Joanna Stern on the New Siri, OpenAI’s Weird Gadget, and Life After the Wall Street Journal

20:13Peter Kafka:and they all have the same like this removes you from the phone but all of these devices don't get rid of the phone you still end up having a phone the phone can do i think all the things the smart speaker can do so i'm a little stuck on it and part of me just thinks oh they're they The folks behind this stuff have way over indexed on the screen, anti screen backlash that they think that we're all dying to get rid of our screens and actually can take a flight, get on the subway, stand in a line. People fucking love their screens. That's what they want to do. They want to spend their time. They're not wishing they were freed from their screen.

20:51Well, there was this moment in the Greg Brockman interview, by the way, and you can see it on YouTube, where somebody brings him a laptop because he's going to do a demo on the new voice interface and the voice communications on the Mac. And he sort of seems disgusted at the laptop. He's like, just these devices are like so annoying, right? Right. And as someone who loves laptops, you know, I probably should have asked a little bit more about why he hates his laptop. But I kind of saw where he was going there, which is like, why do we need to have this big thing that I just want to do a demo of some voice thing for you?

21:25Right. And I think that that kind of hints that, OK, maybe this donut thing will connect to your all your chat GPT apps. You'll have it from your desktop or your laptop plus your phone. And you'll be able to say to it, hey, go make me that memo or go make me that presentation on my phone or I'm sorry, my laptop. And I think that might be kind of that like idea that you're like freeing yourself from your screens, but you're going to come back to your screens.

21:51Peter Kafka:Yeah. By buying another device. I don't know. I'm not sold. Yeah. It's the fun thing about writing about gadgets. We get to see how it works out. Are you more sold on glasses? Glasses, I am much more interested in because I am, as I get older, wearing glasses more often. So if you're going to make my glasses have use, great. I still don't know anyone who wears any of the meta Ray-Bans who doesn't work for meta or isn't deeply, deeply into tech. And the meta Ray-Bans are cool. I've tried the ones that exist and the ones you can't play with yet. And I keep trying to imagine what I want to do is get rid of it.

22:27Peter Kafka:I want to get rid of a gadget. Like when the Apple Watch came out with wireless, like, I don't know, six or seven years ago, I tried to do a stunt where I, for a week, lived with just the watch instead of the phone. And Apple said, no, no, no, you can't do this. It's not going to work. It's not going to do what you want. And they were right. But the idea of like losing a gadget is appealing to me. So if I can swap out my phone for my glasses, great. But that doesn't exist yet either. Yeah. And I think the history of this kind of technology, and I talk a little bit about this in the book is that we don't usually lose the devices that came before.

23:00We didn't lose the laptop when we got the smartphone. And honestly, we didn't lose the desktop when we got the laptop, right? People just ended up buying different things.

23:09Peter Kafka:But we did lose the iPod and the Palm Pilot and the phone, right? When the iPhone came out, we got to mush those all together. But that all consolidated into one. Right, right. I'm saying. Right. So. Yeah, I don't think the phone is going to consolidate into glasses. This has been Peter's Prejudice's Corner. We'll be right back with Joanna Stern, but first this.

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25:30Peter Kafka:And we're back. One more consumer tech question for you. There is going to be a new Apple phone this fall. It will be, I guess, a foldable phone. I'm not very interested in that. But what I am interested is that Apple is going to formally roll out the new improved Siri, the Siri that was promised, the Siri they have not been able to deliver for many, many years. You can play with it now. You have played with it. And Apple's pitch is basically all the things that we said Siri should be able to do for you for years and definitely all the things we said Siri should have done for you two years ago were finally there now.

26:04Peter Kafka:Does that claim hold up? I believe that claim holds up. I have been using the Siri on this new iOS 27 beta since June. and there are still some old Siri quirks, but the capabilities of the new Siri just cause you and push you to use it so much more. You want to use it. You want to ask it certain things. And a lot of that is based on - Give me an example of what it can do. So a lot of that's based on that it can go through any of your Apple content. So if you've got information in messages, if you've got information in Safari, If you have information in your Apple Mail, I don't use Apple Mail. So that's a big kind of like X for me.

26:47But I use Apple Messages so much. And so, for instance, I could have said to it today, hey, Siri, now sadly all your listeners are hearing all their series are going off. Peter texted me about the podcast. Remind me what time it is. I don't even have to say text it. I just say, remember how my friend Peter was talking about his podcast? remind me what I have to wear to that and remind me what time we're talking. Right. I don't need to. And it could find that from the calendar or it could just go find that from messages or our communications. And there's been so many moments in the last few months where there are things that I just completely forget.

27:25I'm like, OK, there was a message about this, something about my son, something about this. And then I just ask and Siri comes up with it. And there's a link there to the message and I can go back and check the source. but I'm just like, okay, I've got that information.

27:38Peter Kafka:This was the demo from two years ago when Apple first said, we're going to have Apple intelligence. And it was, hey, I'm picking up mom, when, where, when's her flight? And what are we doing after? And it gave it all you. Then like, oh, that's something I'd want my phone to do for me. And of course it didn't happen. And now you're saying it could happen. And you feel reasonably confident because even though AI is still hallucinates, you feel like it's doing a good enough job most of the time to rely on its memory. Yeah, I haven't had any real problems with it hallucinating things like that. You know, I've run into roadblocks where it says it can't do something.

28:16And I'm like, you can do this, Siri. Go back and try. I think the big thing going into the launch for them is that this unlocks a lot. But also, I think, again, going back to that backlash about AI, one, I do not think Apple users want to feel like AI is being shoved down their throats. So yes, you can turn this off, but there's going to be a lot of people that get this and feel like, hey, I didn't ask for this. I am interested to see what the backlash is going to be towards that. And then two, there's no way right now in this new Siri to say, hey, I don't want you to look at my messages or I don't want you to look at my email.

28:52It's sort of you give it all access. And yes, Apple has built private cloud compute and all these things that they talk about how more private they are than any other AI company. But most people are not nerds and most people are not going to have that explanation, even though most people should go watch my video.

29:09Peter Kafka:Most people believe that their phone is listening to them already, even though we've demonstrated that's not true, but they all believe that. Exactly. So this is what I think Apple's up against, is that, yes, this could be a very convenient tool, but most people think Siri is pretty dumb, actually really dumb. And now you're like, oh, wait, Siri has access to all my crap? Let's see what happens. You know how we told you your computer wasn't snooping on you? Now it's explicitly snooping on you. It isn't that great. It does still strike me that this, if it works, if it works for enough people at scale, that's a really big deal.

29:45Peter Kafka:It seems like it makes your phone significantly better in a way that a fancier camera or more battery or any of the things that Apple has been trying to do to make incremental changes for years now. But this is a meaningful, a meaningful change in not just its phone, but how people use phones. Is that fair? Yep, totally. Yes. And look, they're less than when it was the iPhone 16 launch, when they launched Apple Intelligence and they said, you have to have this device. And people were upset about that, but also people were not that upset about it because Apple Intelligence turned out to suck. So now we have a lot more generations of phones that can take advantage of Apple Intelligence that will get this new Siri.

30:33And it doesn't have to be so much of an upsell coming from Apple. It can actually be, hey, some of your older devices or older devices out there still get this new Siri.

30:41Peter Kafka:Are they going to get your old phone just got a lot better? Exactly. And hey, if you buy this new foldable phone or you buy the new 18 Pro Max, whatever it's called, you're going to get even better Siri and you're going to get even better silicon that does blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I feature for you. But I think that it's also going to make this launch more successful for them is that you don't have to have the latest phone. Okay. Speaking of launches, and I forgot to say, this whole podcast I'm really just doing for my dad because when you announced you were leaving the journal, he sent me an email saying, oh, this is bad.

31:15Peter Kafka:Where is she going? And now we can give dad the answer. Is dad watching on YouTube? Is dad subscribing to new things? No. Dad is not watching on YouTube. What? No. He's so offline. My parents still get three print newspapers delivered to their house. It's a whole other world. All right. You know what? I can print out new things and send it to him. Send me his address. This is my dad would print out. He would cut out Walt Mossberg's guide to buying a personal computer and take it to Best Buy every couple of years when he did it in a personal computer. And this ties into what you're doing. So Walt Mossberg is your predecessor, basically, at the Wall Street Journal, mentored both of us.

31:55Peter Kafka:Great guy. He was incredibly important in the early days of the personal computer. He had your old job at the journal. And that job was explaining tech to a big audience of fairly sophisticated people who needed and wanted to use this technology, didn't know how to use it. And again, buying a personal computer was very complicated. Walt Mossberg made that easier. Walt did great journalism, but it also meant a lot that he was doing it at the Wall Street Journal. I think it meant hardware manufacturers were taking him seriously, but it also meant there was just a big built-in audience that weren't gadget people.

32:30Peter Kafka:but we're getting gadget advice from Walt. And I'm curious how you, so you have gone off from the Wall Street Journal to do this stuff on your own. So you don't have that built-in audience of people who aren't hardcore tech people, but still would like to hear from you. How do you think about who your audience is, how you're gonna reach them, and what it means to go from the journal to going off on your own in terms of audience? I think about it a lot, and it really informed the steps I took before leaving. So I knew that I had a pretty hardcore audience of fans that watched me on YouTube that were these early adopter in the tech world types.

33:14And honestly, that was a little different from, it wasn't different from Walt, but I think that was different from many others that worked at the journal or maybe some others that work in some traditional media spheres because I had spent a lot of time while I was at the journal working off of other platforms that I was pretty much, I mean, that was kind of the thing that gave me the real confidence to start thinking about leaving over the last two to three years at the journal was I was spending so much time thinking about the YouTube videos or the social videos and not on the column that your dad was going to read, really.

33:45And that was an afterthought a lot of times. And, you know, that's not fair to your dad. It was fine. The column stayed, I think, pretty high quality towards that. He had no complaints. Yeah, that's right. So, So but so I that was already happening to me at the journal. And so I knew that that audience, if I left, I wasn't sure. Now I'm very sure we're doing we're growing really nicely on YouTube. And those those people are finding me on on YouTube and social media. So I wasn't totally confident. Now I am really confident. Hey, I can find that audience there.

34:15Peter Kafka:The Joanna fans came with you. The Joanna fans, the people in the tech world. Yeah, you know, I'm not I'm not Marquez Brownlee or somebody that's just super, super technical. But I think, hey, there's there's this place where people want to just hear from a normal person talking about tech and they're interested in tech. I thought I could cover that. And so that's what I'm definitely building. You know, the YouTube channel where I'm hoping that we grow even more there with other types of fans and people that are interested in tech. But also that's where I wanted to put the newsletter. I thought the newsletter is going to fall on that.

34:46And also, by the way, maybe not your dad, but some folks from the journal who love reading me, I knew, hey, they would probably come and subscribe to my newsletter. They want to hear from me. They really want to know what I think about Apple devices. They want to know what I think about laptops. They want to know about the latest AI stuff. And so that was what I thought would happen. And that business is also good. The main thing with the mainstream audience was I know I still want to talk to those people because that's really important to me. And so that's why I partnered with NBC News. And that was a really big driving factor as I was leaving the journal because I didn't want to lose the mainstream audience.

35:23Peter Kafka:I want some place of where normals are going to consume me. Exactly. Exactly. And NBC turned out to be a really good partner there because they've got a really big digital audience with their website. They've got the Today Show. They've got they're building the subscription business. And so I thought, OK, here's a media company that really hits the mainstream. and keeps me in touch with what normal people want to hear about tech. Do you make stuff specifically for NBC, or is it just sort of NBC is using stuff that you're making for YouTube and everywhere else? It's a mix. It's a mix. And that's what's really interesting.

36:02Some of the stuff I'm doing for NBC, I don't necessarily think is a great match for what I'm doing on YouTube. And so we do it specifically, especially the Today Show. The Today Show has a very specific audience. They want to talk to their viewers in the mornings. about tech on certain types of topics. And I fit in really nicely there. It's actually a lot of the same kind of work I'm doing in my own -

36:24Peter Kafka:You're a mom speaking to moms. I'm a mom speaking to maybe some older moms, but I think some moms my age are watching today's show. It's very interesting. Yeah, that'll make sense. And like this discussion we're having about Siri right now, are you gonna, when you, and you've already done videos about the new Siri, but I assume you'll do it again when it formally launches. What goes into a core Joanna video about Siri that wouldn't be in the NBC presentation? Well, I think that's a perfect example about Siri, right? That presentation ended in June, and I knew we needed to hustle as fast as possible, humanly possible, to go to start testing that Siri.

37:05In fact, I ditched my Apple meetings, downloaded Siri, and me and my producer just drove. We were like, let's go test Siri on the road. Let's go, right? Because my fans knew, first of all, I was super critical of Siri for many years. There was the famous interview where I interviewed them and just said, like, why, guys, is Siri so bad? You're Apple. Like, what are you doing here? Right. So I knew that audience. And so we immediately go. We go and do that. And that went on YouTube within a week of Siri. And it did really well. Right. That audience and that video still does well. But that wasn't a fit for NBC at that time because the NBC audience is like, why are you telling us about software that we can't use yet?

37:41Exactly. So in the fall, we'll go to NBC and say, hey, Joanna's been testing this new Siri for five months, four months. She's the expert on Siri. Where are we talking about Siri? Is it Today Show want to hear about Siri? Does, I don't know, NBC News Now streaming? Should we do something for the subscription service? And so that is like a perfect example of where I see my expertise being able to fall into both of those audience buckets.

38:08Peter Kafka:We'll be right back with Joanna Stern, but first a word from a sponsor.

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40:18Peter Kafka:And we're back. One thing that we've been talking about video a lot in this conversation, I think your video expertise and the fact that you're leading with video sets you apart from a lot of folks who've gone solo. And it's not just that you're doing video. Like you said, these are produced videos. If you haven't seen a Joanna Stern video, you should see a Joanna Stern video. But you're great on it. You've been doing it for years. You're good at it. It is, no offense to people who have talking head videos because I consume a lot of those, but you're doing something different. It takes more work, more time, more money.

40:50Peter Kafka:How much goes into a Joanna Stern video? They're all going to be different, but how quickly can you make them? How much do they cost? How much time do they take? Love this question. How much effort do we take? We could spend the whole, I wish I could prepare some charts for you here. So the way I thought about the business was we can do lower quality vertical video that we can turn out really quickly, that we know brings in some audience and is what a lot of these algorithms are tuned for right now. And you'll see a lot of, we do maybe two of those a week. The goal is at least on YouTube to do one of those a week.

41:21And you see, you're seeing my new studio here. I know we're not on a video podcast, but we built this studio and I just thought, okay, in the first couple years, we'll put a lot of effort into studio short videos.

41:34Peter Kafka:Looks like there's an Emmy behind you. Exactly. We need to show the Emmy. We need to, you know. Perfect. It stars in every video. So there's that kind of quality of video that I have an amazing production assistant and she is such a good short form editor and she came right out of school. and it's specifically a short. It's not, oh, let's take a longer video and chop it up into a shorter video. This is a short video. We're making it intentionally. Yes, but we are doing that part two. So I'm going to get to that part two. And most of those short videos are shot here in my studio. We're doing some graphics on them or maybe shoot some B-roll, but those are very quick turn.

42:12You can take a day, maybe less than a day if we want to get it out really quickly. And then there's another set of videos. There's part two, which are higher quality videos. And those can take weeks, if not months to work on, because I want the reporting in those to be at the level of what it was at the Wall Street Journal. And I think we are proving that in the first couple months of this business is that I am doing the quality, not only the visual quality that I did at the journal, but the reporting quality is the same, if not better, honestly. We're trying to do two of those videos a month.

42:50That's what we're trying to do here. Some months we might have less, some months we might have more. And I could go through the list, but those all require everything from directors of photography to graphics people, editor, et cetera.

43:07Peter Kafka:So like how many hands touch one of these produced videos that takes you two weeks or so to make? I would say three to five. So it's a team of three to five. The short ones take you to and then just on the on the on the higher quality one. So I have a full time producer. He was his name is David Hall. He is what I call our head of video here because I do plan to expand as we do more. But he was my producer at the journal. And so he shoots, he edits. He's an amazing creative partner. He knows how to write. He knows we sit and we talk about every story. How do we put that story together? OK, you're going to go out and talk to this person.

43:42I'm going to talk to that person. Our production assistant comes into that. So it's really fundamentally a small newsroom picking stories and reporting on those stories. And then so he shoots, he edits. We might hire an editor. We might hire a shooter. And then we have a graphics person we might hire. There's people who come in and help with the thumbnails. I mean, there's a whole ecosystem around the amount of people that touch this video. I was just kind of trying to be conservative to say three to five.

44:05Peter Kafka:What I wanted to get was a sense of so just what it eventually what it costs you to make one of these. And if you don't want to give me a dollar amount, another way of thinking about it is, are you making enough in ad revenue when you put these things up on YouTube to clear the cost of these videos? Or is that something you hope you get to one day? The cost of every video is different. I don't want to give you a number on those, especially because I'm actually still tuning that right now. But the answer on your second question is yes. You are already making back your investment per video. Yes.

44:40Peter Kafka:What is the threshold you need? What are the number of views you need to make to get in the red on an average YouTube video? Sorry, I said get in the black. I've done this before. So this is where it's getting interesting. And I think we'll see how the business grows. But a lot of what we're doing is selling across all of the platforms right now, 360. We're working with a company called Smooth Media that sells everything from our newsletter to our short form to the YouTube channel and now eventually events. And so we kind of are packaging. And so the thing that we're really selling right now is obviously we know we have this audience.

45:18We know we have this highly invested tech audience. Joanna, me, has this proven track record of having built this audience. And so, look, when we first launched, we didn't know how many views we were going to get. There was a chance we had 5 ,000 to 10 ,000 views on a video. But, hey, that's okay because the audience is really dedicated. We know that they're really here. And that's what's happening, I think, across a lot of my peers in the tech industry or the tech journalism industry are following that playbook. I'm not at the numbers of a Marquez Brownlee or a Cleo Abram who are -

45:56Peter Kafka:You're doing hundreds of thousands of views per video. They do millions. Exactly. But hundreds of thousands of views is far more than I thought I'd be at right now. Right. So that business is starting to go up. We're able to start saying, hey, you know, in the past we might have caught we might have charged you$10 ,000 for a YouTube video. Now we can charge you more because look at the audience here. We not not only is it not only is it growing, but we see the data that the audience is exactly what you think it is. young people watching interested about tech in the industry. And so that's how that business, I think, can evolve and grow.

46:33And by the way, anyone who's listening that thinks they can help me with this, please contact me because I don't have the answers.

46:39Peter Kafka:This is the right podcast to be on if you want to reach people who want to help you improve your video podcast business. So if this doesn't work, I don't know when we got to have a big rethink. Last question. You're doing great. Things are going well. If things continue to go well, if you get bigger, is this still the Joanna show? Or at some point, do you become a network? Do you want to have Joanna Jr.'s working for you? And there's different models, right? Cleo Abram does great work. And she is the Cleo Abram show. She owns the whole thing. She's the star of all the shows. There's no network effect.

47:14Peter Kafka:Other folks deliberately go out and try to build a network. Where do you think you might go? What do you think I should do? I think you should be the Joanna Show. Really? Yeah. I think the network, I think most networks turn out to not really be networks. I think they all have one or two people at the flagship. And I think, again, this changes. But if you watch what a lot of people who've tried to build networks have done, they've gone back to going, eh, you know what? Our business is this guy or these four guys or whatever the core thing is. I think that that's right for me. I think that, though, there's an opportunity we'll see around, especially around the newsletter and being able to build some of that, that, look, you know this as well as I do, that some of the legacy tech publications have struggled.

47:59Some of the big media organizations are struggling to keep some of their best tech journalists.

48:07Peter Kafka:Maybe all of them. Maybe all of them. And it's really hard to convince some of these younger journalists to want to go work there or that they may want to go work there, but then they don't see their path being there. So like to your talk about your network effect, like I do think that that's probably the future for many journalists is to go out and do this on their own. We just we're seeing it every day. We're seeing I mean, every single top media outlet is seeing their journalists do some version of or not everyone, but many, many. And so that's going to be the model for younger journalists.

48:41If I can be a place to help those younger journalists before they want to go do that, that might be okay.

48:47Peter Kafka:So you could be the new New York Times where people go to work for you for a couple years and then go off to do their own thing. I think so. Sorry, the new Wall Street Journal. You pick your mainstream media publication. You can decide what you want to be. Yeah. Okay, good. Joanna Stern, great to see you thriving. Wishing you luck, cheering you on. I don't think you really need my cheers or offers of luck, but you're doing great. I need your cheers. And I need your listeners to come tell me how I can better improve my business model. Go help Joanna's business. I will not charge a fee for whatever services you end up buying.

49:17But please don't message me, AI slop on LinkedIn, like that you're going to 15x my revenue and all this. And my thumbnails suck. Oh, I don't know. This is like the world. Every morning I wake up to, your thumbnails really suck. You really could improve your engagement and your money, but this is losing my thumbnail service. It's like, actually, my thumbnails are fine. They're great, actually.

49:38Peter Kafka:Yeah, they don't seem humiliating like a lot of people's YouTubes. It's one of the main, my main critiques about YouTube is the fact that everyone has to look like an idiot on their thumbnail. Apparently that works. And I don't love that. All right. Joanna Stern. Thank you. Good luck. Peter, thank you for having me. Thanks again to Joanna Stern. Great to see her. Thanks to Charlotte Silver, who produces and edits this show. Thanks to our advertisers who bring this show to you for free. Thanks to you guys for listening. See you soon.

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