Revisited – S3 E4: Big Zuu, rapper and TV personality

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:07I'm Grace Dent and this is Comfort Eating from The Guardian. A podcast where we pay homage to the lesser celebrated foods in life. Because even as a restaurant critic, I believe the food that matters most is often that snack you cobbled together when you curled upon the sofa. Each week, I ask my guest to lift the lid on what comfort foods have seen them through their lives. Because you can tell a lot about a person from what they eat behind closed doors.

0:46Hello, friends. Now, whilst the comfort eating team are walking the Cairngorns in Cagoules, in our annual glamorous August maxi break, I thought we could serve you up a sprinkling of my favourite episodes. These are the conversations that make me laugh and cry and sometimes even both at once whilst eating watsits, so I do sound a bit like a goat, but Big Zoo is the type of person who does not care. Now, Zoo is a songwriter, he's a rapper, He's a presenter. He's won two BAFTAs for Big Zoos, Big Eats. And well, he is just a good egg with a fascinating life story. I think about this conversation a lot and I really want you to hear this episode.

1:36We will be back in September for more perfectly sized portions of comfort eating nourishment. Believe me, there is no feeling like opening my front door and seeing another celeb holding their secret snack. Anyway, here's Big Sue. Hello friends, welcome back to another episode of Comfort Eating. I am just throwing together another highbrow creation here in my kitchen. This is one of my more sheepish snacks. This is boiled eggs mixed in a cup with curry powder and a lovely splodge of salad cream. I'm going to spread this on toast. This is a very much eating, standing up in the kitchen, waiting for a guest snack.

2:26So today, Big Zoo is coming over to my home. I think the word entertainer probably describes him. But within that, I'm including cook, rapper and grime artist, TV presenter and radio DJ too. Now, Zoo is very much on the same page as us when it comes to food being comforting and personal and his cookbook is full of family recipes that he's adapted and dishes he's picked up and perfected while recording his BAFTA winning TV show, Big Eats. In fact, this might be what you know him best for, touring the country in a food van with his two best mates cooking up bespoke dishes for celebs that surprise and delight.

3:15It was a breath of fresh air when it first burst onto our screens mostly because Zoo refuses to water himself down to fit into any telly norms. With Zoo it's all about big laughs and big flavours so I'm excited to learn what part comfort food has played in making him this way.

3:43big zoo welcome to comfort eating hello how you doing i'm really well last time i saw you you just moved somewhere and you were trying to think of a way to get to know your neighbors yeah and you told me that you'd bought a box of your own cookbooks and you'd walk down the street giving them to various neighbors and i've thought about that ever since because i think it's so sweet and so lovely and a little bit out there why was it important for you to do that why why was it the cookbook so i moved to a orthodox jewish community and being the non-jewish household we just thought it would be respectful to kind of like let everyone know hi we're here We live on the roads.

4:37And I just thought it might be easier for people to digest who I am if I show them exactly who I am. So showing them I had a cookbook was the greatest thing I've ever done because they all, like me in a tracksuit, just knocking on your door. You know what I mean? They would open the door and be like, what do you want? And I'm like, oh, I just moved to Namba, da, da, da. Just wanted to say hi. Also, I have a cookbook. And when I showed them the cookbook, it's me on the cookbook. So it's kind of like, it was always surreal for them because they always look at me, they'd be like, well, you do have a cookbook because that is you.

5:12Yes. It's the way I give it to them. So it melted people the moment, didn't you? Yep. It just instant friendship. And what it led to was them trying to prove to me that they can cook. So what would happen is all my neighbours would like knock on my door, give me food. and obviously they have the Sabbath which is all about like people coming together and not working and relaxing and eating food. And I learned a lot about like Jewish cuisine and how you prepare food for the Sabbath because obviously you're not allowed to cook when it's the Sabbath. So there's like a thing called 24 hour stew which is like a stew that just sits there on a hot plate for 24 hours.

5:52It's a bit weird but it's beautiful. People know you for your show Big Eats. So I am excited to see exactly what is this big eat that you've brought. I'm going to open it. Open it. It is. It's warm. I'm taking the plate off the top. I don't know what's in here. Go on, do it. Oh no. This is the first time anyone's brought this. So is it super noodles? It's not super noodles, but it is instant noodles. Are they just chicken? These are chicken ones. and you're not adding anything to them you can but what's the point? Everything comes in one darling why gild the lily? yeah exactly I'm going through, I'm going in it smells so good as well it's the sauce it's the broth isn't it?

6:45because it is very very chemically so when would you eat this? growing up when my mum didn't make dinner yeah Yeah. We're just going to be bothered. And it's a late night snack. Sorry, let me stop eating. No, you're allowed to eat them. I'll be back. You're allowed to eat them. That's the first time somebody's brought packet noodles. And I don't know why, because packet noodles are really comforting. They're part of life. There's something quite bland, but satisfying. Yeah. And it's like pushing them into your face is like love, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, they're like, people do these weird videos where they like fix cracks with noodles and stuff.

7:25I don't know if you've seen them. Yeah, I've seen that. So it's like, why am I putting this in my body? I mean, that's a question. I normally crush two packets together in my hand. Yeah, yeah. Boil them up and like hover over it and like get a nice little face steam while I eat it. It's like when you put like vapor rub in a bowl and you've got a towel over your head. Yeah. It's that same feeling, but noodle. It's all those delicious chemicals though, isn't it? We love the chemicals.

8:03Your mum arrived here in the UK from Sierra Leone when she was four months pregnant with you. Yeah. And after you were born, you lived, just the two of you, in West London. Paint me a picture of what your mother was like then. Mum was very scandalous. She's got a lot of energy. Fiery woman. So I had to endure everything at all times. Scandalous? Scandalous. Why is your mother scandalous? She's just like what the Kardashians were before the Kardashians were a thing. She likes a nice dress? Loves a dress. Hair, makeup. Hair, makeup. I used to sit in the nail shop for two hours, then go to the salon and sit there in the salon.

8:55What did you do when you were sitting there? Just to sit there, just soaking the atmosphere. Just listening to the women talking. Oh my God. And because I'm mum's African, I'm young. Young kids can't really talk too much in African households. That's how it is. Yeah. When you're a young man, young girl, doesn't matter. You're not supposed to talk to the adults when the adults are adulting. but because I was so like intrigued and everything I thought I was the smartest kid in the world I used to always get involved in my mum's conversations and she used to get really annoyed when I say something smart so like they'll be talking about politics and be like well actually you know that's wrong and mum would look at me I don't do that just let me do my hair let me get this girl she'll have the curlers in I used to spend a lot of time in those places because my mum used to love looking on point I saw your mother at the BAFTAs your mother is an attractive woman she's a beautiful lady she is oh and the baftas oh yeah so we got her a stylist and she didn't use them so they got like they got all her clothes and stuff and she was like actually i don't really like what they got me i said mom why did you make me pay for them she said i just wanted to get the option i said okay i'm gonna go harvey nichols i said all right mom this is a woman that absolutely knows her own mind did you are you like that did you get that from her you know what it made me be the opposite.

10:15Now I'm older I get, the more I understand if you look good, you feel good. But growing up, I was so scruffy. I used to get my hair cut and not get it shaped up. I used to not get a markup. Like a buzz cut. I used to leave the house and be like, is that what you're wearing? She'd be like, yeah. What? She's like, no, no. Tell me if you were to think back then with your mother, what do you eat together? Does she cook? Is there recipes that she does? Yeah, so my mom cooks a lot. A lot of Ciaran onion food, jollof rice. See, I always think that jollof, every time I hear somebody that's told me the recipe, it's always different, isn't it?

10:54Depending on where you are. Exactly from where it's come from. So how did your mum cook it? It's normally an onion tomato based stew, which is cooked down. The rice is added and then it's left to steam. Then the rice soaks up all that onion tomato flavour and it comes out very tomatoey. We stew our veg rather than blend it. So Nigeria and Ghana, they blend their onion, tomato and peppers. Whereas Sierra Leone, we stew them down. I think, I don't know what that comes from. I always say the joke that because Nigeria and Ghana have more money than Sierra Leone, they have more access to blenders. Whereas Sierra Leone, we don't really have electricity like that.

11:35So they probably have to stew the veg because they never chance to blend it. Because I'm like, what African auntie back in the hood is blending onions, tomatoes? But that's how they do it. They blend theirs. So Sierra Leone has the best jollof. In my humble opinion. I also say, because we're a poorer country, we've got less things to do. Less money to make. More time to cook. More time to care about the quality of our food. Whereas Nigeria, you guys are busy.

12:10So your mum's making these delicious stews from the place that she's from. Yep. Filled with love and care and trying to recreate. How did you feel about that? First few years, it was very, it was almost inedible because my mum had the hand of an African lady. So she would cook with immense amounts of scotch bonnet to the point where I would cry. when dinner is served. Because my mum will give me a nice big plate. I'm like, oh, I can't wait to eat this. Have one spoon, can't eat it. And I'm like, mum, this happened again. And then that would force me to put the plate to the side and probably have some toast or some canned food.

12:59What kind of canned food? Oh, like macaroni and cheese in the can. Oh, I love it. I love it. It's a little bit indulgent, isn't it? it took her a couple of years to learn her hand so what she started doing after time was not chopping the scotch bennett in boiling it on top of the shoe serving mine and then matching the pepper in and then having hers

13:31so you've said you were scruffy looking but if i met you when you were seven who would i be meeting what were you like i was really happy just used to laugh a lot all i cared about was laughing loved laughter that was like my main i don't know point of life was just a laugh. So when me and my mum was, we moved around before we settled in West London. We lived in a place called The Hotel. It's like a, you know, like one of those big mansions. Yeah. But it was converted into little flats, little rooms with shared bathrooms and it was for refugees. It was for like people waiting to find their stay.

14:09And I remember we stayed there for about two years and I was like four and I walked in and there was this kid at the front door and he was like, oh, you're Zuhair, isn't it? I said, who are you? He's like, oh, my dad is the manager of this place. Instantly, me and him became really close. So he was like, he was like my best friend growing up and me and him used to spend a lot of time together. Mr. Zaki, me and him spent all day just being stupid. But it feels like your memories of that time where you were living is just filled with laughter. I don't think you, this isn't the best position to be in in life.

14:43Why do I share a room with my mum? Why do we not have a whole house? I went to primary school in Marlebone so like I was growing up around like posh kids but then also I was growing up around people that were in the same position as me so like my primary school was a split because Marlebone is in between like obviously the beautiful Marlebone Baker Street and then it's also Edgeway Road and you have like the juxtaposition of what you have in West London which is like the poor and the rich rubbing shoulders so like going to one of my friends' houses dad was a director and I went to the house and I kid you not their dog had a bigger room than me and my mum's house.

15:23And I was like, I remember, I was like, bro, why is your dog's room so big? They're like, he needs room. I said, okay. And I remember opening the suite cupboard, yeah? And I was like, fam, this is mad. I opened the suite, because my mum's like, classic African, they don't really like sweets too much. They're not very sweet toothy. So when I opened the suite cupboard, I was like, yo, this is different. So growing up, like I grew up around people that had incredible lives, but so I always knew that we weren't in the easiest positions, but my mum raised me to be very grateful where I was. And I think we masked a lot of the pain with laughter and smiles and happiness.

16:04But there was also the dark side where you kind of know, this is a bit tough. I think growing up, I suppressed a lot of it, which is why when I got older, I started making music. a lot of my music is about my childhood and my mother and the strains that we went through and growing up out of that so i kind of feel like the first time i ever expressed how i really felt was through my music when did you first start to cook um it was when out my mom was pregnant with my little brother when i was 10 years old right she's going through a lot she wasn't she wasn't in her best mind state things were rocky with her partner at the time she got to a point where She was very, she's heavily pregnant, very tired, very drained.

16:49She just stopped cooking dinner. It's eventually just like, I'll come home and be like, my mom wants to dinner. She's like, I haven't been anything. And I'm like, okay, what can I do? I looked in the fridge, there was some tortellini. And my mom used to always boil tortellini, overcook. She used to overcook it because she used to think you boil tortellini like how you boil dry pasta. So she would boil it for 10 minutes. Really supposed to boil tortellini for two minutes. so I read the packaging boiled it for two minutes put some sauce in the microwave grated some cheese on top it wasn't hard but I did it and when I did it my mum was like Zoo this pasta is undercooked what have you done?

17:29and I said mum no no no the classic argue with my mum style got the package out the bin said look what does it say there it says boil for two minutes she's like eating it again she's like you know what maybe this is nice because her one you know the stuffing used to come out and yeah used to like go into the water well that that tortellini yeah it just really needs just kind of placed into water and then taken out yeah two minutes not a long not a long time yeah she used to wait for 10 but when you first serve it i mean how does that feel it was at the time it was kind of like i just wanted to eat but when I got the satisfaction of proving my mum wrong I was like yes I like this like that feeling you love being right don't you oh my god I have a problem I'm working on it now I just want I just want to be right it's that I want to be correct if that makes sense I'd want things to go correct for everyone so sometimes I feel like I can be overbearing and I can share my opinion because I'm normally I'm the logistics man I have all my friends I'm the one that books the cab I'm the one that books the hotel I'm the one that books the flight I'm the one that says we're going here to eat dinner we're doing this tomorrow we're all going bowling I'm that guy I've always been that guy but when I was young that's all I wanted to be because it came from that African mentality of children are outside out of mind you're not you kind of like the adults are right so I always wanted to prove my mum that regardless of how young I am I'm right and I was really bright when I was young I was like in top set everything I was in a gifted and talented I was like I was a very smart child so I always wanted to prove to my mum that you know what listen to me maybe and then when I made that tortellini it was like this is mad like I am right the pasta is way better than yours but I also felt the joy of like she's tired and I've helped her yeah you know it was important for me to do something to help her at that time and when I did that then I started getting more into it then I started like making breakfast for her making breakfast in bed obviously being I was a young fat man so I love food young tubby man so like for me it's like I gave myself the power to eat more which is even better because like ooh I like food but can't make it ooh now I can

20:12You present Big Eats. Yeah. And this is alongside two of these people you've known all the way through this. Yeah, from secondary school. Two of your oldest childhood friends, Tubbsie and Hyder. Yes. You met them at school. Yeah. So when do you start cooking with them? It kind of stemmed from we spent a lot of money on takeaway. So we used to always go to my friend's house and like buy a chicken cottage and spend like five pounds on a meal. And I, like times are tight. So like five pounds, a lot of money to get away with, especially when you're a young man who's trying to like enjoy your life.

20:47So I used to be like, lads, give me your money. I'm going to go to the shop and I'm going to cook and it'll save us money and we'll eat more. So I used to always make roast chicken and like sides and like a macaroni cheese. Made some spas, made some carrots. I made a coleslaw. so were Tubbsy and Hyder into cooking too or were they just yeah so Tubbsy and Hyder did food tech with me right and then growing up when I used to cook for my friends I was like Hyder we cook at Hyder's house we cook at Tubbsy's house cook at my house we all used to go to each other's house and just cook when you left school what were you thinking about doing with your life I didn't really know one of my head of years stopped me and said what are you doing with your life I looked at him I said Nick I don't know he was like to me i always think nick was like an annoying guy i can i swear of course you can i think nick was a prick yeah but he stopped me in the end of like my end of my second year college and he said to me what are you doing with your life i said nick i'm not gonna lie i don't know and you don't care so why are you talking to me he said he said bro it's my job to care i said okay he said we'll get you to talk to a career advisor i spoke to this lady she said zoo what you good at i said i'm not gonna lie i don't know she said what do you think you're good at i said you know i've always been good at talking she said okay we can start from there the job that goes with talking um is maybe social care i was like okay how can i work in social care if i'm 17 she said well you can start working in youth work i said okay i don't know how that works but let's give it a try got really bad grades wow i'm gonna become a youth worker did my first year everything It was fine.

22:30Second year, music started picking up. I'm doing shows in the night, going to uni in the morning. Came to a point in my life where I was like, you know what? I'm going to have to drop out and just double down on music. And then one day, with my music, help young people. And then I dropped out. I dropped out and I started working for Uber Eats. So I would deliver food. So that's kind of like full circle for me.

23:04You dropped out of uni to pursue music. Yeah. You end up getting spotted and doing Big Eats. Yeah. So you knew you could cook, but the magic behind Big Eats is the chat between you and your guest. Yeah. What was it like learning to interview? I had a radio show from when I was 21. Yeah. so radio really helped me in terms of interviewing but interviewing people like Jimmy Carr Phil Wang Rosie Jones that's the first the first series was all these incredible comedians and interviewing them was really nerve wracking but luckily the guests kind of just working in TV kind of it's different to music music is like a battle if there's a show or a live show everyone's trying to be the best I want to have the best set I want everyone to love my bit whereas telly is like you come together.

23:59What was sick is that first series of Big Eats is we was really cooking for people when they was doing their live gig. So Jimmy Carr is performing in Fairfield Halls in Croydon. He's actually doing a show and he's also getting paid to eat with me after his show. So the interview is really easy. It's like I'm asking about food that he loves, his life. Who has been your most memorable guest to talk to so far? Rosie Jones. I never had a conversation with someone with cerebral palsy. let alone made a television program with him. At the time, we're in this big theatre, I've got all these questions to ask her.

24:36My brother's autistic, and sometimes I see the way people talk to him, and I'm like, you know you can just talk to him normally. So understanding that at the time was a big moment for me, because I was like, I've never done this before, so how am I going to approach this? picked her for him and he realised that she's absolutely crazy. Yeah. Then, me and her just start getting really close. We start having this crazy on-screen moment where, like, which is really cool. Cooler than anyone I spoke to in that series. Don't get me wrong. Are you telling me that you fell in love a little bit with Dorsey Jones?

25:14I fell in love with her. She's very lovable. She told me if she wasn't lesbian, she would be my girlfriend. I was really excited. no she like I met incredible people in the first season people that really showed me a lot of love you know people like Ed Gamble who did our pilot and was really easy and just took away all the nerves and people like Phil Wang who's hilarious but me and Rosie there was just a moment where it was just like you get this random brother this music man from the hood and then Rosie from up north who's just crazy larger than life woman. She ate it. The way she ate it was really crazy.

25:56Food was all over her face and stuff. It was so funny, but she loved it. And it just, it kind of proved to me that what we're doing here is beautiful. To what extent has filming the show changed your friendship with Tubbsie and Hyda? I hate them more. Love them more. Hyda's called the method, man. Because Hyda has an intense issue when it comes to you doing stuff wrong. So if you, if there was a way to whisk an egg and you're whisking it and we're filming, he'll whisper in my ear, oh, you know you should do it like this. I'm like, you do know I'm trying to present the show. Or like, or if you're frying something, oh, you know you should use a spatula like this.

26:40Or if you're, if the recipe says add corn flour and I call it corn starch by accident, you know that it's corn flour. He's one of them guys. Does he not know that Big Zoo likes to be correct? Yes. So it's the worst combo of all time. I like it. But it makes really good telly. And it tests our relationship. Because sometimes on camera, I want to fly kick him. But I can't because people are watching. But what the crew love is when I get annoyed at Haida, they love it because they're like, Zoo, he's just trying to help. And I'm like, you don't know what he's trying to do. He's trying to sabotage me.

27:17He wants me to look like a dickhead. But really, I can't function without telling you. You know that's wrong. So, series three. Yeah. You're two BAFTAs deep now. I don't know how. How did you celebrate after you won those awards? So, I'm like teetotal. I don't drink alcohol right now. So, we was in a BAFTA celebration. because everyone's having champagne and everyone's eating this terrible BAFTA food. Award ceremony food. It was so bad. And I only eat halal food. So it was even worse because I'm eating the veg option. Well, right, talk me through it. What is BAFTA vegetarian option for a man who's just won two BAFTAs?

28:06What did they serve you? Honestly, it was just like a carrot. It was like a carrot. A fancy carrot. I looked at Hyder. I looked at Hyder. I asked my production manager who was there. I said, I know we're not on set. Can you order us a kebab? She was like, I don't know if we can get it in. Yeah. It's a bit weird to get to the venue. So I looked at everyone. Behind me is Ant and Dec. Everyone's being really nice. We won two bathrooms. Everyone talks to us. I've gone, guys, I might leave. And they were like, you can't leave. Like the party hasn't started. There's a party. Gokwan's DJing. I was like, yeah.

28:42I just want a kebab. And they were like, they were like, you know what, zoo? Okay, come on. And I said, cool. Hugged everyone, said goodbye to everyone, took about 15 minutes. And I went to a place called Marouche in Knightsbridge, which never closes and has a seating area. Got there. It was full. We had two bathrooms in our hands. Oh my God. I've gone to the boss, man. There was like a little table. I said, listen, we'll sit on that one table. There's five of us. We'll stand and eat up, please. I'm so hungry. I will literally stand, just put the food out he's like we can't do it you're going to be in the way I've got two BAFTAs in my hand like in holding them I said brother I just won two BAFTAs for a food show surely you'll let me eat here he's like brother I don't know what BAFTA is I said oh my god this is a bit so then these three lads are sitting on a a five seater table they go oh my god you're a big zoo I just saw your speech wait are those the BAFTAs I'm like bro do you want to hold it I gave it to them they asked me listen we're going to eat our food quickly and you can sit down I said no don't do that they said no listen you're going to sit down so they picked up their food scoffed it let us sit down sat down and we ordered the whole entire restaurant and then yeah and then I went to Mo Gilligan had an after party went to Mo Gilligan's after party filled with kebab with the bathers in hand walked in there was a moment all my peers that I've known for many years just showing me a lot of love, a lot of hugs, a lot of kisses, dancing, vibes.

30:18Then after like 30 minutes, I'm like, oh, you know what, I just have to go home. Went home, put the BAFTAs on our mantelpiece. Me and Tubs behind it, we just sat there and just looked at them. We're like, this is actually real. Yeah.

30:39In your BAFTA acceptance speech, you highlighted the importance of representation by celebrating the immigrant heritage of all three of you. Yeah. Who were you hoping was listening to that in particular? Well, when I get into telly, I used to think every marginalised group has problems, whether it's black people, whether it's women, whether it's people in the LGBTQ plus community. there's so many issues in telly but my one was that i'm black so my issue is to help black people but then i started learning more about telly more about production more about who works behind it then i'm like oh wait maybe this is a class problem maybe everyone that owns the production companies works in the channels are not from working class backgrounds so then that means that they're not represented because i used to think why why am i not represented as a black man why is she not represented as a woman why why is a lot of the people that make television old white men i'm like oh because of their class then i started learning that wait you can't just only have working class people in telly because then to make great things you need all types of thinkers but if we live in a country that is a very high percentage of working class people how comes telly is over 50 % from the middle class?