EP 13 - Special Guest: Jeb Brooks + Analysis of the Viral B777 Horseshoe Bay Low-Pass Video

28:57So, I mean, it's really kind of a shame. I spent a lot of time and work and money and everything putting it together. And now it's gone. And it's really frigging disappointing, man. Yeah, it really is. Well, let's see how it turns out. Let's see how it turns out. We'll take it to the Supreme Court. Okay. So with that said, let's go to our interview with Jeb Brooks. It was a great one. Hope you enjoy it. I don't know if we'll be back next week, maybe, maybe the week after, but we're going to try to maintain an every other week while we're, while, you know, through the course of the summer and then back in the fall when things go back to normal, we'll try to get back on a weekly schedule, workload permitting.

29:40But thanks for your patience. Thanks for listening and enjoy the interview with Jeb Brooks. We'll see y 'all.

29:53All right. Today on Cockpit Casual, the podcast, we have a very special guest that I've been waiting to interview for a long time. We finally made it happen. It is the great Jeb Brooks. Welcome to the pod, Jeb. Thank you so much, Steve and Bob. This is beyond exciting. I am such a huge fan of your work. So it is an honor to be able to participate today. I appreciate that, man. We've been in talks behind the scenes for a couple of years now. I think in the early cockpit casual days, you reached out to me on the socials and, hey, I love what you're doing. And I was like, oh, man, like a real YouTuber is reaching out.

30:30And we've teased the idea of having you do like a trip review on a ferry flight. And we got to do it. I mean, it's definitely going to happen. There's some challenges to overcome, but I think we'll find the right one eventually. I am all over that. I will eat your Domino's pizza and whatever else you produce, and I will give it a Jeb score. Perfect. Excellent. I can already predict, like, you know, the luxury, the food, like that's, you know, I mean, you're roughing it. It's like camping. However, having an entire airplane cabin to yourself is also kind of nice. That's going to bode well for the seat score.

31:12The question, though, guys, is all about service. How's the service? Well, I mean, it can be as good as you want because you are the cabin attendant. You have full control of the galley. I can teach you how to use the ovens, but that's about it and not well. If it has ovens, what are you talking about? If it has them. Sometimes we heat our food on the top of the panel. We let solar heating work plus windshield heat combination. I mean, actually, that's an interesting thing to discover if we do this. We'll heat a meal the old-fashioned way and with the ovens, and we'll see what tastes better. The nomadic way versus the traditional.

31:53I love it. Okay, nice. So if our listeners, viewers aren't familiar, which I highly doubt, Jeb has a YouTube channel with over a million subscribers called Greener Grass. and he is a full-time YouTuber. And actually, it's quite different from what we do, but at the same time, it's not. There's a lot of parallels. And one of the things that I've, and I've thought about this a lot because I think that our styles are kind of similar in a lot of ways. The way we structure our videos, the way we talk, informative but entertaining. But beyond that, where the real parallel is, I think between between Cockpit Casual and Greener Grass is we're both adventurers.

32:44We're both travelers and we're telling a travel story from the perspective of the mode of transportation. Right. But the difference is that we're coming from two very different perspectives. We're coming from a crew perspective because we have this unique ability to showcase what a crew does on large aircraft because we don't have an employer, you know, and you're really focused on the passenger experience. And I dabble in PAXX. I do. I mean, there are videos where I'm iPhone recording. Usually complaining about something. Usually complaining. You're not on Qatar in a Q-suite is what you're doing.

33:21I'm like the cynical version of Jeb Bruggs. And you both have beards. You both kind of match. I feel kind of left out here. I should have grown a beard. We're a couple of gray hairs with beards, man. I mean, the similarities continue. I got to take a quick aside. So we recently moved up to Washington, D.C. for a lot of reasons, but mostly just convenience and for airports. And I went to get my driver's license. I filled out the form and I didn't even think about it. I wrote that my hair was brown. And as soon as I went up, the lady just started laughing at me. I mean, I think I've got brown hair until I start editing a video.

33:57And then I realize, no. Both. I got brown hair on like 30 percent of my mustache. Right here and here. Yeah, we had the same pattern too, man. You know, it's funny. I actually made the changes recently. I mean, I've been gray. I started going gray at age 26, and it was a little bit on the sides, and it was a little bit on the top, and then before I knew it, you know, after I had kids and stuff, like that was like the real downfall. But just recently, my driver's license still says brown because I haven't renewed that in a million years. My pilot certificate in medical now says gray. Congratulations.

34:34You're only a dozen. You're probably a grown-up. I'm older than both of you, and I don't, well, I got a little bit. Yeah, we just had your 60th birthday party this weekend. Bob, you're basically a senior citizen with brown hair, and you look younger and better than us. You look younger than both of us, without a doubt. It's the M &Ms. It is the M &Ms, I'm sure. All right. So, Jeb, you did not start life as a broadcaster. certainly not as a YouTuber. You got into it in middle age, kind of like I did, and kind of like Bob did. What, like, where, like, what was, first of all, did you grow up in North Carolina?

35:15I did. Born and raised in Greensboro, North Carolina, which was a great place to grow up, and a really cool sort of mid-sized southern city. Not a lot of aviation, though, when I was coming up. It's really changed. There's a lot going on in Greensboro now. You have the Honda Jet Factory? That's right. Jet Zero is coming in. Is it HACO that's there with the big MRO? That's exactly right. So there's a lot going on at that airport, believe it or not. But yeah, so I was working in consulting, for want of a better term. I could get into the technical details, but that's really the best way to put it, which had me traveling a lot.

35:56Now, I had always loved airplanes, like so many kids. It's just such a miracle. You're looking up at these things and seeing them fly. And I can remember I was at a conference in San Francisco out by the airport, and it was a very boring conference. And so I stepped outside of this thing, and this was probably circa 2009. nine. And I was looking up in the, in the United 747s were departing over the Pacific. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I want to do that. And I didn't know what that was. Like I, I, I don't have the proclivity to be a pilot. I, I, I have, have certainly taken flying lessons. I've, I've soloed, I've done all of that.

36:43It's just not for me. And I'm like, so that planted that seed of, I want to do that. And then fast forward a few years, I started watching YouTube. And there were two or three guys who were making these videos about their trips. It sort of evolved out of the forums where people would make trip reports and then it evolved into blogs. And eventually they were, you know, Sam Chui or Paul Lucas or Paul Stewart, Dennis Bunnick back in circa 2016. And so I stopped watching cable television. I cut the cord and just watched YouTube. And these, yeah, right. It's the only sign of advanced technology use in my world.

37:31And so I was traveling a lot for this work and I was starting to get kind of resentful because nobody had made a video about the Air France A380. Like, why are these guys – somebody needs to do this. and um i ended up having a project come up in portugal and i found a pretty reasonable relatively reasonable uh fare that took me from dulles to paris on the a380 in la premiere in the original first class uh and i was like i'm gonna try this and i remember i was so nervous there's this like it's like side room for for the first class passengers to like sip champagne and eat whatever. And I was the only person in this room, but I was still, I was like hiding behind a chair, talking to my camera.

38:23And, uh, and that was really, I would say that was really the start of it. It was, it was just, I was making content and I bet you feel the same way. I was making content that I felt like I wanted to see. It was a perspective that I was not seeing out there in the world. And I thought maybe I could try to do it in a unique way. And really it was kind of born out of that. Yeah. I mean, so your background is in like sales and consulting. Did I read that you're also a lawyer? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I like to say a recovering lawyer. So you're, I mean, so you're a guy who is comfortable talking. I mean, that's a big part of this.

39:01For sure. Yeah, it is. Yeah. I think that's a comfortable talking and have enough. I think there's a balance have enough ego to think okay what I have is to say is maybe worth putting on the internet but not so much ego that I'm not willing to like learn from my mistakes kind of thing right right no absolutely there's totally a balance there and that's been something that I mean I've obviously experienced as well it's funny Bob not too long ago Bob posted an Instagram video maybe seven or eight years ago. And it was a Dash 8, which Bob is not rated as PIC on. He has an SIC. Like we trained him on it and he got his SIC.

39:43It's one of the few airplanes that I can fly that Bob doesn't. And he came along for the ride. He was in the right seat. And he, you know, he flew jet streams way, way, way back, like in the, like just after the Wright brothers days. And, and, but other than that, Bob's experience with turbine powered aircraft have been, you know, jets. Like he went right from there to like the 727 and DC-9 and MD-11 and then everything else thereafter. So, you know, this was a throwback like to the very early days for Bob. And he, I remember he was, I wasn't making any content at this point in time at all. I didn't even have accounts.

40:20Like I, I didn't have an Instagram. I learned by watching him. I had Facebook, but I got off of it because it was just led to problems. I wasn't on I was a lurker on Twitter. I just didn't I didn't have a social following or profile or anything like that. And Bob and I have joked for years like what we do is the book that can never be written. Right. Like for a variety of reasons. Many of which are like we would either be jailed or stripped of our licenses. So in the early days. It was past the statute of limitations. We always have to add that disclaimer. But so anyway, the long the story that I'm getting at is so Bob posted this video and he was we're flying along in the dash eight.

41:06And here's Steve. And I'm just like, I lean over. I'm like, hi. Like, it's stupid. Like I said, like nothing. It was clear that I was uncomfortable speaking on camera. And I was. And that's one of the things when I decided to start making these videos, that was something that I had to really do a gut check and say, Am I willing to talk, to do the voiceovers, but beyond that, to even be myself on camera? And I wasn't sure I had it in me. And it actually took a few videos to really get more comfortable with that. I wouldn't say I'm completely comfortable now. I was about to say, that's pretty impressive if you got comfortable after just a few videos.

41:45Right. I'm at 300 and I'm still not. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot that stays in the cutting room floor, believe me. Yeah. I think I'm very fortunate in that I'm frequently approached by people who want to start doing this. And it's always fun to chat with them about that process, because not only do you have to get comfortable, but you sort of have to be comfortable talking into the void. Because for a long time, nobody's watching. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to not care for the feedback of likes or reviews or anything like that. It's just you're talking into oblivion and you got to be good with that.

42:27Yeah, that's an interesting thing, actually. I never really thought about it that way. Like my evolution was I started making these one-minute tours. So like I started – Bob got me into Instagram like on a trip. We were down in South America. I remember I was like, what's Instagram? He was like, oh, you post pictures online. So I started posting pictures and that didn't take off. It was like friends and family. I mean I had like an account with like 10 followers. I mean, I had like my kids and my wife following me. So Instagram didn't take off for me. But I was a lurker on Twitter from like the, you know, like the first Trump election, like just watching the horror show unfold.

43:02And I didn't post anything. And but then I started seeing aviation stuff come up on my Twitter because I followed Ostrower. That was actually the first follow that I had. Another of my heroes. Yeah. Have you met John? He's such a good dude. Yeah. John is a great friend now. Yeah. Same. Same. I mean, just an epic, epic, intelligent guy. Just he's exactly what the aviation media industry needs. And he was he was like he really, I think, built quite a foundation using Twitter. Yeah. So I'm not surprised you that that was part of your foundation, too. Yep. So it was him. It was Jason Rabinowitz, airline flyer and Ian Petschnik.

43:44So so I'm watching those guys. And then I and Scotty Bateman. And I started just taking still photos on some of these ferry flights. And like the ones that really got people's attention were like the empty cabins. Right. So I'd post like a photo of like an empty triple seven or an empty seven three or like an all white livery Airbus passing through Majuro. And people were like, whoa, that's different. And so really quickly that exploded. And it was like before before too long, I had like eight to ten thousand followers. And there were just people that were avgeeks. And then I kind of took it to the next level and I started doing these one minute tours like prior to flying the trip.

44:28And when I was doing that, where this connects is, that was when I started feeling comfortable talking because I had this known audience. Like there were these avgeeks that would ask me questions in the comments and I'd answer the questions and we'd get into debates. And so it wasn't like talking into the void for me. It was like talking to a group of friends. That's cool. That's really cool. And I think because you brought that unique perspective that really almost nobody else could bring, you kind of accelerated through that time period in a way. Definitely. And so by the time it got to YouTube, like YouTube was for me, it was like the next it was the next logical progression because I had all these stories that I wanted to tell.

45:12And I didn't want them to just be about the airplanes because the airplanes for me. And I've said this time and again, the airplanes for me are kind of incidental almost, which is weird. And people almost get like a little like what? Like I didn't become a pilot because because of airplanes. I became a pilot because of my desire to travel and see the world. I grew up completely isolated from that. Like, we didn't have a lot of money, and we didn't travel. We did road trips to Florida every now and then, to Georgia. By the time I graduated high school, I had been on an airplane like three times.

45:50Seriously. Like, I just was not exposed to it. Did you do a lot of traveling when you were younger with your family? Some. So I think part of this foundation for me, that's a good question. So my father was traveling a lot as a kid. And so I got to take a couple of trips with him, not many. And that was always amazing because, again, I grew up just fascinated by airplanes. And I think that, you know, Mike Downey? Okay, so Canadian guy. He's got a really great channel and does some really cool stuff that's kind of adjacent to what we do. Not quite the overlap, but a really cool guy. And he calls what we do.

46:36I love this word, and I wish that I'd come up with it, but it's Mike Downey's, transportainment. That's good. Where the transportation is the conduit through which the storytelling comes. And so for us, I've always thought about it with, you know, we, as you mentioned, we're so kindly mentioned, not only do we make videos about airplanes, but also trains and cruise ships. It's like the trip itself, even buses, the trip itself, it's not the best, but it happens. More questions coming on that. There's a beginning, middle and end, and it kind of supports the storytelling. and I think that's a fun part of what this world does and I've said this before what I love the most and this is going to tie in Steve to what you said earlier what I love the most about what we do is there are very few things in the world that are like this you walk into a door that door gets closed or in your case you close the door You all do a bunch of stuff.

47:46I sit down and enjoy watching some movies and, you know, eating some food and doing whatever. And then that time passes. The same door opens up and you walk out into a completely different world. It's a freaking miracle. Yeah, it is. It's time travel and it's a wild experience. I think about that every time I fly. Because, you know, half the time we're doing what you're doing. And we're in the back flying around on commercial flights. Yeah. And I love to hear, Bob, you say that you think about that every time because there's so many people that watch our content, and I imagine it's the same for you, who don't, for whatever reason, get to travel as much as we do.

48:32And I think that miracle – I mean, I get goosebumps. I'm getting goosebumps right now just talking about this because it's such – it's so amazing. I mean, someday maybe there'll be a little booth you can walk in, press a button, and poof, you're somewhere else. I hope not. Exactly. I hope not, too. We were talking about that. We were in Japan last week, and it takes you a little time to get over the – I don't really fully believe in jet lag. We can get into that if you want to. But it takes you a little time to get backgrounded where you are, and I think that's good. I think it's good to have that earned recovery from literally time traveling around the planet.

49:17Yeah. Right, because it wasn't so long ago that a journey like that, if possible, would take months and not hours. Or impossible. The things that people go through on that journey to get there was, you know, I mean, in some ways we're almost summoning that vibe of the, you know, the destination isn't necessarily the journey type vibe, right? And yes, it's shorter now, but that doesn't mean that it's not integral to the story and that it's not fascinating. I mean, a lot more happened when traversing the oceans, you know, in a steamship, I would assume, than what happens if you sleep through, you know, a 12-hour flight in a first-class cabin.

50:06But that's not to say that there aren't still stories to be told and things to be—experiences to be collected and expressed from that process. I think I think along those same lines, as you were talking about, Jeb, is is, you know, we take it for granted that we can jump on these airplanes and fly all over the world and enjoy the service and talk about all of these things. But I've got I've got a large following on TikTok and most of those followers are non-aviation people. There are people fascinated with travel and all of these places that we go because I've found that a lot of them are people that don't have the ability to travel for a variety of reasons.

50:53A lot of times it's health. Sometimes it's money. Sometimes it's the place that they live in in the world. Yeah. They can't get a visa to travel. And so I get a lot of comments that, you know, thank you for putting this out. I'm able to see the world through your eyes kind of a thing. And, you know, and I don't take that for granted. And that's why I keep, you know, putting content out there. Yeah, I think that's such a great point. I mean, you know, we get this a lot in our world. I mean, like sometimes people will observe. I almost said criticize, but I'll say observe that I tend to be maybe a little overly positive about things that happen.

51:36But it's, again, talking about delicate balances. I mean, there are a lot of people who watch our stuff in the same boat who don't get the opportunity to do this. And, you know, if I, oh, the champagne was room temperature. What? Like, really? I mean, this is, again, back to what we're talking. This is a, it's a miracle that, who cares about the champagne? We're getting to like transport ourselves around the world. It's so amazing. God, amazing. Inside of a technicological piece of art. I have to remind myself of that same thing every time, like, the Wi-Fi won't connect and I'm throwing a temper tantrum in my seat.

52:12Well, I'm old enough to remember a time when there wasn't even Wi-Fi. Yes. I remember times before lie-flat seating. I mean, you know, we were out doing this stuff back when business class was just a little bit of a wider, you know, seat that reclined slightly further. I mean, it's really involved. Yeah. Well, I'm not that old, Bob. Yeah, I'm not there either. We just found a line. That's the mark. I mean, maybe on ferry flights. Phone books were okay. Phone books were okay. Smoking sections, we're not. So, you know, before I want to get into like the whole, like the building of the channel and like that evolution and how that worked for you in a second.

52:58But I want to start by saying one of the other things that that really inspired me to start making the videos and putting them out there. I've always had this obsession with like creating some sort of a legacy. And yes, the legacy in like my family and my kids and passing on lessons and interests and all that stuff. But more specifically, what has built my inspiration on that is my grandfather was, you know, it was a World War II Army Air Corps veteran, a B-25 radio man. And, oh, interesting. I wonder if we have a. My grandfather was a B-25 pilot. No way. Yeah, he was captain. What theater? He was in Burma.

53:43Okay. Oh, wow. So he was in the Pacific. Yeah. I wonder if they – so my grandfather started as a link trainer instructor at Langley. So they could have possibly met. I mean there's no way we'll know now my grandmother passed away. Yeah, same. So he took – just made an unbelievable document – like record documentation of his time. He was in North Africa, Italy, Corsica. He was in like that theater, right? And he was also on the B-26, the Marauder, for a period of time. I think their unit changed aircraft at one point. But I have I am the one who is in possession of all of his photo albums, citations, documents from from that period.

54:26And it's fascinating to me. And I'm always like, man, I'm so and we also interviewed him, my brother and I before he passed. And we got a lot of stories, like ones where he broke down in tears, like, you know, our unit was bombed and only eight of us survived, like while they were in the deserts on these makeshift desert runways in North in Algeria. And so like I was always like, man, he has he's created this record, this doc of documents and photos and all that. And I'm like, we live in an age right now where we can document things almost like reality, high definition video, audio. we can tell these stories we have the tools to tell these stories and they will last forever indefinitely and for generations people can can can tune in or you know plug into their electrodes in their brain in the future and experience what we're experiencing and for me the ability to create that legacy was always a huge driver is that something that you feel in the videos that you're making?

55:31I, the right answer is yes, but the true answer is not really. So for me, it was really, it started as I want to make content that I'm not seeing out there because I want to see it. It was honestly a selfish motivation, really. And then over time, it's turned into, I don't want to forget these amazing experiences. And so what I think is so cool about social media gets such a bad rap for many valid reasons. But I think the other piece of it that sometimes gets lost in that conversation is you can find community when there's stuff that you don't have like real life friends you're into. And I think about myself growing up in Greensboro, North Carolina.

56:18There was not a lot of aviation, but that was what I loved. And so you're able to find people who share that passion. And so it's not so much legacy. It was sort of like a path for me. It was I want to see something. And then there's been this community that's come around with us who has the same enthusiasm. And that's been a fulfilling, a surprising experience. I never intended to do that. It was really never about building an audience. This is going to sound strange, and I think that a lot of people who look at YouTubers or creators would not really believe me. I don't know that I would believe me, but it's true for me.

57:03I've never focused on the numbers. It's never been about subscribers or views or anything like that. I don't have time to do that. It's about putting out the next piece of content, editing the content. I think to keep up with this, I'm going off on a little tangent, but it's relevant. You have to have a couple of things for you. You have to have a passion or enthusiasm about the content you're making. I couldn't make content about shoes, for example. But there are people out there who do because they love shoes. I think you learn this quickly, both of you, I think. And I think you do this better than a lot of people out there, which is being authentic.

57:51I think both of you are just who you are. And I think that's important because if you want to stick up or stick with it, you can't fake your personality. You see people who skyrocket and then just fall out of the thing because they're not being themselves and you can't keep up that for years. And the third thing is you got to love the work that goes around it. And that's the part that is not seen. I often talk about with newer creators. Remember when you're in school and you had to do math or in your case, Bob, arithmetic? abacus. The teacher would say, show your work, show your work. And the thing about what we do, and I feel like you do, you all do less of this than I do.

58:42I hide the work. You don't see the hours of editing. You don't see the, when things go wrong and we have to find a way around it. And like when we're tired and, you know, really, I don't want to freaking have the meal because the flight left at 10 o 'clock. It was supposed to leave at 7 o 'clock. I want to go to bed, but I got to stay up and film the meal. And I don't get to show that work. So I think all of that is kind of the third thing. And I'm very fortunate. And Steve, I think you're the same way particularly, is I just love the editing. Yes. Like I would and I was talking to somebody the other day.

59:22He was like he works with a lot of creators and he said I'm the first creator he's come across who actually loves the editing. The reason I do it, OK, is because Suzanne and I love to travel. Mm hmm. Suzanne loves to plan travel and really complex trips and coming up with really crazy itineraries. And then I love the editing. So actually, the filming of it is is a necessary evil to get the other things to work. So so all that being said, what what has back to your original question? It's really been, for me, kind of the perfect storm of what I enjoy, which is a passion for, you know, travel and transportation, a personality that just happens to work with the community that we've happened to come across, and then an enthusiasm for the work behind the scenes that doesn't get necessarily seen.

1:00:17Right. I think that's what's motivated me to keep up with it a little more than maybe legacy. But there's definitely there's a legacy component to it because you're putting it out in the world. Well, absolutely. And that's that's maybe you haven't thought about it so much, but that's a side benefit, because imagine if we were able to watch one of your blogs from like flying a constellation across, you know, because because at some point air travel as we know it will be as archaic as as that is. And so we're documenting that in a way that's never been possible throughout time, right? And that's the period of time that we're in.

1:00:53And we are first generation in that time. And I think that we have a responsibility to do it well because there's plenty of people that are doing it that are not doing it well. And I think more people should be doing it in whatever it is for them and documenting it well because we live in this time where, you know, it's like the printing press but in 3D. You know what I mean? We live in a time where we have the technology and almost any – and anyone can afford it. I mean you don't need much. I mean you really could – under$100 you could spend. This is all we use. I don't have anything other than the phone.

1:01:31That was part of my next line of questioning, actually. I want to jump back slightly on what you just said. And yes, the editing is a big piece of it for me. I grew up as a musician in a musical household. And when I committed my life to aviation, I pulled the ripcord on creativity because there's no room for creativity in flying airplanes. There's just not. And it's one of those things that has always been a void, an emptiness in my life. And what I used prior to making these videos to fill that void was simply listening to music. I have a vast catalog. So does Bob. We both love music of all genres, really.

1:02:18And, you know, listening to music allowed me to kind of absorb, like to fill that void. But when I started editing, I started editing with music in the background because I'm one of those people that when I watch a movie, I pay attention to the soundtrack. I, I feel, and we did this on the episode with my father, like I let the music guide my emotions. And I wanted to apply that to air travel, to aviation, to my perspective in aviation, because when I'm flying, I often have AirPods in and I'm listening quietly to music because it's such a huge part of my life. And so stringing them together, editing video with dialogue, telling the story and mixing that with music is very much an artistic release for me.

1:03:03And it's something that I enjoy doing. And like you said, I want people who know to understand what goes into it, but I don't want people to see the entire process because it's dirty and it's messy. Yeah. And if you see the whole process, it's less interesting, I think. Like, the story is the final product. I don't know what this says about me because I hate editing. I think it says more about us than it does you. I think you're the normal guy. Yeah. No, well, I mean, it takes both kinds. Because, look, my videos without Bob on screen, I mean, aren't the same. And Bob being him and Bob and his personality and, you know, the way he interacts throughout a trip with the environment and with the aircraft and with the situations.

1:03:49And with me, I think is like a very, very big part of the story. Yeah. It is. It's a yin and yang kind of a relationship in a lot of ways. I cut most of the shit that I say. you know, because it sounds stupid. And you'll leave all the stupid stuff in for me. Because that's part of it, man, because it's great. People love it. Bob, now you're seeing why you need to like editing. Hey, it seems to work. I'm not going to mess with it. Yeah, we got a good thing going. So talking into the nuts and bolts, I already see we're going long on this and that's fine. Into the nuts and bolts of the channel. So I do everything.

1:04:30And one thing I will say is I hate the filming part of it. Like if there's anything about it that I don't like, it's dealing with cameras and audio gear. It's heavy. It's complicated. I long for the day that, you know, that I could do everything I want to do with an iPhone. I can't mainly because I have to fly the airplane. You know what I mean? There is a good bit of iPhone video in my stuff. But for me, you know, capturing the images and the sounds is a huge challenge. And I've and technology evolves and it's certainly gotten easier. I mean, I'm not, you know, what we can do with what we have technologically now is amazing.

1:05:11But to get the visuals and the sound that I want, I've had to upgrade to like serious lenses, serious camera bodies, serious editing technology, audio editing technology. You know, iZotope RX11 has been like, I mean, I feel like I have like a bachelor's degree on it right now, but I really need a PhD. It's a harsh environment. There's so much that goes into it. It's such a harsh environment. You almost have to, you know, with the sound and a lot of times with the lenses. So that technical stuff, I don't like. It's hard and you need experts to operate that stuff. And like our business simply doesn't allow us the opportunity to bring experts into the mix.

1:05:54So as far as on the capture side. So I got to do it myself. And that's been a learning curve. But the editing I like, the storytelling I like, you know, the experience and the final product I like. You do it all too, right? Yeah, you and I are the same guy in that world. I was walking around the, I don't know if you've seen the reflecting pool that's been in the news lately here in Washington. Yeah, so we wanted to go down and look at it and we were walking around it, Suzanne and me. And this woman came up and said, hey, would you like to talk to us about your thoughts on the reflecting pool? And it was CBS.

1:06:33And I'm like, yes, I see a camera, I'm in. Yeah. And so I said, whatever I said, whatever. It was a nice little interview. And that was a fun surprise. And it was on there. And I've gotten comments on videos. I didn't expect to see you on CBS News. That was pretty good. But anyway, the point is, this was like this little hit piece, like nothing to it. And there were three people. They had the producer, the interviewer, the camera operator and the sound guy. I'm like, as we walked away, Suzanne, can you imagine if we had that much support and like how great that would be? I mean, to do this job, okay, and especially to publish with consistency as we all do, like you're doing so many, playing so many roles that in any other production would be, I don't know, dozens of people.

1:07:28And I think that's part of the fun because when something goes wrong, all you can look at is a mirror. And so it really, it kind of gives you a little bit more pep in your step. I'm with you though. Filming is painful. And for a long time, I, well, not for a long time, for a while, I felt the same way. And to be fair, your recording environment is way more challenging than mine. But I had a couple cameras and different things to do different angles. And I was like, I got to simplify this. And so now it's just an iPhone and some DJI microphones because the cabins are pretty loud ambiently. Yeah.

1:08:09Not as bad as a cockpit or to be out on the ramp, I'm sure. Yeah. Those are really tough environments. They're a little more insulated. um the the runway like the micing of stuff is very difficult for for me and i and i do use lavs um i use the dji stuff for a while i switch to the road stuff because um mainly because they are also capturing on their own like they're recording as well and so i can actually go in and take whatever audio sounds best and sync it and all that stuff but um yeah the audio is a huge challenge but for me the bigger challenge is light like the cockpit is is bizarrely unique in that it's extremely bright and it's extremely dark at the same time and depending what angle you're at you're trying to balance that very dark and that very light what i i think is really though important is i i believe that audiences appreciate a level of uh go back to a word i used earlier authenticity so if it's too polished like i remember we um we i just we decided we wanted to start including maps to kind of show where we're going and i found a a guy on fiverr who could make our maps for us and they're really polished looking maps and we got some pretty negative feedback about it people thought it was too it's like where's the authenticity you've got these great maps now i'm just trying to like up the game so i think there's this like it's like people don't want you to get too good.

1:09:41Yeah. Well, it's true. I mean, I've gotten negative feedback because I started eliminating a lot of the noise. Like when I walk around an airplane, the APU outside is very loud. I'm yelling usually. And I found a way to eliminate, you know, a lot of that noise. And people are like, why'd you cut all the noise out? We want to know what it's like actually walking around the outside of an airplane. It's like, is it that quiet? Did you find a way to make it that quiet now? Is this airplane quieter than another one? So I had to go back to just like basically making it raw. Yeah, I'm trying to make this better for you and you don't like it.

1:10:19Yeah, it's funny. I had to overcome. So I announced that I was switching to FX3s and GoPros and stabilized images. And I announced that because I had some of this footage that I just was in love with. And I said, the next round are going to be like the new style, right? And it was I was shocked. Like the vast majority of people were like, no, don't change a thing. Don't change a thing. And like as a filmmaker, like I want to make it better. I always want to make it better. I look at the last video I did every single time I make a video and I'm like, I hate this, this and this about it. I'm going to do it differently on the next one.

1:10:57And but I do think once I introduced it, people were more receptive to it. They do complain, though, about the music. A lot of people complain about the music drowning out the cockpit chatter. The music is a huge part of it. Look, I think it's a push and pull because on the one hand, you think about like, you know, most reality television shows are like I think about HGTV shows like where they're renovating a house. Every single episode is the same. If you had 20 televisions playing next to each other and each one is showing a different episode, they're shot for shot the same thing. And people like that because they get used to it and it's comforting.

1:11:39But as a creator, I don't want to make the same thing every time. And so that's been an interesting journey for us too because it's added to the complexity of what we – I mean, we were talking about this yesterday. Okay. Suzanne said, remember that I made a video about a flight from Seattle to Boise and Horizon Dash 8. I mean, now we're flying across the Atlantic four times an economy to show the difference. A part of that is there are more people making these videos on YouTube. So you have to bring some creativity to what you're producing. yeah um but an even bigger part of it is i like to keep it interesting as a as a creator as you know as somebody who's making content you have to stay engaged right but you also have to respect the audience and the fact that they don't want you to be that crazy like i would love to make a huge you know i think about like the the stuff you do that's the these massive documentary style pieces.

1:12:44Like I would love to do that, but the audience like that takes, it takes time to transition to that. It does. It does. And, and the difference between you and me there is I don't give a shit. I'm just going to feed it, force feed it to them. And if they like it, great. And if they don't, they can roast me in the comments. I mean, I, but again, I'm not making a living doing it. So like that, there's a big difference and you have sponsors and like, you know, the fact that we do things so loosey-goosey and, you know, our way or the highway is, I mean, I'm not saying that's where I want to stay forever, but I like that freedom right now because I can give, I can give them what I want to give them.

1:13:21And I kind of use that to test different things. Like that last spirit documentary that we did, that went viral. That was the, by far, and we're going to talk about that in a second, but that was by far the most successful video I've ever done. It took me four days start to finish. Look, I texted you as soon as I watched that thing. I was I'm not too proud to admit I'm in tears. I'm sitting there. I'm sitting there weeping. Everybody was watching this thing. It is a work of art. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. But like that's I'm always kind of trying to test what what works. And I want to try different things because it keeps me mentally engaged.

1:13:59The reality is, even on a ferry flight where every trip is a little bit different, the overall trip is always pretty much the same, right? Like, I mean, it's the same. Like, I can only talk about a walk around so many times and have it not be, you know, repetitive. I can only talk about eating the same catering so many times. And we go to the same cities a lot of the time, right? Every time we transit the Atlantic in a narrow body, We're in Kef. Every time we transit the Pacific, we're in Hawaii and Majuro and Guam. I mean, so there's or Anchorage going north. There's not a lot of variety built in there.

1:14:35So I have to kind of find the variety on each episode or create the variety on each episode. God, that's such a, I know that, yes, I know this feeling so well. And it's, for me, it's like, I find myself, I don't want to say it's another sturdy tray table. I say, this is a sturdy tray, I'm not going to do it this time. I'm just not going to do it. And as I'm sitting down to start editing, it's like, it's almost demotivating if it's the same thing. It's so interesting to hear you say that because it's exactly the same thing for me, just in a different way. We got to do one together, man. Let's do it.

1:15:08We got to do it. But it's all about scheduling, but we've got to make it happen. It is. And the other added thing is, like, most of the time we fly on an SFP, so it's, like, restricted to licensed crew members only. But we do fly on standards, foreign standards. And then, of course, we have to clear it with the client. And there's just so many different things involved. But the stars will align. We did it with Osterauer once. We'll get you on. I think that's going to be awesome. And we'll bring your wife along as well. Yes, of course. Well, she's a critical element. Well, that's what I would. So, you know, in terms of filming, I was curious to know, are you both filming off of your own separate phones and then you come in and edit it with both of both of that footage?

1:15:54Yeah. So it's interesting. The way we think about it is she's kind of the the high level editor because she drives like where we go. I mean, we work on it together, but she's driving like the strategy of what we're making and all that. And then the order in which we're doing things and how stuff comes out. When it comes to filming, the sort of A camera, I would say, is me. And then she's got what I would say, the B camera. So she's getting other angles and that kind of thing. And then, you know, this is, you know, we put it together and into one final piece. Is she part of the editing process?

1:16:30Yeah, for sure. So it's interesting. I met her right after that first video. And so she's been, she's as much of an aviation enthusiast as we are, maybe a little bit more excited about airports than airplanes. Yeah. She's a transportation engineer, master's degree in aviation planning and just amazing, amazing, amazing expertise and a real enthusiasm for this stuff. So, yeah, she's been a part of the entire process basically since day one. The editing, I do I do the first pass. Then we come in. She watches it, gives me a first round of edits, make those. Then we go. sitting side by side, finishing, making a final cut.

1:17:17Man, that is, that's, what an awesome resource. That's something that we do not share. I wish I had someone else to bounce it off of. I don't know, it must also create some interesting dynamics in the house. It does. I'm not going down this road, man. It really does two things. Well, what it is, it's a real, it has created or ensured real positive communication and given us a really good foundation there, which I think is important in any relationship. But it also has, I'm such a, maybe artist or creative thinker like you, my previous career really took out the creativity. And this is just absolutely blossomed for me with this.

1:18:01And I would make all kinds of mistakes if it weren't for her. She's an engineer, so she sees the details. And so the story flow is tighter. The videos are much better with her expertise. I can imagine. My kids and my wife are kind of my test audience for a lot of things. So when I make a video, one thing that people kind of probably don't know is I don't make it like continuous, right? Like I'll edit parts. I mean, I start usually from the beginning, but then I remember something as I'm going through footage. I'm like, oh, I have this idea and like I'll work something. So I usually it's usually a combination, like each kind of break, each scene break is kind of something that I've worked on separately.

1:18:45And sometimes I've done things where I'm like, this is gold. I love this. I love this. And my kids or my wife are watching it and they're like, this is terrible. Or sometimes, you know, and so I use that feedback. And sometimes I just tell them, no, I don't care. I like it. I'm keeping it in. And they were right, you know, usually because when you're watching something over and over and over again, your brain eventually processes it far differently than someone who watches who's watching it for the first time. And you're seeing it raw before the edits, before any corrections or anything like that.

1:19:19Well, the other thing that's tough, you know what's coming. They've got no clue. Right. Right. That's true. Right. And sometimes I'll have to be like, no, no, no. This makes more sense if you've seen this other thing first. But I didn't, and nobody else will have either. When you guys are on board filming or taking pictures and stuff, do you ever get anything back from the flight crews for privacy and things like that? We have never had that happen, touch wood. And I think two things – there are two main reasons. First of all, we're pretty sensitive to when the crew's out. We don't film the crew.

1:19:59We don't film other passengers. Secondarily, if we accidentally do, we tend to blur their faces or whatever. They don't know that at the time. And then the other thing, I think, is because we're just using an iPhone, like it's not – it doesn't grab a lot of attention. I think. I think that's it. Well, maybe when you're together, they just figure you're taking, you know, pictures of each other, videos of each other or whatever, you know. It's not like me out there, like, you know, by myself taking pictures of the cabin. Well, when we're walking in airports, Bob, I don't know if you've noticed this, but I don't use camera gear in airports ever.

1:20:33Everything that's in an airport, like terminal area, in like the secured area is always done with a phone because I don't want to call attention to myself in the process. You know, walking through the streets of India, I'll go to the next level, which is usually a GoPro because I don't want to get robbed. And I also don't want to lug that stuff around. So generally, you know, I'll use a GoPro for that. But sometimes I'll like in Tashkent, I took out like I had the FX3 out. Sometimes I'll do it. But mostly the real good gear is reserved for controlled situations. the spontaneous stuff is always either phone or GoPro for that reason.

1:21:13You know, it's less conspicuous. So this actually dovetails nicely to one of the reasons that we're even here today to doing this. And Jeb reached out when I made the announcement that I had to take down the Spirit video and it got me to thinking. And this has been, well, let me back up a little bit. So I made the spirit video without much of a plan. It was like I had the idea once we were in the mix and then like I kind of like raced to get footage and I went and flew one of the trips to get footage and then I met another trip leaving to get footage and then I squashed it all together. We talked about it on the pod and I turned it into a video.

1:21:54So there wasn't a whole lot of planning involved, but whenever we do a video, I do ask my clients. It's also part of our contract with our clients. Like they are either accepting that their airplane and certain elements of the trip are usable in social media or will expressly ask permission and get permission from the aircraft owner. I've never had to really think about locations before. And I've never thought about it because we've done, I mean, we're not nearly, we're at like 10 % of what you've got. I think I got like 25 videos or something. but those videos have touched almost 50 airports and I filmed inside of them and I filmed in the ramps and I feel and I've talked about them and I rarely go negative but you know I don't even think twice about it I mean I'm filming because I have the right to be there I'm badged I have access I wouldn't call them I could they're kind of documentaries like so I think that we're starting to touch upon some First Amendment stuff.

1:22:55But I've never really thought, oh, well, we're going to be filming at this airport, so I need to talk to the airport authority because I want to avoid that bureaucracy. Long story short, Make the Spirit video, million and a half views in just a couple weeks. Just great comments. I mean, everybody loves it. Got all kinds of media attention. And then I get a cease and desist from the Atlantic City International Airport saying that I must either edit out all of the anything obtained in Atlantic City, which was sprinkled throughout the video, critical pieces to the story. I mean, because that was one of two places I filmed, really.

1:23:36And, you know, either do that or take the entire video down or they're going to go after me for damages and like all this ridiculous stuff. enough because there's some statute that the New Jersey Transportation Authority requires that we get written permission from the airport manager to do any commercial filming at their airport on airport grounds. So I received the cease and desist. I reached out to our lawyer. She says we have a great case. I mean, we'll get into the specifics of that later. But ultimately, we submitted a request to retroactively receive permission, citing that it was positive.

1:24:18The video was painted the airport in a positive light. It's a public interest. It's arguably non-commercial. I mean, you know, I ain't making any money on YouTube. I'll tell you that much. And they came back and said, no, take it down. You have until the 18th of June. So at 1159 on the 17th of June, I made it private. And right now it is still private. It essentially does not exist in the public sphere whatsoever. But it's not gone. And I'm definitely, definitely weighing my options as far as do I want to fight this? Do I want to challenge them to a fight and see what happens? What are the upside?

1:25:02What are the downside? I think at the end of the day, the downside is going to be monetary. But, you know, this this really look, we talked about this before. YouTube is TV now. That is where we're going. The networks are struggling. The streamers are struggling. The future of broadcast media is either YouTube or a YouTube like platform. It just is. And everyone across the media space will tell you that everyone. That means that there are going to be independent creators out there providing documentaries, making entertaining films. This stuff is only going to get bigger and bigger, and that's going to present some real challenges to overcome.

1:25:45And I know that you've had a similar experience. I did, yeah. I think you're right. I think at the end of the day, content is not about the creator or even what the content is. It's about the audience it attracts. And what's really interesting about YouTube and platforms like YouTube or the short form stuff like TikTok or whatever it is, content becomes successful if there's an audience with whom it resonates. And we, meaning small content creators, can make content that a broadcast platform cannot. I think back to that CBS News interview at the Reflecting Pool. If you've got three people who've got to go around, you can't just make a documentary about the spirit moment in four days.

1:26:38It's just not possible. So I think your premise is correct. I think that there are two kinds of airports. I think there are airports that are run by business-minded, marketing-focused kinds of people, maybe even engineers. And then there are airports that are run by lawyers. and that's about it. Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately, it turns out that Atlantic City is run by lawyers and lawyers, as a recovering lawyer, I can tell you, are fear-based and it's all about risk management and what can they do to cut the risk. I don't know what the damages are they would claim you created. Like what are they going to recover?

1:27:33and it's just silly. So yeah, we had a similar experience. Mine was a little different though. I got invited to, and some of this is on me. Okay, it's on me. I'm happy to take the accountability. I got invited up to Cincinnati to make a video behind the scenes there and I asked the guy who invited me, okay, this is great. So we've got permission to film, like we can do whatever. And he's like, yeah, it's all good. And I got there, it was his day off and um that was a little strange and then he takes me up onto a triple seven that's being loaded up with cargo takes me into the cockpit and like i'm like this is strange the crew was on board and they thought it was strange i'm like i'm not filming anything in here i don't know who these people are you don't work for these people this is so i'm like okay well the airfield is probably okay so we made you know made this content it was the first episode in a series that I've since kind of like cultivated called Airports Revealed, where we go behind the scenes, highlighting, you know, the operations and the people that make airports work because there's so many unsung heroes, as you guys know better than most.

1:28:41And so we put this video together. I'm super excited about it. I'm like, this is the future. Airports Revealed, nobody's doing it. This is going to be like the thing. And publish the video and find similar success, you know, not to the extent of spirit, it. But like it was a it was a good video. And then I got an email from the airport saying you need to take this down because you didn't have permission to do any of this. And I freaked out like it through it just definitely threw me for a loop. I'm like and I so I didn't do what you did. You you made the smart move. And this is what I told you.

1:29:15You marked it private. I just deleted it. Yeah. So I lost all those views. Yeah. And thankfully, we were able to work through it like Like their issues were some of them were valid, some of them were silly, but they were legitimate concerns. They're a private, semi-private, that's debatable, but, you know, property. And so it's their property. So I needed to match their requirements. But, yeah, it is frustrating. And I think what gets lost in that bureaucratic focus is like what we're making is positive. Yeah. And I get it. Their concern, and again, this is the way lawyers are either wired up or are trained to be, is not the positive content that you or I are making, but the risk that some nefarious character sees the video and then decides to go make their own and they do something bad.

1:30:07Right. But that's a different risk than this positive video you made about a really important moment for a lot of people. Yeah. And on ours, in our defense, I mean, any footage of the airport itself was incidental to the fact. I mean, you can't film a large commercial aircraft without filming incidental footage of an airport. It's just not humanly possible. I mean, we're not going to pull the airplane out to the street. You know, we've and we've we've had, you know, as I said, we've we've had although that would be good content if you did. It would be. It would be. But no, we've we've made a number of these other videos.

1:30:52And it's been interesting to see who I mean, a lot of airports have reached out to us proactively saying, hey, come and make a video about our about our airport because we see the value in this. I think a lot of airports are struggling, you know, either to get their own employees or for their tenants to get employees because it's a difficult environment to work in. So this is an opportunity to highlight, like, how important these and how cool these spaces are. And I think those kinds of airports are – they just have it easier. I just – I think, like I said, two kinds of airports in the world. Yeah.

1:31:30Yeah. I mean, my strategy has always been I pull out the cameras, I film. If somebody doesn't like it, I put the cameras away. You know what I mean? For sure. Yeah. And in this one, like we had the client, the client wanted the video made. They liked it. They were a fan of the show. In fact, that's how this particular client even found out about us was from the videos. It was a client we had never worked with before. They were like, it would be awesome if you did a video using our aircraft. And I said, well, we happen to be doing a video about Spirit. And so, yeah, I'll use this footage. I was just, it was awesome.

1:32:04And here's the other thing that's crazy. I mean, Atlantic City is like my stomping grounds, man. I live 40 minutes from there. Like this is, and they are struggling to find tenant airlines. Like they are not in a good place with the demise of Spirit. And I focused on, I doubt they even watched it, but I focused on the video, the airport ops guy, the guy in the pickup truck that was our escort. I mean, I was planning just to film on the airplane and then I was planning to drive to the outer perimeter to film the takeoff. He goes, no, man, jump in the pickup truck. Let's go to the edge of the runway.

1:32:39I'm like, hell yeah, let's do it. You know, and, you know, at the end of the day, I don't know who he answers to. That's not my problem. Like that he was in a position of authority to me and he granted us the access to do it for whatever reason, whether that was right or wrong. Um, that's not for me to decide, but I just took him up on that. So that's where it's just really. And again, this is documenting something. It's a documentary. We're not promoting anything. You know, we're documenting this is public interest. Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, all those are legal questions that if you decide to pursue, you would eventually find answers to.

1:33:19Yeah. But I agree with you. To me, it's the wrong word, but it's the spirit of the thing, man. Yeah. This is one of the reasons I just, I got out of law. It's like, throw me a bone, like step back from this and just use some common sense. Like this is a good freaking thing. Yeah. Yeah. No, I totally agree. And we'll see where this goes. I think that there are lessons to be learned from all parties involved in this. I do believe that I will find a way to get that back and available at some point, I hope. It's definitely a piece that I've done that I'm very proud of, and I'd love to continue to showcase it.

1:34:04I think it came out well. So it's unfortunate, but, you know, again, this is the world we live in. The good news is a million-plus people have seen it. Have seen it. Have seen it. But I want it to be part of the record going forward. Well, that goes back to your focus on legacy. Yes. And because of that North Star, that drive, I know you'll make it happen. I hope so, man, and I appreciate it. Well, Jeb, we've gone over an hour here. I mean, man, it was awesome. It was enlightening. We've got to have you back. But more so, we've got to do that collab video, man. Yeah. It's going to be awesome. Let's do it.

1:34:42Let's focus on doing it. It's up to us to let you know when there is something pending that might be doable. All right. Well, it's been awesome. So glad you were able to join us. Let's do it again. Let's stay in touch. For sure. Great to see you guys. Thank you so much for the conversation. Between now and the next time, see you in the sky. All right. Sounds good, Jeb. Thank you. See you. Bye-bye.