Charli XCX

25:37Okay, I'm going to tell you a way that your parents are different than mine. There's many ways, but this is the biggest one that stands out to me. The way that my parents are different from Charlie XCX's parents. Your parents took you to perform at illegal raves. Never happened with me. And I heard that fact and I thought, this is really interesting because you were young at the time. They were taking you to illegal raves. These are parents who really, they were out of their comfort zone, especially your mom, to go to a rave and to take you to this world is a level of support that to me feels phenomenal.

26:17Yeah, of course. I mean, obviously at the time I was like, can you guys wait outside? You're like cramping my style. You know, I was like so ungrateful in a way. Because who wants to go to the rave with their parents? Like it's so fucking embarrassing. Especially when they jump on stage. You know, it's like you're like, oh, God. But also I will say they were very, very respectful of my space and stuff when we went. And yes, now with hindsight, I'm like, wow, that is so cool of them. They didn't have to do that. They kind of drove me up there and would sort of hang out in the back. And this is late stuff.

26:56This is like I would go on at 4 a.m., you know what I mean? And they were, yeah, like so kind of cool of them to do that. I will say like when I said to them that I really had this big plan to move in with one of the rave promoters when I was 16 in a warehouse in Hackney Wick, they drew the line there. And they were like, that sounds like a bad idea. And I was like, does it? I think it sounds amazing. And they were like, yeah, yeah, no. so they they were they were supportive you know i like them even more now i know yeah no they did draw the line yeah they're great they and and i think it's cool it's like my my dad was very much kind of like a self-made guy you know he like worked like super hard his whole life like working class background like really kind of like did his thing and did everything that he could to kind of have you know more for himself and i think he was very much like with the whole rave stuff he was kind of like oh like if you're really passionate about this then you should go and perform because maybe then you can do that for real and i think most parents would kind of be like you shouldn't do that that feels unreliable and stressful and why don't you pursue something else but i think he was always a bit of a dreamer um which sounds like a horrid sort of cheesy thing to say but he really was and and so i think for him it was like oh if you're passionate about something that's really cool like let's try and like figure that out and i feel very very very lucky for that you know it's very cool that do you ever say to yourself i could have been a really good tax attorney all the time all the time yeah because when i was watching your movie i was like I'm sorry, I said she's amazing, but tax attorney.

28:45I know. And we don't have a lot of them. I know, I know, I know. Yeah, my side hustle. It would be so great if that was your side hustle. After a massive show, where are you going? Well, I've got to go over these. Yeah. Who does your books? Couching the numbers. W2s. Yeah, CX. As a kid, you were listening to Spice Girls, No Doubt, Britney Spears. And then at some point at a young age, you start thinking about writing yourself, and that is a leap. What does the early, early writing for you look like? Is it pen and paper and trying to write things out in a book, or is it playing around with a musical instrument?

29:28It was a lot of keyboard, playing the keyboard. I had this Yamaha keyboard, and I was making a lot of beats on there and then like recording kind of separately all the different layers. So yeah, it was kind of like writing lyrics and then trying to figure out chords and very much like piano orientated. And I think it all began because I had this boyfriend who turned out to be gay. And honestly, all the signs were so there. He was like the coolest. And like not many, like, you know what I mean? not many like 15 year old boys are like that cool and he was like so cool he had great style great taste he made me a mixtape of stuff that I'd like never heard before and I think it was like that was kind of like the moment where I was like oh like he kind of like opened my um eyes to all of these different artists that I hadn't really been listening to that much before like some kind of indie bands and then like stuff like Gang of Four and like I don't know like a lot of stuff that I had not really, that it hadn't been on my radar.

30:40And at that point, I think I kind of had the hunger to try and write things myself a bit. Yeah. Well, I mean, step number one is always you have to put stuff into the machine. You have to open up your head and a volume of not just a type of music, but every type of music. And they call it having big ears, but just the more stuff you're listening to at an early age, I swear to God, they're going to figure out that it happens almost on a neurological level. You can redirect, your synapses can grow. You can teach yourself that it's a big musical world out there and it becomes part of you. But a lot of it's just osmosis.

31:16It's just listening, listening, listening. Something that really interests me about your career, which is there's so many ways that I can't relate to what you do. I admire it, but I can't relate to it. And one thing I can relate to is that I started as a writer and I would write for other people. I know I'd write things for other voices and I listened and watched a lot of comedy, but then I would write for someone, a known performer. And I did that for years before I sort of solidified my thing. And I think, I know early on you're writing for a lot of other people and that was your way in. And in some ways it's helpful because you can observe.

31:59You're clearly you know crazy intelligent you could observe other people how they're living what it's like to be a huge star and you can stand off of it for a little bit and participate but not get the full blast right away does that sound right kind of it's interesting it's like there is this misconception that i was writing for people first i actually made a record first and it was really really good and it was like critically acclaimed but it sold about honestly like 11 copies it was like really like no one bought it basically no one bought it no one really heard of it apart from like the five people who reviewed it love them you know but like and there was like a small fan base of people who are into it it was called true romance and um i was signed at that time to atlantic records and i'm pretty sure they would have dropped me like there and then after that album and at this point in time this is god what like 2012 i could i could be so wrong 2013 but this was like a point in in time where like record labels had so much more power over an artist in their career and whether they could even have a career i mean i think it's so different now but back then it was like especially being a woman making um pop music it was like if you didn't have a label like forget about it you know what i mean um but right right at the kind of end of that album campaign which was it wasn't even a campaign it just came out whatever like i wrote this song called i love it which um was sung by this swedish band called iconopop and that became a big a big song and i think that started my career of writing for others and if i hadn't had that then yeah it probably would have been you know accountant or whatever for me.

33:52Tax. Listen, and let me point out, there's still time. I know. And I know a guy who can help you. Great, great. And I know your team doesn't like what I'm taking you down. No, they love it. I mean, it's responsible. If you would take three years off, just hear me out, first law school, we'll do it later. Yeah, good, good. Well, that song too, I know you're singing on that song as well. I am, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, that experience of you getting your music across and working with another artist or through another artist, you have that period of time. You have this long arc of making very successful music.

34:37I mean, my daughter, who I told you is a massive fan, has been listening to for years, long before Brat and was a fan of yours. And then, so when the moment comes that Brat comes out, Brat's summer, the whole cultural phenomenon of that, you're probably maybe a little better prepared if you can be prepared for something like that. For sure. I mean, 100%. It's funny, like I guess as an artist, I had already sort of like dabbled in like commercial success through, yeah, the songs I'd written for other people and been a feature on and you know that had like literally taken me around the world and been able been allowed me to perform on different stages and things like that so I kind of had this like secondhand experience as you were saying of of like pop star success but it wasn't I was sort of like the one like photo bombing the photo rather than like in the main center frame but it was cool you know I was cool with that but um yeah and then I I sort of I I had my own song this song called boom clap which was in this film called fault in our stars and that was my sort of big like oh now she's gonna do it and I like it didn't really happen like I don't think I was ready then like I didn't really I didn't really like have my brain like fully dialed as like an artist brain in a way like I wasn't connecting all the pieces of the puzzle together in the in the way that I I do now when I think about my work and then after that I kind of like went into this other world of okay now I'm going to kind of really like make underground stuff and work with like my freaky friends and things like that and so when Brat happened and people were into that record I was actually kind of at this point where I was kind of like I'm just going to make this this record for me and I don't really care if anybody else likes it this is for me this is for my fans I felt like I was at a point in my my career where I could really like sustain like being able to do what i wanted even if the album wasn't like commercially successful like i was like totally at peace with it and i'd been so swinging on the pendulum back and forth between like what i wanted as a person as an artist prior to that but with this record i was like down the line like i am ready for it to flop and i am gonna stand by it i love it like this is for me and my fans who like give a fuck about what I'm doing yeah um and then obviously like it didn't really happen like that like a lot more people than my hardcore fan base were into the record and I think because I had had this prior journey before of like you know being in the background of the photos and like kind of like having this sort of like almost type moments I felt yeah like I'd kind of like seen so much.

37:26And I'd also experienced so much of what the industry is and how people come and go and how people treat you when you're on top versus when you're not. And I think not to sound jaded, it's not that I was jaded. I think I'm just quite realistic about fame and the industry and how serious or unseriously you need to take it and yeah I don't know I I feel I feel like really thankful that I got to have the experience that I had prior to rat because I think it I think I would have been a nightmare if I hadn't like I really honestly like really like I think it would have been like quite a dangerous like concoction of things all coming together it makes you feel feel sorry or have empathy for people, there are people that have that when they're 19, 20, 21.

38:21And oftentimes that can lead to drug addiction, mental illness, because I don't think people are meant to experience that. And it's not something biologically we're meant to be able to handle. I'm just curious because there's a little bit of false modesty about Brat. It wasn't just successful. Very few times can you say that an album is a cultural phenomenon. This really was, it was artistically a smash, but it took on a whole life. The color and font of the album became a thing. That's when you know you've done something interesting. You know, when, you know, you're whatever, you're passing by a coffee shop and the color and the font is telling you buy a mochaccino and you're like, okay, this isn't, doesn't even have anything to do with Brat.

39:11they're trying to use Brat to sell a mochaccino. This is weird. Was there a moment when you've had success before, you'd been playing before people for a long time, was there a moment that crystallized for you where you thought, oh my God, this is weird. This is big. Or was it all kind of fluid in a way? You're in a flow state. I kind of flow state. And also I'm very bad at doing the thing where you like look back and acknowledge success like I'm kind of like next thing let's go like I don't know like I can sit here and you know talk to you guys and say like actually yeah it was really cool like but in the moment I wasn't really thinking like that um and I think I find the whole sort of like social experiment of the whole thing really fascinating and I think the way that people interact with pop culture has always been like a huge inspiration to my work and so for me this was sort of like oh my god this was like the cherry on the cake of everything I had ever hoped for because it was so interesting to see how people fans haters brands presidential campaigns were interacting yes yes you know what i was doing and and i i found it very very yeah fascinating the way that um yeah like trend cycles happen and and yeah it's like that's always been such interesting fuel for for me and for my work like i'm i'm fascinated with how people engage with stuff like that.

40:55This has all served you really well because The Moment is your movie and it is a mockumentary, which I don't think quite describes it because it's a, yes, it's a pretend documentary. It can be very funny at times. But the thing, and Sona, you saw it as well, the thing that struck me as I watched it and I thought, this is true. This is very, very true. I'm speaking as someone who has nothing, no connection to that world and that experience, but you can tell when something is authentic. And this is a very smart, honest, funny, wry look at what you went through. And no, it is not factual, but it's true.

41:47And I was really blown away by, I mean, just when you watch the movie, you get a really good sense of what it's like to be you. And I know it's a version of you, but it felt to me like a very honest, cool, innovative document. And I loved it. I really did. And I don't know what your experience was, Sona. You know what? It reminded me of something you said, which is a lot of times people try to justify their paychecks. And it seemed like there was a lot of characters in here who were trying to justify their paychecks in a way. And it shows you what it really is for people who are such a big part of the zeitgeist, who have so many voices that are just coming at them.

42:32And I don't, I mean, it was so, it was really funny. Alexander Skarsgård. Oh my God. He's so amazing in it. He's so good. He's so incredible in this movie. But everybody is so funny. It's also very real. And it's such a great glimpse into what it's like to go through what you went through. We are big Rachel Sennett fans. And she was sitting in that chair weeks ago. And we were talking about her new show. And I just adore her. I love that she's playing this version of herself, which isn't all that flattering. And it's really funny. The Kylie Jenner. Oh, my God. like yes she kills but also I love that she comes in and encounters you at a weak moment and gives you this advice which is like comically she's telling you you gotta go for it you gotta do this but in a way you're thinking no don't listen to Kyle right and she looks ethereal like her lighting is insane and I look insane yeah I love the song about the fruit yeah but you know there were so many moments that are And yeah, Alexander Skarsgård's coming in and he's this very awkward, weird energy.

43:42But to your point, Sona, it's a really good point. The thing I like the most about the movie is something that happens all the time in any kind of entertainment endeavor, which is you are you. You are a real person living in the world. You have these experiences. You are following your own North Star creatively, making your stuff. Then you hit this motherlode of insane success. And you're right. Credit card companies, you know, Frappuccino companies, you know, sneaker companies, banks, presidential candidates, everybody moves in and then you have a team. And as we talked about earlier, a lot of your work is flow state work.

44:24But now people are saying, now, hold on a second. It's not good for Arby's restaurant if you you know say fuck in the song could you instead say i enjoy arby's and you're saying what yeah why would why would charlie xcx be saying i like arby's it would really help and that is depicted so well in this movie and it is funny but it's also it's not just a funny movie it also felt like very much a snapshot of where we are right now and i think people are always trying to depict a lot of movies about famous people and people going through fame i thought this was the truest depiction i've seen in memory yeah of what it's really like right because yeah it's like thank you for saying all of that by the way it's so kind of you and you really got the film which is great great news you thought I was an idiot and the car ride on the way over in your white Ford who is this idiot that's why I said nervous nervous and then they showed you a picture of my hair and you went what is that no I mean you know you never know you're so locked into the edit and you're like are we insane it feels clear to us and then you're like, you know, whatever.

45:48Anyways, no, you're smart. You're really so smart. So that's fake. You know what I always say? Charlie, when someone likes my work, I say, you're smart. I know, I know, yeah, yeah. And when someone has any problem with it, I say, you're an idiot! That's how I'm going to do press for this film. Man, who here's an idiot? You can show yourself out. It's going to be really good. You know, what's really nice too is you have proven yourself a million times over with your abilities in music and as a performer. You're very funny. Oh, thanks, gosh. No, no, but you really are. You're very funny. And the way you play things, because a lot of people think being funny is about saying a line in a funny way.

46:36And yeah, okay, that's true. But there's so much of it which is almost harder to do, which is reactions. and you're, so much of the movie is watching your face, watching what's happening to you. Right, right. And you are the avatar for the audience. So we're watching it thinking, Jesus, Skarsgård's a weird guy. Right, right, right. And other people are listening to him saying, well, he's a big deal and he's got a neck scarf. And yes, yeah, but you're taking it in and your face is, you play the comedic moments really well. Thank you. It was very funny. Thank you. And then someone turned me on to your movie reviews that you do.

47:18And I was reading your movie reviews, which you do on, what is it? Letterboxd. Yeah, Letterboxd. Okay, I'm cool. Letterboxd. What is it now, he said, putting on his glasses? It's Letterboxd. Young lady, go to your room. You're like a complete unknown. You said, there are a lot of songs in this. Moneyball. This isn't for British people. I love this one. Because as you know, I did a thing once, parodying, we did a film, parodying Mad Max Fury Road, and I was, his name's the Doof Warrior. He's the guy that hangs off the front of the truck in Mad Max Fury Road. You don't need to tell me, friend. Playing the, yeah, playing the guitar that shoots flame.

48:04Yeah. Your review for that fantastic movie, is the guitarist dead? Hope so. And I was just like, oh, okay. You're also a comedy writer, which isn't fair because I've worked at that my whole life. And then you step out of a rave and do it and do it really well. But I would think your sense of humor would, it's so important to everything. It's so important to music and to just staying sane. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, yeah, I think it's like I have to take everything with a pinch of salt. but then at the same time I'm also like an emotional wreck and it's kind of like balancing the two things and I think it's like I try and approach everything I do with kind of acknowledgement of both sides of my personality whether that be making music or doing press or even the film itself and I think that's an important part about the film and to go back to your point about it being what you feel is an accurate depiction of fame or success or whatever the phrasing was that you use it's like it's so ridiculous really isn't it like the world that we live in or encounter it's it's it's like amazing and exciting but it's also like pointless and ridiculous and then also so rewarding sometimes and sometimes I am the complete total villain you know and I think and I don't just mean like in the in the film I mean like actually like in my life in my world like I can be a fucking nightmare sometimes you know what I mean let's hear about that but it's you know it's like and I think for me it was really important that like Like I wasn't sort of taking, I wasn't like landing in this kind of like, you know, like morally like perfect place at the end of the film.

50:08Because that has not been my experience with working in the music industry. It hasn't been my experience with fame. It's like, it's complex. Like you don't always like land in this place where you're like, and now I've like tied up all the loose ends. I was a great person. Everybody loves me. and that's the end of the book. Like, no, it's like, you hurt people, you burn people, you, like, are really rude to your sweet manager on text one day and they're having probably the worst day ever, but they're professional so they don't, like, say anything back, you know, and you cancel a show, like, whatever it is.

50:46I don't know, but it's like, it's all so heightened and crazy. and I hope that we show that in the film and I hope that whilst I acknowledge I can be like that sometimes I also hope that I try and be like a nice person I hope that I wouldn't be the real person to ask about that well, we've talked to your people and you're a monster that's just the way it is and I'm talking about the people right outside so you can let them go but yeah, they have to go. I won't tolerate that on your behalf. No, what I love is that you, in your work, you've made it kind of a mission to tell girls and you're very, you have a massive influence with young women to say, I'm scruffy.

51:40I say dumb shit. Sometimes I fall down because what's modeled for them often is perfection, is fairy tale, is perfect lighting, is things that they can't possibly compete with, no one can compete with. And you have gone out of your way to, I think, be true to the you that's in a rave at four o 'clock in the morning. And it's, do you know what I mean? It's sweaty and it's chaotic and you improvise some stuff and this went well, but I just knocked that light over and smashed it and someone's going to have to pay for that, but it's not me. Whatever. I mean, I think you've been very good about, which I admire, and you're not doing it to be a good person.

52:28You're doing it because that's the way you see the world. Absolutely. You're not saying, oh, I'm going to do this good person thing. You're doing it because that's how you see things and that's how you see yourself. And you want these young women to see you that way so they can see themselves that way. Yeah, totally. I mean, and look, it's like I would hope that, as I said, I am a good person to those who meet me in, you know, in real life. But I didn't make I didn't decide I wanted to make art to be a role model. No, that's not where it comes from. It can never come from that. I should not be put in that category at all.

53:08Like, I don't want that responsibility. I don't think it is an artist's responsibility to be a role model. Like, I think opinions on that have kind of changed as, like, the relationship between fan and artist gets sort of closer and closer and closer. But I don't really subscribe to that belief personally. And, yeah, I think it's like if I can show people that fucking up sometimes is actually fine because we're all human. and we all probably do it even if we claim to not on the internet where we're being like our best most curated versions of ourselves like I think that's that's good because I would have loved to have seen that when I was younger you know but I also I'm probably gonna like mess up at that at some point too you know it's like that's just how it goes you know I don't want to give anything away but the the end of your movie I have to be careful here because I don't want to give it away but it's the end of your movie is you having to make a choice, a big choice about how you're going to present yourself on stage.

54:09And I'm not going to say what happens, but people are pressuring you to put on these, the kind of outfits we're used to seeing when someone does a world tour or a massive arena show, something. And you're putting on these dresses and things that really aren't you, but people are saying, no, you got to wear this because this is the next step. And I was thinking, was there any point where you were looking at any of those dresses thinking, This is actually, I really like this.

54:37I think maybe you were. Well, okay. Okay. There's a green one you wear that I must have. Oh gosh, yeah. Because I've got a killer ass. Oh my God. Well, come on, Sona, you've seen it. I haven't, I can't find it. I showed you pictures and I can't find it. I have no ass, famously. My ass was lost in a terrible accident years ago. you know i gotta say um no there wasn't but there was actually like the opposite experience where i i'm not sure if i'm this is something i can say or not but um yeah we can always take it out if you can't say it we'll find out um but there's there is this this moment actually where i'm i'm sort of on the way to making the decision at the end of the film where i'm kind of trying to decide like which what show am i doing and i'm in a rehearsal for this more traditional kind of show and um on the day that we shot it i'm i'm wearing this this outfit that is not something like i've ever worn before it is green i'm you know i know the outfit very well you know like green hair green eyeshadow and i'm up on wires um and when we were shooting it you know i was up on wires up and down for like most part of two days but before i went up my my creative director in real life came over to me and she was like are you okay and i was like uh yeah i think to her and she was like you you know you look really really lame right now and then and I was like really I was like really and she was like yeah and then I cried and then she cried and she was like you've never looked so uncool and I was like oh my god and then the director the director came over was like, you ready to shoot?

56:34I was like, I fucking hate you. That's great. And he was like, but this is the point, you know? But you know what's really funny? And I honestly don't think we're giving anything away because if I heard this, I'd be like, I have to see this movie and it doesn't give anything away because we won't tell you what happens. But it's a moment in the movie where you're getting some pressure to do the more traditional thing and we always see pop artists up on, you know, wires. It's just, they spend more time up in the air than on the ground. And, But what really made me, there's a visual that people have to see, which is they hoist you up and you're in the midair and you've got your outfit on and your boots and you're holding the microphone and you're just singing but not doing any.

57:14So they just took, you're doing the exact same thing you would be doing. You know, you're not moving. It's not Cirque du Soleil. It's if they took a tax lawyer and hoisted them in the air and told them, now do your work. And you were just there saying, well, if I were. And that really made me laugh. There's so much stuff like that in the film. You know what I will say from shooting that scene? I got to say, I have so much respect for artists who do go up on wires because it is like really hard. It's really hard to look good and poised and effortless. Like, it's so hard. Like, I really was like at points.

57:54It's all got cut from the film. I was like really trying to look good. and I kind of look like Sugar Plum Fairy. It's like really, really hard to look like serene and gorgeous. It's so impossible. So respect to Pink and whoever else who's doing all the flips and stuff. It's very hardcore. No, no. It's amazing that people can do it and sing and move. Yeah, impossible. We should do the podcast sometime when it's the three of us up on wire and then you can be our guest and we'll hoist you up and then we'll tell you you look lame and you can wear that green You'll tell us to fuck off. Yeah, yeah. It'll be a nice show.

58:32Charlie, I am delighted, absolutely delighted to meet you. And just, it's so funny because the thing that keeps inspiring me is people that are much younger than me, who are oftentimes in an art form that has, that maybe I don't understand, that they're doing something completely different. But I see the same things over and over again, which is really hardworking, true to themselves, disciplined, honest, and brave. And I think, and I look at all those qualities and time and time again in history, those people do really great things and I get inspired. And, you know, so I'm this geezer who's like, that's cool.

59:13I'm really glad you're out there. I'm really glad that you're doing your work and doing it so beautifully. Love the film. And please come back sometime because it's been an absolute joy talking to you. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time. Oh, good. Thank you. All right. And we'll talk about this tax thing. Yes, perfect. I think you're wasting your time in music. No, come on! She's good with numbers. I know she is.

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1:00:42FX is the Bear. The Emmy Award winning series returns for its final season. With no money, the threat of a sale, and a torrential storm in their way, the team bands together to achieve one last service. Can they finally earn that coveted Michelin star? FX is the Bear. The final season premieres June 25th on FX. All episodes streaming on Hulu.

1:01:11Okay, it's time for Review the Reviewers. This is where I go to Apple Podcasts. I pull out one of the just flowing sea of five-star reviews. Beautiful, beautiful. And we re-beat it. And then we review the review. And I'd like to review you right now. You said review. The audience won't know what I'm talking about. I will have cut that out. I don't think so. I think you're going to keep it in. I'll cut that out, but I'm going to keep this part in. Better comedy. I would keep it in. It's good. I'm going to cut all this out. Okay. All right. This is from Calabria86. Sibling rivalry, five stars. Love, love, love the podcast.

1:01:46Conan, you, Sona, and Matt have an infectious sibling rivalry. What do you think day-to-day life would have been like if you three were actually siblings and grew up together in the same house? Oh, wow. Well, I don't think we even have to suppose what this would be because we know. We know. I mean, pick any period of history, pick any situation anywhere in the world, the three of us living in a house day-to-day as siblings would be exactly what you think it is. Even as kids, would it be any worse or better? Yeah, I think it would be. Let's adjust the ages. So you're like two years older than me and I'm two years older than Sona.

1:02:21Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So there's just a two year gap between each of us. Am I the oldest? Yeah. Yeah. Still the oldest. Okay. So, well, I mean, my brother, Justin, could speak to this very well. I would be 24 seven bits. I would recruit him in bits. So I'd be recruiting both of you into my bits and making you participate against your will. And - It's a tough life to be born into. be it would be tough are we ourselves yes in this scenario yes i would pummel the two of you on a daily what did i do to you i just because it's like you're an easy target yes and i you know you're just gonna be like i'm you know painting my figurines or whatever you're doing yeah he has his figurines yeah he has yeah you know famous uh architects of the early 20th centuries you know and uh he's doing his little paintings of the figurines yeah he would so yeah I just, I'm just, you know, I'm going to like kick him and I'm going to beat you up.

1:03:19Cause I think that happened to me a lot and it made me a much tougher person. Like my brother was bigger and he, you know, he beat me up a lot. And so I would beat him up. I tried. I fought back. I think if I had weaker people around me, I would beat them up. So I think I would just, Danny was, Danny was just stronger than you. And I think he was a real nerd. He carried a briefcase around as a kid. I did not. And I know that's you. I mean, we just got to get the word out of that. I literally know that's you. No, no, no. I know this for a fact that she showed me. I did not carry a briefcase. You told me you had a briefcase when you were in college.

1:03:49You did have a briefcase. Or high school or something. You've told her on this podcast. I know, but I was probably bullshitting. I did not have a briefcase. My brother really wanted to work in finance for a really long time. And he had a briefcase. Her brother had, Danny had a briefcase. But you have said, right? He said on this podcast that he had a briefcase. I don't know. I can't remember. I don't know that I did have a briefcase. I forget every podcast we record. We have to, because I don't think that's true. And I would be the first to admit I had a briefcase. No. No, I think, you know what I had?

1:04:16Is it that you really wanted a briefcase? You've talked about a briefcase. No, no, what I said is that I liked, I really loved office supplies. I love the ideas of having like a stamp. I love the ideas of having one of those pressy things that makes like a little medallion on the paper. An embosser. An embosser. That's cool. I liked, no, no, I'm saying, I know this is terrible, but I really wanted an intercom where I could go like, hello, Louise, you know, put those, get those memos out. I love that. My dream when I was a little kid was to be a mid-level Soviet bureaucrat. So your brother had a briefcase.

1:04:51Yeah. You showed me a picture once when you're all little kids and he's standing there. I think he's wearing one of your dad's suits. It's too big. And he's holding a briefcase. Yeah, he does. He used to hold a briefcase. But then he got older and then he became a jock and he was a football player and he was like huge. He'd have to work out all the time. And so, you know, he would like we would fight over the remote or whatever and things like that. So I got really tough because of him. Yeah. And I feel like with you two as my siblings, you know, I just beat you up all the time. Let's keep in mind in this scenario, I'm two years older than you.

1:05:23I'm your older brother. You still think four years older than me. And I would still beat you up. You still beat me up. Yeah. Yeah. That's that. You know what? That scans. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I think you would beat me up. So I'm taking abuse from both sides. Yeah. You are. Oh, first of all, I don't. I think you die after a year. I'm being honest. I think I think I open I don't want to open my veins in a warm bathtub. I don't want to be living this life at all. No, no. You open your veins in a bathtub, but we find you, bind you, and then beat you. Because I'm incapacitated. Yeah, that's too good a way for you to go.

1:05:56Oh my God. Misery. But no, people are looking for you and then you're found in a bog. What's left of you? They find your glasses floating on top of the water. I knew you'd be dead. Yeah. We'd kill you so fast. No, no, you'd be gone. And then Sona and I, I think you would quickly realize this guy's going on to things. He's going to monetize these bits. And so you wouldn't want me dead because you'd know you can sponge off me the rest of your life as you do now. I wouldn't want either of you dead. You're my siblings, right? Yeah, you sure love us. Yeah, sure. But I want to, I'll fight you. That's how people show affection.

1:06:26Even if we don't kill Gourley, he dies of like the milk sickness. I know, he's very weak. He dies of something. I'm sorry, you are. Yeah, you'd get the rheumatism, you know? Oh, and you'd have braces. You'd have braces on your chest and your legs. I did have braces on my legs. I know I shouldn't laugh, but you know those braces you had? Make them out of a cruder material, and that's what you would have in this scenario. Wicker. Yeah. Okay. And then I do say after you're gone, we do feel badly, and we go visit your grave for a little while. Just a little bit. But then we move on, because I'm a big deal.

1:06:56I have faked my death just to get away from you guys, and I'm living happily, happily anywhere. Anywhere but here. Right now in this time that I'm not even joking, we're out of this role-playing scenario. it's like the it's like Tom Sawyer Huck Finn you're you're up in a tree you fake your death you're up in a tree listening to your own eulogy but then you fall out of the tree and you're killed I fall right into the grave we roll you right into the grave we've already done we just roll you in yeah we're like yeah that works I think what happens is I'm a ghost I've got I'm a CIA thing I had to fake my death I got multiple passports I'm doing my own thing I think we all know that's what happened I think you die you become a ghost but then you're sickly as a ghost which has never happened before.

1:07:40Other ghosts are like, that's not supposed to happen. And then you die as a ghost and become a more translucent ghost. And then you're still sick and you can't because the pathogen keeps getting spread. Oh my God. Yeah. And then you're just a ghost that's wheezing and coughing and blowing your nose as you are now all the time. Oh my God. Other ghosts are bullying you. I think it would be fun. Do you think our parents would like constantly, like at dinners and stuff, they'd just, would our parents leave us? For good, yes. Right, that's what I mean. I think the parents would move out. But then again, they'd have that hint that that Conan guy seems like he's monetizing this bit thing.

1:08:19We better just keep in touch just to get some of that sweet scratch. But when you were a kid, no one was like, he's going to monetize this. They were like - Luke knew. Luke knew. Did he? Oh, that's cool. No, he didn't. He had an abacus and he was figuring out. I think that what you do now while you can monetize it now back when you were a kid it's like concerning yeah right they're going to monetize this and they're thinking we need to institutionalize yes that's what I mean but some of our best artists have been institutionalized you know okay I just made that up I don't think that's true I know I don't know what that is either okay well I think we answered that question and that was review the reviewers Conan O 'Brien needs a friend with Conan O 'Brien, Sonam Avsessian, and Matt Gourley.

1:09:07Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Leow. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy.

1:09:22Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com slash Conan.

1:09:58And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend and wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

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