S5 E6: Mary McCartney, photographer

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:07I'm Grace Dent and this is Comfort Eating from The Guardian. A podcast where we pay homage to the lesser celebrated foods in life. Because even as a restaurant critic, I believe the food that matters most is often that snack you cobble together when you're curled upon the sofa. Each week, I ask my guest to lift the lid on what comfort foods have seen them through their lives. Because you can tell a lot about a person from what they eat behind closed doors.

0:44Friends, welcome. You find me in my kitchen musing over one of life's fundamental dilemmas. Are you a Beatles or a Stones person? I think the world divides neatly into the two camps. Myself, you see, I like the raw sexiness of the Stones, but then it is the Beatles who seem to, they just reveal themselves more to me as I age, which is why I'm beside myself, because a member of the McCartney family is swinging her way over to my place in a taxi right now. Mary McCartney will be here very shortly. Now before she gets here, I am having the absolute top tier of sneaky snacks. What I'm having here is something I've been eating since the 70s.

1:37It's a Dairy Lee triangle. What am I having it with, you're asking? Absolutely nothing. It's just primordial goo in my mouth. Now that That is 1978 And my mother shouting You're not eating derrily triangles out of the fridge are you? No mum The trick is to not let the silver paper Touch your fillings That's a working class joke Because only working class people have got silver fillings Doesn't work with Invisalign, hang on It's completely It's all over my hands. Mary McCartney is a chef. She's a writer. She's a photographer to the stars and an ambassador for Meat Free Mondays that we definitely do around here in this house.

2:30She's also daughter of Paul McCartney. She's the McCartney that I want because she's the food obsessive with her cooking show, Mary McCartney Serves It Up on Discovery and a clutch of cooking books to her name. What do you actually grow up eating though if your mother is Linda McCartney and your dad is the father of rock and roll? Vegan tequila? I can't wait to find out what this chef and cookery writer is chewing on when nobody's looking. First of all, I need to get just the pointy bit out the end of this wrapper. It's disgusting, I know. Thank God we don't film this. I'll just hide this behind the toaster.

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3:48Mary McCartney, welcome to Comfort Eaton. Hello, I'm so happy to be here. So lovely to have you. I'm going to go deep really quickly. Your two great passions are photography and cooking. You have combined them into a successful career. Is that the secret to happiness? it definitely makes me happy and it connects me with people in the world my photography I'm always taking portraits of people or I like to be invited into somebody's personal space so it feels like a mini adventure and pleasing people through food is something that definitely brings me happiness I love the fact you didn't shy away from the idea of happiness though you didn't kind of say what is happiness I know I mean sometimes I say yes to a situation and then I'm a bit like on the way I'm like why did I agree to this because it definitely takes me out of my comfort zone at times but those are also the adventures I go on when was the very last time that you seriously wished that they would cancel five minutes before you went to do it because you're scared uh I don't do that so much for when I'm working but more like for dinners when I'm just like I'm one of those people that loves to lie in front of the tv eating crisps and dipped in hummus and watching goggle box or the bake-off do you know what they call it they call it high uncancelled plans and that's what i get whenever somebody says oh you know and they begin by going i'm so sorry i know i can't i'm just like child care issues or somebody's got some kind of contagious thing and you go, I've got time to myself back.

5:33Yeah. You can almost just feel the bra, you're unhooking the bra. Literally get the sweatshirt on, get the elastic waistband sweat pants on. So my two big loves, 80s electronic music and Elizabethan court life. So these are my two passions. And I'm wondering, do you think I can merge these into one career? I think definitely. That's like a whole new genre waiting to happen. I'm sure you've already thought of it. Right, hang on. Let's get back on to doing a podcast because I'm having so much fun. Yes, should we actually eat? Each week, my guest shares with me their ultimate comfort snack. It is a ladle of love when life has thrown you lemons, but you don't feel like making lemonade.

6:20Mary McCartney what is underneath my slightly stained Fortnum and Mason's tea towel okay now that was me trying to be posh I think love it it's a classic the sandwich it's a proper honking sandwich this is the honking sandwich this is your one this is my one this one there's two types here this one first my main motto is don't be afraid of a condiment so there's a lot going on in this so there's definitely right there's pickle yeah but branston pickle i'm eating pickle off the mic stand and it's the branston pickle like the little chopped version so it's much more convenient to eat in a sandwich that's the the chopped one is the one i think i think that sometimes people feel like they're being disloyal to the past yeah i'm gonna dip in here too and then we've got like a selection so what basically my fridge is a collection over the years i collect condiments because they last forever so like the middle shelf has probably like 20 25 condiments in it or as they're like doubled up and layered and all the way to the back like jenga basically there's just you've got one of those fridges i go always with the mayo always i don't use butter i use mayo on both sides.

7:44No dry bites. No dry bites all the way up to the edge quite liberal then I've gone Branston chopped then I've done mustard today. There's a lot of mustard in it. I think I might have done too much for you sorry. It's okay I didn't need those taste buds it's fine. Usually a thinner layer um and then I've got this great cheese which is from Ahimsa Dairy crazy place in Rutland Farm where they leave the calves and the cows so it's like a happy cheese and then crispy lettuce and a little drizzle of balsamic on the lettuce. So, yeah. But any day it could be different. I love that you called that happy cheese.

8:22Yeah. Happy cheese, keeping the cows in the calves. Actually, I did spot some crisps in your kitchen. I would love to shove some crisps in there, but it might be a bit loud for the quarter. Those crisps that you saw were actually pizza-flavored. Yeah. So that would have been a real problem. Oh, and then I've brought you something from the new cookbook. This is like a chickpea tuna type of, it's not tuna, but it's like mixed together like a tuna filling, which is another thing. So anything schmissed in between two pieces of bread is my comfort food. I'm going instinctively in for the chickpea tuna.

9:02First chickpea tuna ever to be on comfort eating. to him i like a deep sandwich i'm wearing my glasses and what i'm gonna say is all i can after eating one of your sandwiches all i can see is two big smears of mayonnaise up the front

9:24your parents paul and linda mccartney famously vegetarians long before it was popular long before it was a thing people spoke about your mum Linda pioneered a vegetarian food range being veggie in the 70s before your mum founded that company what do you remember of eating as a family mum and dad when we became veggie they've said look we don't want to feel like we're missing out so it was a lot of listen remembering mum and dad talking about like what are we going to have for Christmas dinner what are we going to have you know so it really normalized it eating out was a different thing quite difficult going to a local restaurant what did they think when you all marched in it was more the food it was just like back then it was a lot of ratatouille and sort of nuked vegetables and stuffed red peppers and stuff ratatouille but yeah I mean watching the movie ratatouille really makes me want to eat ratatouille because that's beautiful but that's not what I grew up eating in the like 70s and 80s.

10:32At home what were the staples around the table? Well I mean like I've brought you sandwiches and also because my mum was American big chef salad we had a big wooden salad bowl and inside it she'd put like the contents of the kitchen and you know, chopped up. So it would be like lettuce and bits of avocado and bits of cheese. You didn't want to miss out. Did you feel like you missed out? I think eating out was more difficult, but at home it was fun. And I would, my mum would always make the kitchen the most fun part of the house. So we'd be there and I'd help her chop and cook. And then when we got older, she would request things.

11:12She'd be like, tonight, can you guys make a fresh pesto or something? And birthdays, you could have anything you wanted. Whoever's birthday it was what did you ask for on your birthday well I would often do I loved my mum's cream of tomato soup yeah and then she made a really incredible quiche that you'd get it out of the oven and it would rise like a souffle yes you were born in London and your dad not to put a fine point in it so he's a big rock star your parents tried to keep it as normal as possible for you and your siblings, for Heather, for Stella, James, Beatrice. But as you've grown up, are there memories that come back and you think, actually, that wasn't normal?

11:58There are situations like growing up, we would go on tour with mum and dad. So those things are interesting memories. And I think even though my mum was who she was, my dad is who he is, they were quite approachable and relaxed. You know, we would sit having dinner on our laps watching the telly and stuff. Yeah, it's kind of normal snapshot of family life. I know it doesn't feel normal, but I mean, things like we'd be, as a kid, I'd be watching EastEnders and dad would come in and I'd be eating and he'd come in and he'd start playing guitar. And then we'd be like, can you, like, I'm trying to watch the TV.

12:37But I was like, dad, just like, another time. now I don't do that I suppose your parents trying to do anything that's kind of meaningful and soulful is embarrassing when you're 12 or 13 well now I'm that embarrassing parent

13:01when you were living with your whole family was it uh the kind of house where people came around or were you, some places are and some places aren't. Like my mum and dad did not like the pop-in of people. It was quite a quiet house. What kind of house was yours? It wasn't like a pop-in. It was social, but it was more planned social. But I do have friends where it is just like open house. Yeah, you see, I can't cope with that. Well, I kind of want to be like that though, don't you? Absolutely. In my dreams, if I do home alteration, I do it for the imaginary me. who wants people to come around. A hundred percent.

13:38I do the same. And also because I have that Liverpool background. So like for New Year's, we'd always go to family parties up in Liverpool and they were some of my best favorite memories ever. Yes. So we've both got, when my dad's passed away now, but Scouse Dads. We like Scouse Dads. Scouse Dads. Scouse Dads. And I'm always interested to see my dad in the 70s, when he ever did childcare, looking after his own child, he only had two recipes up his sleeve. And one was beans on fried bread. Yeah. And the other. By the way, yum. Delicious. I would eat that now. Delicious. And the other was beans, again, flung into his version of spag bol.

14:27Mm-hmm. So. All based around beans then. Oh, but it's just a lot of beans. I'm kind of wondering, did your dad have any recipes up his sleeve in the 70s? Yes, his recipe that I learned from him was his mashed potatoes because they're like proper, just really mashed. I think one of the secret things he does is uses a fork after at the end just to fluff it up. So he uses a traditional masher and then at the end fluffs it to get any other little bits out. I love how men will just do that one thing really well. So therefore that becomes their thing. So the woman's running around with 11 pans on the go, but then they go, just let dad do his mash.

15:10You know, it's that. And it was the same with my dad with his, with Brussels sprouts. If we were having like a massive meal, he would just do the sprouts very quietly. Yeah. But for about three and a half hours while listening. How do you feel about Brussels sprouts? i love them but i am wary of them i think that answer i think if i'm not going to put too fine a point in it i feel like we know each other now i think that they create violent wind yeah they can be smelly they can even be smelly when they're cooking they're smelly when they're cooking and then what happens is they come out and you put a load of something oily on them and some salt and then you eat them and you have another and you have one and you go this is delicious they're not as bad as they were in the 70s and you eat another and another and then you go into the lounge for the rest of the Christmas day in a very enclosed space crack open a window and you're trying to watch Wallace and Gromit um on the television and you just think this is just this is ridiculous my dad always like oh they're like a perfect little miniature cabbage but and I love cabbage but I love them sort of shredded cut really thinly and then I make them into like a stir fry for Christmas.

16:22So you only cook them for a second so they don't get too overcooked. And then I love them. I'm going to say that al dente Brussels sprouts may be the most lethal wind-wise of all though. Nobody's. I wonder the way I do it. They're less, I don't remember getting wind from them though. I'm going to have to experiment. If I ate them, I would just immediately go upstairs and then just hide until maybe the day after boxing day i'm never making you that almost i think the meals after christmas are possibly more delicious but do you know why you think because i agree i agree and why we think that is because we're anti-social and everyone's gone by that point right so we love that in front of the tv so we love the idea of christmas and being bountiful everybody come but the most delicious part is the one that you eat directly from the fridge when you've literally just got two roast potatoes on a plate.

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18:17higher power, how can you resist? Comfort Eating is packed with funny, moving stories about my family and my childhood, as well as recipes and stories about recording the show.

18:39You spent a lot of your summers as a family up in Scotland on High Park Farm, a remote place surrounded by chickens and dogs and ponies. What do you remember from those summers? It was a tiny house. I shared the room with my siblings. It had two bedrooms, a teeny bathroom and the kitchen living area. So it was very compact. The thing that came to mind is being outside. And because it was a farm, you could go out all day exploring and building camps. But But I mean, the main thing was we had horses and I just learned to ride by being on a horse, riding out, the horse chucking me off, me having to walk home and then learning to ride that way.

19:24Like, oh, next time, like I'll hold on better. So it was just like this big adventure of trial and error and nature, the pleasure of being in nature, like riding through bracken and little rivers. And I'd keep little bottles of apple juice in the river to keep it chilled and then go back and do imaginary games. One time it went fizzy, probably because it had gone off a bit, but then it felt like cider or something. So, yeah, that was like an adventure to me. Often my sister Stella by my side. That would never happen now that people would say, just take the horse out. Yeah. And if it throws you off.

20:04I know. What effect did it have on the family dynamic when you all decamp into this wild space. It was relaxed, but also in a way, I'm going to use the B word, there were like really boring moments. There were no iPhones or iPads. It was actually really great. I would engage my imagination. Sometimes I try to work out what we actually did. But how do you have so many memories? Like when you say Scotland to me, I'm like, I can remember the blades of grass, the flowers. walking in a stream with my trousers rolled up just daydreaming and not really doing much as a child when did you begin to create things in the kitchen the first time was a bit of a disaster it was in scotland and i was so young but i really remember it because i remember getting really excited and going around the kitchen and my mom and dad were having tea with somebody and I'm little because I'm my viewpoint in my memory is looking up at the table and I just went around and they were having like milky coffee and some cookie or something and I mixed all of it together yes and then pretended I baked it and then gave it to them and that you know that thing where they lovingly like pretended but I knew it was absolutely disgusting but it was so much fun.

21:29There's nothing like your parents' humour in you when that arrives. That's when you know you've got great parents. That was my first cooking experience, but it was inedible. I know that a big influence on your cooking is America. And you spent so much time there as a kid. Your mum's family, they come from New York City and Long Island. I love the idea of London, Scotland but then getting off the plane yeah loved it and loud the yellow taxis the buildings and the delis the delis oh god like so that's where the sandwiches oh that's where that's where it all comes from it was like we'd go all the time to visit my uncle my grandfather and my cousins so my cousins um were the same age as us so we they'd just take us out the first thing we would do when we go to New York to visit my grandfather would be go to Mimi's pizza and get a huge pizza yes um so New York's like the huge pizza that comes in the big they're huge they're like eight slices in New York you buy a pizza by the slice and like one or two slices is a whole meal we would go there and it was just heaven heaven heaven heaven if you walked into Mimi's right now and sat down what pizza are we ordering first of all you wouldn't sit down because it's like counter service it's like bustling new york you go in you kind of order it you chat with them all but i would just order with just a regular slice what's on what's on this slice like a really great tomato sauce and just cheese i get anxiety sometimes when i first get to america i get anxiety walking into these places because they have no patience with people i know yeah you need to know what you're going for.

23:16Are you dithering? I've never been to memes before. I haven't done any research. I'd walk in and I'd go, hello. And then what do you want? You need to sort of know how to cut through New York people and give it as good as they give it to you. You see, then I suddenly just lose my Northern accent and then just kind of start speaking louder and like Liz Hurley. which is fine but after a few sentences i go back to being carlisle they won't understand you anyway ordering water is difficult water water well let's meet in new york and i'll take you around and i can be your translator can you go in first places we'll go in together and we'll just have a bit of fun you've said that as a kid your mom and dad touring around the world with wings so do you tag along hang out backstage and i'm wondering this is long before anybody put those headphones on people like so first of all i'm worried about my hearing i know it's amazing I'm touch wood have really good hearing yeah you must have been left dancing by the bass bin a lot of times yeah but you can hear yeah but most of the people that I love the most are half deaf so I don't know how I've got away with that so I've got like a rattly ear that I absolutely put down to raves I went to in 1992 you know I've never been to a proper rave I'm so gutted I feel like i've missed out we could do that after we have pizza can we do you do you handle the rave i'll handle the new york food deal the new york rave scene and not ready for two women probably in in in heels and nice with nice handbags or are they or are they are they i think they are so i'm gonna do it now we're doing this

25:31you've been a photographer for years and now years and years but now now you have your own tv show mary mccartney serves it up it is emmy nominated i might add do you did you find it hard moving from behind the camera to in front yeah it was really interesting and a huge learning curve because it's, you know, to do a recipe, to show you a recipe, my real self would be like, Grace, like, right, just chill. Let's get this. Let's cook it. It's going to be fun. It's going to let's prep ahead. Enjoy, enjoy. But when they're cooking, the director would be like, Mary, you need to perk up. Like tell a story, chop the onion, tell a story, do something.

26:22So it was sort of like chop and chat and look into the camera, which made me feel a bit silly but then I really got into it and I loved it it became sort of quite addictive in a way and it taught me a lot about the recipes that I now write because I just simplified them simplified them simplified them what people don't know about the chop and chat format on tv shows is that so you are you have to simplify it so much to get it done in time so So you're then kind of filling in the gaps in what you're saying. But then when you take it over to people to eat, it's often not the actual recipe that you would have made at home.

27:06Yeah, it's changed. But then I love those kind of challenges. So I've adapted it to being the same thing, but simplified, which actually has helped my style of writing. And my reason for doing this is simple, easy recipes and demystifying that kind of aspect of veggie cooking being more complicated. So it's actually benefited me. I've eaten some pretty ropey things on TV. I love that. Do you know? I love watching. But that's, I love watching when the chef goes, here you go, and they put it down on some kind of live television show and you think absolutely none of that spring onion is cooked and that is raw.

27:48But can I tell you? all the stuff that I made is real and we would do it and eat it but there's one thing that we didn't get on camera which really to this day it's just like comes into my mind is the first episode I had Stanley Tucci came on as a guest and I made him this black bean burger and he's not veggie so I was fully aware that I was giving Stanley Tucci a black bean burger similar to the style of my sandwich I brought you today it's like stacked with you know all the trimming yeah and we weren't filming, but he took a bite and I saw that look come over his face. And he looked at me and he said, this is one of my top five burgers I've ever eaten.

28:29And we didn't film it. But it doesn't matter because I could see that it was a success. Does it matter though? Well, it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't because I've grown up as a photographer and you miss those moments. And my mom would always say to me, if you miss something, she's like, it's a soul camera moment so I have it etched in my mind as this thing and I've just said it on your show so now it's in the world it's in the world of something that happened it's a soul camera moment it's just made my face just yeah it's such a lovely and it makes everything better because you're like oh I can remember that I can feel it

29:19for your new cookbook which is absolutely remarkable i'm not just saying that oh i'm i just read it agog you've cooked for everybody you've cooked for live tyler brian adams cameron diaz the list goes on who's been the most awkward person to cook for oh well in a brilliant way i have to say Dame Judi Dench I'm sorry because I'm obsessed with her but what I love is there was a message with a list of the things that she didn't like to eat and an apology sort of saying now that you've seen this list you may have regret having ever asked me so can I that was brilliant it were like as it drives it was a lot of things like red peppers or chili and things one thing she didn't like that I really is etched in my mind is carrots because I actually made her my shortcut apple tart which has four ingredients and I knew she'd like that but I then decided because I packed it up and took it to her home I made a last minute I made like this big sort of minestrone soup and I checked the list and I put carrots in because it wasn't on the list but then she sort of looked and I was like if I put something in and she was like well carrots but it was the cutest thing because she was like my reason for not liking carrots is because when I was a kid like you'd cut into them and they looked like twigs inside so I just loved her even more

30:56I absolutely love the phrase sole camera that you say that your mum talked about so in 98 you lose your mum um we both lost our mums from breast cancer you were 29 rubbish isn't it oh god yeah right yeah yeah it's yeah um i can tell you how we coped as a family i don't know if we did i don't know if we did i mean it's like i don't know why i'm laughing because i feel like there's going to be something bizarre that i wouldn't have expected as your coping mechanism oh god um work never stopped as long as you just keep on working then you don't actually have to well my father was like that too I think mine mine what time my mum died in like mid-April so one thing that helped was the time of year I remember it being like the blue bells were out in the woods and I remember looking up and there being like blue skies and nature and that kind of helped a bit because I was like oh well things you know it felt like a real sort of regenerative time of year and flowers blossoming and you know the breeze and the trees so I yeah if I get sad I do a lot of I've become a tree hugger I search out trees and walks and nature because then you feel bigger picture don't you yeah yeah I mean I am now I have a vision in my head of you just clutching an oak tree while your children go oh for the love of Only because the first time I ever did it, there was a tree.

32:35And I swear, his arms were stretched out at me. And I was walking my dog on my own. So I was like, fine. His arms are beckoning me in. So I actually did give it a cheeky little hug. But I was on my own. So nobody else saw. Were you on acid? No, I wasn't. I was completely, I was on a coffee, I think. I was on a coffee. You've got four boys. I know. Two boys with your first husband. Two boys with your second husband. They range from 12 up to 24. I can't even imagine a house with four boys and a husband. I'm thinking, yeah, a lot of... And a dog. Yeah. I mean, I thrive on chaos and it's busy and noisy and we talk over each other.

33:24Do any of them replace the toilet roll by themselves? They, I would like to say they do. And one thing I learned was that they pick up their own towels off the bathroom floor, which I'm very proud of myself. I think that's one of my best parenting moments. They hang up their own towels. I couldn't imagine them going like when they're older, going to people's houses and just leaving everything on the floor. So, yeah, that's Mary's parenting technique. feed them and get them to hang up their towels there you go tell me one thing that is a tradition that you emulate from your family life when you were a kid and one new tradition from now we're talking about our mums what I try and always do with them is celebrate her birthday so I'll be like look where do you want to go we can go anywhere you want to eat or I'll make anything you want or I'll get like a birthday cake and balloons and try and make things nice so that's a new tradition and then older tradition I mean it all goes back to sandwiches and bagels yeah and then traditionally it would be that moment that I touched on earlier is on our birthdays You get to just have exactly what you want.

34:49And my mom taught me this thing, which I make a lot for birthday occasions, which is like an ice cream cake. But it's so genius because it's more of an assembly job. Yes. So. Go on. Go on. I need to have this on my sleeve. Go on. You get like a cake tin and you line it with parchment. And then you buy any loaf cake that you like, like a Madeira cake, anyone you want and you just slice it into like one centimeter half inch pieces and you overlap it like shingle like a tile because you don't want gaps and you just smush it down on the bottom and then around the sides so it's like a pie crust it covers all of the cake tin and then you get like three tubs of your favorite ice cream so like chocolate strawberry mint chocolate chip and let it soften enough that it spoons out easily.

35:41Put it all into the middle and then put it into the freezer and push it all down. So you've got the loaf cake crust, the ice cream all filling all of the middle and then put it back into the freezer and freeze it solid and then make like just a normal icing. Just a normal kind of butter. Just like some butter or that. I love that flora plant butter. that with icing sugar and a little bit of vanilla extract and beaten so it's nice and fluffy and then you take out the frozen cake and you turn it upside down peel off the parchment and then just ice it and then put it back in the freezer and decorate it with loads of sprinkles and it looks as if it looks like a normal cake and it looks like you have just sweated over this cake it's It's really fun to make.