In short
How the “comedy boom” has returned and evolved, driven less by Netflix and more by TikTok, video podcasts, and algorithmic discovery—while also changing what audiences expect (especially crowd work) and how comedy intersects with politics and “woke” debates.
Guest backgrounds
Jesse David Fox is a comedy expert who writes for Vulture and hosts Good One, a podcast about jokes/interviewing comedians.
Key claims
Netflix previously acted as a gatekeeper for breakout comedians; after COVID, live comedy surged, then social media turned comedians into influencers. Comedy clubs and venues increasingly book performers based on existing social followings. Crowd work became especially valuable because it’s clip-friendly and doesn’t “burn” pre-written material. Political tribalism around comedy intensified around 2020 and peaked around 2024, then eased. Algorithm dependence could shift quickly, but platforms can pivot.
Notable examples
Atsuko Okatsuka (TikTok-to-standup crossover); Matt Rife (crowd work fame and backlash); Andrew Schulz and Trump-related media appearances; Dropout/Sam Reich (clips-first model); Tony Hinchcliffe’s Netflix deal and the “Puerto Rican joke” controversy; Bob Dylan’s refusal to play hits.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Comedy Landscape Before and After the Pandemic
0:42 to 1:12
Discussion on the evolution of comedy pre- and post-pandemic.
“Back to school season can be tough on parents.”
The Comedy Landscape Before and After the Pandemic
2:58 to 4:08
Discussion on the evolution of comedy pre- and post-pandemic.
“He works at Vulture, and he produces Good One, which is an awesome comedy podcast.”
Social Media's Role in the Comedy Boom
4:08 to 6:32
Exploration of how TikTok and social media have transformed comedians' careers.
“And this is really interesting and pointing out there have been previous booms and busts since my potted history of what happened since was there was the pandemic, everything went away.”
The Impact of Crowd Work on Comedy
6:32 to 9:01
Analyzing how crowd work has become essential to comedians' success.
“did they have any idea what they were doing or they were doing what they were doing and sort of TikTok was a wave that picked them up and sort of just deposited them somewhere bigger?”
Evolving Audience Relationships in Comedy
9:01 to 11:15
Discussing the shift in audience perceptions of comedians and their work.
“I want to come back to it because I've occasionally asked comedians about this.”
Political Themes and Tribalism in Comedy
11:15 to 14:00
Examining how political divides influence comedy and audience dynamics.
“But it's less we are here for the performance or the material, which is such a radical departure from like a person like how Jerry Seinfeld's mindset, which is no one's here to see me.”
The Shift in Comedy Politics
14:00 to 14:59
Discusses the impact of Trump's election on the comedy landscape and its political implications.
“Is it because is as simple as Donald Trump was elected and it was cool to be sort of Trump curious when he was on the outside and that was kind of shocking.”
Evolving Comedy Formats
15:00 to 17:14
Explores the rise of podcasts as talk shows and their role in modern comedy.
“One, it was Trump's an outsider to where we are.”
Comedy as Exposure
17:15 to 19:08
Examines the relationship between comedians, social media, and audience expectations.
“I wouldn't necessarily call them comedians.”
Gatekeeping in Comedy
19:09 to 21:42
Discusses the challenges comedians face with traditional pathways to success in a digital age.
“I have not heard the comedy boom being over from that perspective.”
Show all 21 chapters
Crowd Work and Audience Dynamics
21:43 to 24:28
Analyzes the rise of crowd work in stand-up comedy and its implications for audience participation.
“So again, we probably talked about this five years ago.”
The Current State of Comedy
24:29 to 27:38
Reflects on the changes in comedy popularity and audience preferences post-pandemic.
“So Matt Reif is this gorgeous man, right?”
The Comedy Boom Post-COVID
28:00 to 33:47
Exploration of the resurgence of live comedy shows and comedians' growing audiences post-pandemic.
“up in their houses for two years went out and saw a show.”
The Comedy Boom Post-COVID
33:51 to 34:16
Exploration of the resurgence of live comedy shows and comedians' growing audiences post-pandemic.
“Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be.”
Debates on Wokeness and Comedy
35:08 to 42:00
Discussion on the challenges comedians face regarding wokeness and audience expectations in their performances.
“So debates about political correctness and now we call it woke or wherever the line is.”
The Evolution of Comedy and Audience Dynamics
42:00 to 48:05
Explore how comedy's relationship with audiences and platforms is changing.
“It seems to me, but maybe it's all projection that people have sort of tired of that as a thing to talk about on stage, at least.”
The Evolution of Comedy and Audience Dynamics
48:08 to 49:02
Explore how comedy's relationship with audiences and platforms is changing.
“Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be.”
Insights from Bill Burr's Interview
49:39 to 56:00
Discussion on Bill Burr's interview, focusing on his perspectives and comedic style.
“Before I let you go, let's talk about your show.”
Understanding Changing Comedy Narratives
56:00 to 56:41
Explore how personal growth influences modern comedy material.
“But like the first Bernie Trump, not Trump since, but like.”
Engaging Viewers with Video Content
56:41 to 58:01
Discuss the benefits of video in reaching larger audiences in comedy.
“So that's sort of, I think, where he is.”
Social Media Impact on Comedy
58:01 to 58:52
Learn how social media clips can enhance visibility for comedians.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:26We'll see you next time. Millions of items delivered fast. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Available in select areas.
0:35Peter Kafka:Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks. Made with whole fruit. And now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love. And one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes.
1:11Peter Kafka:From the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Channels with Peter Kafka. That is me. I'm also the chief correspondent at Business Insider. And a belated hello to the new listeners who have found the show recently. Hello. Welcome. Nice to have you here. Make yourself comfortable. and for the new folks and ones who've been here a while a reminder this thing remains 100 % free there is zero cost to you short term long term nothing there's not even a patreon but if you do want to help I'm happy to have your help you can go ahead and tell your friends co-workers relatives any sentient beings who might like this show about the show it's the best way for me to find new listeners thank you now if you have heard this show before you know I periodically have funny people on here because I like talking to funny people.
1:59Peter Kafka:They are funny. But it's also because I think the way comedy gets made and distributed and paid for tells us a lot about the way the media and tech and business landscape looks today, which is what we're explicitly talking about with today's guest. That's Jesse David Fox. He is a comedy expert. He writes about comedy for Vulture and he hosts Good One, a podcast about jokes, which you should most definitely listen to if you listen to this podcast. And the last time I talked to Jesse was just before the pandemic, when comedy was already booming, largely because of Netflix. Five years later, comedy still seems very, very strong, maybe more influential, political and culturally than ever.
2:39Peter Kafka:But a lot of the reasons why have changed, which is what I wanted to talk to Jesse about. So let's get to it. Here's me talking with Jesse David Fox.
2:50Peter Kafka:I'm here with Jesse David Fox, who has volunteered to host today's show. Welcome, Jesse. Well, welcome you. Jesse has a day job. He has several day jobs. He works at Vulture, and he produces Good One, which is an awesome comedy podcast. You should be listening to it. Maybe if you listen to my podcast, you are listening to Jesse's podcast, because I bet there's some overlap. you're saying beforehand the last time i talked to you for this podcast that one came out march 5th 2020 and nothing changed in between us and it's just been smooth sailing ever since and so really we're done with the podcast thanks for coming just listen to that one is in the exact same position it was in march 2020 if you have not heard jesse's podcast he interviews comedians uh it's a very serious show about the art and craft of being funny is the way i would put it uh again really good stuff um and i want to talk to you about that podcast but i want to start off talking and spend most of the time talking about how comedy has changed in the last few years because in my mind it's a story about tech and business and culture and politics and that's all kind of my jam yeah um when we were talking march 5th 2020 we're saying oh we're in the midst of a new comedy boom.
4:04Peter Kafka:Comedians are selling out arenas and clubs and it's all because of Netflix. And this is really interesting and pointing out there have been previous booms and busts since my potted history of what happened since was there was the pandemic, everything went away. And then as soon as people could leave their houses, it seemed like they were going to comedy shows. And comedians were sort of first out the gate doing live entertainment and people who hadn't been going to comedy shows were going to comedy shows and comedian after comedian was saying i'm doing enormous business i'm selling out bigger and bigger places um in part because people desperately want to do something after the pandemic and in part because during the pandemic everyone started watching me on tiktok and tiktok sort of kind of something seems like it became the new netflix the new thing that that would supercharge someone's career we've had comedians come in and talk about how that's basically blown their career up overnight in a positive way um i have more history but i want to hear first of all dude am i getting that part correct i think it's about right which is essentially it felt the comedy boom up until that point felt still connected to what we think of as traditional hollywood business people break through with through some gatekeepers and what we broadly would define as television and um some people of podcasts, but even still not really.
5:23And then -
5:24Peter Kafka:So Netflix replaced, sort of, it used to be if you ascended to a certain height, you got on Comedy Central or HBO, and then sort of Netflix usurped those two. And to a bigger level, and really those places were in terms of being able to break people in some cases. And then really over the last few years, social media has done to an amount of comedians that's unfathomable, made them theater acts, stadium acts. the i am regularly probably once a month shocked by a name that i've never heard of playing madison square garden where still the big the big garden not the small one yeah the full-on basketball arena madison square garden which in 2020 more comedians were playing it than ever which is basically none but still wasn't like this where it's like so as far as from a household name as a person can be, they're just selling it out, maybe multiple nights.
6:18And it's through a mixture of, again, social media, podcasting, specifically video podcasting, finding diehard fans who are coming out for these big shows.
6:28Peter Kafka:That first wave of comedians who got boosted by TikTok, did they have any idea what they were doing or they were doing what they were doing and sort of TikTok was a wave that picked them up and sort of just deposited them somewhere bigger? I'm trying to think of every single one and if any of them knew what they were doing. I just think back up. The thing that really changed everything in terms of setting this up was, I can't remember the year it started, but Comedy Central had a This Week On at the Comedy Cellar television show. And as a result, put cameras in both of the Comedy Cellars. Comedy Cellar is a famous and tiny little club in New York.
7:02Yeah. And now it's two famous tiny, but it's basically the most famous probably comic club in the world at this point. So now the cameras are in place. So they're filming everybody and they'd be like, do you want this video? And people like, sure, because all comedians need to watch themselves, listen themselves to develop material. So comedians who are really good at writing jokes, short jokes and topical jokes would have tons of material that could not be put on a special that in three years wouldn't make sense. So they just had it. Everything shuts down. They want to keep on populating their feeds with something.
7:35TikTok exists or like, I guess I'll put things on there. They would find tremendous success with either really topical short material or crowd work material. Crowd work is. Oh, so crowd work is the basic idea of a comedian talking to the audience and generating material just from improvisationally. Yeah. From whatever the conversation is, what you do for a living, that type of stuff that is broadly defined as crowd work. Usually it's not pre-written. It's mostly about whatever the interaction is. And when things started opening up, that's every every venue started having video and crowd work became really valuable to comedians because it's something composed of people.
8:19on social media that does not burn any material.
8:23Peter Kafka:Burn material meaning like pre-written material. So come see me. I'll be doing comedy like this. Yes. But not the actual jokes you're going to see. That's something. I'm going to keep that separate. Yes. And then that really snowballed and we can get into how far snowballed. But it really, there are a number of comedians who found not only was it just a way of having a feed active, but there seemingly was more interest in crowd work than any other type of comedy that a comedian can produce. And that had very positive impact on some comedians' careers and arguably really negative impact on the art of stand-up comedy.
9:03Peter Kafka:So we'll table that for a second. I want to come back to it because I've occasionally asked comedians about this. Never get us. You're the person I want to ask about this. But you kind of segued me naturally was once people sort of understood, oh, TikTok can blow up my career or blew up someone else's career. They're now getting booked five nights a week and before they weren't. Did people start creating comedy aimed at a TikTok slash social media audience, really TikTok audience? Or was it just I'm making this stuff and they're receptive to it. Great. I think the first few years it was a certain sort of club comedian again, who just sort of was naturally doing a type of comedy that worked on tiktok short clippy things or a would be broadly defined as an alternative comedian extremely broad because that term doesn't mean much now but just not a club comedian who was comfortable doing not stand-up and posting that um probably the most prominent example of that is like atsuko akatsuka who would post videos of herself dancing or her and her grandmother dancing.
10:05And those did not necessarily, so they brought her an audience on social media and she'd post some standup on it. And then those people might come out, they would see her standup and they're like, oh, it all fits into the same sort of comedic perspective. We'll come see her standup. And that was also a new thing that would happen where even in the generation right before this of social media, if you posted non-standup material, the audience did not really have much patience for a stand-up where now it seems like i'd say probably what kind of is happening is comedians are becoming influencers and all influencers have the thing that they're doing and and in many ways movie stars are influencers and the thing that movie stars are doing is starring in a movie and the influencer fan relationship is different in so much as if you follow an influencer, you are a fan of their existence and you're just you're there to support them doing their work, whatever they're doing.
11:03Peter Kafka:And if they're just smiling at you backstage for a second or doing a funny dance. Great. Yeah, it's the same. You're just supporting their creative output and which is has positive and negatives. But it's less we are here for the performance or the material, which is such a radical departure from like a person like how Jerry Seinfeld's mindset, which is no one's here to see me. They are just here for the material, which I think was always incorrect. But it's now the extreme opposite, which is like, if you're good at standup, that is like a huge bonus. But mostly people are kind of coming to be in the room with the person that they are supporting.
11:40Peter Kafka:And was there anything political about seeing comedy in sort of 2021, 2022, when you could get out and see? Because there, you know, as obviously, obviously there's, you know, So it has ascended to this sort of tribalism. I don't know how true it is, but it's definitely a discussion point. But was that something that sort of was always there? Or is that a relatively new idea that I go see so-and-so comedian because they're woke or they're anti-woke or I like their politics or I hate someone else's politics? Yeah, I mean, two things are happening. One, especially if we're starting from the point of 2020, a divide started building between the comedians who were fine performing as soon as possible and the comedians who were not only not fine performing, but were not fine with other comedians performing.
12:24So that sort of created a divide that wasn't necessarily political, but was largely political for the audience, like the comedians who knew who they're voting for in 2020. But the fact that they're performing as a sort of sometimes a nephew to the restrict COVID restrictions was a dog whistle almost in a traditional sense, which is like they're doing a thing and people would come. So that started a certain sort of divide that was already kind of bubbling up around free speech. So then now you're getting like a cohort of opinions, right? It's like free speech, but also related to sort of an anti-vax thing.
13:03And that divide fed into the natural tribalization that was happening anyway, that then really materialized in 2024, more so than I ever imagined it doing so. And in many ways, I think it has receded since 2024, because I think a lot of the comedians who were the poster boys for said tribalism are not pro-tribalism. Like some of them were like, one, they don't like people thinking they're Republican. Right. Andrew Schultz is that example where he's done a lot of press where it seemingly the main goal was like, I'm a Democrat, blah, blah, blah. I vote for Trump. But it's this other thing. And I think in general, I think 2024, there's a lot of comedians who were straddled the line that it became easy to just be like, they're one of those people that since 2024, the opposite is happening.
14:00Peter Kafka:Is it because is as simple as Donald Trump was elected and it was cool to be sort of Trump curious when he was on the outside and that was kind of shocking. And now that he's the establishment, it's just less fun. Or is it, oh, I saw now that I fully understand what electing Donald Trump means, I'm less interested in being a Donald Trump supporter. It's a lot of things. I think it's one. Yes, it's sort of they've a lot of like Andrew Schultz, I think, specifically probably would say. This is the guy, again, if you're not a deep comedy nerd, hosts the flagrant podcast had Trump on as a Trump on.
14:33Peter Kafka:And he most. So you saw him. He was in relatively early had Trump on. And then recently you're seeing a lot of Democrats go and say, oh, this is where we can go get our message out. So you'll see Pete Buttigieg there or whoever. Yeah, I mean, the takeaway of that is. Andrew Schultz was not having Trump on as an agenda is more so that the Republicans realize these spaces are really easily manipulated, but they are not exclusive in their being able to be easily manipulated. The Democrats are just all going on his show and they're all getting really easily interviewed and they come off great. But I think so.
15:06One, it was Trump's an outsider to where we are. It's a protest position against the Democratic Party establishment that comes from a lot of them are early Bernie supporters who did not like what happened in Bernie to 2016 and did not like what happened in 2020. and then related to that to not like how Biden was running again and all that stuff. And then to have Kamala just get the nomination, all that they were uncomfortable with. Two, then it's also literally what Trump was doing. They were always, they're all policy positions. They always disagreed with Trump on. So now he was not doing the things that they thought he was going to do that they wanted to do, like releasing the Epstein files.
15:49And he was doing the things that I think probably more politically savvy people assumed he was going to do. And then I think another thing that has happened is an amount of people had a certain sort of wake up call to the idea that you cannot, the Democratic Party or the liberal agenda or left-wing general cannot create a mass movement with the amount of people it currently has. And there are people who agree on a lot of things that probably could be filtered to our side of the fence than that side of the fence and i think as a result you're seeing a rise of certain figures who have always been straddlers who also like have um voice a lot of sort of left-wing perspective but maybe in a way that sounds a little bit more like the comedians of the joe rogan verse i want
16:40Peter Kafka:to circle back to politics but yeah there's so much we could talk about um but so we have this boomlet and then like you said it's a lot of it's driven by tiktok a lot of it's driven by what were called podcasts. I don't know. What do we call a podcast where you're a podcast? Currently, they're still called podcasts. But they're just talk shows. They're just talk shows. They're cheaply made talk shows. Or they're both talk shows and kind of like nothing at all. They're like fake. They're conversations you're having just to generate clips from them. They're hangouts. Yeah. But so it's like the, it's unclear.
17:13Like there are, I wouldn't necessarily call them comedians. And I haven't seen a comedian who's done this yet, like a true comedian. but um bobby anthoff or whatever her name is who does all top yeah all top she was on mark maron's wtf and kind of explained that she would do full podcast interviews just for the clips and the clips were what the content was and then her team was like oh you should release the podcast and then she was saying that like actually that was a bad idea like the clips is the medium that are working in it's that is that a podcast i have no idea i'm in that space too i don't know what i You do like one hour interviews.
17:49Yeah, I mean, I'll do upwards of two hours and people will be like, I love that episode. And they meant the four clips we put out.
17:57Peter Kafka:So the oldest model for being a comedian in the digital age was get your stuff up on the internet one way or the other. And that is essentially promoting your live show. So when you tour, people will come out and pay you money to see you. And so whether or not you're making money putting something on YouTube or whether Netflix writes you a giant check, they probably aren't. but like it's good exposure, you know, being on TikTok, you don't make no money on TikTok, but it's exposure. Is that still the trade that you are, you generate free content and hope that someone pays you to see you live? Yeah.
18:28I'm trying to think of if anyone's, I mean, obviously some podcasts make a lot of money, but yes, what they are getting is playing very, very, very large venues. And in many ways, a lot of the savviest people or people or more cynical, depending on your look at it, not only see the podcast, video podcast, clip root as a way of selling standup dates, it's also a way of selling live dates where they don't have to perform at all, but can do a live podcast, right? And in some way, in some, many of these comedians, they can sell way more tickets doing live podcast.
19:02Peter Kafka:And then it's also live podcast is them doing what we're doing. Yes. Instead of a written routine. Yeah. And then maybe they'll do like a, some sort of bit at the beginning where they dance or something and it's a bit at the end and then there's like maybe some sort of audience interaction to justify it but radio city music hall to me the great theater of america if you look at it a year's schedule will have a lot of live podcasts i hear because again i listen to these shows i'm a comedy nerd people talking about the comedy boom being over and it's now hard to sell tickets and people are canceling shows or moving from a bigger venue to a smaller one.
19:39Peter Kafka:Are you seeing that, hearing that? I have not heard the comedy boom being over from that perspective. I think there's a base on, I mean, I'm sure as time goes on, there'll be a clearer gap between the biggest and everybody else. And I think like anything, the concern will be, and this might happen this year, might happen next year, that comedy clubs are just looking to get people in the door. They do not care that they probably are doing this to some extent, which is, well, this person's a podcaster who's actually only just started doing stand-up because they're a podcaster or whatever, but they have a fan base that'll show up.
20:19Who cares? We're going to get them again.
20:21Peter Kafka:This person was famous from Barstool. They've barely done stand-up, but the Barstool fans will come see them. And then the club will decide them. And all of these things, all comedians need a sort of infrastructure to build success within the first five ten years of their career and a lot of those um a lot of that infrastructure is being broken and in replace a new infrastructure that is very much dependent on social media if you want to have if you because you believe there's a lot of things evil about social media that you think the algorithm um rewards worse comedy. So you don't want to play that game.
21:03You want to play a traditional game of like, I'm going to be as good as possible and then I'm going to be on X and that's going to get me Y. That does not really exist. Maybe one person every five years can try to do a traditional path. And there's, you know, there was a resistance to the idea of gatekeepers for a while. But like a lot of these people, their gatekeeping expertise came from the fact that they've watched a lot of comedy that they... You mean someone who's a programmer? Yeah. Or they care about comedy. They care about comedians growth. They're like they see a person there. They're not like, OK, this person's ready to have a Netflix special, but they're ready to do five minutes on my late night show.
21:41And that will then get them keep on going so that they keep on getting because it's like without those credits, without the late night set that you get six years in, it's going to be hard to book enough tour dates for you to then get
21:56Peter Kafka:better without doing without. going the TikTok route. So again, we probably talked about this five years ago. Definitely a thing where people would say, oh, all these comedians, all these young comedians are just telling jokes on Twitter now. And so they're not learning how to perform. And when they get on stage, they're not going to, and if anyone ever was like that and failed, everyone sort of reveled in it. And I'm assuming you had the same, there were the same sort of concerns or concern trolling going on about the sort of people who got supercharged by TikTok, that you've gone to playing big places too fast you're not ready for it and also your fans aren't ready for you is that true yeah i mean the difference is obviously like the clip if you're posting clips of your stand-up on tiktok and instagram etc you're doing stand-up right so it helps at least unlike twitter you are doing the performance of stand-up they're they're at first what i had heard was the audience is coming without any expectations and they're sort of open-minded to, again, just supporting a comedian they saw do their art.
23:00What I've heard since and over the last few years is more comedians, more audience members, regardless of what comedian they're coming to see, is expecting a different type of show than in the past in terms of like they're expecting more interaction. This is the crowd work
23:16Peter Kafka:that we were talking about earlier. This is what you hear some comedians complain about is when you put the crowd work up, than people come expecting crowd work. And that's not what I do. Yes. And I think most comedians before this current boom in crowd work look down upon crowd work other than the most... Because it's like an easy crutch. It's easy. Like I think... It seems like a magic trick to the audience. Yes, exactly. That's the thing where it's to the audience. And I think the appeal of it as a social media clip is how satisfying of a magic trick it is in a short time. Also, it seems impossible to an audience member where someone could be so quick on their feet.
23:55We're telling a story does not seem difficult because you're like, I tell stories all the time, right? Where in reality, like if you're a good enough stand up, the quick reaction, you know, you don't really need to say anything good. You just need to say it fast is, is a crutch. And it was kind of looked down upon for decades, let's say. And then out of nowhere, this becomes there. There's a real currency to it. and comedians who didn't do in the past are like i guess i should do it or there's comedians who did it but in a more interesting way where they're not trying to get a quick fix and then they have to make a decision of like oh should i make this worse will it pay off will they show up and will and and the thing is it hasn't gotten to a point where other than like maybe someone like Matt Reif, who became so famous for crowd work that it does seem like a present of his own
Read the full transcript
24:49Peter Kafka:making. So Matt Reif is this gorgeous man, right? Crazy cheekbones, crazy eyes. And TikTok can be like existed before TikTok, but TikTok blew up because he's a great looking guy. And the story was women, like almost entirely women would show up to look at him. And then he did crowd work. Yes. And the thing that this is where it becomes sort of interesting as a media story, which was what is in it for the audience to be crowd-worked, right? And what I had heard, I believe he's actually told this or someone was talking about what he explained when he's complaining is audience members come to a show to be crowd-worked so they could comment on the eventual clip being like, that's me, to then get attention for their own social media platforms.
25:37So then - Like that thought out.
25:40Peter Kafka:Yes. As opposed to like, I was on the ride and after the ride, they I can take they sell me a picture of myself. They're going hoping to generate content for themselves. They show up at a comedy club saying I'm going to be part of the show in a literal way. Yes, because unlike the history of comedy, the audience were not also performers or did not also have hypothetically a place for them to put their own content. And this is not everybody, but it's enough people that it could affect a show. and there are you know there's a matt rife youtube crowd work special where truly it looks like a person it's like a twilight zone episode where he's like oh my god i've now created this hellscape for myself and so that is the concern which is it's people there's too many people playing to larger venues compared to however long ago to fully say whatever juice that was called the comedy boom is gone but for my eyes and ears or whatever when i was saying there was a comedy boom when i was celebrating the comedy boom i was saying there's a sort of a rise in popularity a sort of rise in how important people are treating comedy and a rise in quality a lot of people are doing a lot of great work a lot of great comedians were being having finding audiences they might not have been able to find otherwise i will say again from my perspective um oh and also audiences were getting more savvy because they're being exposed to all those different types of comedy and i would say because so many people are now turning themselves over to algorithms yes there are there's still a certain sort of live success that is happening there are fewer and fewer what we would call traditional media success is happening no one gets tv shows no one gets movies but and the and i do think the audience is getting worse than kind of where it was 10 years ago and i do think the art form is probably as an aggregate in a worse place than it was a few years before the pandemic necessarily because of all of these things combined there just isn't a a the taste level that was being developed i think is being lost a little bit because people are going for an experience and not really to consume someone's art i mean at a more base level it would make sense to me if you said, oh, yeah, it's the boom is faded.
27:58Peter Kafka:And it's because everyone who was cooped up in their houses for two years went out and saw a show. Yeah. And they scratch that itch in the same way that you see lots of, you know, the touring musicians had a big couple of years after COVID and now are some of them are struggling. Yeah. I can also imagine it is a it's cooled just to but still way hotter than it's ever been. Like, I'm sure, you know, like anything is if it's your first time in a market in five years, you're probably going to sell better than if it's your first time in the market in one year now comedians who are playing madison square garden are playing radio city music hall because oh actually it's it's it's fewer people and same thing like radio city are playing beacon but the amount of comedians playing beacon in town hall compared to 2020 is still wild like it truly is as a i just i don't know what it is that it is a obsession of mine of just looking at the lineup of those theaters and being like, wow, these are so many comedians who I thought were just like another club act.
28:56And again, like in 2000, they're like at the beginning of the boom, I say it was 2009, which is kind of when podcasting really, traditional podcasting started, traditional podcasting. You could count theater acts on a hand. Everyone knew the names. They all go, the only people who were playing theaters are like Chris Rock, Brian Regan, Jim Gaffigan, Seinfeld, and maybe that's kind of the end of the list. um the blue collar guys maybe and now it's like as he said i am a person who watches more stand-up specials than probably anyone else there is because i watch all the ones that are on youtube which we can talk about how many stand-up specials there are on youtube and regularly i am shocked by people who i've never heard of who are like they've been doing comedy for 12 years and now they're playing whatever venue and i'm like how who how where what what is this happening is there any
29:47Peter Kafka:sense of like if this is all because tiktok has blown us up or primarily tiktok's the driver then we are dependent on the algorithm the algorithm can turn tomorrow and it could turn off comedy yeah i mean the or turn off my comedy yeah i mean i asked the i don't know if you want to get into the story i report about dropout did you do have you done i had the dropout guy on before sam reichon yes yeah i was gonna say robert righteous son yes yes as he's known robert Well, at this point, he's had enough success that he is Sam Raid. Actually, people love that show. Yeah, he is really good at talking about this because he's existed.
30:25He's almost exactly my age, and he's existed through all these eras of media. And I was asking him. Dropout is a, sorry, I'm not annotating. Oh, yeah, explain what Dropout is. It is.
30:33Peter Kafka:I understand it. It's improv-based, sort of gamey, very nerdy. Yeah. People who like D &D, there's a big crossover there. And it's a show that came out of College Humor. Yeah. And CollegeHumor basically owned by IAC and basically said, we literally can't do anything with this. Please take it off our hands. And it has thrived. Yeah. It now has a million subscribers. And they found an audience because the pandemic happened right when essentially they were independent and unable to do certain things. Sam Reich, an early adopter, was just sort of experimenting with TikTok. And he'd post whatever. Then he'd post a clip from one of their shows.
31:08And people would be like, this is doing really well. And people are like, what is this? where's this from and then he posts more and more and it kept on doing all doing really well and then they started posting from all the shows and then everything has been built out of a streaming service that spends almost no money on marketing that has again reached a million subscribers paying six or seven dollars a month um built on social media clips they engineer shows around what could work as a show but also is made up of 10 clips um so if you watch the show it doesn't watch like clips but they really work as clips and i go aren't you worried your entire business model is dependent on algorithms to like the nature of how you produce content and he had a couple reasons why he wasn't worried which is one it's like well we're already at this point that we can just pivot to regular marketing and be fine but the other thing he says like rarely has there been a time where there are three companies all doing the same thing and they all are competing for differentiation tiktok instagram and youtube so it's like right now they really are crushing it on all three if one change they have the other you know like they can adapt because they have and and so most likely overnight they're not all going to be like we don't like comedy anymore because the thing about comedy and why it's a fascinating thing to cover and why it makes sense of this is that because it is the cheapest to produce art form in my opinion it is first to
32:38Peter Kafka:whatever is a new medium we used to say about porn yeah right you can always tell what tech is going to take over when porn does it but i guess comedy is right after yeah i think in many ways porn is probably higher to produce in some ways and also is so uh captivating to people that it could lead the way in terms of technology where comedy is whenever new technology exists they're the first ones there so that's no no comedy is inventing a new technology and then everyone else is following it's more that like there's a new technology there's a new platform and comedians are so desperate for any sort of attention so they'll just be like we'll do that and then some will work and then and then so that's where we're at where it's like who knows all these companies could stop being algorithmic i mean like that would change everything but right now that seems i there is a lot of things i'm frustrated about it creatively but undeniably, it is able to find a person, an audience that they just would not be able to find otherwise.
33:38Peter Kafka:We'll be right back with Jesse David Fox, but first, a word from a sponsor.
33:47Peter Kafka:This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes. When you're 7-Eleven's hottest fire chicken sandwich, people think you're intense. Well, yeah, I'm hot! So, yeah, intense. Want to see if you can handle the heat? Then try me.
34:27With pickles or spicy mayo and jalapenos. Oh, and it's all just$4.99. That's a deal almost as hot as I am. Almost? Sweet? No. Spicy? See for yourself. $4.99 and only at 7-Eleven. Follow up through 825-26. Participating stores only while supplies last. Visit store for full terms.
34:46Peter Kafka:Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Croc store today.
35:19Peter Kafka:So debates about political correctness and now we call it woke or wherever the line is. It's old as comedy. We talked about it last time. That example, we were talking about Matt Reif, the sort of TikTok comedian who puts out a special, has a joke about domestic abuse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right at the top. Right at the top. And immediately gets backlash to it, you know, partly on ideological reasons, partly just seems like it's not good comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the next thing I see, he's like doing Jordan Peterson interviews, talking about how he's been canceled and he's part of the woke mob.
35:53And I thought, I guess that must have happened before the election.
35:56Peter Kafka:I'm like, this has got to be a high watermark for sort of using anti-woke as your calling card. Or if you if you fail in some way, it's because of what is there were obviously things that were real where people got canceled for tweets or Shane Gillis, who's now one of the biggest comedians in the world, was kicked off Saturday night before he even started because of old tweets. So that stuff did happen. But where are we in terms of the woke wars now? Yeah, I mean, I think Matt Reif is a good example. That was the beginning of that year, right, of that. And to me, I mean, like, that was so transparently an attempt to— Because he didn't—in this part of that, he was not an anti-woke guy.
36:41He was just a guy doing comedy. He probably personally was, like, maybe in his soul. But he wasn't really doing that. It wasn't his act. It wasn't his act, because, again, a lot of his act was just sort of crowd work that was maybe lightly transgressive. transgressive but again a lot of his audience were young women and so it was a lot of dating stuff whatever and he again seemingly resented to his fan base was and or just thought well if i have all these female fans what what male fans can i get what type of comedy do you do to do it and it was a to me a clearly transparent attempt to cater specifically that audience because he wasn't gonna be i have this audience i want a different audience i want to expand my audience i'm gonna get many yeah and maybe i'll lose some of these women but i don't care because i don't want that audience i don't respect this female audience as much as this male whatever i want to be like my heroes but he does realize like well i'm not going to succeed by being really great at stand-up like he's not gonna be like bill burr who's like well if i'm so great i'll just build a fan base because organically people will like it it's like i have to essentially pitch myself to a it's an influencer's idea of fan base building which is like okay well i have this sort of crew of people who support me now we need new people to support me not new fans like i think fan is a almost like a dated idea it's like more like supporters followers people who they see me and go i i'm i've i want this person to succeed because he is now fighting a fight that i can't fight because i okay so it's
38:11Peter Kafka:Like someone who subscribes to the New Yorker so they can show off the tour or gives money to NPR. They like the programming, but they like what NPR is standing for. Yes. Right. And they they literally are supporting it. Right. And they believe it's a public good for there to be NPR to exist. And in many ways, I think a lot of people who have a fan base, it is like I think it's a good. I mean, like Dropout's a great example where it's like I have reporting the story, interact with people who are like, I'm a Dropout fan. and pay for a subscription, but mostly just consume the TikTok and Instagram.
38:43Peter Kafka:It seems like that is ultimately less good as a performer to have those people in your corner that because they support anything you do, they don't challenge you, you can't really expand your, this is just me guessing, but the last Joe Rogan special that came out, I think after the election, and I can't tell you that I've consumed a lot of Joe Rogan's standup, but watching this, I'm like, oh, he's stopped doing standup. He's now just standing in front of a crowd who's cheering for him and telling jokes is secondary. And by the way, maybe he's totally happy with that, but it seems like that's you, once you have people interacting with you that way, you're not, you're not doing the thing you were before.
39:19Peter Kafka:Yeah. I mean, it, it happened to all, it always happened to comedians when they got famous. It just was almost no one was famous. Right. So then it is only a select few comedians that had to figure out how to deal with the fact that their audience was being too easy on them. now so many comedians that are not famous at all in what we think of as fame as old people have that type of fan base every show they're at people that are so excited for them to be doing stand-up at all people who just want to be laughing with them which is fine like that's part of what the the job is the what they need to do which is like what i always do chris rock when he really was trying to be the best comedian that really has ever lived did was like, how can I put myself in positions where I'm not going to do well?
40:07How can I bomb to get a real baseline of actually how good my material is? And to do that, it's hard. And not many people have the temerity, or if that's the right word, to do that. I think most people are like... The tolerance for having... Yeah, they're like, oh cool, I'll go up to the comedy store and maybe they'll give me some sense. But for the most part, I'm playing in front of my fans. I don't want to get kicked in the teeth.
40:30Peter Kafka:I had to do that initially and now I'm past that. Yeah, in many ways, I think like the first few years of doing stand-up is traumatic and people will do anything to avoid that. Oh, you have a fan base. They like what you're doing already. Your comedy is for your fans. Like, I think that completely makes sense. So it's like, it's not for specifically just me, right? Like, there's only so many people who even care. I just saw Bob Dylan play and he famously, I knew what I was getting into, but it's still amazing. He just refuses to play a hit. If he does play a hit, he plays it in incomprehensible form.
41:03Peter Kafka:And this was at an outdoor venue. He made sure the video screens were turned off. And then there was almost no stage lighting. So if he was on stage, I couldn't tell. And I was like, this kind of sucks for me, the audience member. But I get why he would want to do it. Yeah. And he can do it. And he can. Right. And it's just weird to think about how so many people can. like bob dylan i think you could argue if anyone has earned the right to kind of be putting out bad shows at this point in his career considering that he's still putting out good hours just shows that interest him yeah yeah right it's indulgent but also it's a trade-off which is like you get to see me you can be the same room as me before i die and exchange i kind of get to do what i like to do which is tour and play music which i get i used to be in bands and like i liked having band practice i didn't like playing shows so it all makes sense and but the benefit he has his music is written by yourself so he puts out this last album i thought was masterful in terms of like these big long opuses of whatever comedy doesn't work that way you have to do you have to write in front of your audience so you're getting audiences who just are not demanding of you and so it it gets it's up to you to decide how demanding of yourself you're going to be and everyone's going to have different levels of that.
42:22Peter Kafka:And I asked you about wokeness. It seems to me, but maybe it's all projection that people have sort of tired of that as a thing to talk about on stage, at least. Normal people will talk about it. They'll tell me, oh, I really think Bill Maher's got it right. You should be in the middle. And they really believe it. But it seems like talking about it on, like I just, you had Marc Maron on, I was watching a special, at least the parts that I saw where he's talking about it like kind of seemed like a blue sky rant like well yeah i definitely i i kind of agree with most of what you're saying but it's not fun yeah i definitely think it's we got maybe a year left on it because a lot of people worked on this material i think it's changing by the year and i think truthfully a lot of people are just off twitter just by the nature of it slowly everyone has kind of been off and then so where else is this kind of conversation going to happen.
43:14I think in terms of comedy with that stuff, there was a time where unknown comedian, if something happened to them, it was front page New York Post story. Like, just because it's like comedian silenced in any capacity, it was on the front lines of things. And I do think that has cooled. But I do think every year content is just getting so more and more siloed that it just becomes too hard to have these conversations like the even even the comedian so it's like a certain sort of comedian who most likely would have been canceled if they had their special on a let's say on netflix five years ago we're putting specials out on youtube and no one knew about it even though we got millions of views because our algorithms didn't direct us to this person special and now netflix wanting to be youtube as much as possible has largely put out specials from people who had big youtube specials with material kind of comparable that has the same stuff but like the headline netflix platform blah blah comedian just is not a story anymore it's gone viral enough but also people don't even know it existed i tried writing
44:33Peter Kafka:one of those this spring, last spring, this spring, when Netflix did a deal with Tony Hinchcliffe. Sure. He was the comedian who did the, he did the Puerto Rican joke at the roast at Madison Square Garden right before, and there was a mini-controversy about that. I don't think it went away in a couple days. But it still was, you know. The Puerto Rican stuff was. But even that lost, there's like, comedian said it. It wasn't even he was a comedian. But it was a real thing, like the Republican Party had to try to distance themselves from it. Like, they thought it was a real thing. And then a few months later, Netflix did like a three person deal, a three, whatever.
45:05Peter Kafka:Yeah. A couple special deals. Did special deals with him. And I wrote a piece saying the culture's kind of changed because I called up Netflix to see what they had to say about this controversial thing. And they looked at me essentially over the phone like I was an alien. Like, what are you talking about? It's just some comedy we're putting in. Yeah, yeah. Now, clearly they have leaned into, oh, people like a certain kind of transgressive comic who's poking at woke stuff. We'll do that. But that's just them meeting the market. I don't think they're going to lose anything. I also don't even think there's a, how do I put this?
45:37It's not like no one, not like no human beings work at Netflix, but these decisions are not human decisions in so much as they're not going, they're not even saying meeting the market where it's like, oh, it seems like most people like this type of things. We need to do it. It's just like, that's a high number. Yeah. We like high numbers. We put up other, we put up some other stuff. Ted Sarandos is the CEO, co-CEO, which is a huge comedy nerd.
45:57Peter Kafka:so there's some stuff he likes. I would say of all the people that have some dog in the fight, it does seem like Ted Sarandos has an idea about comedy. But the Kill Tony thing went live on Netflix and I think partly the reason they didn't respond is one, kind of no one knew that it happened because Netflix has enough content at this point. You're not just kind of going on to watch stand-up special. It doesn't have the ability to do it. It finds its own thing. Also, that special was like unwatchably boring. so you'd have to like really invest a lot of your time to find the stuff and then it and and that's what i'm saying where it's like it's almost like we're training audiences to like like their own things so much that the things that are both contrary to their political opinions but also to their taste is like unwatchably boring that you'd have to have a specific reason where it's like a joe rogan thing where it's like joe rogan as a name goes viral so any there's people whose job it is who just are watching joe rogan to take things out of context because joe rogan has heat but like see there's like theo von for example to bring another name that you now have to explain who theo von is but theo von also has these types of guests on and also you could clip him to sound ignorant and whatever goes viral the theoban is not the politically transgressive stuff it's like when another dude goes on his show it acts like a dude right because that's what the algorithm wants from theoban it's like he is not the avatar for opinions and i do think because social media's utter dominance of peter's people's media consumption is like actually people don't have that much access to the things that they want to would previously cancel like it's hard to build momentum to things because so cancel culture would be over not because we as a society have decided we don't want to cancel people, it's because we literally were too atomized to find the people we want to cancel.
47:54I don't think we have enough control over our lives anymore to make a decision to say, I'm over cancel culture. Holy shit.
48:00Peter Kafka:We'll be right back, but first, a word from a sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit, and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love, and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes. When you're 7-Eleven's hottest fire chicken sandwich, people think you're intense. Well, yeah, I'm hot! Oh, yeah, intense.
48:42I want to see if you can handle the heat. Then try me. With pickles or spicy mayo and jalapenos. Oh, and it's all just$4.99. That's a deal almost as hot as I am. Almost? Sweets? No. Spicy? See for yourself. $4.99 and only at 7-11. Ballad through 825-26. Participating stores only while supplies last. Visit the store for full terms.
49:04Peter Kafka:Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today.
49:38Peter Kafka:And we're back. Before I let you go, let's talk about your show. I was listening to it. Thank you. Bill Burr interview. It's great. Oh, thank you. I saw you saying you think it's one of the best interviews you've done. I saw it before that. There's a, I think you mentioned it. You were talking about his friend, Bob Saget, who died. And you asked him a question about it. And he's clearly thinking. And I did the thing. I checked my phone because I thought the podcast had broken. I don't know. How long is the silence? right it's you haven't measured it i have not met did you guys discuss i mean it's probably five seconds it feels like it's 30 seconds yeah i don't know if we i have no sense if we clipped it short i assume we did not clip it shorter because it's just sort of like this is this is the one case for video because in video it's not like an audio like there is a power of a pause in audio yeah but like in video i asked that question not knowing that that mattered to him And so if you watch the video of it, I'm just there as he is.
50:41The immensity of it just comes to him. So then he is doing that thing of I don't want to cry right now. I want to honor my friend. He could just be like, I don't feel like talking about it right now. But he wanted to he wanted to share that story. And he's sort of like truly that thing of like, if you've lost somebody, if someone asks you about it out of the blue, you can't control it.
51:04Peter Kafka:The other thing that struck me about that interview was you kept asking him a couple times. You said, do you regret any jokes? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is sort of standard. I had an idea of where you might have been going, but he did not want to engage in that. He's like, well, whatever. I said whatever I said, and that's what I said. And if I'm a different person, I'm a different person now. You're not going to catch me apologizing for that work. And then every time you brought up politics or he thought you were bringing up politics, He really, really pushed back against it and insisted that, you know, he treated everyone the same, that everything's the same.
51:36Peter Kafka:And this seems to me a very standard comedian stance to take, whether they actually are doing it or not, is I don't distinguish between left and right. And my job is to make fun of all of them evenly. and I just personally find that to be incredibly unsatisfying in 2025 when the two sides are not equal and one side is shipping people off to gulags because they wrote something in the Tufts newspaper and that they should be treated differently and in my mind a comedian should recognize that and say oh the people in charge are doing the bad stuff and they deserve more crap. um two really connected questions do you think bilber really believes that and two do you did you do you have to resist the pressure to sort of lecture him the way i'm doing it right now i will say what was interesting about that that you picked up on is um i explicitly did not want to have a conversation about his politics because he's there's he talks about all the place and i I noticed in other interviews he's done recently that if you indulge him, it will take over your entire interview.
52:43And no offense to Bill Burr, I think there's other people I'd want to hear talk about politics. And so I knew he was not going to say anything that I had not heard of. And so I did not want to have that conversation. So I wrote this big, long question to provide context to the listener or watcher so that we did not have to cover the things that he already talked about. So then I could just ask him the question I do want to ask, which is what do you actually want to do in your goals? But instead, he interrupted every sentence of it. And so I mentioned the Ben Shapiro thing just for context for the listener.
53:17I did not want to get into a conversation about Ben Shapiro. He interrupted me. He talked about Ben Shapiro. That goes viral. Then he talks about another thing and then about and he interrupts me again. just because he it's a i think it's probably he has a lot of experience of people construing him one way or the other when he's really not trying to do that artistically regardless of in his sort of most recent campaign of interviews i think in his art he really does enjoy the feeling of pushing an audience in in the live setting because that is a fun experience for audiences to have when they have certain sort of expectations and he did do that for years he now is an extremely famous comedian and everything he's doing is being filmed and then i think a lot of problems with that approach when you're then filming it it makes it sort of unclear what you're trying to communicate as which is why i was trying to ask him I think in his like recent slate of like interviews, he has a clear agenda that it's it's one of those things where.
54:36he just if you combine all the things he said as a political perspective you're like well that sounds like the american left way and other than small online social issues that are actually not political right it's like some free speech stuff um made fun of women's basketball yeah yeah like but like some feelings about the first wave of me too which again is now like we're talking about a thing eight years ago and not really salient politically so he just has an opinion that is been embraced by the left because he's mirroring their opinions there's two things one he has a sort of comedians i don't want to be a member of any anyone that would want to have me as a member that he's like he can't accept that sort of love but i think he also does not like online tribalism that is unavoidable he's old enough that he knows what it felt like when that wasn't the case now he has not done the research to know why it currently is the case so he is apprehensive towards that he's like i don't want to be defined and i don't want to be sorted now he has can't control over how he's being sorted and that must feel bad but like it is interesting to see a person become sorted differently than they were sorted before because i think in many ways the algorithm sorted him towards the end in the sort of joe rogan yeah we would have called him part of the manosphere yes right and then just the word manosphere happened at the exact time that he was now being sorted this other way it helped that he had a lot of personal growth his material his standard material is a lot less about hating women um even when he was doing it is all couched in terms of personal growth but like if you wanted to read into it you could read into it and now he does that a lot less and again he's talking about billionaires a lot and like Like it sounds like, but again, he's the example of, I don't think he was a Bernie Trump voter, but he's like the type of person that we never felt existed.
56:34But like the first Bernie Trump, not Trump since, but like. So that's sort of, I think, where he is. I think he has a lot of a lot of things that feel uncomfortable to him.
56:47Peter Kafka:Thank you for that answer. No problem. Last question. Sure. And maybe you don't want to engage in this question. Try to convince me to put video in my turn. make myself a video show. I understand why you do it. You have professional entertainers, many of whom are famous. Yes. Of course that should be on video. And I'll have some of them and I'll have CEOs that in a certain world are famous, but they're not people that you tune in to watch. The problem with audio always was it was unclear how to find people who would be interested in yourself. They never figured out a way around it. And podcasts were too long to recommend a person.
57:23Peter Kafka:To hope that someone came onto the podcast you were listening to and they were interesting and you went and found them and that's how it worked, but incredibly small audience. Yeah, and word of mouth and like a mix of like you appearing on other shows. It was sort of impossible and then a lot of natural things happened of like if you're on long enough, you're just a losing audience because people aren't listening week to week, whatever reason. And then you do this and we've only been doing it for two months and I do having these moments that I felt like I've always been able to have on the show and it finds the people that want to see it like and there is something being like i always knew this moment was interesting and then you're like you put it on social media and like i mean obviously the bill burr example is the most extreme where it's like i think three of the clips three of the four clips we posted on instagram have over a million views one has i think at this point four million that same clip has four million on tiktok that's a lot of people that are consuming it who i think who knows i don't who are getting whatever i wanted to convey about bill now but also like the bob saget clip it's not the full extent of it but like million people watch on instagram whatever million or something on tiktok that are getting this sense of who bill is you know and i still get to have the conversations like the the interview guests are not thinking they're in a cynical experience where they're like doing a hundred subway takes in a row like they feel like they're being interviewed and like that's that's the all right jesse you've convinced me we're gonna redo this episode as a video so please stay right there we're gonna set up the lights and we'll go from there great i'm already comfortable here jesse david fox you rock you can read jesse stuff on vulture you can listen to him on good one you can watch him on the internet thank you for coming over thank you for having me thanks again to the excellent jesse david fox also thanks to the excellent charlotte silver who's back producing and editing glad to have her back thanks to our advertisers, thanks to you guys.
59:19Peter Kafka:We'll see you next week.
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From the publisher
The last time I talked to Jesse David Fox about the comedy boom it was… March 5, 2020.
Since then, some things have changed. But in other ways it’s just the same: comedy - or at least, some kinds of comedy - seems almost custom-built for our current technological and cultural moment, and it’s easier than ever to get this stuff on your devices whenever you want. Or whenever the algorithm thinks you want it.
Fox is a great person to talk to about this stuff: he covers comedy very, very seriously over at Vulture, and on his Good One podcast, and he has a lot of thoughts about the way tech - and perhaps politics - is shaping the stuff that makes us laugh.
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