The Top Mistakes CMO's Make During the Interview Process | Kate Bullis & David Wiser | ZRG Partners

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1:37Learn more at typeface.ai.com. Welcome marketers, advertisers, and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions, and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former chief marketing officer of Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance, and Ancestry.com, here today with my guests, Kate Bullis and David wiser. Today's topic, the top mistakes CMOs make during the interview process. Now, Kate and David are the global marketing practice leaders and managing partners of ZRG.

2:29They have the longest business cards probably of anybody, and they are both marketing champions. They were guests on one of our most popular shows, the top five mistakes CEOs and boards make when hiring a CMO. where they clustered these mistakes into movie themes. So for today's topic, we have a sports analogy, pregame, game time, and postgame about the entire interview process. Now, full disclosure, I've known Kate and David for a number of years. Welcome back to the show, Kate and David. Thanks for having us. Thank you, Mike. Good to be here. All right, let's start. Before we even get into the theme of the show, Let's start by you all telling us about the job market.

3:16How are things looking in 2025? You know, everyone's talking about AI, the economy, tariffs, blah, political, all kinds of stuff. Tell us what's going on in the job market from your seats. I think you've said a mouthful already. It's AI, AI, AI. And I think that, you know, with change comes opportunity. Every time we see fluctuations or changes in the economy and the market, we see searches surge. I would say that so far this year, we're having a pretty close to record year in terms of new search work open. And that's for you all or the whole market? Because I know you guys are killing it, but how about the whole market?

4:07Well, you mean outside of marketing? Yeah, just in marketing leadership and then all of business. Yeah, David, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm remembering the stats so far for ZRG this year. And I know that in last quarter, we had a record quarter, not just year over year, but in the history of ZRG. and so and that's across the business across all of executive search financial services industrial tech retail cpg david any other well you know what we've been all talking about the last six months are tariffs and trade deals and i was optimistic like many back at the you know in january that this would this would settle at some point i think since the trade deals are settling tariffs seem to be calming down.

5:00That's opened up a lot of investment. You know, this big, beautiful law, politics aside, I know a lot of our private equity clients are excited about it because it makes permanent, you know, 100 % depreciation on capital equipment. PE's got a short life cycle. You know, that's great for the books. We're starting to see some more buying at the top to create that suction and that flywheel in the middle market, certainly in private equity. I will say our partners in Europe still say things are a bit soft. Kate, wouldn't you say that's sort of the tone from Europe and Asia? US is a little different.

5:37Yeah. And I would say the last thing there is I'm starting to see kind of a tale of two cities, companies that are being born and the massive companies that are transforming. that's where the bulk of the opportunity in new leadership roles is happening. The stuff in the middle, the middle markets, when I say middle market, and I'm referring a lot to, especially to technology here, these companies don't have necessarily the bulk and the wherewithal and the resources to make it to transform into AI. And so these AI transformations of companies of size and scale and consequence, they've got it. They've got the ability to do it.

6:27It might be a little hard, but they're going to make it. And then the ones that were born in AI, they're the ones that are also - Yeah, native guys are going to just run away with it. Right. We've had a bunch of guests say the middle is nowhere to be in any of these games. And I hear you emphasizing that. So it's time for CMO Confidential Game Time. Now that we've set the stage for all the interviews you might be going on out there in the marketplace, let's talk about the mistakes marketers make when they interview. You know, your early show set a super high bar. It's one of our most popular shows.

7:01And we here at CMO Confidential are certain you're going to jump over that bar. So if you're ready, let's go. First up, pregame, the preparation. You call out a bunch of stuff in preparation. Let's hear the mistakes folks make in preparation. Shall I start? Fire away. I'll start with know thyself. Know thyself. Really understand what your own strengths and weaknesses are, what your differentiators are. in the CMO market. How can you begin the search for a next opportunity simply by looking at similar companies in terms of product or industry? If you really understand your own strengths, you really help yourself in essentially product market fit.

8:07And so think about yourself as a product in the market and ask yourself, not only, you know, what are my strengths as like brand versus demand generation versus product marketing excellence? Think about the patterns that you can identify in your own career around things like company moment. Are you someone who's done more work in the growth phase of a business versus the transformation phase or early startup phase? What about customer? Are you someone who really knows a certain customer segment very well, SMB versus, say, enterprise? Because that says a lot about your excellence in go-to-market motion.

8:58You know, what are your what do you know as far as a buyer and persona? What what things do you bring to the table across a lot of the different positions you've had that allow you to be really dangerous as compared to your your peers? And how does that help in this in the companies that you go after? So two follow ons on that one. And this is like a marketplace analysis of yourself along with pattern recognition. But the fact that you're bringing up it as a mistake to me says an awful lot of people actually are not taking a hard look at themselves like they might look at the marketplace for their brand or business.

9:46And I should have said that right from the start. That's exactly right. We just don't see it enough. You know, I am personally surprised by how often an executive is not really recognizing the pattern of their entire career and are not elevating those patterns out and bringing them into the decision making on what companies they should actually go after. So, go ahead, David. I was just going to say, I may be repackaging what Kate said here with this first point, but now that I'm in my fourth decade of recruiting, I realized in probably year two or three that there's three jobs you could step into.

10:31You're building it, you're optimizing it, or you're fixing it. And a lot of jobs have elements of all three, but fundamentally, any business at any point in time is going to be defined in one of those ways. When I was recruiting for dot coms back in 1996, 97, the big mistake was you had CPG people who were largely optimizers, big company optimizers move into a high growth build it role. And they were just not skilled to do that. The builders and the fixers tend to have the same motivations and a lot of the same skills. Optimizer, it's a different skill set. it's not like one is better or worse than the other, but to Kate's point, you have to really define which bucket you fit in, and those are the opportunities that you should pursue.

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12:22Now back to our episode with Kate Bullis and David Weiser. And this, so what you both are saying is you got to take a really objective look at yourself, look for patterns and patterns that you can prove versus patterns you wish you had. And then also, one of the other things that you talked about is you got to have kind of an imagination to see yourself and the opportunity in the preparation. Tell us about that. Well, one suggestion we started making a long time ago, and we actually laid this out in a spreadsheet and we share it with candidates. You know, marketers are great at analytics, but they're not great at analyzing themselves.

13:06I mean, you kind of made that point, Mike, a minute ago. Understand what's on your shopping list, right? Different things are important to different people. Is it industry? Is it company ownership? Is it size and scale of business? Again, is it build, fix, optimize? Am I more about cash or equity? Does location matter? Who am I going to report? There's an endless number of things that could be important to you as you shop for a job. Step number one is separate the opportunity and just list for yourself what's most important to you. And do a lot of people not do that? Because it's like going to the grocery store without a list.

13:45You know what, Mike, that's exactly right. A lot of people will tell me that I'm doing that in my head. And they are. But here's the problem. You get to a new opportunity and there's some super shiny object feature about that. And you get all focused on it, only to realize, geez, that was kind of in the middle of my list. That wasn't even considered a critical factor. So rank those factors from most important to least important. Put a spreadsheet together. Column A is opportunity one. Column B is opportunity two. And when you look at a role, that's your checklist. That's what you should be asking recruiters about.

14:25That's what you should be asking hiring managers about. And then you can objectively step back and see how that role really lines up against what's important to you. And you can score it. Hey, let me ask you this. So when you two are recruiting candidates and we're just in the pregame, the preparation, and they are not really self-aware and they don't really have this list, do they fall down in the process with you or do you fix them up and then send them out or is it all situational? Mm-hmm. I would, if I'm being honest, it's situational, especially if we see it, if we see the pattern or we see the opportunity.

15:11So often, you know, I'm approaching someone about an opportunity, and just because it's not on the list doesn't mean it isn't potentially exciting. I mean, I'm thinking about a major search I'm conducting right now where, you know, people just don't even see something like this coming. And so having the list is important, but it shouldn't dictate everything. In the end, I think that we all know that the data will be in front of you, but in the end, you will go with your gut. And so if I am a candidate and I haven't done a great job of preparation, if I'm really good or good for the job, you two will buck me up and get me there and if it's not good you might strike me out is that right yeah the only dangerous thing about that is actually the very end what if it's a super building block important thing to the executive and it's not being addressed in the opportunity but a bunch of other things are yeah we all might be sorry at the altar got it mike i've said time and time again that kate and i are in the retention business we're not in the acquisition business you know our job is not to just get somebody into a role or get somebody hired it's to get them into the right role where a year from now they get promoted that's the sign of a successful search and if somebody comes to an interview with us and they haven't really sorted this out.

16:48I think Kate's spot on. It depends on how they react to the conversation. If they recognize they haven't really organized, who am I and what do I want to do, but they're open to it and they'll go through the exercise with us. And there's some self-awareness and some humility. I'll invest in that all day long. Yes. Okay, great. So preparation is over. It's game time. You're going to the interview. You've made it through the tough ZRG screen, and the company's looked at it and said, all right, I want to talk to your candidate. You, Sarah, there's three in-game mistakes. We'll take them in order.

17:29Playbooking, product pushing, and disengagement. Let's start with the playbooking mistake. This is during the interview, so here we go. Playbooking. Yeah, so I'll start on playbooking. When we say playbooking, this is when a CMO assumes that work that they've done in their prior life absolutely applies here. And the way they were successful before is just airlifted and dropped down into the new situation. And just because there are similarities in a situation doesn't mean that the playbook is the answer. And so absolutely, bring relevant experience, bring relevant knowledge, bring relevant plays.

18:18But every playbook must be invented anew in every company. I think we would argue this all day long. AI makes this only even truer. And I think that in the end, if you bring a playbook mentality, you bring one of assumption. And we know where assuming brings us. Hey, I won't go to the grade school thing. But what you're saying is this as a CMO during the interview process or whatever job is going to pound that square peg into that round hole because they know they have the answer and they think they're being hired for the answer. But it is actually not why they're being hired. And those guys get scratched.

19:05I mean, those interviews, they get scratched pretty fast by the company. And then do they feed back to you all and say, what the hell? How did you not get through this playbook guy? Uh, uh, yeah. Um, yes. And, and, and I do think it's my job and David's to make sure that, um, stuff like that just doesn't happen, but it, but we've seen it happen and it actually kind of relates to the, the second, uh, the product pushing. Product pushing, you bet. That, you know, this is, this is kind of a classic. Look at this. How about this? I did this and I did that in their zeal, right? In their zeal to share how relevant my experience is to this opportunity.

19:53The opportunity is absolutely the bigger opportunity, which is the recognition that this interview is actually a mini example of what it's like to work with me. Yes. And so when I'm interviewing with you and I'm doing nothing but this and this and this, because you're assuming that that's what the interviewer wants to know, you're missing the opportunity to be curious and really engage in a conversation that says, I have a lot of experience. I believe a lot of it is relevant. But let's have a conversation about it. Hey, are playbooking and product pushing versions of overselling? Yes. Yeah. David, what do you think?

20:49Yeah. You know, going back to playbooking. Lack of awareness. Yeah, lack of awareness for sure. This may be an extreme analogy, but we've all seen those social media clips where some celebrity gets pulled over on the 101. one. They've been weaving for three miles and CHP pulls them over and inevitably they drop it, right? Do you know who I am? It's kind of a version of that, right? And it just comes across to your point as not humble, not aware. It just, it doesn't work. And is there also a too eager component of product pushing where I want this job so bad, I'm not going to have a discussion.

21:32I'm just going to overwhelm you with all my talent. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I can think of an example where an executive brought, now this is the high 90s, but it was such a stunning example of this subject that I have to share it. The individual brought a binder. oh yeah i've had them to the interview and whipped out the binder and started showing the executive examples and the executive is like don't care didn't ask i have a note from my friend about how good i am how about and and your third thing disengagement david you want to talk about disengagement yeah i i think frankly this is probably the biggest issue and there's a you You want to go to the dance with somebody who wants to go with you.

22:22And there's a lot of ways to show engagement. That's where it gets a little bit tricky. But what I look for, and I think what most people who are hiring look for is, have you done your homework? Do you really understand who we are? Don't ask me questions that you could have answered on your own, right? What's a good example of that? Well, I had an interview last week with a candidate for a publicly traded healthcare company who is asking me questions that they could have found in the recent filings and i said have you looked at the recent filings well no i haven't well why don't you take a look it's it's those kinds of things right do your homework um bring some energy um and and again that's different for different people you know mike shishefsky energy versus bobby knight energy those are two different things, but they both show it.

23:12I think a lot of people lose the game in the questions that they ask or don't ask. Don't ask. They're asking, again, obvious questions that they could have answered. One technique that I shared with people that's pretty effective, you state the question, you very quickly work in a hypothesis, and then you restate the question, right? So Mike, Mike, what's the situation with the company right now? As I looked at the numbers, they look a little bit flat. They look flat in Europe. They look flat in the US. Looks like they need. So I'm just curious, just show some engagement by having done your homework and bring an opinion when you ask that question.

23:54Implied in that is I've digested all the publicly available stuff in addition to the spec, thought about it. And then I'm going to ask you a question that says I'm at the table already. And notice that that isn't necessarily defined as a marketing question. The other thing that that does is demonstrate that this is an, I am an executive that cares about the business. Now, how I can add to the goals of this business is via marketing. But the goals of the business are this, and I'm looking at the numbers. And I'm wondering what are the, and then it's my job to figure out how marketing can help to fix that.

24:39I like that. So what percent of candidates make one of these three mistakes? Roughly. The majority, I would say. Is that right? So over 50 % of people. But it's not a death sentence. Any one of these may not be a killer. Yeah. If they're doing all three, there's a very slim chance they're going to get hired. Yeah. But yeah, and I would argue that playbooking in right now in especially in B2B, it used to be the opposite. It used to be that everybody wanted the playbook. Yeah, bring bring the playbook show me that you know the movie. And, and just, and like I said, airlift it and it's the exact opposite.

25:20Now, it's the any sniff of someone who just thinks that they can bring with the way they did it before. there's the door well yeah prove you can think so the game is over and it's post game you know there's three things that happen post game you get the job you take it you get the job you don't take it you don't get the job um you guys had three errors you guys are really good the two of you coming in threes here you want to take them in order you know you're the one congratulations and then you managed to mess it up. Let's talk about what happens. Hey, Mike, before we do that, can I backpedal for one second?

26:07Of course. So we didn't put this on the list, but if you said, what's the one mistake that most people make in interviewing either with Kate or I or with the client? In my opinion, it's talking too much. That is the single biggest mistake. On my LinkedIn, I don't do a lot of writing, but on my LinkedIn page, there's an article I wrote a couple of years ago called 30 seconds. I think it's actually pretty funny. But it applies both inside of work and outside of work. The average attention span for an adult is 20 to 30 seconds. And if you don't think you can answer the question in 30 seconds, you're not pushing yourself.

26:46Most people stretch a 30 second answer into two minutes. And after 30 seconds, you start sounding like that teacher on the peanuts. cartoons. That's exactly right. They won't hear it. So keep it tight. You can cover more ground. You're going to be more memorable. It's the number one mistake. Just tighten it up. Also, the other thing, there's those people that can talk while they're inhaling. And you don't get a chance for them to take a breath. And I'm like, I would always tell my team, if you are doing that, stop it. That's right. Not talk while you are inhaling. And I don't even know how you do that but stop it so so all right let's go to post game uh you guys can we'll take them in the order uh they're on the sheet you're the one congratulations but you're going to blow it because who's taking this one okay you got this one all right all right i'll take it so this is the this is the mistake that happens when um you've been offered the job and you want the job and you're you have every intention of accepting the job but you blow it um in the negotiation of the uh compensation package this is when it when typically that that's that's what really goes awry um and um you wind up um turning the company off so much in your negotiation that the offer winds up being rescinded.

28:20And we have seen this before, where, and this is when, you know, people like David and myself can really help if the executive allows us to. If something is very important to you, that's fair. But you want to share it, A, early, and B, in a really transparent way with everyone in the process who's important. That means us, meaning David and myself, as well as the person on the other side of the table. And if it doesn't transpire that that important thing can be achieved, what you don't want to do is combine the disappointment with that with an assumption that the company doesn't get you or doesn't care.

29:11And then you get a little snippy, you get, you push too hard, you ask for too many other things to make up for it. And everything just goes, you've got to really come to the table with an open, open heart and, and, and open mind. And implied in this from the two of you, you're also saying, look, you probably get one, one ask here to go back at it. And maybe then a little counter on the ask, but if you are coming back with four or five things, everyone is going to think, oh my God, this is a problem is, is, am I looking at that right or not? I would to argue that no. I mean, you can say, here are all the things that I would love to negotiate on.

29:57Thank you for the offer. And here are all the things that I would really like to change. It's David in my job to say, okay, A, that's a lot of things. That's seven things. So five things, you know what? And they might all be important, but you have to have your priorities because we're all adults here and we know that it's not likely that all of them are about to come true. Yeah. And when you have this problem, do a lot of people go directly to the company or because my thing is they should always go to YouTube first.

30:35Some go directly to the company. Some will work it through us. You know, the things that typically will blow up are about comp or about location and maybe even about title. right we've gone to market with a senior vp marketing title it's offer time you get the offer i really want a chief in there yeah right or i want more money more than what kate or i ever said was even on the table or i know i could i i said i could be there every other week for three days i could be there once once a month for two days those are the moving of the goalposts that can blow this stuff up. And that will often cost you the job, right?