The World’s Cup Is Coming to Trump’s America, with Roger Bennett

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1:44Peter Kafka:From the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Channels with Peter Kafka. That's me. I'm also chief correspondent at Business Insider. We have had a very newsy couple of weeks over here in Pod Media Land. Today, we're going to move away from the most current events and focus just a bit down the road. About four months from now, when soccer's World Cup comes to the U.S. And Canada and Mexico, they're hosting it together. The last time the U.S. hosted the World Cup was 1994. The American team wore jerseys that looked like acid-washed jeans. and basically anyone who wanted to, even me, could get a World Cup ticket.

2:23Peter Kafka:This year, it's going to be very different for a bunch of reasons. Soccer has been getting more popular in the U.S. for a long time, and there's a lot more money in the game now. So good luck getting cheap seats. If you find any, let me know. Also, Donald Trump is president of the United States right now, and the United States has a difficult relationship with many countries in the world right now, which means hosting a World Cup in 2026 is going to be interesting. I have been thinking about a lot of this stuff for quite some time. I've been dying to talk about it. So here comes Roger Bennett, one of my all-time faves.

3:00Peter Kafka:He runs the Men in Blazers podcast empire. He has been on a mission to expand soccer in the U.S. for decades. Now he is getting to see a return on that investment. We talk about what the World Cup means, how you might experience it, even if you never go to a game. And what it means to be the dominant sports media outfit for a game that's still kind of niche in the US, even though Roger doesn't like hearing me say that. Oh, and Roger has a new book out too. It's called We Are the World Cup. It's great. Roger is great. Did I mention that? Here is me talking to Roger Bennett. Roger Bennett is a man I may spend more time with than any other human.

3:39Peter Kafka:Good Lord. I think that's, it's very embarrassing, but let's just say it out loud in public. He hosts and is the co-founder of the Men in Blazers podcast network, which means, I don't know, what, probably three hours a week I'm spending time with you? You know, if I'm in your ears that long, I'm sure the Surgeon General will soon be pointing out a warning, Peter. It's definitely not healthy. In addition to that, sometimes I podcast with you. Thank you for coming back on the show. We are here to talk about the World Cup, which is happening not right away, but later this spring in June. You have written a book about it.

4:12Peter Kafka:It's a history of your memories of the World Cup called We Are the World Cup. It's a great book. If you want to know that Roger and I could have crossed paths in Chicago in 1994, but didn't, this is the book for you. This is a history of your memories of the World Cup. I think a lot of Americans don't have World Cup memories because it just has not been that big a deal, except for weirdos like you and me. But the World Cup is coming here in June. What should tell us, what people should expect from hosting a World Cup. You've been to a bunch of this. Yeah, look, I think the book is many things.

4:48And part of the reason I wrote it as a personal history of past World Cups is the World Cup has become important here. Americans love a circus. They love an excuse to daytime drink, Peter, which the World Cup is a tour de force in. It's also a telling of just the power of sports in all of our biographies. We measure time. We measure our own biography through these sporting events. And for me and millions around the world, it is a World Cup. So on one level, to answer the question, you should just read the book and it will enhance your viewing pleasure of this World Cup, which is coming for 39 days this summer.

5:25But the World Cup is enormous. What is it, 200 million-ish watch the Super Bowl? 1.5 billion human beings watch the World Cup. And it's a global eclipse that sweeps the planet for the entirety that it's on. And I will say, part of the narrative of the book is how when I came to America, originally in the 90s, no one cared. In fact, they actually spoke aggressively about how much they didn't care. It was almost pathological. But around 2006 to 2010, this drumbeat began where Americans did fall in love with its through all but it's geopolitics the depth of the storytelling and i believe this world cup 2026 is going to do what 1994 when the men's world cup was last year didn't and make america

6:12Peter Kafka:a true football loving nation i mean i think at this point everyone in this country is familiar at least in passing with soccer because they played it as a kid or their kids play it right And that is a big difference between now and 1994. But in terms of being exposed to this carnival will be a will be a new experience for people. Because, again, I was I remember the World Cup in 1994. Unless you went to one of the stadiums, you kind of weren't aware it was happening. And plus, there were things like the OJ Chase and other news events that were happening. What should people expect in this country?

6:48Peter Kafka:Should they feel a World Cup is here? Or do you think they'll go about their day and not know unless they're watching television? Oh, you are going to know. You are going to know. It's going to be impossible to avoid. Just shut your eyes and think for a moment. About Kansas City, for instance, where Argentina are going to play games, where the Netherlands are going to play games. Kansas City, that jewel box of a town, number one, is going to be announcing itself to the world, which I'll get back to in a moment. in the same way as Atlanta did when it hosted the Olympics and really put Atlanta on the map as a global epicenter.

7:24But Kansas City is going to have Lionel Messi, please God, in Argentina there. They're going to have the Dutch there. You're going to see, you know, before games, 20, 30 ,000 Dutch fans clad in their orange, marching down the major boulevard of Kansas City. They do a dance to the links, to the wrecks, and they bounce down the street, down the game, thousands and thousands of them. It is cacophonous. It is a bullion. It is utterly joyous. Argentina, they normally bring a couple of thousands of pounds worth of asado to barbecue during the tournament in which they intend to go deep. Argentina meeting the Kansas City tradition of barbecue.

8:04I do believe, or I like to believe, Peter, that in like four generations' time, millions of Argentinians will be like, When did burnt ends become the national dish of Argentina? And they'll say, we can't remember where they came from, but my God, they are good. They come from Oklahoma Jews. That's where they came from. And so you're going to have the world meeting America, America interfacing the world. And right now, it's a time of chaos, a time of fear. For 39 days, there's going to be global connectivity, global ebullience. The world will stop. Everybody will be looking at L.A., Atlanta, Philadelphia, New York, and more, Houston, Dallas, Mexico, Canada.

8:48Peter Kafka:Yeah, we should note, it's being hosted by the U.S. and Mexico and Canada. We could talk about the complexity of that in a minute or two. But the whole eyes will be on it. And that sense of connectivity spiritually, globally, happily for 39 days in its own right will be just such a joy. So in 1994, when I barely had email and again, soccer was really pretty niche. My friends and I were able to secure tickets to Greece versus Bulgaria in Chicago. And we got my friend Subaru and drove from Minneapolis and learned what a fan belt was when our fan belt broke. And we went. And the point is, I assumed I'd be able to get tickets this year for the World Cup without much problem.

9:29Peter Kafka:So far, it looks like they are impossible to get. And if you can get them, they cost a mortgage payment or two. Do you expect that to hold all the way through the games? Or do you think those ticket prices maybe are not real and they'll come down and more people will actually be able to attend the games than it appears right now? You can get a ticket market expert who can give you a more accurate read. This is a moment where global football culture meets American sporting culture. It's always fascinated me. And by the way, 1994 World Cup, I lived in Chicago and I went to the very first game of the World Cup.

10:04I didn't have tickets, couldn't afford a ticket to be candid back then. It was Germany against Bolivia at Soldier Field. I went just to create a crowd scene. I wanted to be an extra in the World Cup movie in cases everyone feared no one would go to the World Cup. There was a poll that came out three weeks before the World Cup that happily trumpeted that 0 % of Americans cared about the tournament. No one was going to go. It was going to be a disaster. Of course, it's still to this day the best attended World Cup ever. But such a relief, by the way, to turn up and just see everyday Americans, everybody pouring into Soldier Field to watch this thing.

10:40And look, American sports culture is very different than football culture, which is traditionally working class. And the fans of the team travel everywhere with that team and the game is accessible. You speak to American owners of some of the Premier League teams and they'll be like, You know, we raised ticket prices by seven pounds. That's all. And the fans walked out. It was terrible. And they all know that in America, they charge 10 times what they charge for the Premier League. And they're getting to understand football culture. Here in America, if you want to go to MSG and watch the Knicks, you know exactly what you're going to be paying.

11:17And the ticket prices for the World Cup, let's just say are in line with American appetite, far more than they are within the European appetite. and that's really the culture clash that we're seeing right now. It is fascinating. But one of the storylines of the book, and I'm saying this neutrally, I'm American, I may sound English to your listeners, but I love this nation more than Kenny Powers loves this nation, is the Americanization of football. The Premier League, which when I came here, again, early 90s, I would go and watch games in a bar with 10 expats, no Americans in there at all. No one cared.

11:50Now the majority of Premier League teams are owned by American investors, which is in a remarkable moment. And so that transformation, almost the Americanization of football, soccer, is what we're kind of living and seeing in these ticket prices.

12:04Peter Kafka:So what you're telling me is, yes, if you want to see a soccer, if you want to see a World Cup game this summer, it's going to be multiple mortgage payments. If you don't want to pay that in person, but you want to get the World Cup experience this summer, what's the best way to do that? Do you watch it on TV because it's a great experience? Do you go somewhere to watch it on TV? Do you go do what Roger did in 1994 and hang around the stadium and see what happens? All of the above is the honest truth. Look, one of the greatest World Cup memories in the modern period was when Germany hosted the World Cup in 2006.

12:38And in doing so, so joyfully, so efficiently, in such an organized manner, they invented the fan zone where up to a million fans could come in Berlin and watch together on giant televisions. You know, they essentially, the Germans invented the act of throwing beers in the air en masse for every single goal. Try it, makes life so much more bearable. And so the joy of a World Cup is really culturally, you know, the moments on the field are utterly transcendent. Lionel Messi winning the World Cup finally in 2022. too. I don't like to be hyperbolic, but it was. It was like watching the end of the Odyssey, an epic Greek poem, live out in real time by a little man with a super haircut haircut and wearing cleats.

13:24But the joy of a World Cup, a real World Cup, happens off the field.

13:30Peter Kafka:Pick a city I should go to if I don't have a ticket, but want to get the vibe. Seattle. Who's going to play? The US are going to play their second game there. And there will be a beautiful, beautiful vibe at the fish market before that game. It's going to be a march to the match for both the home team and the away team. Thousands of American fans will walk down to the stadium behind some Seattle notable. I'd put my money if I was a betting man. I'm sure Polly Market have a market for, I'm sure it'll be Ken Griffey Jr. And it's going to be utterly ebullient. It's going to be liberating. It's going to be there's going to be a total feeling of freedom and abandon and the kind of patriotism which we've seen glimmers of in the World Cup, which is just utterly positive, constructive and sizzlingly wonderful.

14:20Peter Kafka:So let's talk about patriotism and other variants of national feelings. We've talked about this before. World Cups are inherently political when England plays Germany or England plays Argentina or England plays anyone. A lot of history. A lot of history or the U.S. plays Iran. Now the U.S. is hosting the World Cup. The White House is occupied by people who believe in a policy of America first, are outright belligerent towards countries that used to be our allies, are belligerent towards the countries we're bordering and co-hosting the World Cup with, Canada and Mexico, are telling people that, yes, the Department of Homeland Security will have agents outside the stadiums.

15:00Peter Kafka:How do you think all that is going to play with world audiences, with visitors who come to the US? I mean, do you think that this is going to dissuade anyone from coming to the US to watch the World Cup? I can answer that in many ways. The beauty of the game of football I've dedicated my life to, and I will say the rise of the audience in the United States. Earlier, you kind of hinted the audience was minimal here. It's enormous. It's young. The audience is a Premier League audience, of champions he got. It's an enormous Hispanic audience. We have a whole platform, VAMOS, at the Men in Blazer Media Network, speaking to this young, passionate, enormous Hispanic audience.

15:37The women's football audience, one of the joys of my lifetime is seeing the women's league and the women's audience grow at a really transcendent pace. So the audience here is massive. And one of the things I think that has attracted Americans to it is that when the nations take the field, Their nation's histories, politics, cultures take the field alongside them. That's the depth of this World Cup. It's what Walt Whitman said. You know, it contains multitudes. Walt Whitman would have been proper football, Peter. And so that's the joy of the thing. The other joy is always, oh, I thought it was a joy, that football is a mirror to our society, the society that surrounds it.

16:19It reflects us back to ourselves. And that's what the World Cup does in this moment. It shows us who we are. By 2030, we just released a study of the American football fan base in the United States. One of the things that most energizes me is that football by 2030 will be the perfect reflection of the American demography, the ethnicity, the diversity, the wonder. But it is a mirror to the society that surrounds it. And it always is. And the one thing that I draw strength from, Peter, is that every single World Cup running into it in the modern period, there's a pattern of darkness in the run up to it.

16:58You know, we can go back to South Africa 2010, which was, again, one of the most remarkable feats. First time Africa had ever hosted a World Cup. It was Mandela's South Africa announcing itself to the world. In the run up to that, there were constant calls that it should be taken away from South Africa. The electricity grid wasn't sustainable for this many people. Everyone, the violence in that nation, carjackings alone were going to make this a fearful, hysterical, dreadful disaster right until the very football. The same with Russia, 2018. Ultimately, football was...

17:36Peter Kafka:By the way, correct to be concerned about holding a World Cup in Russia in 2018. Yeah, 2004. By the way, that was like going into Gilead. When you went in there, they polished that place up. It was one of the great propaganda coups of all time. 2014, Brazil, the social unrest the year before. I mean, there were riots around the stadia when they were preparing for the tournament. As soon as football kicks off in places good, South Africa, Brazil, God, that was one of the greatest sporting achievements I've ever witnessed with my own eyes. Places dark, Russia. It doesn't matter where it is. the moment the ball is kicked off, all of that fear evaporates.

18:18South Africa was one of the most joyous World Cups I've ever been to. Brazil, one of the most magical and magnetic. Russia in darker ways, for reasons I've already explained. Once that ball kicks off, all the fear, all the darkness, none of the doomsaying comes through. Ultimately, it's the power of sports. So I've seen this many, many times, the predictions of doom. Everyone will come.

18:42Peter Kafka:The predictions of doom. There's also just uneasiness. I mean, you did you did a whole series about Qatar, which hosted the last World Cup and how deeply corrupt it was that that was assigned there and and all of the gross and probably illegal happenings that happened to make it. And I remember you would say this is a real sort of tension as a consumer and fan of this. Like, do you even celebrate something that's happening in a country like Qatar where you have limited rights? And I'm wondering if people are going to feel the same way about the U.S. When they say, I love the sport, but I don't know if I can support something that's happening in a country that's actively belligerent towards the rest of the world.

19:22Peter Kafka:Sounds like you're saying, yeah, everyone's going to go for it once the game starts. Sport is always the same. It ends with cognitive dissonance one, geopolitical rationality nil. I will say it's a challenge for the American team. And we've seen that. There was a tournament last year where the United States played Panama and then Canada. And we played Panama right after there was a lot of saber rattling about the Panama Canal. they beat us they talked about the desire to beat us in that moment we played Canada in the next game obviously in the aftermath of the 51st state conjecture Canada also talked about how much they wanted to beat us they did beat us the American team which in 2014 in Brazil was one of the darlings of the world I mean their position globally that's going to be one of the most fascinating storylines at the whole tournament.

20:20We'll be right back with Roger Bennett,

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22:32Peter Kafka:Americans are not used to watching world sports where we're not the best at it. We just went through the Olympics and won all the things we're supposed to win. America is not going to win the World Cup this summer, most likely. But tell us, for people who are not like me and are not following the quest to figure out who's going to be the striker for the U.S. team, how this team actually is going to do this year. What's a reasonable expectation for the American men this summer? Let's all dream. Let's dream. I mean, we love winners in America. By the way, our women are winners. They win consistently.