Dave Grohl, Krist Novoselic, and “In Utero” producer Steve Albini

29:55But the song, there's like a quiet bit of the song, and then it kicks in to full Monty. And we had done a soundcheck of the instruments before they did the take, but the full Monty was Kurt kicked on an overdrive pedal, which he hadn't used in the soundcheck. So when the first loud bit comes in, the guitars were pinning on the tape machine like he was about 60 B hotter than proper for the session. Right. So I immediately grabbed those channels and ratcheted them back. So the first beat of the loud part, the tape machine is slightly overdriving and those channels are in the red and it's, you know, bad engineering on my part.

30:36But, you know, by the second or the third beat, it was back to normal. But there is this moment, there's this like slightly like exploding. You were attentive. Yeah. You caught it. It's like, you know, or a couch guy just like telling your guy, hey, turn that down or he, you know. But in a conventional setting, just the fact that we went over on that first beat, just the fact that it was the first run through, just the fact that there was this potential scar would be enough to say, all right, well, let's do it again. You know, let's do it. That was nice for a first take. Let's try it again. But everybody heard it on playback.

31:09And I mentioned it. I said, you know, there's an overload here on this first beat because I wasn't prepared for the overdrive. And, you know, I got it back, got it in line. But and everybody heard on a playback was like, yeah, that's fine. And so that's on the record now, which is the sort of thing that, you know, when you're working in budget conditions and like sort of grubby studio sessions, that shit happens all the time and you just live with it. But for a band of their stature and of their resources to be able to say, you know, let's go ahead and use the first take just because it sounds fine.

31:39We're, you know, we're not that picky. I think I thought that was a remarkable display. Nevermind, I think it was two months maybe to make. And then Utero is... Nevermind was like 12 days or 14 days. Was it 14 days? I thought it was... It was really quick. Really? The recording of it, yeah. The recording of it, but then it's... Oh, and then the mix and stuff, yeah. The mixing and everything that. I mean, I think soup to nuts in utero is two and a half weeks, three weeks. If we had been a little bit more efficient, we could have been out the door in 12 days. But I think we were done in 14 for sure.

32:09You know, here's the thing. So because we were looking for that kind of performance and we were looking for that kind of recording, and most of the takes were maybe one or two takes or something, we were done with the drums and I think the basic tracks in what, three days? Three or four days. Three or four days. So that left me with a good week of sitting around doing fucking nothing in that house, like The Shining, watching those David Attenborough videotapes, things like that. Wait, why are you watching David Attenborough nature videos? Because there was nothing else to do. Yeah. This is before streaming.

32:44This is a different time. Oh, I would do the fireplace. I would start fires, remember? And I would do the fireplace. Very primordial activity is a man tending the fire. It was very shiny. It was very shining. Yeah, okay. You mentioned it so I can bring it up. You say tending fires. There was also some pyromania happening during the making of In Utero. And I don't know if this was something that you guys picked up from. These guys would play with lighter fluid. Yeah, let's talk about that. Let's get it out. I didn't do it. It was a cleaning solvent that was used in the studio to clean the tape heads and clean equipment and stuff.

33:21It's a very pure alcohol that burns off. So you can put it on your hand and set your hand on fire. Like, oh, look, I'm a human torch, blah, blah, blah. It's fine. Whatever. I'm sure he has some here. I've brought some in. We're going to all douse ourselves with it. And you get bored with setting regular things on fire, and then you start setting other people on fire and stuff. What kind of things are you setting on fire? Did you? My ass. We did that. I think you lit a cigar off of my ass while that was on fire. How long is your ass on fire for? What's the amount of time? Long enough for Chris to light a cigar, so I'm thinking that's at least 10 seconds.

34:02For someone to take a picture. Yeah, okay. Did you ever smell anything cooking? Just our hot tracks. No, I think that, yeah, I mean, we're out in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do. No, you light things on fire. We did. There were also prank phone calls. Because Steve had this realistic, like, remember Radio Shack? and it was a microphone, like you can stick on a phone, the microphone part of a phone. I might actually have it in that drawer over there. You still have it? I might have, yeah. You have some of these recordings? You can record off the phone, like on a cassette, right? Yeah. Okay.

34:39I've done some research and like Nixon, you should have gotten rid of these tapes. You guys pranked Gene Simmons. Yeah. I believe it won of Kiss fame. That's my favorite one. Who deserves pranking, by the way. favorite one he deserves a ranking I don't know if you've ever spoken to Gene Simmons yes I have I love the Melvins that was my favorite he says what I love the Melvins he does he does he sounds just like Jackie Mason yeah he was on my show once and all he did was sell merchandise and I kept trying to get him to tell interesting stories and he'd say we'll get to that but first and then he'd go in and he'd say the kiss coffin and he had a kiss coffin that he was selling absolutely true I pretended to be Kurt calling Gene Simmons.

35:25Gene Simmons had reached out to Kurt. Gene Simmons had called their management because there was a Kiss tribute album being put together and Nirvana, the biggest band in the world, were friends with the Melvins and the Melvins did a Kiss cover and he assumed that Nirvana would want to do a Kiss cover to be on it. Gene Simmons cannot fathom that anyone on earth is not a massive Kiss fan. Right. I'm going to say this, a healthy ego. And Gene, if you're listening, this is a good thing to have. When I was like 12 years old, to like maybe 14, I was huge in a kiss. Yeah. Yeah. And Gene was my favorite.

35:56Yeah. And Nirvana had recorded a kiss song once. Oh God, that was a disaster. What did you record? We were drunk. Do you love me? Uh-huh. We were drunk. Okay. Well, a few drinks are needed to record a kiss song sometimes, occasionally. So the word comes down that Gene Simmons is desperate to get Nirvana on this album and Kurt is like, I don't want to talk to fucking Gene Simmons and I said, I'll do it. So I called him, I called him, called him back and I pretended to be Kurt and I parried the whole thing away by saying that I wasn't making all the decisions because I had a reliability problem.

36:29So you're, are you talking directly to Gene? Yeah, as Kurt. And Gene thinks he's talking to Kurt. Yeah, and Kurt is sitting right next to me listening to me do an impression of him. You do a really good Kurt, by the way. Can we hear just a second of you talking to Gene Simmons? I get to see Kurt giggling. Do you know, do you know the wipers? That's a good one. I really love the wipers. Do you know the wipers? And then Gene Simmons comes back with, I don't know the wipers. I know the Melvins. I love the Melvins. I don't know the wipers. I love the Melvins. You call, I love this one. You call Evan Dando.

37:06No, even better. Evan Dando. There was someone in Evan Dando's tour party who was a friend of Nirvana and had the phone number for the studio and called from a hotel in Australia, a direct call from a hotel in Australia, probably the most expensive fucking phone call that you could make. Right. Right? Billed to the room. So Evan Dando's like footing the bill for the most expensive direct call on earth. And what we did was we somehow we convinced, that guy found Evan and convinced him that Madonna's personal assistant had found, had tracked him down. Yes. at the hotel in Australia and wanted to talk to him.

37:49That's it. That's the whole context. So Evan Nino thinks he's on hold waiting for Madonna. Right. And every few minutes I would get back on the phone and say, she asked me to place the call. She's still busy. Can you wait a little bit longer? And I had some absurd accent that I thought Madonna's assistant would have. Yes. And now Madonna has. And then he's just like, yeah, of course. Yeah, sure. I'll wait. Yeah, of course. And so literal silence for minutes on end on this. And then the sound of him exasperatedly telling everyone around him, I'm on hold for Madonna. And he's paying for the whole thing.

38:28Sure. Because the call actually started. It's a$700 ,000 prank phone call. Yeah. And then Australian dollars. Eddie Vedder, I think. Was there a prank called Eddie Vedder at some point? Yeah, and I don't remember why that one. That was me as well. I don't remember why we did that one. Because I don't, there was no, you guys weren't like fighting or feuding with him. No, no, no. I think so. I do remember getting him on the phone and telling him, I pretended to be Tony Visconti, record producer. I remember that. By the way, you're supposed to be the adult in the room. I remember that. You know, you're the guy that's supposed to be, you're in charge and you're lighting, you're lighting artists on fire and prank calling people.

39:06But not taking points. He's like, I'm producing David Bowie or something. I remember that. I can't remember what it was, but I can't remember the context, but I was like, yeah, I'm here with the Black Crows or something. I had some bullshit band that I claimed that I was with, and they were playing me a record, and I want to get you in the studio with a real band. Guys who can really play. That's pretty good. Did he get mad? Well, you have these. You've got to put these out at some point. I genuinely don't remember the banter, but I do remember. I thought he handled it pretty deftly. He did. I think he acquitted himself well, like talking on the phone to Tony Visconti, a record producer who wanted to fire his band.

39:46Do you? At one point you say, he goes, where are you? I'm in Manitoba. And then he said, do you know where that is? And there's this long pause. He goes, no.

40:02Oh, please put these out. You'll get the releases. I'll take care of the legal end of it. Just please release these. One of the nice things about the studio is it's residential. Like you're there the whole time. You can, you know, get up in the morning and have breakfast. There's nowhere to go, right? There's nowhere to go. You can take a long walk, I think, in the woods. Yeah, there's a creek there. I mean, we also, I don't know if we've really established that this was in February. Yeah. The dead of winter. In the dead of winter. Icicles like— In the middle of fucking nowhere. 20-foot icicles off the eaves of all the buildings.

40:33So even just a walk from the house to the studio, which is what, 100 yards? if that, you risk frostbite. So there's really no getting out and doing anything. You're all just kind of really contained in this beautiful house. It was great. But there's no little town to go to. I mean, there is. If you want to drive a few miles, you can get into the little town of Cannon Falls, but there's a bar and an antique shop and a gas station. That's it. I have really fond memories of making that record, to be honest. like i i really had fun yeah and um i think that we it sounded so good as we were doing it just within the room as we were playing and then we would listen to playback and i mean you all you have to imagine like here's this guy who's made these albums that sound we just always wanted to sound like nirvana making a steve albini record and it was a dream come true and as a drummer i I mean, you know, to get that Steve Albini drum sound, it's like, it was a joy.

41:35It was really fun. Can I just ask, without getting overly technical, but what is, how do you get that drum sound? Because I remember reading Hammer the Gods years and years and years ago, and they described how Jimmy Page had ideas about, I'm going to get a sound from John Bonham's drum by moving the, and I remember it was a revelation to me that by moving the microphone, you could get a different sound, because I don't know shit. Let me just cut you off and bum you out by saying that everything that has ever been written about studio techniques and studio lore and all of the fables of things that have happened in the studio on famous records, every single thing in the popular culture that people have heard about happening in the studio did not happen.

42:20It's all bullshit. There are a very, very, very small number of the studio stories like, oh, they smeared cocaine on the tape, you know. It's all bullshit. It's all just completely like fabulous stuff that people write because they want to ascribe some sort of magic to the process. There's no magic to it. Well, this is heartbreaking. What about Jimmy Page really being the guy who played all those cool leads for the Who in the early 60s? For example. Is that a lie? I mean, that's probably true. Jimmy Page, I heard from. Okay, so not everything's bullshit. Okay. Is there a Santa? But things like, you know, like, I think Dave can confirm that he set up a normal drum kit in a normal room, and I put normal microphones all around it, and then I didn't fuck with him.

43:12Right. Like, you know. It's about not getting in the way. And I suppose one thing that's kind of notable is the ambient sound in that room. That room is really nice. It was a really nice acoustic sound. And I'm fond of using the ambient sound in a room if the room is nice. The room we're sitting in right now is a lovely sounding room. And the sound of my voice echoing off the walls is much better than my actual voice, right? Yeah, I talked to you outside. It was awful. But he uses like vintage German microphones that are sweet and they have their own kind of sound. personality yeah it's funny that you mentioned jimmy page because i actually interviewed robert plant and jimmy page after they made the record with you so robert plant and jimmy page made a record with albini in what 1998 or something 99 or no no like it was wasn't that far after yours because it was like was it yeah like i was on everybody's shit list after i did your record and then i did a bush record and a the page and plant record and that was it so they called me to to interview them for this some magazine yeah and and i you were the connection they're like well you should interview these guys because you love led zeppelin and you've made a record with steve albini and so i was terrified i don't know if i'd ever met them before and never interviewed anyone before and so we sat down and uh tape and cameras rolling and stuff and i knew that at some point i was we were going to talk about you like i listened to the record we talked about the record and I asked why they chose you.

44:44And I remember Jimmy Page saying that he felt very connected to or familiar with your recordings because it was somehow similar to what he was trying to achieve when making Led Zeppelin records. Same sort of ambience and stuff like that. And we started talking about microphones, is talking about placement and equipment and shit like that. And then Robert Plant stops us and he goes, excuse me, it's getting a bit technical, isn't it? I'm like, fuck you, dude. I was actually dreading, I was dreading this anecdote because you never told me this anecdote. I never told you that. And my presumption was the reason that you never told me this anecdote was because they were mean to me and that you didn't want to hurt my feelings.

45:35No, no, no, no. no they loved you you're too sensitive people always say that about you um the um well let's get to it because you said you're on uh some people's shit list after in in utero you guys make this you have this experience you have this great experience you make this album it goes off to geffen and then you find out i think it was in kurt's words the grown-ups don't like it they don't they it's too raw they're worried about it it's not what they're worried it's not radio friendly um when did you start to hear about that i i remember hearing that the initial reaction was you're fucking joking you're kidding right like i think that was maybe one of the record company's first reactions um because i think you know when you make a record like Nevermind, of course, most of the people at the record companies want a follow-up that's going to either do the same thing.

46:33Butch Vig was supposed to mix Nevermind, and the recording went a little over, and Butch wanted some time to just rest his ears and just get away from it for a few days. And then we went to Devonshire, remember? And then we started mixing it, and it just wasn't, the label wasn't happy, And then we stopped mixing the record and we all went home and then we brought Andy Wallace in. And that was just one of those compromises and labels just like, you know, so then we worked with Andy Wallace mixed Nevermind. Yeah. And so then like, well, I like the record, but we're, we'd have this, I talked to Kurt about it.

47:17We'd have these conversations. And Dave, we're like, oh, well, you know, we are a big band and we do have a solvigation and we live in a fabulous houses. Right. And so maybe we just compromise like what is like the big what's going to be the radio song. See, Kurt wrote a song called Radio Friendly Unit Shifter, which is totally cynical. Right. And so like, all right. And then we knew we were big REM fans. they were recording Automatic for the People in Seattle. And that was Studio X at the time. That was the best studio in Seattle. So I would go down there and hang out, listen to them make this record and listen to their mixes at the end of the night or their recordings.

47:58And then that's how I got to know Scott Lit. And then some, I don't remember the details, but then it was like, we'll have Scott Lit can mix a song or two. And that's it. That's like the compromise. So to me, it feels a little bit like there's this, Again, this thing I was trying to get to earlier with this push-me-pull-you feel of we want to stay true to what we set out to do and we have this certain sound. But we are the number one band in the world and we are competitive and we want to get some radio play. But like for Heart Shaped Box, remember Steve, like that solo, like I didn't like the way that solo was and the way it was just, it was so, it was too intense.

48:39Really snarly. It was really snarly. And I'm like, well, you know, this song is a really pretty song and it's a sad song in some ways. And this, I think I use the term like, this sounds like you just threw this abortion on the floor. That's what I said. Like, all of a sudden there's this abortion on the floor. This is terrible. And then, you know, and then we would just talk. We would discuss it, you know, and then one thing led to another. And I don't know if, yeah, so. You got the different solo, I believe. As someone who wasn't in Nirvana and didn't have these internal band conversations with them, Like, my assessment of it was that they were managing their internal tensions and their, it's normal after you finish a record to have some doubts about it.

49:19And now, like, you know, like, you know, Wander, like, should we do another take of this? Should, you know, should we try this? I think Kurt added some backing vocals to a song that had otherwise, was otherwise finished. Like the public perception is that the record label insisted that they change things and Nirvana gave in on some stuff. Well, no, they were leaning on us and they're, you know, they're business people, right? And that wasn't my read on it at all. My read on it was that Nirvana had decided that they were going to resolve these things on their own. And the record label was carping to the rest of, you know, and the management and everybody, they were carping about it.

49:56But Nirvana was going to fucking handle it. It wasn't up to them. Right. And what I said then and what I've been saying ever since is the record that made it into the stores is the record that Nirvana wanted everyone to hear. Well, you know, the funny thing is that after In Utero, it became kind of a predictable move for other bands that were in similar situations. An unknown band goes into the studio, unknown underground sort of like rock band goes into the studio, gets a record deal, goes in the studio. They're put into the studio with a producer. They make an album that's produced and it does really well.

50:32And then they feel kind of weird about it because maybe it didn't sound the way they wanted it to sound. Maybe they got too popular, whatever it was. and then they go into make their second record they're like well now now this is what we really sound like so weezer did it with their album pinkerton which is a fucking amazing record first weezer record has a bunch of hits they become really popular then they go in to make their second record pinkerton and that album it's kind of like they're in utero yeah another band like bush you know bush is a band that gets really popular and has this produced record then they decide no wait fuck that now that we're big we get to do the thing that we really want to do so we're going to go in and make an album that's raw and the way it sounds so i don't know if it was something that was happening before the i'm sure it happened a million times before in utero but for people that came from the place that we came from being in the garage and being in the van and being in the clubs and stuff like that i think maybe if a band felt uncomfortable with their immediate rise to fame, that's the knee-jerk reaction, is to go in and make an album where they're like, no, no, no, wait, this is what we sound like.

51:36I have to say, I remember when I first heard the first track is Serve the Servants. And it is such a shot across the bow from the Nevermind experience, which I love Nevermind. And then I heard this, and even today, it feels a little bit like you're taking a Brillo pad and you're scrubbing the patina off of something. of the song is teenage angst has paid off well now I'm bored and old. Yeah. He's saying he goes now I'm bald and old then I shot him a dirty look. Really?

52:12He changed the lyric. What a guy. That's what friends are for. That was nice of him though to change it. Really nice to change it. Kurt was a really nice guy.

52:32When I listen to the record now, the range of the songs is so, for the difference between, say, Serve the Servants and an All Apologies or Heart-Shaped Box and, you know, Radio-Friendly Unit, you know, it's just, it's... How about Milk It? It's just downright menacing. And that's when you get the full-on Kurt Cobain, just the way he does the vocals, it's just terrifying. It's really spooky but then there's all that stuff that's so sweet too yeah yeah and even like even on like the songs that have like big dynamic like harsh bits when he was recording the vocals he always had that little toy that little broken acoustic guitar and he was strumming along so like a lot of the songs in the verses there'll be this like sort of funky sounding acoustic guitar which was kind of a comfort thing for him what was the guitar was it just a really a broken down string with the six strings on it and then it wouldn't stay in tune.

53:27So he tightened the cheap tuning pegs with like a screwdriver. And then you'd have to use pliers to like tune it. Like they were so tough. And I think it had like a crack in the top and stuff. It was like a real, yeah, but it was a total piece of junk. He was more comfortable singing if he was strumming along on this guitar. So you hear this acoustic guitar under the vocals in a lot of these songs and the verses. And it's not like he did a session where he did the acoustic guitar overdub. He was just strumming the acoustic guitar while he was singing as a comfort thing for himself. And it stayed on the record because it didn't sound bad.

54:01It sounded fine, right? And it was a casual and loose and informal thing, but it made him more comfortable. And so when I think of his aesthetic, I don't think of this harsh, gnarly, violent thing. And when you listen, like when you think about the way people described that record at the time, it was like, oh, it's this cathartic, menacing, terroristic kind of a thing. It could be. And you listen to it. Yeah, and there are big, angry, powerful moments on it. But it's like, a lot of it, I think, is really sweet. I remember when you came here in 2013, we did that alternate version of it. And we're playing through this stuff and we're listening to it.

54:38Like, we played the masters for the, like, the first thing we did was play the masters of the original session. And both of us were like, man, this sounds really great. Like, you're listening to it now with the 25 or 30 years of aesthetic that we've been exposed to since then what was the fucking big deal like well what were people so hot about it just sounds like a really good record well i mean to be fair i gotta point out the reviews when the album came out universally almost without exception were glowing i mean people really the the critics whatever that means to you guys at the time thought it was fabulous work.

55:14Bad reviews sting. I wouldn't know. Never a bump in the road. I hear an echo. Yes, they do. Those fabled electrical audio acoustics is what you're hearing. Yeah. No, but it was appreciated when it came out. And of course, one of the difficulties is that once Kurt died, everybody had to go back and parse through in utero and read lyrics like they're tea leaves leading you somewhere. And that feels like a recipe for incredible bullshit and misunderstanding. You can do it with Soundgarden lyrics too. Yeah, it's strange. When we were making the record, we did all of the instrumental tracks first. I don't know if Kurt sang any of the songs live.

56:03It was all just the three of us doing the instrumental tracks first, live in a room, without really having ever heard what Kurt was going to sing, or even how he was going to sing it. Like his melodies and patterns that most of these things, I just listened to them as instrumental. So it was always exciting, like a mystery, knowing like, oh, he's in there singing this track today and wondering what it was going to sound like when he was finished. One of Kurt's amazing abilities was not just that he was a great lyricist, but he had a really specific kind of signature melodic turn of phrase. So he always braided really two simple lines together, I think, in a way that was almost unpredictable.

56:49And he would go from maybe a gentle voice to a scream or maybe a minor key to a major, but he would do it in this way that was like really beautifully patterned, which I always thought was really cool and really simple. Ultimately, at most everything that he did, I thought was simple, but really smart. You know, anyway, so you would hear these things as they came back and you would hear for the first time his melodic idea, but also the lyric. And every time I would hear it for the first time, I'd think that's just odd. That's unusual. it's a it's a weird uh what a strange thing to say what does that mean but as the drummer of course i'm like shit did i slow down in the chorus now fuck my kick drums too but you know it's i still to this day if i listen to that record i'll find things or i'll feel things that i didn't necessarily feel 25 years ago not just in light of everything that had happened but of course that you know everything that did happen can you know kind of screw the lens a little bit or distort maybe what it felt like before and what it feels like now.

57:56I think it's a slippery slope. It's easy to look back at that stuff. There's a thing that people don't give Kurt credit for enough, which is that a lot of people think of his lyrical sensibility as just being a journal of his feelings, right? He was an artist and he was incorporating stuff from other things, other influences, bands and records that he admired, stuff that he'd read, like literature. There's a line in one of the songs, I think it's, most babies smell like butter. Is that, you know what I'm talking about? And I was like, what a weird observation. Did you like smell a baby? And like, he just had a kid, right?

58:37And I found out that that was a near direct quote from a book that he'd read about a guy who had this sort of sensory experience of the world that was abnormal and you know unless apprentice yeah so surprised is a track on the on in utero yeah and you know and then like he's he's from seattle and francis farmer is a tragic figure a local person to the seattle area like a lot of lore involved in there like there had been recently come to light a lot of the sort of manipulative stuff that had been done to her uh during her career to try to manage her career like you can see that there are parallels there where they're you know like he may have been feeling pressures from outside people trying to manage his artistic expression for their benefit and seeing a parallel between his life and francis farmer's life and then using her as a figure it's such a great title for a song yeah and that image of leaving a blanket of ash burn all the assholes and leave a blanket of ash on the ground but uh and also it felt like a little bit of a reaction to i read somewhere once i think that there was so many just one name songs that kurt was really interested in like going the other way so what francis farmer will have her revenge the ghost of francis will have her revenge on seattle just as this or at the radio friendly you know shipping unit what these were attempts to say i'm reacting to this cute moment we're in where everything is just one and he was aware of that as a trope and he was playing and he played with it he had there was a one song he wanted to call gallons of rubbing alcohol roll through the strip that we had that jam yeah we did that and he didn't want to be like like be dated or be put in like some kind of box or something so he also was just cryptic not allowed people to just invite people in to make their own interpretation of it then if you look at his other forms of expression like steve said like kurt was an artist and he was he was a great painter he was a sculptor he would do um comic books and he's more than happy to walk you through every panel of like a comic he did like right and and they were always just tragic figures the people and they were or just weird like writhing spirit apparition kind of everything was just kind of strange and dark and weird but and then still but very well done you know beautiful beautiful very you know it's done done very well so that was when he was expressing himself musically is that, you know, in utero, that's all over in utero.

1:01:12You know, I can go anywhere in the world, anywhere, and see someone walking down the street in a Nirvana t-shirt. And I was, I mean, we're here in Chicago. We were walking last night to go get a bite to eat. Saw someone in a Nirvana t-shirt. But I mean, I could be in, you know, I could be on Guam and just see someone randomly walk by in a Nirvana t-shirt. And what always strikes me about these moments is that there's this massive projection that happens, which is Nirvana, Legend, Kurt. It all gets prismed out and it gets so huge. And then I talk to you guys and he's your friend that you knew intimately.

1:01:50You guys were very close. And it's all become so much bigger. There are people out there that have opinions, strong opinions about who he was and what he meant, and what you guys meant. And it must just seem surreal to you at times. Like, no, no, no, that was our friend. There was three of us. We were in a van together. And it has now become this IMAX projection on the world. When my kids sometime will ask me, let's say my daughter Harper and I were driving in the car not long ago, six months ago, and a Nirvana song came on. And we don't listen to Nirvana at home. This Nirvana song comes on, and she's singing along to the words.

1:02:32And I'm thinking, wow, that's weird. I've never heard her listen to a Nirvana song. How does she know a Nirvana song? And she says, Dad, how old were you when you made this song? I said, God, I think I was like 22, maybe. She goes, oh, how old was Kurt? I said, I guess he was maybe like 23, 24. She goes, what was he like? And I'd say, well, he was really nice. He was kind of shy, sometimes quiet, but he was cool. But she says, well, he was shy. was he shy around people that he knew or people that he didn't know and i said well kind of a little bit of both and she said god that's so strange that someone who feels shy like that that could write these songs and sing them for everyone to hear and then stand on stage in front of a hundred thousand people and play them i thought that was so cool because i think she wasn't looking so much at that other thing.

1:03:27She was looking at the person, right? And, you know, after Nirvana was over, that curtain got sort of like, sort of pulled away. So it changed the way I thought about every other mythological rock star that I'd ever followed in my entire life. And it really made me realize, oh shit, they were an actual human being. We talked like they're playing cards or something like that but they're just people yeah can somebody help me with this pronunciation of this term apotheosis yeah sounds right that's it okay yeah is that that soap that you get it that you need soap to treat it a special medicated soap sounds like the name of a boutique that i cannot afford a single thing sky rizzy for that i don't know if that's and that's what it is so like basically the apotheosis what's this whole idea that something uh well Okay, so I had just, this is just my own personal connection to a very public thing for you guys, but there was some, back when they were a big deal MTV awards kind of situation.

1:04:32And because I was brand new on the scene, you know, here's this new guy, we're sending him to the, he's going to be sitting in like the second or third row. And you guys got up and spoke because it was very shortly after Kurt had died. And the two of you went up on stage and spoke. And I remember just having this powerful feeling of they lost their friend. You could just feel how raw and personal it all was in that moment. People that are in bands are the fraternity that you feel like the companionship of the people that you're intimate, creative with day-to-day basis is a really incredibly strong bond.

1:05:08And it's also, you know those people intimately. We have this box set we did and John Silva did a really good job with that. He's a music fan, first and foremost. I'm not going to be selling my Nirvana coffin or whatever, but it has live performances. Because this thing is packed. It's packed with posters and backstage passes. John Silva and Silva Artist Management, they put it all together. And tons of other tracks that didn't make it onto In Utero. There's a bunch of live stuff on here. See, I'm wondering if it has the demos that we did in Brazil. but there's like live in rome live in los angeles live in seattle and they're board tapes and then we use technology to kind of clean to clean them up you can make a multi-track now from a stereo did you guys have favorite live performances that just come to mind at this point pat smear had joined the band yeah right that was a huge like from the release of the album he was touring with Yeah, it was big because we had made the album.

1:06:13And Kurt had talked about, you know, at one point there was a second guitarist in Nirvana before I joined the band. And he wanted to get another guitarist at this point. He goes down to Los Angeles. He comes back. He says, I found our second guitar player. And we said, really, who's that? He said, Pat Smear from The Germs. And if anybody knows The Germs, they were very early on the punk rock band in Los Angeles. Perhaps the most dangerous. and um so i just thought like oh my god i can't believe that fucking guy's still alive because he was in the germs and also and a side a sad side note is darby crash yeah he committed suicide yeah the singer of the germs anyway so pat comes up and i'm just expecting this big disgusting fat junkie and he's the most wonderful energetic brilliant beautiful well put together he he He really breathed this whole new life into the band.

1:07:05The great thing, too, is there's a great anecdote that defines his contribution to the band in addition to being a great musician. And there was a story of you guys playing a show. And then there's not a nice review about the show. And it says, you know, the show is off. And someone's reading the review. Oh, I remember that. People are getting pissed. The opening night of the tour, the Newtero tour, was at the Arizona State Fair. And it's the first night. and so you know it takes a couple shows to get rolling and so it was edna gunderson from usa today she's the least a name that will live in infamy and she gave us a mediocre review like why didn't she go like three or four shows into the tour then she would have caught us and that's what you get on this um box set you get the band is at full but what happens is this This review comes out, and the story I heard is that the review comes out, and everyone on the bus is like, God damn it, why did USA Today write this about us?

1:08:05And Pat said, oh, come on, we sucked. And everybody laughed. Meaning just sort of taking the piss out of the whole thing. Come on, we were off. Well, you know. Well, also I love that who do you call to take over the technical side of things in a guitar band? The fucking guy from The Jorms. Yeah, yeah. I can't think of a band that is a closer parallel to the kind of like uneasy feeling that you got from the weirdest moments of Nirvana than the Germs. Like their whole thing had that same sort of like familiar but slightly sleazy and slightly uncomfortable quality. And it was a sonic thing. Like the sound of Pat Smear's guitar, it sounded a little sour and a little, you know, a little creepy.

1:08:48and it seemed like a, like it was a natural, as soon as I heard about it, I thought, oh yeah, that's a natural. It was great. So when we came out to do these shows, I mean, there were bigger shows and I mean, really, it was our first arena tour, you know, when... Did you like, did you like playing the arenas? It felt strange at first, I think. I mean, towards the end of 1991, we did an arena tour opening up for the Red Hot Chili Peppers and, you know, I was always afraid that what we did, that energy wouldn't translate in a bigger room. Yep. You know, because we were used to playing places this big and put us in the corner there and the place explodes and it's amazing to try to, you know, move that to a bigger room and be hard.

1:09:31So, it felt weird. All of a sudden there was like caterers. Yeah, we had a caterer on tour. And then the catering. Kurt fired them because they made the wrong mac and cheese. Well, no, because they did it because they had really good food. I thought it was really good. And Kurt liked corn dogs and macaroni and cheese. And our bologna sandwiches. So they were making actual macaroni with actual cheese. And he had never had that before. And that was the last fucking straw. You know, so it was just like, you know, it was one of those things like, ah. And well, we did a show. We had a show. It was a 90-minute show.

1:10:06We had a stage set up. We would do our acoustic breakdown part. Yeah, it was like pro shit. We did the same show every night. It was like$20 tickets. tickets tickets were like 20 bucks because you could sell cds and make money and then we had like working family prices but then also the best part was we're like okay we're in arena band now cool the opening band is going to be the boredoms from japan or the opening band is going to be fucking the butthole surfers so you've got all these kids that like just bought the nirvana t-shirt and they come to the rock show to see their favorite band and they've got like bobcat goldthwaite is the emcee and then fucking the butthole surfers and the kids are like what the fuck is going on how did bobcat goldthwaite become the opener you guys were real fans we were fans kurt had meet bob that record and then we just so happened to be it was like in 1990 and i we were in like michigan or wisconsin at a college radio station and bobcat was there and he's like hey we know he didn't know who we were we nobody knew who we were like hey we you're you're on police academy like and he he tells us where he goes yeah i met them and i said good luck with your little band as we said goodbye and then we just yeah i don't know we just got he was sort of on our side like as as a comedian sure he was like kind of a cynical subversive fucking weirdo yeah yeah and so we liked him he got a bad review rex reed gave him a bad review and he goes he was my My favorite judge on the gong show.

1:11:44Well, how do we sum this up? It's been 30 years and it must feel good that this work stands the test of time. It does feel good. We'll come back in the 50-year anniversary and see what kind of what we have to offer. Yeah. And it's great that people are interested and that we have the opportunity to do this and to like add. There's vinyl and there's live shows, so you won't be tracked or have a cookie put on your consciousness. And you can just put the tone arm down on a piece of vinyl and listen to Nirvana Live in Rome or Los Angeles or Seattle. And it can capture your imagination. You're invited to come inside that world and experience that show.

1:12:28So I'm just happy to have the opportunity. And you said that you don't play Nirvana at home? No. Is this going to be an exception, do you think? No. I mean, the cool thing about being a musician for a long time, making a bunch of records, is that you eventually start measuring your life not in increments of time or whatever. It's like albums that you've made. So if you ask me about a particular record, a Scream record or a Foo Fighters record or whatever, I'll immediately know what year it was made. And I remember almost everything about where I was and who I was at that time. so when i think like 30 years ago what the fucking what's that even mean 30 years but if you say 1993 everything comes back and then when you listen to it to me it's almost like these um they're sort of like sonic snapshots like in a photo album or something so when i when i hear the music it brings back a lot of personal vivid memories of just stupid shit like i remember that jacket that i had or that stupid hat i bought in north carolina or the sock full of mashed potatoes that fucking steve put in my suitcase and snuck a sock full of i felt bad when i got ripped off i know i was so sad but things like that but then also um you know again you know i refer to my children a lot because they're uh discovering music in the same way that well differently than we did then but sort of emotionally in the same way that we did at their age and you know to see their reaction to this music now is really fucking cool actually we did this one we did this uh this uh charity benefit thing once that uh art of elysium thing that we did oh a long time ago and uh we got asked to play this thing in los angeles but we couldn't make it and then the person who was putting on the show said well why don't you just play acoustic i'm like fuck man i don't want to do that so i thought you know what maybe i'll call chris and pat and see if maybe joan jet will come up and we could do some nirvana songs or maybe someone else is there whatever so um we were thinking about people to sing and then i don't know who brought it up but some maybe it was you that said does violet want to sing a song or maybe it was pat my daughter violet and um i saw this did you see it i think there was yeah there was footage of it yeah and so i i was like well i'll ask her and i said hey vi um she's an incredible singer i'm like and she really likes nirvana at the time i think she was maybe 14 probably 14 14 year old girl i said you want to sing a nirvana song she's like yeah absolutely and i said which one of all of them not just this record of all of them and she picks heart shape box and my first reaction was what have i done to my kid to fuck them up so bad that this is the this is the song they want to sing but um but seriously i was i was very uh proud yeah and what i realized is kids these days there's like this window in between the ages of like maybe 10 and 13 or 11 and 14 or something like that where almost every kid goes through a Nirvana phase.

1:15:37And it's for a reason. And I think it has less to do with the sound. I think it has more to do with what it means. Because I think it means the same thing today to those kids as it did when we released it. So that, to me, is the coolest thing. And selling a lot of t-shirts. Yeah. Gentlemen, it has been an honor. Seriously. You're a great artist, and you also have a lot of integrity and you've stood the test of time. And so getting to hang out with people like you is a big deal to me. And I really appreciate it. So Steve, Chris, Dave, thank you very much for doing this. And I was really looking forward to this one and you did not disappoint.

1:16:18Thanks, man. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be your friend. Well, I got you there. Yeah. It took a while. Less than the anxiety considerably. I feel jazzy. Still? Effervescent. You look effervescent. Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend, with Conan O 'Brien, Sona Mufsesian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Nick D 'Leal, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.

1:16:59Engineering by Eduardo Perez. Additional production support by Mars Melnick Talent booking by Paula Davis Gina Batista and Britt Kahn You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message It too could be featured on a future episode And if you haven't already please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded

1:17:31And he has broken with refuses to go. The