794: Build the Resilience to Match Your Ambition, with Jia Jiang

0:00No pain, no gain. We've all heard that before, and there's a reason we've heard it before, because it's true. One way to achievement is through a lot of pain. Good news, though, there are other ways, too. In this episode, how to harness the ambition you already have through easy discipline. This is Coaching for Leaders, Episode 794. Produced by Innovate Learning. Maximizing human potential.

0:33Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I'm your host, Dave Stachowiak. Leaders aren't born, they're made. And this weekly show helps leaders thrive at key inflection points. One of the realities that happens at an inflection point, whether it is a new challenge, a new opportunity, a new position, or we just find ourselves being challenged in new ways, is that so many of us have such high ambitions for ourselves, for our work, for our learning, for our growth, as we should, right? But the resilience that we often need to match that ambition doesn't show up consistently.

1:16At least it doesn't show up in the long run. A lot of times we are very good at starting strong, but then we fall short. Today, a conversation on how we can help our resilience match our ambition. And I'm so pleased to welcome an expert who's done so much thinking on this is going to help us to do this so effectively. I'm so pleased to welcome to the show Xia Xiong. He is an award-winning speaker, entrepreneur, and the best-selling author of Rejection Proof. His TED Talk is among the top 1 % most viewed of all time, and he has spoken to over 400 ,000 people worldwide. He is also the creator of Rejection Therapy, a platform designed to help people overcome fear and build resilience.

1:57And is the author of Easy Discipline, An Unconventional Way to Achieve Ambitious Things. Ja, what a pleasure to have you on the show. Hey, Dave. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to be here. I am too, because I love the way you think, because it's different than the way I think about so many things. that you have just a wonderful gift for taking some of the conventional wisdom, stories, mantras that we think about and thinking about it in a new way that's so helpful. And one of the stories you talk about in your work that comes out is the ancient Greek story of Sisyphus. I think many people have heard it, but I'm wondering if you could remind us of the story.

2:40but more importantly, perhaps how you think about this story a little differently because you have a way of looking at it that I've never heard before, and I think it's really powerful. Sure. So when you think about Sisyphus, this is a classic story of the man pushing a rock uphill. He's in Greek mythology. Sisyphus was a very smart and even cunning king, and he cheated death. He made Zeus really mad, so the Greek god, and he put a curse on on him and he would push up this rock on the hill forever. Every time before the rock hits the top of the hill, it would roll back down to the bottom and Sisyphus would have to push it again.

3:21And this goes down eternally, right? It's just like all Greek mythology stories. It's meant to teach us something. It teaches us the futility of ambition, right? You try but never win. You almost make it, but you don't. A lot of people take that as they see this in their own lives. They repeat their ambition doesn't come to fruition. The thing is, so that's a classic story, right? I'm sure you've heard of this story. Oh, yeah, yeah. But when I think about this story, I see it otherwise. And I just ask myself a question, what is Sisyphus thinking at that moment? Is he even thinking at all? So if he's not, meaning he's just brain dead right the curse is on him he just does this then i'm like well that's not a tragedy per se it's not even a curse because the guy's dead right he's just like a zombie doing this like a horror show however if he had agency right if he's actually thinking that means he must have chosen to go back down to the bottom and push drop again He's a smart guy, right?

4:27Smart king. He knew this wouldn't succeed. He tried the first time, the hundredth time, and the millionth time, right? He never gets on top. He'd be like, let me try something else. Let me buy some ice cream. Let me get some coffee, you know? Let me get something. Let me try another endeavor. Let me run a marathon instead of pushing the rock up forever. So if the curse is only on the rock, not on him, just he could never get on top. The fact that he's still pushing, it only means one thing. He loves pushing the rocks, right? He's the one who decides to keep pushing, even though he can never win.

5:00Now, the thing is, in real life, if we think about Sisyphus in the real world, I mean, it doesn't exist, right? This is a Greek mythology. But if that person does exist, we would make statues for him. We would think that guy has the best work ethic ever. And that guy will not only get to the top, he will get to one top after another. because with that type of determination and discipline, he would accomplish so many things. But the thing is, real world Sisyphus, like my version of Sisyphus do exist in this world. They're the people who use the love of the work, not just for the ambition to drive them.

5:40Those are the people who actually succeed in the long term. You know, from the outside, you think, wow, they work really hard, like a great work ethic. But if you ask them, they're like, you know, I just love the work. I just want to, I enjoy what I'm doing. I'm using my enjoyment to feel myself. They get to the top of industries. They're the real leaders of the world and they change industries to change the world. So that's how I see my version of Sisyphus. And I think there's so much learning we can go from there. Indeed there is. And I think that goes right to the distinction you paint in your work between hard discipline and easy discipline.

6:16Tell me about that distinction. So heart discipline is this classic idea that we need to have discipline. The discipline is we need to tolerate pain. We need to do things like to succeed, we need to do things we really want to do. I grew up in China. I was trained in this classic Chinese idea. The word is called chiku. It means eating bitterness. It just means you have an ambitious goal, a noble goal. So what you want to do is just do the things you hate, right? If you eat enough bitterness, you come out to the other end, you achieve your goal. So that's, you know, I translate that into heart discipline and the classic way we see discipline.

6:59The thing is, I hate heart discipline. I hate eating bitterness. Me too. Because I'm not good at eating bitterness. I don't want to eat bitterness my whole life. Who wants to do that? And moreover, it doesn't work because you're going against human nature. You look at all these New Year's resolutions we do for us personally, right? And also, people set up these goals, these corporate goals. The thing is, the vast majority of them are not kept. So there's only 9 % of people who make New Year's resolutions to keep them because it's based on hard discipline. You want to lose weight. You want to make more money.

7:38You want to make more sales. So let's do hard things. You can do that for a week or two. And then by the third week, you're like, this is tough. Let me try something else. And then it falls by the wayside. You fail. Now, if you flip that, instead of using hard discipline, instead of saying, I'm just going to have a goal, then try to eat bitterness my way to that goal. What if you have easy discipline? What if you set your goals to be like, I'm going to enjoy this. I'm going to figure out ways to actually love the work, to do the work itself. And I mean, of course, I want to get the result. But let me focus on doing what I'm doing, like the input goals.

8:18And enjoy the input goals. And the outcome will take care of itself if I can do this for long term. So it's much more sustainable. But also, you become much more creative and innovative. Because you love the thing you do. You start experimenting. You start trying. You become thinking like an artist. And then you start changing things. You start doing things that's going with your human nature rather than against it. And that's how you succeed in the long term. Yeah. And going back to the Sisyphus example, it's not about like, okay, I didn't get to the top of the hill. It's enjoying the process of moving the stone up the hill, right?

8:55And I think what's really interesting about this, and you zero-enounced this so much in your work is the cultural aspects and narrative, especially in Western culture around this, that we all have sort of bought into. And you have a paragraph in the book that just paints this picture beautifully, and I'm going to read it. You say, moreover, pain tolerance is much more admired and celebrated because hard discipline goes against human nature. It's seen as a superior and even superhuman ability. If someone tells you she has achieved greatness because she can tolerate much more pain than you, you tell her she is a superhero.

9:35But if another person tells you that she has achieved success because she loves her work so much that she can't stop, you call her a workaholic and tell her to see a therapist. And I read that and I was like, wow, it's so true, isn't it? That's how our society paints this picture, doesn't it? Absolutely, absolutely. And if you see, especially in the past 10, 15 years, you see these Navy SEALs and monks, they write books about how they're declaring war against themselves, right? They've gone through extraordinary lengths, those things that sound amazing and hard. And a lot of people are trying to follow that step.

10:16And what they end up happening is they can get motivated and inspired, but if they hate what they're doing, they have better lives. And they quit. And they quit pretty fast. And they started losing confidence. So I think it's counterproductive to glorify this pain-eating, this self-war proclaiming type of way of life. I really feel like we should develop more people who just figure out ways to love, to love their way to the top rather than suffer their way to the top. I'm pro-loving. I'm anti-suffering. Me too. But like you, I've been down the other path as well for a long time. And there's a story that you tell about just your own career in the book that resonates with me because I have almost not the exact same story, but a very similar story where you essentially got fired and rehired for a job in the same day.

11:14Could you tell us, could you tell me what happened? Like, I just think it's a fascinating look at like this distinction between hard and easy discipline. Yeah, I'm a very ambitious person. You know, I met Bill Gates when I was 14 and I saw him speak. and I was like, I'm going to be the Chinese version of Bill Gates. I'm going to build my own company. I'm going to replicate his life. I read everything possible about him. I was like, I mean, he's American. And I'm like, I'm going to go to America. I'm going to, he learned computer science. I'm not going to do computer science. He went to Harvard.

11:44Well, I didn't get into Harvard. But you know what? I'm going to start going to college when I was 17. I'm going to be this boy genius just like him. I'm going to learn programming. I'm going to build my own version of Microsoft. Let me just replicate his success so I can. And so I modeled everything after Bill Gates. And as it turned out, there's a big problem with that. It was, I hated programming. And I was not good at it. I was not made for it. My mind is way more like attuned to writing and verbal communication rather than computer programming. So, but the thing is, I had this ambition. So I'm like, I'm going to suffer through this.

12:22I'm going to just do the hard work. And in the end, I suffered so much in college. Not only I didn't get what I wanted, you know, my mental health suffered. I almost couldn't graduate. By the skin of my teeth, I graduated with a computer science degree and then got my job as a programmer. And I kept suffering. I'd be like, and I was hating myself. I'm like, why am I not succeeding at this? I worked so hard. Why am I not Bill Gates yet? You know, and then one day, so I kind of, I lost one job after another. And one day I have another job and I had a good time hanging out with the people and people really like me and they saw how hard I work.

13:01So my boss called me in and he's like, you know, consider yourself fired. I'm like, OK, again, I'm fired again. What's new? But then he said, Ja, I really like you. We all like you. We see how hard you work. You're genuine with people. So what if we give you another job? Like we hire you right here for another job. I'll give you the same salary. but instead of you doing programming how about you work with our customers with our clients you you write you you write software or you write scripts for them and help them to solve their problems and i will come up with a name called client services engineer i've never heard of client services engineer since and before so he just made up the job for me you know because he like me.

13:49And you know what? After that job change, I succeeded. I excelled. I love that job. I love to solve problems. And that's where the first time in my life I felt, wow, maybe it's not me. Maybe I'm not just dumb. Maybe I'm not just like, you know, couldn't make it. I have all kind of flaws and I used to focus on all that. But now I'm doing something that I love, right? Working with people, working with customers, I can actually do this. I can succeed. And people, people love me. My new manager loved me. My client loved me. I succeeded and my confidence grew. And so that, that goes to show that sometimes it's the thing that, that you do.

14:31If you hate the thing you do, or if you're not good at the thing you do, it doesn't matter how hard you work at it. Sometimes if you just tweak, you can go from a B player to an A player. And because you have that desire to succeed, it will go far. So that was my story of getting fired and hired on the spot, which is kind of crazy. Yeah, indeed. Well, the kinds of folks who are part of our community are really ambitious, hardworking, motivated people, folks who have done, like me and you, the hard discipline things really well over their careers. And they often fall into the trap, though, of when they are trying to, they're at an inflection point of trying to shift.

15:20And you talk about this through a Chinese term called the high eyes, low hands disease. Tell me about that term and what that means. So it's a classic word that describes people who have a lot of ambition, right? They have great ideas. They have a goal, noble goal, but they can't execute, right? They can't do it. The problem is a lot of times we think ambition is good, but having ambition without embracing the work to get there, that's actually a curse because wherever you are and you see you're not getting closer to your goal, you become very anxious. You become, you lose confidence. You're like, okay, maybe this is not what I meant to do this, right?

16:11And then you started just trying and then in the end you give up. That's the classic high eyes, low hands disease. And I see this everywhere. Individuals, leaders, they have ambition. They come back from a conference. They hear a podcast and they're like all fired up. I'm like, I'm going to do this. And then they have a new goal and then they don't like the work. They don't embrace the work. They lack the result. What ends up happening is they abandon it, and then they chase the next thing, and they go on this loop. So in this way, they are almost like a Sisyphus, like a classic version of Sisyphus, which is a tragedy.

16:48You got to embrace the work. You got to be able to internalize the path as your destination rather than your ultimate where you just want to end up. If you embrace the path, you go way past your destination you set for yourself. You start discovering things. You start going to places that you couldn't even think possible. I mean, it might not even be your imagination because you can go far. This is absolutely the number one stopping point I see for our Academy of members that I work with daily on what keeps them from making progress. And I think BJ Fogg came on the show years ago, and he had this great point that we all tend to overestimate our future motivation.

17:32And that I think what you just said lines up so perfectly with that. Like, we have this high ambition for ourselves, as we should, right? And yet, then when we get into the work, we haven't really thought about the path, the work, the journey as the part that really is the part to embrace. We're only thinking about the ambition, having our expectations really high. And there's a huge disconnect there. And so many people either get stopped there permanently, or it really is a lot of friction on helping them to get started. And of course, there's ways around this and ways to approach it better, which we're going to talk about.

18:15But it is such a common thing we all run into. I run into it too all the time. And it's an easy trap to fall into. A hundred percent. And the thing is, when people tell you, right, their big goal, when they tell themselves their big goal, right, and what ended up happening is they receive a lot of dopamine with that proclamation, you know, that we were setting that goal. and then it's almost as if setting that goal would give them the goal and our brain will feel that satisfaction but the problem is the reality hits right what you're when you're not getting closer to that goal because the work you're doing you don't enjoy it you you kind of you try it and you try it again you try something else and didn't work and you get frustrated that's where the problem occurs you're not getting dopamine through the work itself you're getting dopamine from that imagine it imagined end result so there that disconnect is really what the high eyes low and hands disease is about the trick here though is try to get dopamine try to get satisfaction from the work itself right how can you build some sort of a loop build some sort of momentum build some sort of satisfaction from the thing, everyday thing you do.

19:29If you can do that, then you can go far. It's back to Sisyphus again of like the presence, the motivation is the moment of the pushing the rock up the hill versus thinking like my goal is just to get the rock to the top of the hill and it's all the pain and suffering to get there. It's actually embracing the process of it. And I don't think there's a better analogy for this than something you talk about in the book, which is The Game of Catan, which is sort of ironic because I, for the holidays this year, bought our family The Game of Catan because someone had shared with me that it was really a great game and we have not opened it and played it yet.

20:08So this is really helpful to think about what this would look like. And it is a very popular game. I know many people have played it. And it illustrates this concept and thinking about the game and how you are successful. And I wondered if you could illustrate that for us. Yeah. So I first played this Catan. It was called Settler of Catan back then. So in my book, I wrote a whole feature on why this game became successful because it really mirrors lives, right? The best games mirrors lives. And in this case, Catan is a great game for business, for entrepreneurship, and even for leadership because everyone has the same turn, right?

20:52Everyone has the same action. They have the same. It's a turn-based game. And everyone can, they can gather, you know, they can roll the dice and see what kind of resource they get. They build stuff. They trade. Now, the trade is the big part. The people who play Catan well are the very aggressive people. Meaning aggressive, meaning they're aggressively building up momentum. At the early stage, they try to negotiate. You can trade whatever resource you have or the resource you need, right? The more trade you do earlier, the more things you build, the more cities and settlement you build. When you build them, they actually give you more resource, right?

21:31So the passive player will just sit there and try to get lucky, right? And they can get lucky if the dice roll their way, they get resources. If they don't, they don't. And they just sit there. They just hope, again, they hope things happen to them. But the people who win are the people who are making things happen. They trade. They build things early. And I've seen people like as threat. Like they would cajole. They would beg to make those trades. And they would try to even borrow. I've seen people actually say, I'll pay you$5 if you trade with me right now. That's crazy. And I've seen people threaten you.

22:09It's like, you know what? The secret you told me, if you don't trade with me, I'll tell your girlfriend. And I've seen that. But those are the people who win. Because they build up, if you build momentum, especially early, those momentum will start catching on its own. Those people who are aggressive early, they build up things early. Later on, you see the things they build, the assets they build, started bringing more resource to them themselves. Now, I'll give you an example in a workplace, right? Let's say you get hired to a new place. Most people would want to put their head down and to say, all right, I get to work.

22:48I get to know the workplace. I get to work. I try to perform well, right? You're motivated and stuff. But the people who are really, they excel later, not even later, in the pretty near future, you start seeing them making differences, are the people who spend the first maybe month or 50 days or 100 days just talking to as many people as possible. They expand their network. because the people you know early, they will tell you more information. They will bring you more resource. They make your job easier. And your network expands. And then you have more influence. When you have more influence at work, that means the thing becomes easier for you, right?

23:32The things that take someone else, maybe two days to get things done, for me, just a couple of phone calls because you know more people. So those are the people who build up early momentum. and I call this momentum loop, right? The loop started going faster and faster because of the early asset you built in. So I encourage people, whether it's leaders or people in whatever job they do, don't think about just doing the same thing over and over again, try to linearly succeed. Try to build up momentums at the very beginning. And I mean, if you miss the beginning, it's fine. You can build up momentum today, right?

24:09and get to know people, build up assets that will bring more resources, that's how you succeed. I see this every single day, exactly what you described with leaders who are trying to shift and change their behavior. And folks who are in our academy will sometimes ask me, what is the difference maker between the people who are successful in this and the people who are less successful? And my answer is always the same. It's the people who show up and keep going and trying new things and iterate and consistently and keep the momentum going. And the people who try to start off by shifting something as leaders, and they try to perfectly plan everything out and get it exactly ideal and get it all perfect, tend to go slower.

24:54And the people who almost universally make tons of progress are the ones who they start, they try something, it works or it doesn't. They quickly iterate, they try something else, they start talking to people, they talk to They talk to other members in our academy. They're working with their colleagues. They are doing the momentum loop you talk about and going back to the game at Catan. They're the players that jump in and are the most active and are asking questions and they're negotiating and they're having conversation. And inevitably, those are the people who make the most progress. It's again and again so consistent how momentum really makes a big difference.

25:33You mentioned something really interesting and I think it's worth talking about. It's this idea of grand planning. You know, I've heard so many people with big ambitions, you know, leaders and also aspiring leaders. And, you know, as people want to have a great career, people want to make things happen. They will start telling me this step by step plan. Right. I'm going to do this. Then when this happens and become really big, I'm going to do that. And I'm going to leverage that into this and become really big. And then I do that. so and i'm looking at this like none of that's going to happen you know there's i mean i'm sure you've heard the saying you know everyone has a plan until you get punched in the mouth the life punches in the mouth all the time what you want to do is you want to spar with reality you want to be able to instead of just saying i'm gonna have this plan and somehow this is going to lead me to an amazing destination what if you just focus on what you do right now like Like build momentum.

26:28Like do things. Really just do things. Do things more faster, more aggressively than other people. Build more relationships. Get more support. And get things done. Build up resources and assets. When you do that, when you catch momentum, you start like those plans will go by the wayside. Because you are exceeding them. But also when you do that though, other people started just following you. People are like, oh, he knows what he's doing. She's getting things done. She has influence. I'm going to follow her. So you see that all the time. The people who are aggressive, who are making things happen, they start to catch momentum.

27:08The momentum will carry them to places that a lot of times a whole team or even themselves are like, oh, I don't know where this is going, but it's going to great places. So I'm anti-grand planning, you know, this step-by-step grand planning. I'm very much pro-momentum than be iterative, be adaptable. Yeah. Well, and you invite us to really embrace this momentum loop. And there's three lenses that you suggest that we lean in on in this. And I think you've mentioned all three of them already. Relationship, support, and knowledge. You said relationships a few minutes ago and mentioned just the building relationships, especially at an inflection point.

27:51Maybe you've taken on a new job. You've got a new team. You've got a new set of responsibilities. That's the place to lean on this. A lot of people miss this, don't they? Absolutely. Relationship is really just everything. Like a lot of times we go to work, we focus on tasks, right? That's what we're getting paid for. No one's paying us to having coffee with colleagues or other industry leaders. No one's doing that. People are like, I'm paying to get this thing done. But the thing is, the people who get things done in the long term, they really know the power of assets. And relationship is probably the most important assets of them all.

28:25The people you get to talk to, right? The coffee you're having with people. The Zoom meetings you have with people away from you. Just as Chaz, you learn so much about the industry. You learn so much about what other people are doing. You learn so much about within your own company, right? Across different teams, you know, the different stakeholders. and what they are doing and what are dreams. And they can influence you both from a strategic long-term level, but also on a tactical level, right? What you are doing every day. And those people will teach you. So spend the time, get to know people.

29:01I try to, you know, I'm not saying I'm doing this amazingly, but I try, right? Because I'm down, deep down, I'm an introvert, right? I'd rather not talk to people than do. But I have to fight over this part of my nature and I come up with tools for it. But I would know any time in my life, I have this amazing turn of event, right? I have this amazing elevation in my career. It's because of I know someone. Because someone who will be like, okay, I know someone who can help you with this. And those relationships turn into amazing elevations in my own career and my own life. So, yeah, build your relationship.

29:41They are like the little houses, the little cities, the little settlements in South Africa town. They bring you assets over and over. And the same thing for them. It makes your life more fulfilling as well. And when you help them. You say support is also important. What does support look like in the context of momentum? Support, okay, a couple of contexts, right? So one is with my own work. So I'm a writer. And a lot of people, when they think about writing, they think about going away, just coming up with a book and then publish the book. Right. And then hope and pray that someone will read their book.

30:20Throughout the years, I try to get support from people that I'm doing. I write blogs, you know, and I try to connect with, I try to gather emails with my speaking engagement. And I try to gather momentum this way, you know. So when I'm writing books, I already have the support system. When I'm having these people that follow me and I'm on my email list, they give me feedback on what I write. And they're like, maybe they like this, maybe they don't. And I will feel like, oh, they really like what I'm saying. So a lot of my new book is based on this momentum from my newsletter. The things I'm writing, people are responding to the most.

31:00People feel they can. And those ideas turn into this book. So my book is a combination of momentum, not something completely new. And the same thing with companies, right? A lot of times if you want to be in a place where you just close your doors and build this amazing product. But I would rather get people behind this first, get behind the concept first, and then iterate and support you. And then when you have the momentum from people who give you feedback, give you support of a product or your career or whatever you're doing, then you can go way much faster and you end up to places that are much closer to what people want anyway.

31:43And then you also highlight knowledge as important in momentum. And you write on this, when you accumulate knowledge and know-how, your later actions become that much more powerful. And I read that and I thought, wow, couldn't agree with it more. And I wonder how that shifts in the AI age. So many of us now have access to so much more knowledge and context that we didn't have in traditional search just a couple of years ago. How at all does that change how you think about knowledge and momentum? So a quick story. So I became famous because I did this thing called 100 Days of Rejection Therapy over a decade ago.

32:23I would feel myself getting rejected every day because I want to overcome my fear. and most people when i started this thing most people would be like you know this is crazy you're so much you're you're you're so brave by doing this i can never ask for rejections for 100 days right and but then i said actually no i had so much fun because i built momentum from early on right the first day i asked for a hundred dollars from a stranger the second day i tried to get a burger refill and then i tried to get a a haircut at pet's market i had to speak uh you know on Costco, go to Costco and ask for, to speak on their intercom.

33:00They think all these are crazy stuff, but every time when they say no, I learn something. I learn, okay, how I can do better, how I can actually try these things I, I've read in the book somewhere about how to negotiate, how do I apply that knowledge here? And quickly people start to say yes to me. I got a lot of yeses. I play soccer in someone's backyard. I flew a plane. I drove a police car. They said yes to me because I started applying this knowledge that I learned from early to later. And by the end, I feel I could ask anything from anyone, anywhere. And there's a decent chance to say yes to me because I applied those knowledge.

33:35It's like a snowball of knowledge it can apply. Now, if you're talking about AI, right? AI is really interesting. It knows almost anything, right? It feels like it knows almost anything. But the knowledge it has is very general. It's very bland, meaning it applies to everyone. It doesn't necessarily apply to you. The things what you are doing is you want to generate momentum and the knowledge that you generate from your actions are very specific. Does AI, would the AI know this? Yeah, if you give me enough prompt, it will tell you that. However, it will never get there organically. It doesn't matter what kind of a question you ask.

34:17It doesn't matter what you do. AI will not give you that specific knowledge and momentum that you will get by trying your own things. By really just, you know, when rubber meets the road, right? When your idea and your work see real world, right? Then the knowledge, the momentum is very personalized. And AI will never be able to do that because AI does not have lived experience. It can just give you really this common knowledge, This thing that, and I would say AI is like a 90th percentile smart person when it comes to knowing. I mean, it knows a lot of things, right? But if you ask AI to give you ideas, it generally gives you ideas that are pretty bland and applicable to most people.

35:02It doesn't have your momentum. It doesn't have your lived experience. Jia Jiang is the author of Easy Discipline, an Unconventional Way to Achieve Ambitious Things. Jia, thank you so much for your work. Thank you for having me. I had a great time. Me too.

35:23two thoughts coming out of this conversation the first one is i had the privilege of seeing a number of jah's messages to audiences and giving keynotes on this topic he really has so much energy and humor it is so fun to learn from him and if your organization's looking for someone who brings this message in a fun and exciting way i think his speaking page is worth a look i'm linking to it in the episode notes. And the other thought I keep coming back to and reflecting on this conversation is the importance of movement and trying things and even making mistakes rather than standing still. It is probably one of the biggest things I see that holds leaders back.

36:03And that's because a lot of us, me too, got trained to be very careful, methodical, plan things out. And in a lot of our technical work, especially earlier in our careers, that pays off for us and some really wonderful dividends. But when it comes to working with people and at the inflection point so many people are at in our listening community, movement is so important, even making those mistakes in order to learn and to grow, as you heard in this conversation. And it's one of the reasons in our academy that we're so intentional about movement and five-minute small actions every day, consistency over intensity in order to develop and get better at the discipline we talked about in this conversation.

36:43And if getting some support on that is helpful for you right now, go over to coachingforleaders.com slash academy, and you can find a place there for some more information, but also a place to add yourself onto our early invitation list for the next time that we open up applications to the academy. Again, that's at coachingforleaders.com slash academy. If this conversation was helpful to you, three other episodes I think will also be a benefit. One of them is episode 507, how to change your behavior. BJ Fogg was my guest on that episode. We talked about the importance of starting small, his book, Tiny Habits, a great way just to begin and take that invitation for five minutes or less to shift each day.

37:26I think it's a great compliment to this conversation, episode 507 for that. Also recommended episode 747, How to Get Out of a Rut. And Lori Lacombe was my guest on that episode, and we talked about the importance of experiments, trying things, being willing to fail, and to do that in small ways so that you are continually learning and growing. Again, a great compliment to this conversation, and I think a really simple and powerful way to begin this process, episode 747. And then finally, I am thinking about the conversation recently with Marcus Buckingham, episode 778, how to help people flourish.

38:04We talked in this conversation today about the importance of easy discipline and finding work you'll love. And Marcus has a wonderful message about love and flourishing in that episode. And again, I think it just pairs so wonderfully with the message today. All those episodes you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. And if you haven't done so before, your free membership will give you access to the entire library, searchable by topic, everything I've aired since 2011 weekly here on the podcast. You can find just about any topic on leadership you're looking for, and you can access all of it by setting up your free membership.

38:40Go to coachingforleaders.com. That'll give you access just in moments to the free membership, plus tons of other resources. My weekly Focus 5 message, all of our free audio courses, my own personal library, tons more resources there, coachingforleaders.com for access to all of it. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger. Next Monday, I'm glad to welcome Neil Shore to the podcast. We're going to be talking about the question that frees up an hour a day, if you can get good at asking it of others, and most importantly, yourself. Join me for that conversation with Neil, and I'll see you back on Monday.