voting for Graham Plattner do not believe anything bad about him?

45:25It was. It was basically true until the final.

45:29Peter Kafka:until it fell apart yeah yeah what is what is something that political reporters routinely sort of mistake for voter sentiment whether it's i mean you said the lawn sign example is a real one what are things where a normal person or even a savvy political reporter goes oh i i see or hear this this must mean this is happening and they're wrong hmm uh the the polling definitely and also some of the online conversation. Campaigns often want it both ways. They want to have the buzz online and they want it to transfer into coverage, but then if the buzz online is bad for them, it's not real. The media is obsessed with this, but real voters are not.

46:10And we definitely hit the point a couple years ago where we know everyone's on their phones all the time. We know that they're able to see the online discourse. We'll see something coming up in voter interviews that is maybe even totally fake, but people saw it on their phones, and therefore it actually is part of the discourse. But there can be a little bit of overrating of something that is online. And the Michigan Senate primary, I don't think it was a terrible, terrible miss for everyone in the media. Certainly polling misstated how poorly Haley Stevens was doing, but so did the internet conversation.

46:47It was true in Michigan that Haley Stevens had no shooters online, that she was made fun of everywhere she went. Everything she posted would get 50 – low-balling it, 50 furious replies, APEC tracker tweeting at her that she's a shill for Israel. And that wasn't – that was 49 percent of the electorate voted for Abdul Syed, so that wasn't all there. But I just mentioned APEC. That is an example of something that absolutely became relevant even though it only existed online. The APEC tracker Twitter account just posting how much APEC money and they kept – the definition would change. APEC money could mean from APEC itself, from APEC's organizations, from donors depending on who the candidate was.

47:37That really did matter. I was finding candidates in Democratic primaries say that it was very tough for them to get past the idea they were funded by APAC. Mallory McMorrow, to stick to Michigan, in their final data, a significant number of Democratic voters thought she was funded by APAC and she never was. But what they traced that to was that the APAC tracker Twitter account accused her of being pro-Israel because she sent a document to APAC itself. And that mattered.

48:06Peter Kafka:This idea that a lot of us, I'm saying us, including me, I think felt comfortable with for a long time, which is, well, there's stuff happening online, but it's not real. And it only tells you what a small fraction of extremely online people are thinking about. And maybe it influences some small number of people, but it's not real. Twitter isn't real, right, was the shorthand for it. It sounds like what you're saying is kind of is real now. It is in terms of influencing how people actually think. Yes, because of just the reality that we're on our phones a lot. Right, but you could be on your phone and never look at Twitter.

48:43Peter Kafka:Most people statistically don't, right? Twitter as the driver of everything, no. I've had to – luckily for me as a reporter, I'm on it a lot and have followers and I find things on there. I'm less good at finding TikToks just because I'm not native to it or other websites. I remember talking to a Trump voter in 2024 who had gotten into Trump from iFunny, which is a meme website, and I didn't know what it was. And I always feel – I like when voters tell me about some media form that I'd never heard of before, but I felt embarrassed. I should know what that is, right? So, yes, some of this is – a thing that is blowing up on TikTok can be incredibly relevant even if people in the campaigns think it is not.

49:27How do you trace that? Sometimes you have the internal polling. it comes up the doors sometimes so any campaign that's active in grassroots, not just grassroots campaigns that pay volunteers too but they'll have people coming back from the doors and saying we got a lot of door slams because they all think this can't, I'm sticking to AIPAC because it's a clear example, they all think our candidate is funded by AIPAC or they all heard about how he bad mouthed Obama or something that does come up more, things that are in the quote unquote paper they need to be in some other form of media for everyone to become aware of them.

50:04And I'm in media and I've just been aware of this for years, how people who even consider themselves informed, well-read, et cetera, are getting that from podcasts and from memes and from posts, not from the media.

50:20Peter Kafka:I'm trying to do my best to say I saw it on TikTok instead of I read an article, if I really saw it on TikTok. One last question for you in the form of a projection, then I'll let you go. So circling all the way back to the tech stuff we were talking at the top, do you see – do you imagine that people are going to win or lose an election this fall based on a data center stance? Yeah, I think a couple people will lose and it will be traceable to correct or incorrect the impression that they want to build a data center locally. I can see there are people who need to smack that down before it takes hold.

50:59Peter Kafka:You want to throw out a couple of names? Well, John Husted in Ohio has been trying to fight back on this. This has been the test. He's been a test of the Trump administration's pledge I was talking about. Do people believe that a Republican who is pro-Trump is like Trump going to put controls on data centers? They might not right now. And then in Wisconsin, David Crowley, the Democratic nominee for governor. Again, he's taken the labor-friendly, business-friendly approach to data centers, which was uncontroversial two years ago, is controversial now, which is that we're not going to stop. He does not want a moratorium on them not to stop building them right now.

51:38They can be built with conditions. If a community wants it to come to get built, they can build it there. I mean, part of the whole story here is the veneration of the town meeting, which anyone who's covered super local politics will tell you. Is the town meeting that a bunch of people who never want anything to be built in their community really the best form of democracy or not? Well, it is for now. So I feel that David Crowley in Wisconsin and John Husted in Ohio are going to test how much single-issue voters just move on data centers. I do think some of this has been based on good media interviews with voters, but that could overstate how much anger is out there.

52:20But then I look at the polling and I can see people saying, I don't care about midterm elections. This candidate I heard is going to stop data centers. I'm for that. I think that will be significant in a few races.

52:31Peter Kafka:OK, we will watch it. David Weigel from Senate Four, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thanks again to Dave Weigel. Great to talk to him. Thanks to Charlotte Silver, who produces and edits the show. Thanks to our sponsors who bring this show to you for free. Thanks to you guys for listening. See you soon.

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