John Rudaizky | Global CBO and CMO, EY | Marketing a Service - The Art of Selling Confidence

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0:54I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance, and Ancestry.com. I'm here today with my guest, John Ruditsky. Today's topic, marketing a service, the art of selling confidence. Now, John is the global chief brand and marketing officer and CMO of EY, a company that he has been with for nearly 11 years. He probably has a very long business card with that title. Previously, he worked at WPP, J. Walter Thompson, and Saatchi. And Saatchi, welcome, John. Hello, Mike. Great to be here. And great you have a Brit on your show today. Yes, it's great of you coming to us from across the pond.

1:38So welcome to the show. And hey, John, let's just start with an overview of marketing in the service business. You've spent most of your career in the service business. What's the view at 30 ,000 feet of marketing in the service business? Yes. It's funny because when you talk about my career in the service business, of course, the WPP, I was an agency in a service business and EY. Yet most of my career has been actually selling consumer goods and electronics, you know, in terms of my clients over the years. Yeah. When I think about services going from, say, marketing services to EY, there's one word that keeps on coming out, which is confidence.

2:19That in the end, you're in the confidence game of providing a service that your customer can succeed on. You know, I often think B2B marketing and B2B brands are more remote of a decision than any other consumer brand. because in the end, it's your career. If you pick the wrong service provider, your career could not succeed, right? So if you think about it, it's a big, big decision to decide who you want to come in and work with you. And one of the things I think about in certainly coming into the role I have from being on the agency world as a service business, I wish I'd learned it many years is in the end, I'm buying competence.

3:07When an agency walks into the room, in the end, I'm going, am I confident with this team that the outcome will be successful for the business that I'm in? And I think in the context of EY, ultimately from a brand point of view, we are helping out and give confidence to our people when they walk in the room that they'll give the right advice to our clients. Let's talk a little bit about confidence because I agree with you completely that, you know, a lot of times confidence is the thing you're buying. But how do you measure that and how do you even package it? Like, how do you think about it? I mean, it's a great question, Mike.

3:55How do you? I think brands at its core have always built trust, right? So if you look at a brand in its most basic form, it's always been about trust. I think in the context of now, and if I may, I talk a bit about our latest campaign, where we're actually using confidence in the expression, shape the future with confidence. In many ways, what that's doing is it's a simple expression of what we do for our clients. You know, when you think about the business we're in, we have sort of assurance at one end, tax at the other, and then, you know, clearly major enterprise-wide transformation, the adoption of AI and the application of AI.

4:34And across all of those services, what EY does as a professional services point of view is ensure that the client has the confidence to act, has the confidence to make the decision and the confidence that whatever they're doing, there'll be a positive outcome. And so confidence is sort of baked into our DNA in many ways of EY is the advice we give is based on a confident outcome to our client. And John, how do you gauge where your company is on the confidence scale in the marketplace? Because a huge amount of massive companies in your business and in a lot of businesses like yours that are also kind of in there.

5:21How do you figure out if you're sitting there as one of our listeners thinking, I'd like this confidence thing. How do I know where I am in the grid of confidence? How do you even go about figuring that out? Well, you know, in many ways, like any brand, there's a range of metrics, right? It's never one question. I mean, you know, clearly we do a range of, you know, deep surveys around where we are on the trust metrics. So we'll understand, you know, who do you most trust? So we measure metrics that enable us to determine where we fit on that scale relative to our peer group, relative to our own standards in many ways.

6:05And I think the other part, which I'd say is equally important in this confidence thing, is our own people. So EY is incredible at measuring how confident our own people are all the time. because I think, again, at a people business, it's a dimension between what you're providing to your clients and making sure your people are confident in that. So let's talk about the people thing and how you measure their confidence because I hear you saying, look, we look at a bunch of variables, one of which we trust. I'm sure there's a consideration variable in there and awareness and then you probably look at how many people are giving you an RFP and what kind of close rate you get.

6:47and then you're kind of putting that all in your confidence calculator and saying, here's where we are. How do you do it for your people? I mean, just to say, I've brought it out. We don't just look at confidence. I mean, we have a range of metrics, right? In terms of the overall. If you can hear them, I'd love to hear them. You know, I think like any business, if you look internally, externally, as you said, you know, we're looking at consideration set. But I mean, again, B2B and B2C are not that dissimilar in terms of looking at the range of metrics. I think, you know, in the context of people, we look inspired about our purpose, which we haven't talked again.

7:30I think, you know, one of the big discussion points at the moment around brands is people purpose dead. We believe it's not. I think people still want to think about the organization they work for. So I think when we're thinking about metrics, it ranges from, if you like, the questions are more the kind of why do you feel part of the purpose all the way through the, you know, to the satisfaction around being in the organization. I don't know. There's not one silver bullet metric. I think, you know, overall, as you know, in any brand, it's a combination of metrics. Got it. And then, so you're working with, you're looking at the confidence of what you're like, how the marketplace is receiving confidence, how your employees feel about the business.

8:14And now you're going to work on, you know, expanding the brand. Tell us how you went about that. And what are the key elements our listeners could take away from if they're in a similar situation? Yes. So the springboard for our new brand expansion, I would say is twofold. On the first dimension, we had a new CEO, a lady called Janet Troncali join. Big strategy refresh where step one was really looking at what's the future growth strategy. We branded it all in. It's the name of the strategy, but it's also kind of attitude together all in. we have this huge spectrum of different services and we know where we provide the value to our customers.

9:01We bring on the full spectrum of services around that because there are different dimensions to any translation. You can tell us all the services you sell so our listeners. I'll be here for a long time, but I mean... It's like the genus and species when you're in biology. If you think about any organization today, the boardroom, you've got everything ranging from supply chain to tax, to technology, to customer facing innovation. And the way EY is able to operate is whatever issue we can bring in a different talent around it. So for example, if you think about a technology transformation today, actually the way you deliver your products or services or the back of it has a tax implication.

9:50So the way we think about it is whatever issue you're facing, you're shaping it, but you're building in the different dimensions of the issues, the different needs, rather than a singular vertical focus on it. So we're able to look across the boardroom rather than vertically one by one. And that is where the true value is unlocked for an organization. So, you know, bucket one was really the all in pivot was to say, how do we become even, you know, more powerfully focused on our clients and deliver for them in a new way in this era? Yeah. The other one was, as all good brands is what's changing in the world.

10:27And I think when you look around the world, we're sitting in unprecedented times. If you think about the rate of change of geopolitical change, technology, AI, issues like sustainability, socioeconomic shifts, generational shifts. Actually, we're sitting in it in a moment in time with unprecedented change. Yeah. And I think there's so much going on. Right. It is. And I think so where we did as part of the strategy is to say, you know, ultimately, what we know is the organizations that can navigate through these changes thrive. And so that led to a kind of part of our strategy, but also became the external strapline, shape the future with confidence, which is, you know, in many ways, you've got to shape it, not be shaped by the events around you.

11:18And I think, you know, if you look at time, I mean, many of the organization you, you know, you were with over the years, you know, things happen. it's the way you reacted and I think even if you go back just a short time to something like COVID the organizations that pivoted they pivoted their distribution that they pivoted thrive coming out of that and so shape the future with confidence is very much an idea right for the times that it was interesting I've you know I was in Davos last week and it really resonated because actually a lot of the conversation were reacting to what's going on in the world and a lot of the conversation was, well, what do we do about it?

11:57And so, as I say, new strategy, the world is changing around us. What's the right message in a way to take us forward? And a couple of things I'd just say about that. One is it reflects what we do. Again, I think the best brands are authentic. So it's resonated with our people because they know they go into a client's organization and help them figure it out for the future. So it's what they do. And so, you know, you said, what's the advice for people? I'd say be authentic to what you do as a brand. And then, you know, I think the other thing is, I remember when I was a graduate, my father had a book on the side of his shelf called Romancing the Brand.

12:40I've never been able to find it. I don't know what's happened to it, but it was a great book around, you know, the work of a brand is never done. Never. And actually you have to keep evolving it because the world changes around, your business evolves. And so, you know, I would say in many ways, all of us as CMOs, brand leaders, our job is to keep looking what's coming next and position the brand for the next phase. And, well, everyone is feeling this change and reacting to it in different ways. If I'm a smaller company and I'm not going to be able to hire you guys or somebody like you, how should I be thinking about this change and my brand in this space?

13:32I mean, what, with no category in mind? Yeah, no category. I'm out there. The guy is looking at me. My board wants me to do all this stuff. I don't have very much money. I'm a smaller company. What can I learn by watching all the stuff you have done? I think all of us are living in an era where we have to keep hungry and learning. It doesn't matter how big or small you are. So I think I genuinely mean that. I think all of us have to be out there hungry, adopting. I think, you know, one of the things I think from a smaller business point of view is collaboration. And I think, you know, again, it was interesting.

14:08The theme of Davos was about collaboration. And actually, it's a very big part of EY's approach as an ecosystem play. We work together. We don't try and do all of ourselves. We recognize that technology with such shifts, partnership is often a way forward. And so I would say, you know, plus giving anyone advice is looking for the ecosystem around you that you can build together rather than trying to figure it out all of yourself. So what I hear you saying is, geez, don't try and do the pace of change is so great. You shouldn't try and do it all yourself. And if you're smaller, you could actually bring on partners pretty easily because, you know, you don't have to work through a giant apparatus or anything else.

14:56And that is, you know, we had one guest on the show who said one of the biggest skills is going to be vendor management over the next 10 years because of technology and AI and everything else. You're not going to be able to even learn it fast enough. Talk about that and then how you are using partners. Tell us how you're doing it. yeah you know i think i mean certainly there's a lot of work internally that we do on upskilling i think you know there's no doubt as any organization has to keep a mind at upskilling its own workforce because of the rate of change so we you know e-wire is phenomenal by the way in terms of building programs for educating our people on in this instance obviously ai is a big is a big play.

15:47And then, you know, I think it's a question of we built a business that works with alliances. It's part of how, you know, one of the things I mentioned, this all in attitude, together all in, which is the name of our strategy. You know, EY is known for collaborating. EY is known for teaming. You know, part of the brand message is the better the question, the better the answer, the better the world works. And actually, part of that is the way we operate is getting different people around a room to solve the question. And, you know, we have a process called WaitSpace. It's a convening space, but it's a methodology that recognizes most questions today need complex decisions and they need a different group of people to solve for it, which is why we kind of say, you know, together all in, we can shape the future with confidence.

16:39And that's probably different than a bunch of your competitors who actually will be bringing the whole story in. And we're also watching at CMO Confidential, a lot of agencies get a lot, lot bigger. You know, the mergers where there's going to be three mega agencies. How do you think about that space? And, you know, this size matters or it doesn't. Like EY's point on that. Let us... You have to ask me about competitors, right? And I always say, you know, great businesses and great brands, of course, one's aware of what the competitors are, but you build the brand, you build the business that's right for you in serving your client.

17:21So I kind of mean that in, you know, we built a brand, we built a system that works for us and our clients. You know, one of the things that, you know, when I joined was baked into the business was, you know, and I've been lucky also by choice. I've always said, you know, go work for an organization where the CEOs believe in brand. And so CEOs, you know, I've had three since I'm joining here, deeply believe in the power brand. And one of the words within that is distinctive brand. And so every business has authentically got to work out what its own distinctive place in the world, rather than worrying too much, I think, what the competitive play is.

18:04Yeah, look, and I've been on a bunch of brands where you had super competitors and you can And look at them as the people you have to fight, which obviously you're fighting for market share and everything else. But the other way to look at them is competitors make you much more focused and better. And if you didn't, you would probably have to invent them because it pushes you to innovate and change a lot faster. And I'm sure you saw that in the agency space for sure. Yeah, you know, there's no doubt the agency world is going through a seismic change. I think all of us in marketing are going to go through a seismic change.

18:40You know, AI technology is presenting probably, for me, one of the most innovative moments, but it's also going to change the way we do business. It's going to change the way we price things. It's going to change the way we execute. You know, we'll be able to do things we've never been able to do before. So how the different agencies organize around that is going to be interesting to see how that plays out. So let's go back to the brand a little bit. Set the stage. You had some tough PR news as a company a while ago, coming off a split discussion. Tell us how you dealt with that as a CMO and all that change.

19:26Tell us how you dealt with that. I often like to say it's old news now, but people still like asking the question, Mike. So, you know, what I'd say is this, EY has always asked bold questions. I mean, the DNA better questions is about asking provocative questions, which it did. And it explored a bold move. The fact that that didn't pan out is not all something where one should look. The amount of innovation that came off that, I mean, even in some of the work I'm doing, came off the innovative thinking we started to do when you started thinking. I mean, that was a lot of work. So, you know, I think a business that doesn't take her is that doesn't look to innovate.

20:12You don't always come out with the outcome that you started with, but actually there are other outcomes of the result of that that have been hugely advantageous for the firm, is what I would say. Is there any you can share or are they all too top secret to put on air? I mean, it's sort of unfolding, really. I mean, you know, I think probably a bit too toxic, but I mean, you know, some of the bits within the execute, you know, I suppose one of the things just to give you a flavor, if you've noticed the rebrand fresh, we've introduced kind of the spectrum of color into it had a very yellow color.

20:47announced the spectrum color. I mean, A, that was designed to reflect the spectrum of services at a brand level, but actually because we were starting to look at the future, we thought color was interesting. And that probably opened our eyes to a different way of seeing evolving the brand. So, you know, innovation comes through taking big questions and bold questions, as I say. And sometimes you end up with a different path, but that actually leads to a very powerful path. and I think that's where we're on. I like that. You know, we'll post anything you want in the comment section when we post the show.

21:25So if you want to share your, any, you know, logo work or anything like that, we are happy to post it. You know, you touched a little bit on AI and one of the things we're seeing at CMO Confidential is AI eating up a lot of the entry-level marketing jobs at various places. Can you talk about what AI is doing to your business and then what you think marketers should be working on out there as they look at AI entering at speed into the marketplace? If I had a crystal ball, I would be able to give it to you with certainty. But I don't have crystal balls. Damn it. I was so hopeful you were going to do break out the ball and tell me something.

22:10I think we're at the crossroads. none of us quite know exactly where it's going to pan out. I think there are, you know, I sort of see two views of it. One is, which is, yes, there'll be the democratization of the average. And yes, some of the functional jobs will be replaced. At the other end of it, it might just be the moment where as marketers, we can actually innovate in ways that we have not been able to do it. So actually you could do more in marketing. You think about just even at its most basic sort of one-to-one marketing. Right. It's been cost prohibitive for the most part. And when people have done, it's very expensive.

22:47So actually now maybe that becomes a real tangible thing we can do. So I suppose for me, it's about looking at the efficiency play. But then for me, the other flip is how can I accelerate and do even more to build a brand and to market the service? And I think that's the duality that's going to come through. And I think the winners, in a way, will be the people that are embracing it to find what more I can do with it, as opposed to fearing what may go away. I totally agree with that. We've had a bunch of guests on that said, look, you've got to be at the top of the funnel. And at the bottom of the funnel, AI allows you to personalize things like loyalty programs, anything you want, at speed.

23:34but not if you don't know how to use it and not if you don't have a good database. So there's a whole press that I think you're calling it out of. Get going on it any way that you can. I would like to flip to advice for our audience from someone that's been around, you know, the service sector for a long time. Keys to success and misperceptions and mistakes people make in the professional services business. in the professional services. Anything you want, anything you want. When you're from your seat, you're talking to, you know, we have an awful lot of marketers and people out there. What are the keys to success and what are the mistakes people make in terms of how they think about it or what they do with it when they're in the job?

24:29You know, I think for me, I'm orientated to the belief that creativity is the single most defining advantage for a business or for a brand. I really believe in that. And I think sometimes there's been a rush to tactic and technology. and I think sometimes the art of emotional, creative selling has taken a back seat in the conversation. And I think it's a skill, you know, if you say, what's the one skill that will thrive through this AI period? I still believe the creative spark, the lateral spark that's going to come through and the ability to pick an idea and then herd it through a business, which doesn't, you know, let's face it, selling in an idea.

25:26I'm sure you've been there, right? Not everyone says the first idea you walk in, hey, that's great. It takes some selling. It takes some nurturing and say confidence going back to the early point. So for me, I would say the mistake is sometimes I think the tactic and the machine of marketing has token over the art or creativity in that process and celebrating that part of it. I think this is a good call out. And let me make sure if I, because I agree with you. And I think what you're saying here is the math is the math, but if you don't have some creativity ongoing and are pressing on it, you will optimize the math, but not the brand and not the company and not the financials.

26:14Is that a fair statement? But it is a fair statement. You know, we just shot two films, one called Transformations and one about generations, which is about purpose and future generations. And I thought I'd link test them just to double check that my feeling was right. You know, and I don't, you know, we haven't done it. And what I learned from that, I was reminded that all the theory works. So what I saw in this audience research was the shift in emotion, relationship, all the ways in which creativity works in an emotional way not a logical way i think that just so everybody listening understand how you did that test can you share kind of just the basics for how you did that test so yes so link they exposed it the ad it's i mean it's fairly basic to i think i don't know exactly the numbers we did a couple of hundred people and you're you know They're following it and they're getting responses to it.

27:15And what you're seeing is off the back of this is shifts in relationship attitudes towards us, shifts in consideration to us. But the actual ad built warmth and emotion.

27:32What was that book many years ago? The Art of Persuasion. I think creative is a subtle way of persuading people to prefer your brand. And I think whatever the agency line up in the future, there will need and continue to be people who can come up with very lateral thoughts. Great. Look, we are happy to post those when we do the show as well. Fantastic. And then, yo, last question before we get to our last question. If I'm sitting there listening to this show thinking, man, I want a career like John's, what advice would you give them on how to get to have a career like you've had? I was going to say start on a market stall like I did, but I don't think we need them anymore.

28:33It's all online now. I'm not sure if there's any stall that exists in a market. I would say, number one, I genuinely believe follow your passion. And that's really important. That goes without saying. And then push as hard as you can to work for the most innovative company and people. You know, I count myself lucky. I got into Saatchi and Saatchi many years ago. It was the agency. What I would say is the agency of the planet. The sort of diaspora of people around the world speaks themselves. but I was lucky enough to work with incredible people that pushed me up. You know, the old thing, if you play tennis against a better opponent, you go up.

29:13And I think for me, it would be about landing a job where you're surrounded by brilliant people because they will, whatever you're good, they'll lift you to that next standard. Okay. I think great advice, which brings us to our traditional last question. it's a starter you can pick one or both but you must pick at least one practical advice for our listeners we haven't talked about yet and or funniest story you can tell on the air uh go with one of those or both of those it's it's your so i might deviate i've just finished listening to quincy jones's book uh 12 notes okay if you've heard it it's a beautiful audiobook and there were two things that struck me.