Peri Hansen | Leader, CMO Practice, Korn Ferry - Is Marketing Still Marketing?

0:00The CMO Confidential podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast? I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth, and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit IHearEverything.com.

0:22Peri Hansen:Welcome to CMO Confidential, the podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions, and choices that go with being the head of marketing. Hosted by five-time CMO Mike Linton. Typeface helps the world's biggest brands move from business brief to fully personalized campaigns in hours, not months, with its agentic AI marketing platform. They are the first enterprise platform with agentic AI marketing workflows designed to instantly automate work that used to take weeks. With Typeface, one campaign scales into thousands of personalized experiences across ads, email, and video while staying true to your brand.

1:09The company's AI-native platform integrates seamlessly into your MarTech stack and marketing workflows and includes enterprise-grade security. Adweek named Typeface AI Company of the Year. Time Magazine featured them as a best invention. and Fast Company called them the next big thing in tech. See how major brands like Asics and Microsoft are transforming marketing with Typeface. Learn more at typeface.ai slash CMO. Welcome marketers, advertisers, and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite.

2:01I'm Mike Linton, the former chief marketing officer of Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance, and Ancestry.com, here today with my guest, Perry Hanson. Today's topic, is marketing still marketing anymore? Dramatic evolution in the C-suite. Now, Perry has been with Korn Ferry for over 25 years and is currently leading the North American CMO practice. She's also the sector leader for consumer products. She has a long business card, is my guess. She's also involved in Korn's advisory business, as well as board-level searches, and completes approximately 25 to 30 searches a year, so a good person to know.

2:45Full disclosure, I've known Perry for a number of years, and she placed me in a board position several years ago. This is her second time on the show. Welcome, Perry. Thank you, Mike. Always an honor and a pleasure to spend time with you. Great to have you back. Let's start with the article that triggered this show. You wrote that CMOs were becoming the new vanguards of innovation. Give us the cliff notes on this missive you wrote. Happy to do so, and thank you for the acknowledgement. So I and a couple of fantastic colleagues wanted to take a look at what's changing in the function, and how does that inform one's career and opportunities and the reasons to stay in the seat of a CMO.

3:33We all know that's increasingly challenging, but when you look at the breadth of influence that a CMO has today, it also is incredibly rewarding and it's different. So three major findings, be an expert in the use of sophisticated technology, contribute to strategy beyond the marketing function, thinking about strategy at an enterprise level or through an enterprise lens. And then owning the entire lifecycle of a customer and all of its business outcomes are three really important opportunities and new challenges for CMOs. Now, how do you get there? We studied the rise of the data-driven CMO. We looked at the integration of technology and marketing, of course.

4:1875 % of CMOs say they need to master MarTech to achieve business outcomes. We would have seen a stat like that 10 years ago. We looked at the CMO as the strategist. Again, beyond marketing strategy, enterprise strategy. The CMO is the change agent, the real leadership component of being a CMO. Breaking down silos, developing teams, team development, the hottest topic today. when it comes to mandates for CMOs. And then we looked at the focus on the customer experience. These are all great opportunities for CMOs to distinguish and grow. And in your mind, this is a huge evolution from, if we go back to even 20 or 30 years ago for CMOs, where basically you were kind of just doing the marketing.

5:09In your mind, marketing's morphed completely into, I won't put words in your mouth, but I'm looking at this thing, You're kind of driving a lot of the strategy of the company from the chair, and you're driving a lot of the change in the company, and you have to know a lot of stuff to make that work. Is that right? You do have to know a lot of stuff to make that work. And that's what I think is so different and so powerful about this great career platform. So when you think about what changed, you're absolutely right. The conversation is so different than how we thought about CMO talent 15, 20 years ago.

5:44Much of that driven by digital transformation. And CMOs were on the forefront of that. So whether it was launching an e-commerce site, a digital product, or helping a traditional retailer think about an omni-channel strategy, CMOs had those opportunities to contribute boldly, broadly, link arms with CIOs and CTOs, and therein began the transformation, the breadth of influence, and the need to master some areas that weren't as relevant a couple of decades. Before I dig into a couple of these topics a little bit, I want to say this evolution, though, it's not universal. It must be like fits and starts all over the place, right?

6:25Where are you seeing it, the dramatic evolution the most, and what industries or other things are more laggards? I would say tech leads when you think about the breadth and the positioning of the CMO today. Whether that's, again, working hand in glove with commercial leadership to develop customer strategies, or whether it's linking arms with a CTO to focus on product and pricing that matters most to the end user. We're seeing a tremendous opportunity and big shifts in terms of the power and influence of tech CMOs. lagging. I don't know that anyone's lagging, but I will say we're actually seeing opportunities across the board in industry.

7:11Consumer, of course, marketing's always led. Marketing has always had a seat at the table. But what a marketer does, how they build and develop teams, and the breadth of expertise that they have to have, again, to our conversation, is just so different today. Let's drill down into the tech thing, which is the marketer now at the forefront of tech, which is something you wouldn't have said before digital, certainly. And this is, you know, in your previous show, you talked about the CMO as connective tissue for the company, connecting everything together. Tell me about this tech. How do you build your tech creds?

7:49And, you know, what's going to be required for people that want to be CMOs on the tech front as they're growing up right now. So it's interesting. You referenced the connective tissue analogy or symbol. I think about mastering tech as building the muscle that fuels the connective tissue. And in so many ways, my knowledge is power, right? Yeah. The more you master, the more sophisticated the conversations, the stronger the partnerships with other functions. And we see that when it comes to CMOs and CTOs. So what does it take? You've got to be a constant learner. You have to be thirsty for knowledge.

8:28And that cycle never stops because today more so than ever, CMOs are tasked with looking around corners. What's the next set of tools, whether it's AI or whatever's after AI? Much of that falls on the CMO today. So really being hungry for knowledge, being able to be an evangelist for new opportunities, new strategies, shifting budgets, and doing that ideally all with very, very strong connections to sales teams and tech. Yeah. So I 100 % back the tech thing, which is if you are not, if you can't converse in that, I mean, you're not going to get maybe a lot done in, particularly in a lot of companies.

9:11You know, one of the other things you said when we talked about the show was you don't think anything returned to normal after COVID. Tell us what you meant by that or what you mean by that. What we mean by that is that all of our behaviors and patterns shifted, whether that meant hybrid work, how we purchase, how we embrace deliveries, the type of technology that can fuel our lives from home or the office. It all changed. There were so many learning opportunities and shift in spending patterns. So what does that mean for marketeer? It reemphasizes the importance of data and understanding behavior through data, being able to accrue that data, measure it, and then fuel your product and pricing strategies because the world has shifted.

10:04Well, and also there's nothing that's stable and it doesn't appear that anything is staying stable. So I think this is a really good thing. And as a follow-in to that, you said, hey, Mike, this is probably going to cause more CMO and CEO turnover. Tell us what you're thinking there. So I'll tell you when it comes to CMOs, we're seeing a strong desire for either meaningful succession. So thinking about what your next generation of CMO looks like and development within, or companies that have lagged, who just haven't made the investment in technology, who are seeing the competition, think more boldly, act faster.

10:49Sometimes there's that shift in the CMO seat. So it's rare that we're seeing a mandate to find a CMO who brings the same skills and experiences as the last one. When companies go to the outside, they're looking to make a seismic shift. And that's typically a different industry background, a different emphasis on MarTech, or someone who's a proven change agent. They have mastered economic cycles. They understand shifts in consumer behavior as they can build and continue to develop teams that have high impact. And they're agile. To your point, they have the ability to anticipate what the next opportunity or challenge is.

11:28We are taking a short break from this show for a word from our sponsor, Typeface.

11:39To orchestrate workflows across channels, meet Arc Agents. Your AI teammates handling complexity so you can focus on what matters. All within a reimagined workspace where you and AI create as one. Spaces works the way you do. Create anything. From documents to videos to entire campaigns. At scale. Our agents help you craft campaign storyboards powered by your brand hub, giving you the perfect starting point. Transform one asset into countless variations for every audience and market.

12:20Join industry leaders already reimagining their content lifecycle with Typeface. Welcome to marketing's next chapter, where every story finds its voice.

12:33now back to our discussion so the traditional role is non-existent actually going forward and um so you know we've had a bunch of people on the show that say hey gosh that name cmo isn't even right anymore and the titles like this and that and everything else and and we can agree the traditional role is kind of like in the rear view mirror. What's in the, what's, what are you looking at through the windshield though? What's the role going to be? What's replacing that traditional role when you look at job specs and you're writing them for people? Sure. Definitely greater impact and influence on the sales function.

13:16And sometimes we see in tech, sometimes sales or component of sales is tucked under the CMO. Definitely strong linkage to technology. And really, you know, we're seeing clients want measurable impact when it comes to big tech investments and marketing. So what did you do? How did you measure your success? How did that fuel product innovation? How did that influence enterprise strategy? All of those things are being measured much more closely and carefully. That makes sense. That's a great opportunity. huge amount of sense and people should love that because if you do something and you produce results there's your story um and and the other thing that you said was going on is a huge amount of companies want to discuss org design and structure tell us what that even means like like because you know everyone argues about structure and then you have this but companies you know coming to you to talk about structure.

14:17What's behind all that? Yeah, I don't even think that it's an argument anymore. I think there's just a lot of confusion about it, right? Oftentimes, we're asked before we start a search, do we have the right structure? Do we have the right people in the right seats? What do other companies like ours look like and look for when it comes to CMO talent? So a lot of, I would say, not uncertainty, but I think an openness to the new and different. And oftentimes that's mandate number one for a new CMO coming in the door. Do we have the right structure? Do we have the right people? Have we made ample investment in team development?

14:50Because, you know, as I say so frequently, you can't change out your marketing team every couple of years as the world changes, consumers change, tech changes. You've got to continue to invest and inspire those people to be curious, learn more, change and adapt. huge opportunity in terms of how you think about organizational design. And then, of course, as I mentioned, the linkage to sales and tech. Yeah. So two follow-ons to that. How do companies come to the conclusion that they need help in an org design? And they're like, what is it that's they're looking at the business or they're looking around?

15:23And then when they ask you that question, do they have a lot of pre, like a bunch of thinking in it? Or are they just like, we got a bunch of problems and we're not sure how to solve it and we're starting with org like how does this even come about yeah the answer varies depending on the organization so sometimes it's simple curiosity hey we haven't changed our structure in 10 years how could we possibly be relevant now we might have changed the titles and maybe people do work a little bit differently but we fundamentally have the same structure that we had 10 years ago um is that right what are other company's doing.

16:02Sometimes it's way, we're way behind. We underinvested in our digital strategy. We're not a true omni-channel business or brand. We've seen slower growth. How are we going to expand our reach? Oh, by the way, we're thinking about global expansion. You know, is e-commerce going to reside in country? Is it centralized? All of those things can come into play when it comes to org design. Oh, that is super interesting. So when I look at all this going on, and I look at AI, and I look at everything else, I feel like there's almost a lost generation of leaders that are going to be created with AI rushing up, and a bunch of entry-level jobs disappearing, and a bunch of people at the top that maybe are not native to all this technology.

16:52I think, are we going to have the same amount of leadership pool in the business community, just countrywide or worldwide, that we used to have? And are we minting the same type of leaders, or are we going to have a leadership drought as we go forward? I think we'd be silly to assume life will look the same when it comes to the workplace and org design and org structure with AI. And yet, personally, I believe there's no substitution for great leadership. As long as your leaders are agile and hungry for knowledge and adaptive and are embracing AI. Now, you can look at AI as an existential threat, and there are plenty of people who do and assume that they're going to be looking at an earlier retirement.

17:39Their skill set becomes redundant. But plenty of people are leaning into it. they're at least curious and they understand, hey, my boss expects me to master this or my client expects that I'm embracing AI to be better, smarter, faster. Those are real opportunities. But there's no substitute for great leaders who have experienced economic cycles, who understand that the world is going to continue to change and they bring that leadership component. Change agents, people who understand how to influence, create change and opportunity, that comes with time and seasoning. So let me flip this to the other side, though.

18:22I take out a whole bunch of entry level jobs, maybe in in at agencies, at media, analytics, law firms, etc. And I'm taking all these people out of the mix because AI is going to do that work and it's going to do great work. And it already is in a lot of places. That leadership trade you get in your first job or your second job where you can look up and see those great leaders you were just talking about. If you don't have that job, how do you get the leadership training that people have been getting for years by doing that basic work at the bottom of the pyramid? I think the basic work will continue to be there, but what it is and how it develops young talent will shift and change.

19:10And I think most of us and the generations that follow us are going to have to think about what do we do well, what differentiates us, and how do we strengthen that muscle so that AI isn't an automatic replacement. Now, that's not an easy thing to solve for, but it does mean that we're all going to continue to have to think about developing the next skill set or leaning into your superpowers and investing in those things that you do well that can't be replaced by a bot. So there's, yes, and a bunch of our guests have talked about, and I believe this, you still will need creativity. You still will need the human touch.

19:45And in the end, AI will level this playing field for a lot of basic stuff. So you have to really think about how you're going to play. And I think that will be really interesting, particularly given the team you want to structure and then how you train your folks. Um, how should today's leaders prepare just on this people development front for what's coming? I mean, like, give us some specifics you recommend to clients. So we again look for the agile leader, somebody who can anticipate change, and then begin to share the opportunities associated with that change with their teams. And when you do these, when you say like Agile, could you also say, here's how I interview for that when I'm sourcing candidates?

20:31So Agile is the first one. Like, what do you ask? So first we look for, you know, it starts with the resume, right? So we're typically looking for people who've made significant pivots in career. And then we start to measure the impact and success of that. I mean, that's really what demonstrates agility. We also have a proprietary assessment tool that helps us measure that in really important ways. But I think much of it is at least at first identified in career choices, novel, difficult, turnaround, and then the decisions made thereafter. So it's that differentiated resume. It's simply not the linear career path that was just fine and acceptable 10 to 15 years ago.

21:17Those different experiences can be telling. Got it. So one thing is agility. What are the other things that I'm looking for in preparing for my leadership stuff? Definitely a change agent. And, you know, whether that's someone who's been digitally disruptive or helped a company through a major turnaround or a much needed phase of growth, people who've had series of experiences and been on the leading edge of change, they prove their ability to influence to team. They tend to be humble and they're really smart and curious. And is there, so agility, change agent, are there any more that you really are pressing on?

22:00Of course, being digitally savvy in all things. And I think that's industry agnostic. People just have to be leaning into tech and it has to be comfortable and natural. And does this mean if you stay at one company a long time and you don't actually step out, even if you're rising up at just a good, decent pace, that you are disadvantaged if you don't move? I don't think that's the case for everybody. Now, of course, you're asking someone who's been with one firm. Yeah, I'm just saying. 26 years. But when it comes to my day job. I've still got all my questions, Perry. I think most people believe that after, you know, six to eight years, change is healthy.

22:41Either there's a new career platform that offers new opportunities for leadership or growth.

22:46Peri Hansen:It doesn't mean that staying with one organization is a bad thing or sets you back as long as that organization is evolving. And so, you know, I'll just be personally, that's the reason I've stayed with my firm. We've changed dramatically since I started as a senior associate way back when. And that's fueled my knowledge, my leadership, career opportunities. But the majority of people, particularly marketeers, are looking to do something new and different. And importantly, those who just love what they do like to like big problems and they like to solve them and they like to measure their impact.

23:19And that can come from a series of different career choices along the way. And if I read between the lines here, I'm saying, if you had a choice for candidates, you would have somebody that had moved some and worked for different types of people versus someone that had been in one place and worked for the same person or set of people for a long time because they would be more stress test. Is that fair? I would say that most of our clients are looking for a variety of experiences. Now, they also want to avoid the job hopper who can't speak to impact and success in meaningful ways. But it is the background of the single employer can be a little intimidating and create some uncertainty for someone, for a client who's looking to have somebody make a fast impact, form quick relationships.

24:13They can be a little bit more conservative when it comes to pulling somebody out of a single ecosystem. Yeah, I think that's probably, that's what I would say too, which was when I was interviewing for stuff, you want someone that has had some change, so you know they're not going to, you're not going to have to break them in on their first real culture change. Right. And some failure. So I debriefed with a client today who met a candidate yesterday and the candidate in chapter two of career, first move out of a big company, stumbled and fumbled and overestimated their ability to influence the CEO and board when it came to marketing spend and strategy.

24:52not a great success story but boy that person's ability to tell the story with conviction and then talk about how it informed his next choice and the impact that he was able to have because of that failure really powerful stuff yeah i guess if you haven't taken any failure failures you haven't probably taken any risk which means you're not going to make any good changes so interesting You also said, in your mind, references are going to continue to matter more than ever in the search process. Tell us what you mean by that. Sure. Well, third-party verification, always helpful in understanding, you know, the full, all the dimensions of a candidate.

25:35But in the case of marketeers, CEOs and boards want to understand impact. What was the business result? What was the talent strategy? How did it increase revenue and EBITDA? So those references really can get technical and, you know, quantitative pretty quickly. I think the measurement component, not to mention, we always want to understand leadership, how someone shows up, how they're regarded 360, how they've led and formed relationships and been successful in an organization. So both dimensions, but increasingly the measurement side matters a lot for CMOs. And then there's the references the candidate gives you and the references you get from the wild.

26:18How do you, how do search firms go about getting the right set of references? So knowing that confidentiality is so key for anyone who's embarking in the search process, we're really careful and surgical about that. So yes, we will absolutely look at the references that a candidate has given us, but then we'll look for references that might be additive and complimentary. We'll ask. We'll oftentimes go back and say, great, love to talk to these four people. But here are three other people we think would be incredibly helpful. Can you help us? So we typically don't rely on the list given to us by a candidate.