S10, Ep2: Lulu, musician

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:07I'm Grace Dent and this is Comfort Eating from The Guardian a podcast where we pay homage to the lesser celebrated foods in life because even as a restaurant critic I believe the food that matters most is often that snack you cobble together when you're curled upon the sofa Each week, I ask my guest to lift the lid on what comfort foods have seen them through their lives. Because you can tell a lot about a person from what they eat behind closed doors. Hello, friends. Now, you find me fresh in from a long early morning walk on the streets of London town. Slightly flushed cheeks, slightly damp lycra.

0:57Look, I'm going to let you in on a secret. There is no drug on this planet that feels as good as listening to talking heads at 5.09 in the sunshine on empty pavements. Look, come back. I know I'm being annoying. I know telling people to exercise, it's really, really irritating, but getting out there early. It's amazing. There's no one about it sets me up for the day. I like to be that person at Pret door at 5.59, getting a filter coffee and having a little look through my phone. No one to bother me. Now, a woman who I bet has walked those streets of London too at 5am more than once, but on her way back from a showbiz party, is my guest today, the absolute legend.

1:45It's Lulu, people. Season 10, Lulu. It's bloody Lulu. Sorry, I'm going to let it go. I'm going to let it go. Lulu was belting out songs to crowds before most of her classmates had even mastered their times table. By 15, this woman had swapped school for showbiz. She'd moved to London. She'd kicked off a six decade career with a bang. Her first single, Shout, yep, you can all hear it in your heads, can't you? This landed her in the charts and on the path to global stardom. She's sung the theme tune to a Bond movie. She's won the Eurovision Song Contest. She has collaborated with the likes of Elton John, David Bowie, Take That.

2:32She's also acted in films, appeared in TV shows and sung on the West End stage. But the thing is with Lulu, her story is not all sequence and being in the spotlight. Behind this fame is a childhood shaped by a complicated home life and all that comes with the pressures of growing up in public. But she has re-emerged time and time again. She's not just still standing, but still selling out. Lulu is now in her 70s. She is looking fabulous and she's heading out on tour. She's a role model to all women in their second act who are thinking about putting their feet up. Am I a bit starstruck? Yeah I think I am.

3:14Damn you Lulu, yes I am. Better put a good frock on.

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3:57Lulu, welcome to Comfort Eating. Well, thank you for having me. This is an honor. It's a massive honor for me. I thought I was going to say it's an honor for you. It's a massive honor for me. I think, right, I have this theory that the world can be divided into morning people and night people. Now, I was just saying how much I love very, very early morning. Now as a doyen of entertainment You've actually earned the right to lie in bed till noon every day if you want to No can do Where are you at 5am usually these days? Turning over And maybe having to get up for a wee But because I'm 76 You know sorry guys it's just the fact of life But generally I don't like to get out of bed before 7 I try not to basically because I'm sleep deprived from my childhood and I wear myself out.

4:55I need to sleep. But I'd love to sleep till nine. You are a ball of energy though. I heard you getting out of the car on the other side of the road. Shouting like a maniac. I could hear the unmistakable sound of Lulu almost from the moment you came into the postcode. Not shy and retiring exactly. Just loud. Yeah. I don't know what's under this tea towel. It's a lovely pink. Bright pink. We're very on brand. This is the time where you reveal your snack to me. Now, this is the thing that you eat either standing at the fridge door after a gig or lying down after a long day in the studio. Lulu, please reveal your snack.

5:40I want you to tell me what it is, what it looks like, when you normally eat it. Right. Let's do it. Ta-da! Right. I brought it with me because I'm very fussy. This is a very happy day. I'm very, very, very fussy. Tell me what it is, Fussy Pot, then. What is this? I have to have really good coffee, strong coffee, and I like my milk hot. So we have very strong coffee. Oh, my God. What is this delicious pile of beige sweet treats that you have brought me? A cinnamon Danish and a cup of coffee in the morning sets me up. Right, hang on a minute. And, you know. Cinnamon Danish. Oh, they're warm. They're warm.

6:22I have a sweet tooth. Yes, so have I. But I can't do it at night, though. So first thing in the morning? Yeah. You must have spent your whole life trying to avoid sugar. You know, when I was young, I thought I was fat. And in the 60s, there was a lot of pressure. So there's still tremendous pressure for young girls, but not only young girls today, but young boys. Yeah. To be stick thin. Mm-hmm. And I get it. You know, if you're a clothes horse, then the clothes will just lay on your bones. If you've got big shoulders, I've always wanted big shoulders too, which I don't have. Because then your clothes just hang on you and they sit.

7:07if you've got boobs like me, or chachabingas, as I call them, and you've got a waist and you've got, I've got no booty. I mean, I actually, I make a confession. I was given an award for Rear of the Year. Wonderful. 150 years ago. I have no bum at all. It's as flat as a pancake. See, I'm still thinking about your chachabingas. What do you call them? Chachabingas. My chachabingas. I think that comes from Cheech and Chong in the 60s. They were funny Americans. I remember Cheech and Chong. Do you remember? Absolutely. Chachabingers comes from them. You are one name famous, like Cher or Madonna. I hope they copied me.

7:55I'm sorry. I mean, let's get real, girls. Who had the one name first? You know, let's get real. you've been in the public eye for 60 years over fame is very tough and you've said that the thing that's kept you on the straight and narrow has been a spiritual guru of 40 years now i know what a therapist is right i know what are you going to be my therapist i know i'm all everyone's therapist i know what two bottles of wine with a best friend is i know what spilling your guts to your hairdresser is. Can you please tell me, Lulu, what does a spiritual guru do and how do I find myself one? I don't know if you find your guru or your guru finds you.

8:47Okay. You know the saying about when the student is ready, the master appears. I think that was very true in my case. My whole family have always been what I call, and I'm picking my fingers up here and doing this sort of parenthesis thing. We've always been seekers. I've always said my prayers at night. And I get down on my knees every morning. So I have a very acute awareness that there's something bigger than me. But I came across my guru or she found me when I was really looking to learn to meditate. Okay. Having been in the music business since I was just 15 and running, never looking back, in fact, never standing still, and being in the present, I never was in the present.

9:34I was always running forward. Did you meet at a party or something like that? You don't meet a guru at a party. A true guru, a spiritual guru, they don't do parties. Don't do parties? No, they don't. They kind of hang out in ashrams and places like that, you know? Did you meet at an ashram? In the Himalayas, you know? Yeah. I went to a center to learn to meditate, and there on the wall were pictures of gurus, great spiritual teachers from a long lineage. Yeah. And I had never been able to sit still. I still find that a challenge. At that point in my life, I was married to John, and I had a son, and we were both running.

10:20We were both very, very ambitious, very driven. but I'd been doing it since I was 15 and I think I was burning myself out. I would never have admitted that then but I desperately needed to be still and now I know what that is. You become still, you turn your focus within and what happens is there's a whole inner world that is kind of your core stability. Would she tell you what to eat? I don't know what you think a guru is but It sounds like you think I'm going to somebody and paying them 50 quid, you know, for an hour session with them. It's not a therapy. Yeah. And it's not. Can you see my genuine befuddlement about the idea of a guru?

11:04People use that word quite loosely, though, today. You say someone is an exercise guru, someone is a food guru, someone is a styling guru. The real name of a spiritual teacher and a spiritual guide is in India called a guru. they live a very very sort of solitary life it's quite mysterious actually so hard to answer the question quickly but let me tell you it changed my whole life do you think that fame is very different now from when you began yes i think it's harder because the stakes are even higher in the 60s when i started we were just discovering this country was on everyone's mind everyone was watching this country to find out what was going on musically, what was going on in the arts, fashion.

11:55The Beatles were at the head of everything, actually, because they brought that attention through their music to this country before it was all about America. I didn't like British music, for instance. I only liked American music until the Beatles. Since the 60s, the Beatles started to write all the songs. Everybody wanted to copy them. Everybody wanted to be like them. Everyone wanted to be like us in this country. So the world was watching us.

12:25I'm going to go right back to your childhood. You were born eldest of four children in a Glasgow tenement with your parents, Betty and Eddie. Okay, your father, Eddie, works in the meat market, but it's not just meat, is it? What's he looking after? He was called an offal dresser, which meant he used to cut, I think, the offal out of the animal. And he would bring home delicious cuts of the most marvelous steak and liver. And we even ate pig's trotters, sweetbreads. My son was very, because my son's in the restaurant business, and he was thrilled to tell all his stuff. My mother has been eating this kind of food for years because it wasn't fashionable always to have that kind of food in restaurants.

13:12Today it is. So he's cooking at home. My father was the cook when I was young. Because he'd come home with the bones, with the meat. I mean, he'd chop the onions off, he'd put the liver on, and, you know, there would be liver and onions, and then it was, you know, big pieces of meat. Kidneys. You'd get minced meat, but he wouldn't encourage that. Was there vegetables? Yeah, there would be mostly root vegetables, I think, because then you could boil them. Yeah. They didn't really take time to chop, chop, chop, fine, and then just throw them around. And you're the oldest. Do you all sit around the table together?

13:48and is it kind of harmonious? Is it happy? My childhood was noisy. I don't think it's a surprise that Shout was my first hit. There was music all the time. We would sit down for one meal, not every day, no, but a couple of times a week. But there was always stuff. There was a very small fridge and he would keep cuts of me in there, but my mother would give them to the neighbours and we would have beans on toast. When he was out. When he wasn't there. I've read a bit about your family at this point and I really identified with this idea of the big shouting. Shouting, screaming matches all the time.

14:28Shouting, arguing, screaming. We didn't speak to each other. We just yelled at each other. Because my parents argued all the time and I was saying to my producers earlier, it fosters this idea where you're shouting all the time. To be heard, to be seen. When I left, when I was 18, 19, I was thoroughly surprised by other people's families because I thought everybody shouted and everybody's. I got that they weren't like mine though. Because I had girlfriends and you go to the house and it'd be very quiet. The mother would be ironing to the radio. It's like in a foreign country. I'd gone to a planet, another planet.

15:05My house was chaotic, noisy, loud. If it wasn't singing and music playing, it was shouting and arguing. Yeah. Or, you know, I was being told to clean up and clear up and wash up and iron and whatever. It feels like you and your mom love each other, but there's definitely a... My mother and I argued till the day she died. It was this tough relationship. I love both of my parents, but they had their issues. Were you hooked? Were you cuddled? Were you told that you... I don't think my parents were very... Did they tactile? Did they tell you that they loved you? When my father was drunk, he would tell me he loved me, which I never appreciated.

15:44But I knew I was loved. We all knew we were loved and we all loved each other. But it was hectic and chaotic. And it was hard for my mother to deal with, I think. And my father was a drinker, so. How did that affect you? It had powerful effect on me, long lasting. And ultimately, I've worked through a lot of it. I had to go into therapy writing this book, which took a year, because it triggered a lot of stuff in my childhood that I pushed away that were painful. And I think it's true, doing a podcast like I do, same as you, everybody I talk to, it's all about our childhood. Yes. It's all about our childhood and how it affected us.

16:28But now, if anyone has anything good to say about me, my character, my work ethic, even my longevity in this business, it's all down to my childhood. So as difficult and as tough as it was, I'm still here. He's still here. One thing I was really interested about with your dad is his rather flexible relationship with the rules of the meat market. Yeah, he would make cuts from certain animals and he would take them to the pub and he'd exchange them maybe for a few drinks, but he'd also exchange them for a few bob. The fishmonger would give him fish and he'd give the fishmonger some steaks or some liver or leg of lamb.

17:15I don't know what he gave them, you know, but he was also getting always getting parcels, you know, past. And he had a boss in the meat market who allowed this. Because he took his cut. That's the way the world goes, let's be honest. Absolutely. How did he get the offal out of the market? Did he have it like down each leg? He wore big overalls and big old dirty old, big pockets, you know.

17:48You won a singing competition at five and were publicly performing by nine years old. Okay, looking back at that point, when do you decide that this is the future? When do you take it seriously? I never did that. No? Dreaming of what? Being famous? Yes. Dreaming of meeting the Beatles? Dreaming of having a hit record? Oh, God, what, are you crazy? My feet were firmly planted in the ground. Really, though? On the floor in Glasgow, and I was going to be a hairdresser. Really? I had no delusions of grandeur. And I had no, maybe I didn't allow myself to dream. But then what, did your parents not have an eye on the fact that there could have been money there to put you?

18:35No, my parents were very simple. No. And also had no idea about business. Yes. As far as business was concerned, was my father taking a few cuts of meat at the meat market and making a few extra bob. At 14, you leave Glasgow behind. And I found this part of your story, you know, through today's life quite astounding because at 14, you head to London, seek your fortune. You're under the care of a manager. Tell me about the day you left. Oh, no, it didn't happen. Now you're leaving. This is it. You're off to public school or boarding school and now you're going to London. No, it was like I went down to London for an audition, came home.

19:20Glasgow Central to Euston? No, in a car. We couldn't afford train fares. Okay. So we all piled into a car and the man who owned the club we sang at drove us. I thought Glasgow was big, but then after being to London, I realized how small it seemed. That was a shock. You released Shout in 1964. You were 15 years old. Yeah. Now this pivotal moment comes when Paul McCartney and John Lennon are asked what their favourite single of the week is. That was one of the amazing things, yeah. And they say, Lulu's Shout. They love Lulu's Shout, yeah. And that was that. So life does become this huge whirlwind, TV appearances, interviews, promotional gigs.

20:01So it hasn't stopped really since I was 15. Yeah. I haven't stopped. You're away from home. your mom and dad aren't there who's are you eating who's making sure you get fed you still have to have calories every day in and out you know you're not walking alone I have a band I have a manager I have a an agent I have thousands of people around me making sure I get from A to B yeah so all that falls into place but at the same time I am on the road in a van and in the van at night I'd have to have chocolate and see what it's I was gonna say so then I developed spots I got pimples back then I mean what what chocolate bar if you're stopping at a service station Kit Kats Kit Kats Mars bars air Maltesers lovely loved it all not meant to eat that type of stuff when you're singing oh you and I can't do it if I'm singing no I can't eat chocolate because it It collects in the back of the throat, the vocal cords, and it coats the cords.

21:00But then I knew nothing. I knew nothing. I'd have a curry and go straight on stage. You start hanging out with the Beatles a lot. You become friends. This is at the peak of their global stardom. Now again, talking about food. What do you remember of that time together? Are they into restaurants? Are they into dinner parties? They had just come from Liverpool. You know, we're all learning. Yeah. It takes time when you have not come from a sophisticated family. I remember once being invited to the White Elephant just off Park Lane. And it was a very salubrious area, very sophisticated. And my manager was very sophisticated.

21:44And she invited you to the White Elephant? She would take me everywhere. She would take me at her husband and go with her. But I remember they're all ordering from this enormous, to this day I hate menus. I can't make up my mind. I vacillate too much about it. Do you find the menu intimidating at the White Elephant? Intimidating, and some of it was in French. The waiter was taking the order. I remember a couple of people before I was asked ordered something called escargot. I'd never heard of escargot. And I'm like, I'll have escargot. Trying so hard. and when they came there was this shell and they had these two implements one that you held the shell with the fork that you put inside and I thought it's whelks it's only whelks it's whelks but I then from then on in everywhere I went I would ask do you have a scargo

22:46I feel faintly ridiculous asking these questions about rock stars and also food because a lot of them you never see them eating but then there's this point this very pivotal point in your life you meet David Bowie you get along like a house on fire now he makes one of those types of grand statements that people make at 4am he says he's going to record a hit with you lots of people have promised me a lot of things at 4am in the morning lulu that they'll do books with me i never get that yeah they'll do books with me they'll get married to me but this man he did come through on the promise now obviously i've never seen any footage of bowie eating do you associate him with food in any way?

23:32No, I don't. He was a live wire. David was stick insect. Slim? No, emaciated, I would say. I think that was partly how he looked. But he did like that look. And Jagger is the same to this day. But with David, it was all about the artistic process. I never think of him and food together that's an interesting point you've just made yeah so there's I mean and you're saying the same about Jagger smoking cigarettes cigarettes just cigarettes because you see these beautiful photos if I was to google you guys now and you always seem to be sitting in restaurants and like you know it's all glorious and glamorous but yeah not a lot of food being eaten I was always into the food I have to tell you but I did struggle trying to control it because it seemed like everybody else in the world was thin but me.

24:26That's how I saw it. It wasn't actually true. I'll tell you something I remember. There was a girl, you know, wheels on fire going down the road. What's the name? I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. Can someone Google wheels on fire. Which wheel can explode. Julie Driscoll. Driscoll. So Julie Driscoll, I always thought, was one of the most beautiful girls I'd ever seen. She decided to become educated and healthy. And she taught me how to make my own natural yogurt. Because I was so amazed at the transformation in her. And I thought, well, I want to be Julie Driscoll. I want to look just like her.

25:11I never will because she's exquisitely beautiful. Making your own yogurt is the least Glaswegian tenement thing I've ever heard. It's the most unglamorous thing you've ever heard of either. But I used to make this yogurt in my kitchen and I used to go to all the health food shops and there were very, very few in those days. Organic. That wasn't even a word that was in our vocabulary really in those days. Can I ask you about what it is in your personality that makes you so good at collaborations? you've done so many wonderful collaborations with people whether it's sting elton marty peller running keaton paul mccartney so many and when you look at the collaborations today they do feel very transactional as if you can almost hear the the credit card going through the machine but then with your collaborations they always seem very heartfelt and it feels like you are friends with these people.

26:13What is it about you? How can you pull this off? First of all, I never really wanted to be a solo singer. I like being in a band. I would have liked to have been in a girl group. That wasn't meant for me because as soon as I had success with Shout, the record company wanted to ditch my band. They only wanted to be about me. And I held on for about a year or 18 months, but it didn't last. It was obvious that people were asking for me to talk on TV shows and perform on my own and do duets with people and speak to people. I think I'm a people person. And you know what? I'm here in this body, in this lifetime, to connect.

26:55My manager just had the most incredible faith in me. She said, I could do anything. You can dance, you can act, you can act. I can. And therefore she would get work for me, which would mean that those things happened. And then there's this collaboration in 93, which I think everybody listening to this will remember. Take that. Relight My Fire. Absolute belter of a track. Now, at this point, they are the biggest boy band on the planet. it reaches number one in the UK immediately. You tour with them in 94. You're collaborating at this point with the biggest boy band of that era. Children with a group of kids.

27:41Yes, it's true. I was like, when they first came to me, I said, are you having a laugh? I'm 40 or maybe I was just over 40. How old are they? They're not even 20 yet. Any of them are there. Did you go on the tour bus? Of course. I could imagine that the tour bus, and with the greatest of respect to Gary Barlow, smelled. I would imagine that the tour was smelled of socks, Lynx aftershave. No, it didn't smell bad. And there were no need to have hot noodles. Those boys were doing very well. You have a chef when you're on the road, but I bet you there was a lot of, let's just get some fish and chips.

28:18Because that's the kind of people we are. I mean, right now, my favorite thing about going on tour is going up north and finding the best fish and chip shops. so you and the boys were eating chips we didn't fish chips there was a chef and we didn't eat his food too you say you were older than take that but you were like 40 I'm not sure exactly what age but yeah I was around that age first of all I could be their mother for sure well where I come from you have babies when you're 15 or 16 but when I was with them I was the same age as them what did you think when people started saying that you were obviously having an affair with Jason I was slightly embarrassed Were you?