David Byrne

25:01Right. Who took my toothbrush? Yeah, yeah. Do you have to chew like that? Yeah.

25:09I think it was Lauren Michaels said to me once, he was describing, I don't know if it was Rowan and Martin or some famous comedy team, but he said, when you're down and out and you're working your way up in the clubs, you look at your part and you think, thank God he's up here on stage with me at this dive. But then when you hit it the huge big time, you look over at that guy and you go, what the hell is he doing here?

25:35it's just human nature but also things run their course yes run their course did you ever work with a team like that no i mean i worked i was i've always been very collaborative uh in in my i started out as a writer and i was a comedy writer for a long time and that was very collaborative i enjoyed that but when i started performing i i found that oh i'm kind of a control freak and it's easier when not everything is a collaboration. So it's the yin yang. You want it to be the way you have it in your head. You want to hear it the way you hear it in your head, whether it's comedy or music. It's a struggle.

26:18The collaborations are great, but then there's those moments when you think, can I just tell everybody exactly what to do? And then, of course, you're Mussolini. Yes. Who did not make it in comedy, by the way. I remember being like that at various points, being a control freak and saying, it has to be this way, it has to be this way, and we're going to do it again, we're going to do it again. And years go by, and I realized, you know, whatever the phrase is, you catch more flies, you get more of something with sugar or whatever it might be. Flies go into sugar and die. Wait, honey can cover sugar.

26:54No. I'm not making this any better. I know what you're saying. It's supposed to be like - You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Something like that. So I knew this - Now I'm a control freak. We've got to get this right. Yes. So there's a fly. Okay, I'm sorry. I would like it if we just completely broke down over this, got into a fight, and then you left. It was over this saying - I'm going to go look this up. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to the New York Public Library. Why don't you use your phone? I want to go to the library. I don't trust the internet. it's stealing my soul this is just apropos of nothing but just because you mentioned that are you kind of a lot are you comfortable with technology are you comfortable with internet uh phone or i use it i mean i use the internet right uh you don't have a mobile phone of course but uh i'm not on social media right i'm kind of suspicious of yeah what what that does to people there's other things that i'm kind of suspicious about the big tech companies know so much about us and therefore are kind of manipulating us in various kinds of ways it sounds i mean the way i say it it sounds like science fiction but it's more like manipulating you to stay on their platform and buy stuff yeah in subtle in subtle ways yeah do you ever use a typewriter yes i have but i don't use it anymore i i i know you we all did use a typewriter i still use a typewriter because i love the look of them the same way i love the look of a guitar i also love the look of certain kinds of typewriters and I love having them around.

28:26And there is a little niche cult out there of people like me that still type people letters and put them in the mail. I'm sure people love getting a letter. They love getting a typed letter, even if it's quite abusive.

28:41I've written the creepiest, most abusive letters. People are like, you type this? This is incredible. But I don't know, you seem like you would maybe fall into that pocket of sometimes, you know, you want to ride a bike you want to keep it simple yeah to some extent to some extent i feel like yeah enjoy your life and you don't have to you have to obsess over all this stuff so i want to talk to you about here lies love which is this uh project that you've been working on for quite a while and and and now it's going to get its premiere on broadway finally on july 20th this is what fascinates me is the inspiration for this or the starting point was your interest in Imelda Marcos.

29:22Exactly. Now tell us how, because that is not, again, I have learned to expect the unexpected from David Byrne. But when I say like, it's going to be a musical and it revolves around Imelda Marcos, I think, I can't say after that, oh, that old idea again. Another musical about Imelda Marcos, please. Oh, yes. All those songs about shoes. So where did this come from? How did this germinate? It goes back before that. Not very often, but a few times I went to discos when there was a live act playing. And a live act playing in a disco meant they would come in with a little tape with their backing tracks, with their music on the tape, put it in.

30:05So it was like a karaoke thing. It'd be like Grace Jones or Gloria Gaynor or Frieda Paine or different people who had hits in those days. They would stand on a little platform. The tape would play and they'd dance around and sing live. But the music was pre-recorded. And I thought, oh, that's pretty nice. It's a really short set. It's like 15 minutes because they don't only have maybe two hits. And then I'd heard the DJs in those kind of places saying there's an arc to the evening. where we take the audience on a journey, dancing, and maybe they're doing other things, but it's an arc. And I thought, but what if the arc was a story?

30:42What if you could tell a story using those songs that they're singing? I just filed that away. And then when I read that Imelda Marcos, the former first lady of the Philippines, loved going to discos. She had a mirror ball installed in her New York townhouse. She turned the roof of the palace in Manila into like a dance club. I thought, oh, here's a kind of somewhat eccentric real life person who lives in that world. Yeah. Maybe this is the person whose story could be told that way. So I started doing research. So what did you find out about, I mean, for the longest time she was held up as this, if you don't know much about people, you just know the caricature about them.

31:26but as you did you become more sympathetic at all to Imelda Marcos the more you learned about her or no oh yeah I think uh anybody who's writing about another person or some situation like that you have to try and have empathize and understand what drove them to do what they did uh if you don't if you just say oh she's a bad bad bad bad person then story's over right there right so you have to try and understand and for her yes there was a story she started all it was there's a little bit of rags to riches story poor girl from the poor side of a very influential family so she watched her relatives her richer relatives and she would have to serve them tea and things like that and she thought why are they why them why them why not me and so she became kind of ambitious and kind of clawed her way up there she was very beautiful won some beauty contests married a young senator got it got in there and yeah lots and lots of things happened after that to make long story short uh she did go to a lot of discos and in the end she and her husband her husband declared martial law they put the country under martial law which meant the press is muzzled any dissidents can just be rounded up bad things happened and eventually the populace revolted but in a very peaceful way.

32:52They held an election, but it was kind of a fake election. And like someone else we know, they claimed they won when they hadn't. Right. And people just turned out on the streets, everywhere, and just said, no, no, no, no, no. Enough. Enough, we're not having this. And that might've been the end of it. They might've just said, who were you to say? The generals started defecting. And the cardinal in the Philippines, whose name is Cardinal Sin, he defected that's almost you can't write that stuff yes i thought what i'm cardinal sin yeah but oh no i can't say that people will think oh you made that shit up right uh yeah so then eventually yeah after four days nobody got hurt uh they gave up and the u.s marines came in and airlifted them out so it has a happy ending but i love the marines came in there is a happy ending well yeah that's a happy ending for the people there however now there's other stories the marines airlifted her out and stopped uh they said we're going to you can be go to hawaii and which they did but she said we need to stop at the px in guam she dropped sixty thousand at the PX on the way out.

34:13I would think, what is at the PX at Guam that's so great? I know. It's a big base, but yeah. But you get$60 ,000 worth of string cheese? I wonder. Beef jerky? Yes. Spam. Yeah. So what's interesting to me is, so you have this story. Does the music then come out of the story? Is that what it suggests? Or how does that work? How does this symbiotic relationship between the story and the music happen creatively? Wow. And I demand you to teach it to me so I can do it. Since I was now saying, okay, this story is going to be set in a disco. And I wanted the audience to be like I would be in a disco, hearing the performers up on little platforms on the side.

34:55So we have to have that kind of energy a lot of the time, telling the story. So, yeah, I went to Fatboy Slim, the musical artist, and said, you have to help me do this. This is a little bit outside of my wheelhouse. We want it to really sound like dance music. Yeah. It worked. And to me, it felt like the kind of buoyant energy you get from dance music, I thought, that must be what it feels like to be a powerful person like this. To be the president's wife and you can kind of do whatever you want. You know, I had a friend that saw a previous showing of it and called me and was completely blown away.

35:36just said this was the greatest experience, and it was immersive, and it was fantastic, and the music was great. And so I'm really looking forward to it. And I don't want to pay for a ticket. That's the other reason I had you on. Well, yeah, people can arrange. We can arrange that. No, no, no. I don't think you understand.

35:59I want you to pay me to, no.

36:03Oh, yeah. I like to show up late and I'd like the show to stop when I show up and I'd like a light to hit me as I make my way in. These are things that I demand when I go places, which is why I'm never invited anywhere. I'm glad your friend liked it. It is a lot of fun. I made it sound like it's a history lesson, but the history comes through with all the dancing and music and everything. With your creative process, do you find that you do the best work, say, in the morning, at night, or is there no rhyme or reason to your creative engine? I found that I've fallen into a routine where the morning I get up and try and empty my inbox of emails.

36:46Never happens. But then after lunch, I can start to work on whatever I really want to work on. And it's kind of like if there's more emails coming in, forget it. Yeah. I mean, they've done studies that say that there's so much creativity. It's really not that much. In a given day, someone might have two hours of real creativity. I agree. And then after that, everything is busy work. And I get fascinated by this stuff. So Hemingway used to say, he'd get up very early in the morning and he said, if I get right to it, I have about, I think he said two, maybe three good hours. and he said then i know the tank is done or almost done he said but i always leave i always stop knowing what the next thing is going to be to make the beginning of the next day easier oh i see which i thought was really like a kind of a cool trick yeah he doesn't he didn't go to empty he went to there's still a little bit left and i'm going to stop here and then the rest of the day was swimming fishing unfortunately drinking way too much but he would do whatever it is that he were boxing you know uh uh some some cubist um painter but but then the next day he could say okay i know where i have about 15 minutes where i know what i'm doing and that will get me give me the momentum to get going again that makes perfect sense i think i probably do that too and have some kind of administration work in the creative thing like let's do some line editing let's uh And maybe just try and figure out some rhymes in a song that didn't quite work.

38:29Like go back over it and see if you can fix it a little bit. But not the heavy lifting of coming up with something on a blank page. You have said before that you think you might be somewhat on the spectrum. Is that something that you still believe? Not so much. I still have moments when I interpret things that people say very, very literally. Or when somebody says something and I take it literally and they say, wait, you couldn't tell that I didn't actually mean that? Right. And I go, no, I heard what you said. Right, right. That can cause problems. Well, it can cause problems now because I don't think – I have this theory that sarcasm didn't really exist until about 1925.

39:14and that people used to say exactly what they meant and then they would fight duels over it. And now things have evolved to the point where 98 % of what people say to each other is wise-assery and, you know what I mean? And, you know, not, you know, it's sarcastic. It's meant to be, you know, oh, please, what I meant was the opposite. Exactly. And that's - I had trouble following that. Less so now. But yes, as I got older, I felt more socially comfortable. But yeah, there was a time where I felt fairly socially awkward, but I did not feel unhappy. I just felt like, well, this is the way I am. Yeah.

40:01In New York, when you're moving through the world and you're on your bike, you are quite recognizable and you're a big deal rock star. How does that work for you? You are. You're an iconic artist, and I don't know, how comfortable are you with, David, can I grab a selfie? Sometimes that's okay, but often, you know, there's an advantage. If I'm on the bike, like today, a man said, hi, hi, David, I'm from Warner Brothers. I didn't know him. Seemed like a very nice man, but I thought, I'm not really ready to have a conversation right now. The red light changed, and I was gone. You just take off on the bike.

40:37Not in a rude way. I said, good. Good day to you, sir. Good day to you. Have a nice day. I've noticed this is a podcast, so I just want people to know that David's been sitting on a bike the entire time. And at any moment, if the conversation goes away that he's not pleased, he's riding out. Yes, if the light changes. Yeah, why is there a traffic light in here? I also wanted to mention, we have a mutual friend in John Mulaney. Oh, yeah. Who I adore. I just adore. I think he's a brilliant, brilliant mind and just thrilled to know him. How did you and John Mulaney come to be friendly? Through the director of Here Lies Love, Alex Timbers.

41:22He's a theater director. And he directed a thing that John Mulaney and Nick Holt did called Oh Hello. Oh, yeah. I've seen that show. I love that show. Yeah. He directed that and said, David, they like to sometimes invite someone up on stage. Will you let them do that? I said, oh, sure. So I did. I was one of the kind of ringers in the audience that they bring up and you become part of one of the. Was it the tuna sandwich? Yeah, the tuna sandwich thing. And they do that. And of course, they're all in like wigs and prosthetics and all kinds of stuff. So I have to say that I got a little confused.

42:09I thought, which one's John? Which one's Nick? Which is John? No, it was a surreal moment of my life too, which is a really, I mean, it's a very, it was a really funny show. Those are both brilliant guys. And then the same thing, they heard I was in town. They said, would you come and be the stooge that sits in the audience and gets called up? so I got called up and it all they're both were dressed as these old men they're obsessed with Steely Dan and live on the Upper West Side and it is the most specific kind of comedy and then of course it all there's this bit that they want you to participate in where they lure you into mentioning this tuna sandwich and wouldn't you like some of this tuna sandwich and I it is one of those moments in my life anyway and there have been many I'm sure there have been many in yours where I leave my body and I observe what's happening.

43:04And there's part of me that thinks, you have a very odd life at this moment, Conan. You're up on stage. It's Mulaney, Kroll. They keep referencing Steely Dan. And they're trying you to mention tuna fish sandwich. And we're at a Broadway theater. I don't understand what's happened to my life. So it sounds like you had this similar experience. I had a very similar experience, yes. This giant tuna sandwich comes down. appears and really the whole stage smells like tuna fish it really does i smelled like tuna fish for days afterwards they wouldn't let me fly commercially for a while uh i like that you're good friends with john because i'm obsessed with whatever this line is between comedy and music i know that there's some kind of visceral connection between the two i've always been in comedy but fascinated with music and tried to play music and been frustrated and always thought the grass was always greener in uh the the last kind of show i did i wasn't exactly stand-up but there were quite a number of parts on in the show where i would just talk directly to the audience right kind of like a comedian would do and sometimes i got laughs and so i got a little little tiny taste of that i loved it but it was terrifying yeah as a musician you have this whole group of musicians and you have the song and everything that just kind of structure it's a structure Once you get on that roller coaster structure or whatever you want to call it, boom, you're supported.

44:34Right. You just ride it. Right. Whereas if you're just standing there and you're trying to make people laugh or pay attention at least, if they don't, it's like, whoa, we're in trouble now. Yeah. Yeah. I'm always, I mean, I do think there is a connection in that I had to do something today and got up in front of this crowd and I could tell it was tight. And I always think what time has taught me is be patient and find the rhythm of the room. Let's find the rhythm of what's happening in this room. And then I can work with that. And I imagine that it's somewhat similar in music where you need to, where are these people now that we're playing for and how do we connect with them?

45:17so when you find the rhythm of the room in that way do you then go oh i have to completely change what i was going to do i'm going to i'm going to jump and do this other thing well i a big i love mistakes it's just joyous i mean i i grew up watching johnny carson tell a joke that would bomb on the tonight show and i would see his eyes kind of glim there's gleam in his eye and then he would have i mean there's a there's one segment i really loved where he told a few jokes in a row that didn't work out well and then he reached up and there was a microphone hanging above his head that was catching he wasn't loved he was was done with the boom and he grabbed the boom and pulled down and said um is this thing on is this working and then said uh walmart clean up in aisle five into the microphone and he was basically just calling out the fact that his routine was not going at all well that night and having fun with it.

46:17And I thought that's the monologue I remember. And he probably got a huge laugh. Huge. I have a question. I have a friend who often tells me, David, don't laugh at your own jokes. And I've tried to stick to that, but sometimes I can't help it. It'll tickle me and I'll just start giggling at my own jokes. Now, sometimes I find like if I'm in front of an audience, they love that because it's whatever breaks the fourth wall or whatever and they go they're in on it yeah other times it's like he's just having fun by himself he's we're not included here i'm i disagree with your friend violently well okay if he were here i would fight this person like i don't sometimes if i'm laughing at my own joke i'm the only one laughing yes but at least there's someone there enjoying it and i so i uh and and people around me will say oh conan you're cracking yourself up there but i'll say yes i am and i'm i'm only on this earth for a little time and i'm delighted with myself at this moment and i i don't care that none of you are um i want to make sure that i let you go on time because uh i know you've got you are an important man with places to be um but this has been a real uh joy it's been a joy and an honor i want to make sure i get the word out that uh here lies love premieres july 20th we're in previews before that right where we're that means we're still getting some bugs out of it but it's it's the full show and on the night in which I come I will show up late the show will stop a spotlight will hit me and I will slowly walk to where I'm going to be seated standing and then the show resumes that's right and we'll have some shoes for you

48:19David Byrne this is like my dream come true thank you so much for being here thanks for having me it was a fun talk this is cool thank you

48:36I believe our sound engineer Eduardo has something he likes to say yes sound is that the correct term by the way sound engineer sure audio engineer sound engineer both work he said audio engineer I think that's what he prefers that's what you want right either is fine okay no that's not true I could we paused our microphone guy yeah Yeah, perfect. Talkie man. Yeah, talkie man has something he'd like to say. What's up, Eduardo? I have some exciting news to share about a gentleman at this table who's going to be making his triumphant return to the soccer field in a couple weeks. Well, I know it's not me because I never got on the soccer field.

49:14That's not true. I've seen your remote in Mexico. Oh, that's true. You did get on the soccer field. Who did I play with? Giovanni Los Santos. Oh my God, that's right. Yes, but yes, you were right. It's not you that's going to be making your return. it's Mr. Matt Gourley, who I believe is training for, do you want to talk more about this? Well, boy, I mean, I've been since hitting 50, wanting to get a bit back in shape, eat healthy, and go to the gym and exercise, get my cardio. And I was, how should I put this? I know you don't think of me as the most athletic person, and trust me, I don't either.

49:49Ken, it's so funny you say that, because when I think of you going to the gym, I picture a gym from 1910, and you have a friend who, Yeah, you have that one of those jiggling belts, but also you throw a medicine ball. And then there are some wooden pins that you toss around. But I did play soccer for a number of years when I was a kid and actually played club soccer and all-star soccer, believe it or not. And I am going back. Eduardo plays and he got us on a team called Mellow Yellow. Oh, wow. Exciting. Yeah. And it's in your favorite city of Pasadena. I do like Pasadena. Man, Pasadena in August, though.

50:25This summer, it gets hot. That's a frying pan. I know, and I am not good in the heat. And I might not be good at soccer in the first place. I encourage you to watch Conan's remote. I mean, do you have any tips for... I don't remember. I shot so many remotes over so many years that I have dim memories. I'd have to re-watch it. How many times have you played soccer? I think you watched it. I don't think I really played soccer. Soccer was not my sport. My legs are way too long. so for uh any kind of message to get from my brain to my feet oh yeah it takes like four days it's like a flintstones bit where they you know they they hand a note to a bird yeah it has to take off you'd be better off shouting the message to your feet exactly yeah uh so i i don't remember that too well but um i i know that uh soccer is not my sport although i admire it i i think they're probably the best athletes because they run constantly.

51:19That's what scares me. And the hottest. And are they? Oh. Oh, well, yeah, I got that. I think so. Them and hockey players. Yeah, I mean. I don't understand. The hockey players cover their. Right. Soccer. We are. We are. Have helmets on. The hottest. The soccer players. We are. Okay. Is that true? I think so. Okay. Yeah. That's why I watched the World Cup. The what cup? The World Cup. The World Cup. The World Cup. That's where all the sheep. You watch it with Barbara Walters. So I think that's good. Are you feeling, what's the process of you getting into shape? I run on a treadmill. I run about four miles a week.

51:59Okay. And then I do a little bit of strength training. And then I've tried to change my diet. The only problem I haven't been able to fix is cocktails. I still got to have my cocktails. That's a lot of sugar. There's a lot of empty calories. Are there steaks? As in like. Do you, if you compete against the other teams, do you guys win a trophy? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a trophy. But I'm nervous. You know what I found? You can go buy the trophies. I know I pass trophy stores all the time, and I just go in and buy them. My shelves are filled with amazing trophies. No, this is a trophy wife. We get a trophy wife.

52:29That's a big deal here in Los Angeles. So what's the plan? So you're getting there. I'm a little nervous because I've never been a great endurance guy. I can sprint pretty well, and I'm tenacious mentally, but I think my body's going to give out pretty quick, especially if it's hot. So we'll see. How long has it been since you last played? Soccer? Yeah. I've never seen you stand up. No, I don't. I swear to God, all these five years we've been working together and he's always seated. And I saw you once on the sidewalk and you were in a rolling chair. Yeah, that's right. Just shoveling from an office and you were just shoveling yourself along.

53:01I played, like I said, when I was a kid and then I joined soccer in high school, but they didn't really play me. That's usually not a good sign. He's on your team, Eduardo? Now, how good are you, Eduardo? I'm okay. I bet he's pretty good. I bet he's, yeah, that means he's really good. Hey, why don't you give me the benefit of the doubt? Let me try that. Ask me how good I am. How good are you? I'm okay. I think you're exaggerating. Huh? Huh? I'm sorry. So if one was to play soccer, does that make them hot? Does the tail wag the dog? You're back to that? Yeah, I'm sort of stuck on that one. I don't know.

53:40I'd like to be thought of as hot, And I'm curious if I played soccer and you didn't know me and you saw the guy my age playing soccer on the field in super short shorts. Oh, boy. Like really short. I think I'd be like, why is his coordination off? And then because these guys, they're running for such a long period of time. They run the whole time. And they don't. They're just wearing a shirt and shorts and like long socks. You know, it's funny. I'm into. I would be OK with it. I would play if I could be on a pony. No one else is. I'm the only one. Conan is playing polo while other people are soccer.

54:16So I'm playing polo and I have a big, like a mallet. But everyone else is running, but I'm on a pony. And I mean a very small pony. Like my legs are dragging. Why are you on a pony? I don't know. I just, I like the visual of Conan's going to play and he's paying for all of our jerseys and he's paying for all the snacks. But there's one caveat. He has to be, he brought a pony with him. And actually I have like seven ponies because it's so hot. I was going to say the ponies probably would pass out in that heat. I would put camelbacks on them, you know, that bikers wear and have hoses going into their mouths so that they're constantly drinking nutritious waters.

54:53Maybe you could be our team manager. And maybe Sona can be our team mom. And you can be the manager. I want to lose it all the time. I want to be someone who gets to give a yellow card. That's a ref. You should be the ref. Yeah, that's the referee. And I would just be thrown. I would love that. I would like that on the podcast. If one of you gets out of line or says something I don't like, I can just toss cards around. You're the one that needs that kind of thing. I'm above the law. No. You're off sides. Soccer. I'm on a pony. Soccer. Well, listen, I'm looking forward to it and maybe I'll come check you guys out.

55:22He said not meaning it. Yeah. Soda said she'd go. I did. She wants to ogle the guys. Oh, yeah. Clearly she wants to get a look at her old coworker in the soccer gear. Oh, that's it. That's it. That's it. Wearing cleats, shin guards, and other things that you wear when you play soccer. No, I'll come. I'm close. We talked about it. I know which park you're going to go to, too. I'll come cheer you guys on. I'll chop her in. Okay. Chopper in? Yeah. It's Pasadena. Oh. I can't be expected to drive all that way. I need to call my chopper. Are you going to land the chopper in the middle of the field? I'm going to land it in the middle of the field, and so many people are going to get cut up by the blades.

56:00Oh, man. Ah! Ah! Hello, everyone. Why are people screaming? What's all this blood about? I'm going to land on the field with no permit or anything and tear up all the sod. They do call it sod, don't they? It's artificial turf, but sure. They call it sod. All right. Well, listen, good luck to you. Thanks. And I do applaud you on this effort to get in shape. I think that's great. Thank you. And trust me, as a guy who maintains himself in perfect condition, you're going to enjoy it once you get to where I am now. You said perfect. Yep. Ten. Ten. Ten out of ten. Okay. established. Hot me. Over and out.

56:42Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend with Conan O 'Brien, Sona Mufsesian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Nick D 'Leal, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering by Eduardo Perez Additional production support by Mars Melnick Talent booking by Paula Davis Gina Batista and Britt Kahn You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode Got a question for Conan?

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