Ron Howard

23:42And even as a six-year-old, I mean, my dad was having to read the lines at the read-through, and I would just kind of sit there at first. My father rants. But later, you know, when I started to learn to read and so forth, I was in it. And I actually started occasionally making a suggestion, and they never, you know, it never went anywhere. Kind of pissed me off a little bit in that first year. And I will never forget, it was the second episode of the second season, and I had turned seven. and we were rehearsing this scene where I was supposed to come into the courthouse and Otis Halbsmith, Otis was over here and Andy was there and Don was somewhere else.

24:20And I came in and I was supposed to say, hey, Pa, something, something, whatever the line was. And then I sort of stopped the director, Bob Sweeney, said, what is it, Ronnie? And I said, well, I don't think a kid would say it that way. And he said, well, how do you think a kid would say it? I don't remember what the line was, but I pitched my little fix on it. And he said, okay, good. Yeah, do it that way. And it was just like I was a part of it. I just felt this surge of, you know, of being involved in something. And Andy from across said, what are you grinning at, youngin? And I said, what's the first idea of mine you've taken?

25:00And he gave it the proper beat and he said, well, it was the first one that was any damn good. Now let's rehearse the scene. To a seven-year-old. But you know what's also nice? If you look at the history of situation comedies, especially usually and increasingly so through the 70s and 80s and 90s, the kid's role was to say something overly sophisticated and wise-ass, wise-assy that a kid would never say. Right. So that's where you get all these, you know, the Gary Coleman character that's just like, well, if you ask me, sounds like this guy's paying too many taxes. Yeah, yeah. You know, and...

25:37I love that episode. I know. I agree with him. I think we are paid too many times. But, and what I think really holds up well is your character is a real boy. He's a, you're playing, you're playing the reality of the situations. You're not saying, let me get this straight. Otis is drunk again. Sounds like someone needs rehab. And like, winking at the camera, which by the way, would have been a great line. But, well, okay. This is something that means a lot to me. and I didn't know anything about it at the time, but later Andy told me this. So when we were doing like a revival, Return to Mayberry or one of those interview sort of specials or something, Andy told me this, that in that very first season, the first episode, that my dad was an actor, not a famous actor, but he was professional and working, took it upon himself to just go up quietly to Andy at one point and say, now I see they're writing Opie kind of the way they write the Rusty Hamer character on Danny Thomas.

26:44And like so many shows where he's a wise ass. And he said that, you know, Ronnie can do that and everything, but what if he actually respected his father? And Andy thought about it and told me years later that he went back to the writers and said, let's write, let's write Andy Opie like like Ronnie Rantz oh wow and yeah and let's try that and they went for it yeah well it stands out we've been fed a steady diet of everyone hates dad dad's an idiot right and the kid and the kid knows it and the kid knows it and he's always letting him know it and it and it got amped up sometimes stretched out in kind of a meta way like on Married with Children where you know they're or sometimes the Simpsons where they're actively plotting their father's death That does make me laugh.

27:30It's effective. No, no. It's really funny. And I think the right way to go. My point is your dad was wrong. And I don't think you should be here. That's fascinating to me that you were part of that and you could have been part of so many shows, but that one's different. Yes, yes. Then you go from that, you're in film, and then you start to think, you know what I think I'm going to do? You're interested in directing because you're around, you're watching directors, you're interested in it. And there's a job you take on a TV show and you think, well, this probably won't get in the way of me going to film school.

28:03Right. Because what TV show lasts more than a pilot or a first season? Right. And so you sign up for Happy Days. Correct. You idiot.

28:16Which now, I mean, I mostly know Andy Griffith's show, Mayberry RFD, from reruns because I really come of age in the 70s. the thing is happy days like it's it's the it's suddenly the only show on tv that we all watch and you're just right there at the heart of this thing this juggernaut and it was not the plan right no it wasn't really the plan uh and and and also of course the course of the show it evolved you know as as as as henry winkler's character fonzie took off right you know the whole show shifted. It was pretty thrilling to be around it. And we went from a solid show to sort of drifting like that we get canceled to let's let's put Fonzie front and center and take advantage of this.

29:05And then I think we became a number one show even that first season that we that we went in front of an audience, which was a huge education for me because I'd never done anything in front of people. And here we have this Gary Marshall, this great bunch of writers, Lowell Gans among them, who wound up writing with his partner, Bob Lou Mandel, you know, Night Shift and Splash and all, and so many other movies, League of Their Own and City Slickers. Anyway, but suddenly it was about these hard laughs and that I had never really been around that search. You know, Don Knotts would sometimes get there, but it was a more of a, it was a gentle, you know, totally based on reality.

29:44I was terrified doing it, but I learned so much. And Jerry Paris was this consummate comedy director. Just educate film nerds out there. I mean, TV nerds out there. Jerry Paris was the neighbor on Andrew Griffith's show. I mean, on Dick Van Dyke. Right. On Dick Van Dyke. And they had let him direct and found that he had this incredible gift. And he was a funny actor, but he was a brilliant comedy director. and we had him for almost 95 % of our episodes was Jerry and he was a ringleader and just tremendous and a great teacher. And, uh, and, and suddenly, you know, I'm feeling the audience and I'm understanding timing and all these kinds of things in a way that I never did before.

30:27Of course, Henry, great stage actor, Tom Bosley was on the show, you know, and, uh, um, when I finally get a chance to start directing comedy where we are going for laughs, which is night shift and then Splash. I was so grateful to have in my head the kind of the rhythms that I'd learned about, not from the Andy Griffith show, but from Happy Days. One of the things I remember, I think the first time I saw it on Happy, was on Happy Days. And then you later on saw it more and more, but characters would enter and, you know, first season of Happy Days, I remember was single camera and, and shot more in this very filmic way.

31:03And then second season, you're in front of a studio audience and then the show is becoming super popular, crazy popular. And so characters will enter and the audience will go crazy. And so characters had to, they're entering with important information. Like there's a fire across the street. Yeah. So Ron, you'll enter, you'll enter the, you know, whatever, the malt shop and you'll be like, hey, hey, and everyone will go like, yay! And you'll stand there. Right, just take a pause. Because you can't talk and you're not and look around and then you'll go, And then what's finally, when everyone dies down, there's a fire across the street.

31:39And if you take the reality of it, there's something, you're like a sociopath. Like, why didn't you tell everybody right away? I was waiting for my applause, man. Well, that was it. I mean, look, that was part of the excitement was to take all the hysteria around Fonzie and put it in front of an audience and actually directly compete with J.J. Walker. Yeah, exactly. Good times. Good times. That's what they were going for. And the same thing would happen with J.J. on that show. Yeah. And so it was kind of a thing. Now, I don't know. I'm not watching a lot of audience sitcoms these days, but I don't know whether, I think most people, they don't even shoot with an audience.

32:27I think they just, they block and shoot. It's so funny because tastes have changed. Times have changed so much. I think we're in a golden age. Sometimes people decry, oh, TV these days. I agree. You know, you were talking about speed and density of comedy and so forth. And when we were beginning Arrested Development, Mitch Hurwitz and I talked a lot about The Simpsons. And part of that style was to create, I kept saying, a kind of density of laughs. Yeah. Yeah. And and I was a big proponent of that. And which kind of led to not only the style, which was sort of supposed to be originally much a little more faux documentary than it wound up being.

33:06But, you know, I was pitching the idea of a narrator and Mitch said, I don't think we're going to need that. And we did it and so forth. You know, and he just he shot it and it was funny, but he said, you know, we should try it as an experiment. I kind of think you're on to something. so I was I was directing a movie in Santa Fe and he said would you just temp in the voice and I so I did it literally in the sound truck we were on location in Santa Fe I did it one lunch break for the pilot right and so sent it off didn't think much about it a couple of days later Mitch called back and said uh well I have I have really good news and news that maybe is good or maybe not I don't know and I said well okay well give me the really good news first he said the pilot tested really well.

33:48And I said, well, what's the mixed news? He said, well, I just don't know how you're going to feel about it because the narrator tested the highest and now you have to do it. We sold the show, but I said, you're doing it. You're the narrator. But you know, but I love being part of that. You know, it makes sense because my son and I watch, rewatch, rewatch and rewatch Arrested Development all the time because he's got really good comedy taste. I'm not so much to his liking, but we'll watch it again and again and again. And what makes perfect sense to me, you know, when something's done, you just take it for granted that everything is the way it is.

34:31So of course it would never occur to me that you wouldn't be the narrator of Arrested Development. And I think for my money, if you had to say like, okay, there's, what are the, what are the, the absolute acme? What's the the height of television comedy, and you can, not one, but you can pick like five, Arrested Development's in there. The best of it is absolute perfection. And I do think that people know you, they like you and they trust you. And you, your voice saying, meanwhile, Buster, Buster had his own ideas. And it's such a dense show, you know, Buster thinking he's in Mexico, although really he's only 10 miles from his house, sleeping at his housekeeper's residence.

35:20It's a constant, you're being taken by the hand through this absolute madness. And I don't think that show could exist without you there taking you along. Thank you, it was really fun. But whenever I'd have an episode where I really had a lot of lines, I said, Mitch, you've been struggling with this one. You're looking for the narrator to bail you out, man. Now, the reason that was funny is because when you found yourself reading lines like that. But Mitch, a bona fide comedy genius. Yes. And the cast that we assembled from the first moment, it was like, you know, this is a little too good to be true.

36:07I mean, it's just home run hitters at every turn. Yeah, it is absolute. perfection. I can't watch it enough. And it's still the go-to if my son's had a hard day or I've had a hard day or we both had a hard day. Well, okay. Arrested Development is still the go-to. And we watch it. And there are certain moments that I go to again and again and again that I can't. And I'm friends with a bunch of these guys. So I will corner Will Arnett and say, why does it bother you if you're dancing as the magician, but Buster's dancing as well? What bothers you that because he's often getting like, no, no, no, I do that.

36:50But I'll just hound him all the time about that stuff. And he's got answers. Yes, he's got answers. So you've now hit a gusher twice. And that implies that you had nothing to do with it because you did. But you've had this great fortune. And then I remember very clearly seeing, oh, there's going to be this movie, Grand Theft Auto, and it's directed by Ron Howard. Now, since then, we're very familiar with the idea of an on-camera person directing a film. But I remember at the time thinking, what? Yeah. I felt that pressure because, you know, I mean, I was that, I might as well have had that famous t-shirt, what I really want to do is direct since I was about 14, you know?

37:30And I would get the most sort of patronizing responses when i would admit it and but i i but i also made the most out of those situations and i would i would hang with the directors and take notes and do all kinds of things um and uh but but you know yeah that was not a transition and particularly to have been a kid actor on a sitcom you know the whole thing it was it was ludicrous in people's minds. So, but you, but you have a, you must have a confidence because you knew on some level, you knew I got this. Yes, I did. I really, I mean, I mean, in fact, I started shooting Grand Theft Auto the day after my 23rd birthday, but I was disappointed because I had really planned to direct a feature while I was still in my teens.

38:14That was my, that was my goal, you know? And, And but, you know, again, the business was so much more closed then. And there was not even any like MTV or anything where you could go and prove your chops somewhere. Or today, people can make a film using their phone. You take this phone and you make something. And then you put it online. And you don't need to convince a studio if it gets like, oh, this got like 10 million likes. You're good. Well, by the way, I just got to jump to the documentary that we're going to talk about, Jim Henson. I made a documentary about Jim Henson and the Muppets. But he and his wife, Jane, were so much like young content creators of today.

39:03Yes, yes. Because the new medium, the new thing, the tech that was interesting to them was TV, which was just brand new. And he wasn't even interested in puppets, but he loved television. He wanted to be a part of it. He was living in Washington. And he went down there and just kind of they were looking for a five-minute puppet show to go with the news. I mean, you know, but they were just experimenting with TV. And he got in on the experiment along with Jane, ultimately became his wife. but you you look at these crazy little six second commercials they did and these little five minute bits they did for for after the news hour and it was so inventive and and it was all bets are off and just kind of whatever you want to do but they were doing they were getting their 10 000 hours in and they were doing what a what a content creator does now which is find your voice see if anybody's interested figure out what they're interested in and and um you know and go for there well at that time there was there was really no outlet like that for me i mean i literally was thinking about going down to public access television and trying to like do a show on public access television because getting the chance to direct a feature film entertainment was so much smaller you said it was closed it was a very insular world yes there's three networks right there's a couple of studios they make the stuff they decide who the people are and so very impossible to crack into that.

40:29And especially if they have a preconceived notion, like, I'm sorry, you're the guy from Happy Days and you're Opie. Now I could have had a chance to direct Happy Days episodes in a contract renegotiation, but I said no to that because I didn't want anybody other than Jerry Paris to direct. It would be not fair to the cast. And the other thing I thought was, well, what if I whiff, you know, every once in a while there, an episode doesn't work. yeah and if i do well they say well it's his show if i if i if i have an off episode then well he can't even direct his own show and it's three camera not what i wanted to do but roger corman was one of the few people who was taking that kind of a risk and i knew that about him and he wanted me to act in a movie called eat my dust and i read eat my dust and i didn't much care for it.

41:18I saw no Oscars in, you know, no Oscar opportunities in that one. But I did have a script that I'd written that was kind of a slice of life about a guy stuck over college break in Hollywood. And I had some short films. I was supposed to go in and have this meeting about Eat My Dust. American Graffiti had been a big hit. Happy Days was becoming a number one show. and Roger wanted me to be in this car crash comedy. And my agent was going to come with me to sit with me to have this meeting. And he was my agent for like my whole childhood. And I remember saying, you can't go in with me. I was only 21, but I knew I was going to try to barter.

42:01And he didn't care about that. I knew he didn't care about that. So I remember the look on his face. He was shattered. I mean, his client said, no, don't go to the meeting. So I went in, talked to Roger. I said, I, you know, I don't love Eat My Dust, but what I really want to do is direct. Here's a script. I think I've raised half the money coming out of Australia,$150 ,000. I needed another$150 ,000 in distribution. And if you do that, then I'll happily be in Eat My Dust. He read it. He got back to me. He looked at my student films and he said, well, that's a character piece. It's very well written, but it's not what I do.

42:43And he said, here's what I'll promise you. If you act and eat my dust, I'll give you a chance to write a script. If you write the script and I like it and you're willing to be in it again, then I'll let you direct that. if that fails, I'll let you direct the, you know, second unit on something and the car crashes or the fights or something else. So I thought, okay, so here's my big, I leveraged my way into a second unit job. Yeah. That's going to look great on the resume, but I took it. And, and, and when, when Eat My Dust succeeded, I went in and I pitched so many different ideas, a sci-fi thing, a noir thing, you know, just different kinds of projects.

43:27And he smiled and he said, he said, when we were testing, he was very erudite. Roger. I remember. He had been to Caltech and he was an engineering, you know, an engineer at heart. He said, when we were testing titles for Eat My Dust, there was another title that came in a very strong second, Grand Theft Auto. If you can fashion a car crash comedy that we can correctly entitle Grand Theft Auto.

43:59I'd probably make that picture. My dad and I cooked up an outline. We wrote a script in a month. It was the fastest green light I've had in my entire career as a director. Roger Corman passed, I believe, a week ago. A week ago, yes. Age of 98. 98 years old. So sharp. I talked to him six months ago. I mean, he went to see my 13 Lives. He went to a screening. You know, he was so supportive of all of his graduates. He just remained so connected. Well, he must have been incredibly proud of what you, you know, pulled off. He was proud of all of us. He was proud of all of us. Jim Cameron, Joe Dante, Alan Arkish, you know, hell, Francis Coppola and Scorsese, Bogdanovich.

44:38The list goes on.

44:48So I had this great treat yesterday, which is, I'm told I get to see an advanced copy of Idea Man. And I have a lot emotionally invested in this film because I have my own Jim Henson connection. I watched the film and it's fantastic. It's a fantastic documentary. There are so many things I learned about Jim Henson that I did not know. Jim Henson, I didn't realize his background growing up in this Christian science. His mom's a Christian scientist. His mom's a Christian scientist. And he wasn't formally because he wasn't all that religious. But of course, he was raised in that environment. But he was creative.

45:34He was smart and he wanted to express himself. And his dad was a bit of a scientist, like an agricultural scientist. And so they would travel around to different parts of the country, a lot of it in the South. But Jim, you know, was looking for that kind of breakthrough. But it was a moment of transformation. And he seized that opportunity. But it's interesting that he wound up grabbing, you know, an ancient art form and elevating it. When I was a kid sitting around, we were talking about The Andy Griffith Show. a lot of the character actors who would come on that show would be bitching and moaning because radio was dead or vaudeville had gone.

46:14And yet we all know that those mediums didn't vanish. You know, there isn't a vaudeville circuit per se, but there's stand up, there's Cirque du Soleil, there's, you know, I mean, it's the art forms are as relevant as ever. And I think you're so right, Conan. I mean, I just think creative people figure out a way. They find a way. And what's fascinating to me is, so Jim Henson is very interested in puppets, puppeteering. And one of the things that he wants to do early on is, and I haven't thought of this before, but it's in your documentary. A lot of puppeteering was done just in kind of a wide shot where you see - With the theater.

46:56With curtains and stuff. Priscinium and little curtains and the characters are all bashing each other and things are happening. I don't know if it's Jim Henson or his wife, Jane, but they understand that the TV camera has to be right up against the puppets, Muppets, and that so that you can see their expressions and you can see a character deflate. And what's really fascinating to me is you're looking, you know, you have access in a documentary to all that early footage long before it's very sophisticated. It's basically Kermit, but they don't know it's Kermit yet. But the kind of the puckering of the mouth yes when there's a little bit of uncertainty and the looking to the side and then the maybe looking back at the camera all that stuff is there and it's uh in close-up and they're looking at a what basically looks like a kinescope like the right the technology is very crude right but you can see oh my god they're looking at the monitor and sort of seeing well where is the camera and where do i fit in and yeah and uh um but the timing on this stuff was just fantastic, you know?

47:56Yeah. And we interviewed Frank Oz. Yep. You know, the family was great. They made the archives available, but also they made themselves available in a really significant way. And look, they're storytellers themselves. And so they, you know, they recognized the need to share what they understood about their parents, you know, in a dimensional way. And so that was incredibly valued. But Frank was there side by side and he gave so much to the movie through his interview. In fact, stylistically, you know, I tried to sort of channel Jim Henson and that aesthetic. A lot of stop motion, a lot of very kinetic cutting and some animated beats.

48:36Yes, some animations and things like that. And the idea sort of stemmed first from me watching a lot of Jim's experimental movies that had nothing to do with puppets. Which I didn't know about, by the way. Yeah, me neither. And they're cool, you know? And in fact, they anticipate a lot of what you're going to eventually see in commercials or even music videos, right? You know, I mean, they're kind of hard days night and stuff like that, you know? So Frank, we did the interview and I just had this idea. We did it in a cube because one of his experimental TV shows was called the cube. And it's like a human being trapped sort of just with himself and his ideas and thoughts.

49:11So we decided to have the interview subjects be in a cube. It also would allow us to use those cubes. They're almost like television tests to keep putting a lot of visual imagery in there and keep telling this story of Jim and the Muppets. But we did Frank's interview. It was very moving, very informative, very funny. And I said, you know, Frank, what if we did like, what if your entrance into the set, we were going to have you just come and sit down, but what if we did it stop motion? And he, of course, instantly knew what to do. So we put the camera up high. We had a chair kind of squiggle in, come in and stop.

49:43And he went in perfectly one take, laid out all the steps and all the beats so that we could do it. And it just established immediately for the editors and myself that, you know, we were going to inform this movie with this kind of aesthetic. Well, also, you were having fun. Yes. Which is the essence of Jim Henson. Yes. You know, my connection to it was that my whole reason I'm in comedy is I was always interested in comedy and doing it for my friends. And then I decide I need to be serious. So I go to a serious college, which turns out to have this very old humor magazine in it as part of it, the Harvard Lampoon.

50:17I get on the lampoon and almost immediately the person who's put in charge of it, the first woman to ever be put in charge of it is Lisa Henson. Then she's my boss. I'm working for Lisa Henson. And then every now and then Jim Henson's around and I'm losing my mind. Wow, I bet. And he could not have been a sweeter, nicer man. And in fact, Lisa graduates. I take over the lampoon. and at one point Jim Henson calls me and says, hey, we just finished The Dark Crystal and we have these thrones that the creatures sit on in The Dark Crystal. Do you guys want one for your lampoon building? Oh my God. And you've never heard me say yes to anything more quickly.

51:00That's amazing. And so I said, yes, how do I make this happen? Because I'm just still a kid. I'm like 19 and I'm going, yes, Mr. Henson. So what do I, and he said, and it's funny because when you're talking to Jim Henson, you're talking to Kermit. Kermit, kind of, yeah. So Kermit's on the other end of the line saying, well, you know, just get a van and come on down to New York and pick it up. You idiot. And I'm like, okay, Kermit, Henson, bye. So I hang up the phone. We rent a van and my friend Mark Gannam and Maya Williams, we jump in this van and we drive down to Manhattan. And I'm petrified because I'm like, we're driving to Manhattan.

51:39Suddenly it's like a Muppet movie. and I'm kind of a Muppet. And I'm going, what's happening? Beaker's day out. Yeah, exactly. I'm Beaker. And we get there and sure enough, there's like Snuffleupagus is hanging from the ceiling and they say, oh yeah, here's the chair. It's made of, it's not that heavy because it's made of this super light material. We carry it like a jewel. It's amazing. We put it in the back of the van. I sat in one of those chairs at the studio. Yeah, and I drove it all the way back to Cambridge and we put it in the Lampoon building. So cut to, I don't know, like maybe nine months ago, I'm in Cambridge and a student comes up to me and says, hey, by the way, Conan, I'm on the lampoon.

52:17You want to come by? And I went, yeah, sure. I've been there in a long time. So I go by and there's the chair. Oh, great. Little banged up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they drink. I mean, the puppets drank. It was that way when we got it. But anyway. Amazing. Well, Lisa's fantastic. She's amazing. She's great. So is Brian. You know, the whole family. Very talented. But it's kind of a tribute to them because, look, the reality is, and when you see the film, we deal with the family. Jim and Jane had an amazing, very unique and very specific kind of romance and relationship and working relationship.

52:51And the very thing that brought them together was the birth of this brainchild, the Muppets, also was the thing that ultimately kind of caused the relationship to erode and the romance to be lost. And yet they there was still so much love and respect for one another and for creativity. And the kids are great and the kids love each other and they appreciate their parents in a very in a very honest, you know, clear eyed way. And they knew they couldn't make this documentary themselves. You know, they're they're creative, they're producers and directors and so forth. But but I felt so fortunate that they would that they would trust me.

53:30and I got very excited about it when I went to the studio here, the Chaplin Henson Studio, and saw all this archival stuff because two things happened on that day. One was I saw those crazy TV commercials and that early, early stuff. I saw the experimental stuff that's just weird and strange and yet you can see in forms. Very avant-garde. Very avant-garde. Very cutting edge, very ahead of its time. but you could see you know the way that it influenced the mainstream stuff that is so beloved that we all appreciate and and yet and I also got to talk to the kids and I recognized that there was this family story to be told as well that would be so relatable because there is a there's of course there's a cost to that level of output and you know and a human you know there's a human factor there.

54:25And we're all the beneficiaries of all that hard work, but we didn't see all the things that he did that kind of misfired and at the time disappointed him, including Labyrinth, which of course now is a classic. You know what's interesting is that you go back and you look at these moments and a lot of people forget this, but your documentary brings it back. I was a writer at Saturday Night Live for a couple of years. Then I'm doing the late night show and our studio was on the sixth floor. Saturday Night Live studio is on the eighth floor, but right down the sixth floor not far down the six floor there was a little office because in the early days of snl the first season jim henson frank oz they're doing right the muppets are part of snl and they had a little office and they they drew all of these characters on these pipes right and now of course it's been put behind glass and preserved but in my day you could just go by and there's some pipes there and they're just covered with those drawings yeah amazing i'm not trying to wipe them off you know because i like clean pipes i just think pipes should be clean but i couldn't get them off no but they but that was a misstep for them right because that that kind of it didn't that didn't you know what's interesting is that all the cutting edge cool sardonic you know michael o'donohue's uh you know wise asses at first season snl were like these puppets what are they these puppets are here i hate these puppets and so it was very you can tell in the documentary crushing to jim henson and then he spirals off from that and creates the muppet show yeah but he'd been he'd been trying to sell the muppet show for years and failing i mean all the networks turned it down twice uh there's a hilarious pitch sort of video that they made that is using the muppets to sell the idea yeah and going completely over the top and it's jim's voice and it's just it's just it's just brilliant.

56:13You know, it's so interesting because Jim was, you know, you got to really know him. I met him only once, but it's so shy and retiring in person, you know, I mean, just kind of, and you think of him as a performer, but not with a microphone, not with a camera on his face. It's through the puppets, you know, we were talking about Andy and Don, but it became so clear, not even so much from the interview with Frank Oz, because he was very modest about his contributions. But as I began to recognize and look at these videos, what a comedy team they were. Yes. Not just Bert and Ernie, but, you know, Miss Piggy and Kermit.

56:52There's a great bit in there with Fozzie and Kermit. And this is timing. I mean, it's like precision comedy timing. And they just nailed these bits. Well, I think that's the thing is good comedy is good comedy. So if you're making it for kids on PBS or you're making it, you know, for adults, Good timing is good timing. That's why, I mean, I always got my timing from early on from Warner Brothers cartoons. Because they were shown in shorts in theaters to adults. They weren't condescending. So the timing was pitch perfect on those. And then I think the same thing with when you look at a really good Sesame Street bit, it's just good.

57:28There's no condescension of, well, this is funny for kids. But I didn't realize how many of those bits that Jim directed. I just thought he, you know, he brought the Muppets and performed and they did that. And I didn't realize that all those bits that used to catch my attention when three-year-old Bryce was watching them were the counting bits and these great little experimental things that would make me sit down and watch the show and kind of admire what was going on there and envy it a little bit. And I later I realized, well, that's that was one of the one of the reasons Jim did it because he never wanted to do kids programming.

58:01But they said, you know, bring the Muppets, but we'll also let you do your experimental films. But how about doing them for kids so that they can learn? And and he had a he had a son with severe learning disabilities. So that was something that he was, you know, clued into. And he was once you say that the reason it really worked at every level was that he was really a satirist. Right. Oh, definitely. It's always there. What's interesting is that the early way that he made money was by making television commercials. So there are these Muppet commercials that, I don't know if you've seen them, but they're in black and white.

58:34And it's before anyone knew they were the Muppets, but you can tell it's the same, kind of almost the same characters, but they're prototypes. But they're doing like Hormel Ham commercials. Right. But they're very, and they last like seven seconds long, but because they're seven seconds long, they're very meta. Right. They're very today's sense of comedy. Yeah. They're not buy a Hormel ham. They're, they're, they're, they're very weird and very funny by today's standards and must've looked like very strange at the time. And yet really popular, you know? So they really, really broke through. I mean, they were doing some kind of, I mean, there was almost always an explosion or a gunshot involved in a Hormel ham commercial somehow.

59:14Bacon, they're selling, they're pretty much selling anything, but they're doing ads the way we as part of the podcast we do ads and i always do them in my sensibility my way and then afterwards think no one's going to pay for that right and they do yeah and you can leave this in i don't think they should but they do adam sacks is going to take that out but uh but um because they see the value of we found out that they like that people listen to the ads yeah and and uh yeah i I mean, they were, look, they were emotional without being sentimental. Yeah. Definitely always had a point of view and always had something to say, you know, in and around the zaniness.

59:55But the Muppet show, you know, I didn't think about it. I loved watching it. I didn't watch them, you know, religiously. But, man, I watch them now. Yeah. I mean, those episodes hold up. But I didn't realize that he was basically taking the English dance hall, sort of almost like vaudeville, their version, and applying that to the show. And he was making them in England. Yeah. So it's sort of, once again, what's old is new when put through this filter. You mentioned earlier, I knew Jim well and I can't say I did. I met him on a few occasions and he was really nice and he actually suggested he had some show that probably never went and it was towards the end of his life but suggested that I, because people were obviously like, that Conan's got like a look or something.

1:00:39He's irritating but he's got a look. um and and jim henson suggested that i audition for something for one of his shows and and i and i uh i remember they sent over i've told this but they sent they sent over sides that had two actors two characters and i didn't know which one he wanted me to audition for right so i i showed up at the and and said to the woman who was running the audition it says uh steve and mitch and i don't know which is which and she said oh here's the character breakdowns and she handed me steve and it said, women want to be with him, men want to be him. He oozes sexuality.

1:01:16And I was just like deflating. And then I said, can I see the one for Mitch? And she handed me Mitch. She was like, this gangly, goofy, red-topped goon stumbles his way through life. But people like him despite his many flaws and his asexuality. And I went, I think I'm the second guy. But, um, no, this is a lovely tribute. And one of the things that really got to me is because of my connection, when Jim passed very suddenly in 1990, and it was such a shock because it was just out of nowhere. He gets this. 53 years old. 53 years old. I was invited to that memorial. And to this day, it's the greatest sendoff I've seen anybody have because it's a funeral.

1:02:04It's a funeral mass. It's a memorial. and it started with, I guess, a letter from Jim that he had written, which is like, well, if you're reading this, it must mean I'm gone. And he just decided to write this in case he ever passed suddenly. And he did. And it was so lovely. And then all the characters come out and we're all laughing and crying at the same time. So you show footage of the memorial service and I was there. And I, to this day have thought, that's what everyone should be like. It can't be because we're not all Jim Henson, you know, but that's what it should be. It really should be a celebration.

1:02:37Well, it clearly was. And, you know, his son Brian read that letter. And we have a bit of that in the, you know, it was a, you know, a tremendous tribute and moment. But he's so loved. I mean, everybody we interviewed, it was, you know, it was actually great to make a film that I thought was interesting, could be revealing and actually just doesn't have a dark side. I mean, it's just that he literally was just a guy who lived in a positive light and struggled ups and downs, difficulties on a personal side, but in, in, in the relationship. Sure. And yet set such a great advance, you know, example, like how you navigate that too.

1:03:19I mean, winning's easy, but when you struggle, that defines the man or the woman. And, and you look at both Jim and Jane and you, and you sort to say, well, that's, you know, we, we, we should, we should do that. The documentary is a tonic. I would recommend, uh, just, just watch it because you will laugh very hard, but it's also informative about so much more. You were the right guy to make this because I think, because, because you have just in every single decade of your life contributed good stuff, you know? And I think that's, who can say that? That's really remarkable, you know? Uh, and I, I, I'm, I'm so glad that you're here.

1:03:57I'm so glad I know you. I'm so glad you let me saw your arm off 30 years ago. And we're still at it. We're still going strong. Let's do a leg. Oh, I checked out his leg on the way in. That left one looks like it could go at any time. Anyway, make sure Jim Henson, Idea Man, is just, it's a gift. And make sure that you check it out. And Ron Howard, you're a gift. Thanks so much for being here. Great to be here. And let's get together, get a drink, and talk sunscreen whenever you want. Beautiful. Good. Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend. With Conan O 'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley.

1:04:40Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Nick Liao, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. me?

1:04:55Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.