Why do people ghost?

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1:06Kimberley Wilson:Hello and welcome. I'm Kimberley Wilson. I'm a counselling psychologist and this is Complex. The psychology podcast that helps to bust through the myths and misinformation that's out there about our mental health. And in today's episode, we're exploring ghosting. And no, we're not talking about ghosts, the spooky-wooky kind. We're talking about when someone abruptly cuts off all communication and effectively disappears from your life or the relationship overnight.

1:46Kimberley Wilson:It originated in the world of online dating, but ghosting can happen in any relationship, friendships, family, or even during the job application process, the other person just stops responding. There is so much to talk about with my expert guest today. So let me be your guide from the haunted house of misinformation to the cozy living room of understanding.

2:17Kimberley Wilson:And I'm so delighted to welcome back psychotherapist Jennifer Cox. Hi, Jennifer. Hi, Kimberly. We have had some great conversations about rage and embarrassment and gaslighting. So listeners, once you've listened to this episode, do go back and scroll down in your feed and have a listen. You won't be disappointed. But Jennifer, remind us what you do. I am a psychotherapist. I present podcasts and I'm also a writer. and I love this topic I think especially because it keys into things that I'm really passionate about as in tying together psychological phenomena with what's going on in society in a larger way yes there's the social observation but if you don't mind me asking have you ever been ghosted yeah yes i have and it's brutal have you ever been the ghoster i'd like to say no as in i have no um retrievable memories of doing it to someone but maybe it's possible that there's someone out there who thinks or who feels that I did even if I you know wasn't aware I have to confess that I am a fan of the Irish exit Kimberly where you you kind of just dissolve from a party or a gathering without making your exit explicit yeah see now this sounds like a contradiction so I will need you to explain yourself.

4:01Kimberley Wilson:People are complex. It turns out. Thank you. I think this is going to be a really important episode. So let's get in there and bust some ghosts.

4:15Kimberley Wilson:So if you would be so kind to kick us off with a really clear definition of what ghosting is. So I guess these days, because we're all so keyed into our phones in terms of our relationships and our communications. It's the act of somebody disappearing digitally. And what does it look and feel like for both sides? So if we start with the ghost-y, the person who has been ghosted, what does that look and feel like? It probably, for most people, would trigger some really painful experiences of abandonment, of rejection it would probably tie us back to some quite primitive early experiences of fear around being left and what that means for us as humans it's a dangerous place isn't it it's also just really confusing like if you have in your mind everything's been okay or you know maybe the date wasn't amazing but it wasn't terrible and the person suddenly disappears there's a huge gap left yeah in your understanding of that relationship and then potentially yourself yeah i think that's right and i think the problem i have with it most of all is that it leaves all the work to the ghosty okay so let's talk about the ghoster what do we think or what could be happening for the person who suddenly ends communication there's now a sort of almost like an accepted form of especially with things like dating of just deciding yeah i'm not doing this anymore i'm just walking away this is this doesn't work for me uh and so there's that kind of decision making or there's the kind that i think is maybe engaged in a longer term relationship with a person and decides i don't want this anymore This isn't for me for whatever reason, but I can't face the conflict.

6:21I can't face the, in a sense, intimacy of having to really confront this. The difficult conversation. Yeah. I mean, imagine. It's hard work. So I'm going.

6:35Kimberley Wilson:And ghosting is different from just reducing communication or say something that I'm guilty of, which is forgetting to get back to people. It's really different to that. Yeah, I think there's something very intentional behind it. The person that has deliberately chosen to ghost, whether or not they would fully accept that that's what they were doing, isn't doing it because they've just forgotten. Okay, so that brings us nicely to an email that's coming from a listener about their experience of ghosting. And this listener I'm going to call Zoe. So, Jennifer, have a listen and tell me what you think.

7:14Kimberley Wilson:Zoe says,

7:44Kimberley Wilson:I've heard of being ghosted by romantic partners, but never best friends. And I'm still reeling from why it's happened. It's been a real knock to my mental health, and I've been seeking therapy to try to process why it happened. What's worse is that we work together, and she's coming back from maternity leave soon. So I'm not sure how to handle re-engaging in a professional setting without getting hurt. And that's a really heartfelt email, Zoe. Thank you very, very much for emailing us your experience. It does sound really tough. Jennifer, what are your feelings as you listened to that? Well, there are a lot of feelings, to be honest.

8:27I suppose there's also something more logical going on to do with her maternity leave, potentially. I'm wondering whether there is a kind of relationship between the fact that this friend has gone off on a maternity leave and seemingly has been unable, for one reason or another, we don't know, to keep this contact going. Just in a different place. I wonder that because when people have babies, I think it fundamentally changes their lives, but also potentially their minds. And not that that's necessarily a permanent state, but I think you have to kind of re-find your equilibrium. Maybe it'll be a slightly different one.

9:09So there's an aspect to it that I wonder, is it completely personal? Is it what we would kind of put into the really classic box of ghosting? Or is it a little bit more nuanced? But in terms of the feelings to do with just this absolute absence, this void.

9:28Kimberley Wilson:Yes, in what was a very intimate, close, consistent and long-term relationship. I mean, that's a real fracture, isn't it? It's a heartbreak. Yeah, it is a heartbreak. It's a heartbreak. And that heartbreak doesn't just happen in romantic relationships. No, it doesn't. But Zoe sounds heartbroken and it's really understandable. Yeah, that's so painful. Thank you, Jennifer. Let's get into the complexity.

9:58Kimberley Wilson:Okay, so I have some stats for you. Oh, I love that. So ghosting is incredibly common. According to the research that we found, 85 % of Gen Z and millennials have been ghosted Wow And a quarter of them after a first date And one in two of them have been ghosted by a close friend Your face is a picture I'm horrified, Kimberley I knew it was high But this feels like a way of life It's essentially a universal experience at this point It really is, isn't it? It used to be much harder to not see someone. Yeah. You know, if you were dating, you might have been introduced by a friend of a friend. And so you couldn't just disappear because that friend would be like, so hey, how did it go?

10:53Kimberley Wilson:And so that would have been much more difficult. Or you worked together or friendship groups were much more in person. there's something about the shift in society where you know we move away from our families of origin um and and our friendships of origin and then we're living these much more kind of satellite lives that makes it easier to separate and disengage than it would have been if we're still going to the same pubs or the same churches or whatever that we would have been before. If you had to go to the pub with someone that you'd sort of had a bit of a falling out with, but you were part of that group and that was the only place everyone went, you'd maybe have to sort it out.

11:42And this way, there is no sorting it out. There's no resolution, no repair.

11:47Kimberley Wilson:So let's have a think about the ghosties experience, the person who's been ghosted. Why is it so upsetting? Because, you know, one could say, you know, someone's just stopped messaging you it doesn't really matter it's not that big a deal but psychologically it really can knock us sideways i think in the first instance is that you just have no idea what's happened so some time needs to pass before you understand oh they're really they've gone they're not getting back to me and i think you just have to be waiting in this slight abyss for what this And if there's something the human brain hates.

12:28Kimberley Wilson:Oh, uncertainty. Uncertainty and waiting. Awful. That powerlessness. Yeah. And our brains are sense-making machines, aren't they? We create stories and narratives out of them. And this is like the last 40 pages of a book has just been ripped out. You just have no idea how it ends. Yeah, it is, isn't it? The story that I thought we were writing together has suddenly come to a very abrupt close. and I don't know what to do with it. Yeah, we're not co-authors. Suddenly I'm the subject and the author has just killed me off, psychologically speaking. And I think the name ghosting sounds like this airy-fairy sort of, oh, they drifted away.

13:10Whereas the reality and the way it feels, the way we experience it, is really something quite destructive. Quite brutal. Yeah.

13:20Kimberley Wilson:Having just said that, is it ever okay to ghost right and this is interesting because i think as we have been saying i think lots of people would agree ghosting is very painful but are there situations where the ghoster has the best of intentions i can't really easily think of a scenario in which it's ever better to just disappear from someone's life. There are friendships which aren't healthy and we shouldn't probably be in. But friendship exists as a sort of entity between two people. I think you kind of owe the relationship and that part of you that has invested in it some kind of experience of closure of ending.

14:11Okay. So why do people do it?

14:15Kimberley Wilson:Why do people ghost? I think it must fundamentally come down to some kind of discomfort or fear about the difficult conversation, about confronting something. Now, I would argue it's actually probably something in yourself, a part of yourself that you'd rather not see reflected back. So the danger, obviously, if you go to somebody and say, this isn't working for me anymore, I want out, then they may hold up some kind of a mirror and say, but actually, look at your behavior. I've put up with such and such from you for so long. and actually by having the conversation, not just the confrontation, as you're saying, with the other person, but confronting perhaps an idea of themselves.

15:14Kimberley Wilson:If I think of myself as a lovely person, a really good friend, and I am going to end our friendship, I have to then consider that I'm someone who is hurting someone else. Very true. And I become, to use an extreme word, but a kind of villain. I'm no longer the hero of my own story. I have to contemplate the possibility that I'm the villain in this scene. Yeah. And I'd rather not, thank you very much. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. And as you say, like a view of who we are to ourselves and in relation to another person, that this really disrupts. It's worth thinking we did an episode on avoidant attachment.

16:08Kimberley Wilson:And I guess very simply, an avoidant attachment is one that could be characterized as feeling as if you don't really need other people, feeling as if it's easy to feel separate from other people, feeling as though close relationships are suffocating and oppressive and other people are too needy. and avoidant attachment isn't necessarily people who don't need relationships or don't like to be attached but are kind of in denial to themselves about the importance of connection but there is this relationship between or perhaps they might find it quote-unquote easier to ghost if you're someone who has an avoidant attachment style.

16:54I think this is right and I think there is something quite permissive at large at the moment about allowing people certain behaviors because of their attachment styles or because of their alleged attachment styles well exactly and

17:07Kimberley Wilson:even if we live in an individualistic society as we do yeah human beings are fundamentally network social beings we're a social species we rely on one another you know none of us is surviving in the wilderness by ourselves. So we need cooperation. But I think what's happened is that instead of the village and building that tangibly with other people that we can touch and relate to and feel around us, I think we think we've created that in these really disparate sort of networks of comms, where it's message here, WhatsApp here, dating app here. And we're very diffuse and we can come and go as we like but actually because of what you're saying in terms of what we need as humans that sort of interdependence and leaning and nourishing each other with our minds and our practical abilities uh we're not getting any of that and actually are we really selling ourselves short with these kind of behaviors because if we're doing that at one end, what is that saying for the quality of relationship that we're building or able to build?

18:22Kimberley Wilson:And I also think about for people who might feel very anxious about endings or fearful of rejection, that sometimes there can be a preemptive strike, can't there? Yeah, you sort of get in there first. I think that's probably quite usual, isn't it? We think we know, we think we've already called it and as you say if we're someone who has a lot of experience of painful endings and we're thinking i need to save myself exactly this yeah we're completely like on fire to this sensation never again i'm out and this is really what ghosting is about isn't it it's kind of dealing with all of these very sticky aspects of human relationships loss moving on ending confrontation, conflict, disappointment.

19:11And that sense of trying to, like you say, protect yourself from any of the above.

19:16Kimberley Wilson:And I suppose I do just want to say, you know, with all of that said, that sometimes, particularly in the context of abusive or dangerous relationships, just leaving is the safest thing to do. So we are separating this idea of ghosting in relationships and friendships from perhaps cutting yourself off in order to keep yourself genuinely safe. Yeah, there's a huge difference.

19:49Kimberley Wilson:Okay, so this is a very broad topic. A lot of people are experiencing it. Can we put it on a scale or is it a binary? Is it either you're a ghoster or you're not? I think as with everything, most sort of psychological concepts operate along a spectrum. So I don't think it's probably possible to say someone out there is not capable of ghosting. But I think one can imagine that there would be a sort of pathological end of this. I think where it gets a bit confusing these days with things like online dating is that the ghosting culture is written in to so much of the normalness. So it's sort of almost a bit weird trying to chase things up when most people are just letting things go all over the place and chalking them up to, well, that was another dud experience.

20:50So I think it's really difficult in this climate to kind of say this person is a pathological ghoster when when so many people

21:02Kimberley Wilson:are when society is when society is yeah i think so and even in the job application process you know it used to be that you would get an email saying i'm sorry your application hasn't been successful at this time yes but now nothing you might not hear anything at all and that you know yes to you I'm one of 300 applicants but actually I'm me I'm me I'm a me and that is really hurtful and especially when it's on repeat if today's episode is bringing up difficult feelings around rejection for you please remember that there is support out there you can find information about helplines and mental health organizations on the BBC Action Line website the link is in the show notes.

21:53Kimberley Wilson:Okay, time for some practical advice for our listeners. And actually, I'm just going to turn it around here. If you are a ghoster, then my friends, it might be that you find endings really difficult and so the solutions are going to be about how you can get better at facing an ending so jennifer how can we get better at endings i think we need to first of all look at the part of us that is tempted to just walk and really try to connect with ourselves a bit better on that. So if we're sort of trying to protect ourselves on some level, which as discussed is probably what this move is answering, what is it that we're really frightened of here?

22:58And is it an opportunity to actually give something different a bit of a go and see what happens experiment with just staying there just staying and seeing what happens if you stay i wonder if there are features of this that are

23:17Kimberley Wilson:about identity and empathy so the first part being actually how would it feel to be on the receiving end of this behavior if so many of us have been ghosted yeah what was it like for us and the identity part is do I want to be the kind of person that elicits those feelings in others and it doesn't even have to be a difficult conversation but it can just be I think a respectful message it can be a text it can be email to just let someone know I'm like I said I'm taking a break or I think perhaps this friendship has come to an end or we had a great date but this is where it stops for me and that you can become the kind of person who takes the responsibility for letting people know where they stand yes and maybe for for some people just walking isn't that hard because they don't think they leave much of a footprint.

24:24Kimberley Wilson:That's true. You know, they don't have much to give and why would it affect the person? As in, they won't miss me, so maybe I'm making a big fuss by having a big goodbye. Exactly, yeah. And I wonder if this is maybe an aspect of the psyche of the ghost star, which is they just don't think that much of themselves. I think that's really true, that you think your presence won't be missed and so why announce your departure? Right. Yeah.

24:59Kimberley Wilson:And if, while listening to our conversation, someone is slowly realising, oh, that's something that I do, or perhaps, oh, I think I did that without even realising. perhaps I ghost people because you know it is hard to admit to yourself that this is what you do or that it's something you might have done what might be the first steps to a better awareness of your behavior well I think what you were saying earlier about empathy and trying to put ourselves in the shoes of the other person i think that can be quite a good anchoring point because from there if we're looking more through their eyes we might get a better view on ourselves so i think it is difficult as humans to really properly be able to visualize the impression we leave on others and many of us are kind of more inclined to think it's a negative one it's sort of negative to neutral.

26:03Whereas what we know from the many people who have been ghosted is that it's really, it's a very powerful experience. It's potentially a very harmful experience to have someone leave your life. So I think we have to assume that we do make a mark and we do leave a dent and respect that in our decision making.

26:26Kimberley Wilson:And if we come back to Zoe's email, if someone has been ghosted and is feeling hurt, embarrassed, rejected. There's so much shame and confusion attached to it. What's the one thing you'd want them to hold on to? So I think it's a really complicated situation. Anything where kind of two humans are involved is very difficult to just make kind of blanket declarations about, isn't it? But I think it's just so important that she lets herself feel how deeply this will have affected her and really lets herself hear the pain of it and doesn't try to sort of minimize it. Or as you said earlier, it's heartbreak.