Sharon Horgan

28:31I would say things just to try and, you know, that I had heard about that I didn't know. Or you'd use things you'd read like I, there was a pie cooling on the, oh, by the open window. The year was 1932 and I stole a pie from a cooling window and then lived down by the train tracks and ate beans out of a can. You know, I think people don't, it would be inspiring for people to know a lot of artists, actors, writers struggle, but you were really living on the edge for a while when you were starting out, meaning more or less squatting in places to kind of, because you didn't necessarily, couldn't make rent.

29:13Yeah, I mean, I squatted for about, I think it was about three and a half years. Good God. But, you know, it might have been longer. I think I was in one place for a half years and then I sort of squatted in a few other areas around London. So it was probably a bit longer than that. But it was a bit of a lifestyle thing as well. You know, I mean, I had a job and, you know, I just wasn't, you know, clearly I wasn't, I wasn't in the industry at that point. I was working in Kilburn, actually, the most Irish place in London that I could possibly find. And I was working in a job centre, so I didn't earn very much, but I definitely earned enough for rent.

29:53It was kind of a, you know. Bohemian choice, maybe? I think it was a bit of a bohemian choice. Like, I arrived in London with, like, 90 quid. So I couldn't afford rent when I came over first. But then, you know, I got a job. But at that point, I was, you know, just part of this sort of, yeah, lifestyle, I guess. Loads of Irish people. And you would sort of, there was a lot of, we lived in a high-rise flat and we occupied an apartment on the 18th floor. It was furnished with stuff that we found on the street. You know, it was just, it was kind of fun. I mean, when I stopped doing it, I squatted this sort of disused shop in Camden and we got like, you know, the heavies came around.

30:48Because really, it was legal at the time. As long as you got into the building and you didn't cause any damage or if you did, you know, if you broke in. It wasn't a big deal necessarily. It wasn't a big deal. You had like squatter's rights. but then if he squatted a property that was private and the landlord knew a few lads with baseball bats, then it wasn't great. So that's what happened. They kind of rushed us. Please tell me you're staying at a hotel here in New York. I love the idea that you would win the BAFTA, give a speech, leave the theater or the auditorium with all the flashbulbs and the cheers and then go out to an alley and lie down.

31:31old habits die hard i have a home now and yeah oh i just wanted to determine that that's good i just was worried about you okay i do worry um so uh you're such a i'll use the word impeccable i think your writing is impeccable you're such a great terrific writer and uh i know i started as a writer and struggled with this transition into performing it's new i knew it's what i wanted to do but had trouble figuring out what's my path right you said that initially you thought of yourself as someone who would be in front of the camera but at what point do you realize i'm i'm i can write i'm a this is i have a superpower here god i don't know like really really recently because i think um i i really do think if you start out as a performer you sort of you continue to see yourself as that and uh you feel a bit cheeky calling yourself a writer um so you'd be like I'm an actor and I do a bit of writing and you know because it was something I sort of learned on on the job you know and I had a lot of great um people along the way who who you know taught me how to be better um I felt like I was kind of you know I kind of felt it was down to them and I kind of felt like if I if I was sort of um just cast away on my own I I wouldn't be able to do it like I just sort of built this thing in my head and and so I really just had to start I really just had to start doing it on my own before I even remotely considered myself to be a writer.

32:58And then I just had to build up confidence with that. And, you know, you just convince yourself it was a fluke. We said your initial show, you have the success and then it's not followed up right away. Is that right? Oh, yeah. With pulling, it's just, it was, which maybe rattles the confidence a little bit. Was that just a one-off? Was that just all I had in the tank? I absolutely thought that was a one-off. And I got really, really lucky with pulling because, I mean, I started in sketch comedy and, you know, there was kind of a team of us and I really enjoyed that. But then once I started writing sitcom, once I started writing characters and narrative, I thought, well, no, this is everything.

33:40This is all I want to do now. So, you know, I wrote loads of pilots and just got on this conveyor belt of making pilots. over here like in in la like so oh well i've i've uh i'll make my fortune over here and and there was this thing that i'd never experienced in the uk of of of it being like a success to to get to get a pilot to make a pilot and you know that whole thing of you know everyone gets on the phone and they tell you they're going to pick up your pilot excitement everyone loves it yeah and then and then you know it doesn't get made into anything but that's not considered failing really like you come over the next year and you have another go and you've got another pilot and everyone's like hey and whereas I just felt like I was kind of going around in circles for I mean five years at least just uh and also I had this thing where I was kind of making pilots that were ending up as something that I didn't even if they got picked up I would be like I don't want to make that yeah you know because it changes you get your notes you get your notes things a little bit and then especially if you're if you're new if you're a bit of a rookie you're kind of going you know they do that thing where they say um um well if you make this change it's just it's just for the sales tool it's just you know we'll make this change we'll add the voiceover it won't be like that in the series we'll just add a voiceover across the whole thing right and um and then in series we you know and so you kind of get caught up in that a bit and you make all these changes and you end up with something that isn't remotely like you know thing you sort of hoped it would be and so for the most part most of the time i was just kind of praying that things wouldn't get picked up.

35:17I don't know if you've had this, but one of my favorite times is when I'm done with the performance and I'm meeting with everybody in the dressing room afterwards and we're going through the show and talking about everything. And then I know we're going out to dinner and I get to have some wine. That moment when I'm wiping the makeup off, but I know I'm going off to dinner and we're all going to be wise asses, but the show was a success. That's a moment that I absolutely adore. And I know it's never going to be quite that good again, you know, until I get to the next one. Yeah, because it can change on a dime, can't it?

35:54You know, like I've had, you know, I've been pretty happy with something and someone's gone in and sort of fiddled with it. And I've watched it and gone, oh, it's a load of bullshit. I mean, this is clearly a terrible piece of work. And so it doesn't take much for me to sort of lose my confidence. And because I do think there's not a huge amount of difference in, you know, when something's good and great. Right. It's just like detail and, you know, trusting yourself and your taste and all that. You've done a great job of finding these other people because I know you met Rob Delaney through Twitter and you guys, of course, worked together on Catastrophe and that's how I met you.

36:36You came on promoting that and remember that grabbing my attention and thinking, okay, this person's really special, but you, you know, finding voices that, you know, I can work with this person, this person, finding a good creative partner is not unlike going on a good date. It's just finding that we've got that frisson, we've got something that connects. I've been really lucky. I don't know how it's worked out for me, really. I mean, because I make a show in the UK called Motherland, and that is with, you know, co-writers as well. And I don't know. I've just gotten really lucky, I think, because I do.

37:13It's a scary thing, isn't it? It's a really scary thing. And, you know, any of my writing partners I've gone through, like, you know, I've lost confidence with myself, you know, where I found it too hard to sort of say something that I think is funny just because of, you know, just losing my confidence. But it's getting to that place where you feel like an old married couple where you really don't give a shit, you know, where you will fart in front of them and not be worried, you know, if it smells. I mean that's a metaphor I'm not I don't fart in front of Rob Delaney or Dennis Kelly or well I think you just said you did and we've got that now we've I'd like to say we've got it on tape but I know it's all digital where do I come from a different time you know you know the thing of like not being scared of course say something's cheap but you say something not funny you know all the people that I love working with uh I love my exercise is what's the worst thing I could do in this situation?

38:14What's the, and I spin out these wild scenarios of we're here in a restaurant, what's the worst thing I could do that would end me? And it's just something where I make a complete total ass of myself. And I spin it out in great detail and I can always see it perfectly clearly. And people will be laughing at that and I don't know what it is, but it's this comfort that I can say these horrible things to my friends about what I'm going to do in this restaurant that will finish me forever. And we talk about it and it's just a joy. It's a joy to have people like that in your life. Yeah. You know? One of the things that I was most, blew me away, I was thinking about this, from a writing standpoint with Bad Sisters is you're one of, is it, how many sisters is it?

39:03I'm trying to count up. You're one of how many sisters in Bad Sisters? In my real life? No, no, in Bad Sisters, it's one of five. That's right. So it's, yeah. It's same number of siblings in real life, but you're one of five. And I was watching the show and each sister is so distinct. Each one has a different voice. Each one is a very complete character. I believe totally that they're sisters, but also they're completely separate from each other. And they have very different voices. And I thought, that's incredible writing because I don't know how you do that. You know what I mean? It feels like a magic trick to me.

39:39Oh. Do you know, I do think that, well, I have to say that there is, you know, the original series, Clan, the Belgian series. Right, right. It was great. And you really, like, the thing that made me fall in love with it and want to adapt it was the sisters and their relationship. But I think it is the hardest thing to do because whenever I write anything, all you have is, like, you know, you write down a name and you decide someone's called, you know, Bob or whatever. I always start with Bob, whether it's a woman, a man, a dog, it's Bob. I used to call all my characters either, I think it was Harry if it was a man and Louise if it was a female.

40:22And I finished a script once and realized there was two characters in the script called Harry. That's how bad I was in names. I'm going to take back all my compliments about your writing. You're a terrible writer. No, but you know, you start out with, I think the character comes over time. I think you do a lot of character work leading up to sitting down and actually starting. But still, they're not defined. And I think it's just something that you just have to give a lot of time to. And you choose people in your life that it's based on, but even that's not enough. As you write it, you realize that there's just certain idiosyncrasies there.

41:07and you just keep leaning into it. And it risks, at a certain point, it risks becoming a sort of a caricature, you know, becoming, you know, if you decide, like with Ursula, we just decided that she should just really shit her pants more than any of the others. She's such a, you know, she's got so much responsibility in her life and she has a disabled son and she's a nurse. Right, right. She's the kind of character who you think would, you know. Have it all together. Yeah, but the very thought of getting caught doing this thing, it just, you know, the panic in her. It's surprising that she's the one that's transgressing.

41:48That's a nice word. Yeah, lovely. I want to, let's write a series together called Transgressing. Oh, I think, yeah. You seem really thrilled about this idea. I've managed to get Sharon Horgan to agree to doing a project with me called Transgressing. and it's at this, you know, you've never been more powerful. Maybe just transgression because I think titles with Ng have sort of, they've done the rounds, haven't they? They've kind of, you know, there's enough Ng's. So you were already fighting. But anyway, you know, you kind of, you lean into it and then you hope it doesn't become a cartoon and then like with the sisters, I kind of thought, I've been all of those ages, you know.

42:33I've been Becca. you know and even though I haven't lost an eye ever you know um I've I've you know I've been angry you know I've points in my life I've been a very angry woman you know I've I've not been the oldest um child but um you know I was able to draw my own sister for that and you just try and give as much um truth I think I think that's the thing when people dig your show it's normally because they really believe it right because I know that's what I love watching it doesn't matter if the characters are you know really great people or monsters as long as I believe them then I'm fully in I am in awe of a lot of this because I don't do it meaning I started in sketch stayed in sketch the only writing I did at length was for the Simpsons so literally cartoon but what a great family of characters It's such a great gig and I loved it.

43:35And it's some of my favorite stuff that I've done. But I never, even though I've had a great career as a writer, never delved into storytelling and on the level that, you know, someone like yourself is doing where you figure out these people and you figure out who they are and you breathe life into them. And so that's why I find it endlessly fascinating. Right. And when someone's so good at it, I just want to keep asking them, how do you do that? And the end of the day is you can just do it. I think, well, I don't know. It's definitely something that you're continuously learning all the time. You have to be or you're screwed anyway.

44:13But I think what I try and do is take the characters out of the situation of the sitcom or whatever it is or the drama and think, would they work outside of that particular situation? And if they're still funny or interesting away from The Office or that family or whatever it is, then you think, oh, well, I've got good characters. Well, I will say this. They're great characters and also really funny. I mean, that's the great trick about Bad Sisters is that it is drama and it is suspense in moments, real suspense in moments, and really funny. Oh, thank you. And you've got such a great touch. I imagine, I don't know, but I just would have to imagine that there were times in your life where you're saying, I'm a writer and I know how to do this.

45:02And there might have, I'm guessing people say, well, in a sexist way, no. you know i'm just i'm gonna make that assumption and then you fill in the blank yeah of course that happened i mean it kind of um but when i was starting out it happened in in quite a big way i was part of a little sort of sketch um troop and um one of the one of the chaps in in the troop just told me that i wasn't a writer you know he was like you are a good producer you're a great producer and and and he was going you and you are invaluable to me as as a what what is he talking what's he saying he meant that i was able to bring the best out of him but you couldn't you couldn't possibly do it myself but like it's weird that that kind of thing stays with you and it for for a good while i thought no i am a good producer i do know how to you know i i know you know even when I would write with Rob, I would sort of feel like, no, I'm really good at getting the best out of Rob.

46:04I'm good at, you know, pointing writers in the direction they should be going or helping sort of see the bigger picture like the overview. But that's just, you know, makes me really angry to think of, you know, that's where my head was at because that, you know, when people sort of put limits on you, you kind of end up sort of limiting yourself. Yeah, you can very easily buy into it. easily buy into it so that's I just decided I was you know a producer for years but um but no I I I love writing and I think you know that's how you become better at something isn't it when you kind of love it and then you you put the hours in yeah I think for me it was all about I wanted to be in front of the camera but I wanted control so I always liked being able to I would I could find great writers but I also knew what my voice sounded like and I wanted to be able to write for myself yeah and control that and so um you know i'm just all i ask is that you at some point cast me you know what would you like to what would i'll be a waiter in the back i mean i'm really will take any shit part but i would just love to say i would love to say oh yeah no i'm working with uh working with sharon horgan now she's cast me you're in a you know really yes and then even if it's just I walk by in the background I won't change my hair that has to be as ridiculous it is in real life yeah but um but it will so you you're happy to be a big distraction within whatever scene it is I will walk in in the background it'll be a basically a guy carrying a tray but I will stop and I will shoot the lens with my eyes for just a moment and slightly smile break the wall and then keep moving.

47:51Well, you know, you have got that level of charisma.

47:58You're the meanest person I'm going to talk to today. I love it. You could shut down my show just for the look. Just, I want to... Stop the scene. Oh, yeah. Yeah. People would say we loved that part. That part tested through the ceiling where that American idiot in the background ruined everything. You are incredibly busy. you're uh you're a massive star uh and you are on to bigger and better things today uh but i want to congratulate you i love bad sisters anyone who's listening right now hasn't seen it do yourself a major treat and watch it it's absolutely delightful and um you're gonna just fall in love with it uh and sincere sincere congratulations i'm so i've got a major uh crush on you in all the ways, in all the good ways.

48:49Thank you. And maybe some of the creepy ways, but we'll leave that for another day and I'll see that you're escorted out of the building safely. Oh, I'm glad you're here. Yeah, seriously. Thank you so much. So please, yeah, I will not be that Irish person who's taking the piss out of you. I'm delighted for you. I would be delighted to be sneered by you. That would be glorious. I'll get the fuck out of here then. Okay, well, fuck you.

49:22Apparently you met someone who has since reached out to us. This is Jay Elmore, and he's the executive chef of EJ's Luncheonette in New York City. And he says that he would like to name some specials after the hosts of the podcast. A gourlay burger, a Mobsessian salad, a Conan sandwich, any ingredient, I'll make it happen. Someone was silly enough to put me in charge of a restaurant, and I'm desperate for new ideas for specials. This is nice. I love this. I think I remembered meeting this gentleman right outside EJ's luncheonette. And I would love, I'll say it's a slippery slope, this sandwich thing.

49:56Because I remembered getting a sandwich named after me once at a deli in New York City. And I was thrilled, thrilled. And it was the Conan and, you know, corned beef and, you know, Russian dressing and all this great stuff. And I was so thrilled it was at a Midtown diner. And what happens is you're excited and you go in and you look up and you see your name up there. And it's up there with, you know, get the Liza Minnelli hot dog. Yeah. You know, get the Ed Sheeran chilled broth. And then there's the Conan. And I was so excited and proud. And then I think I wandered by like a year later. Gone.

50:37Oh, no. And so here's the thing about show business. You're so excited when you start on the way up and then the inevitable fall. Come on. The sandwich disappears. This is the default of the sandwich, not you. No, I'm just saying that I'm excited for us to create these sandwiches and they're going to be at EJ's, right? Luncheonette. And I'm very excited about this and we should each think right now about what we want. But also I'm just telling you kids, as the old veteran, that one day you're going to go by EJ's and you're going to see, oh, you know, there's the Sonom Obsession hummus wrap or whatever.

51:14Why? Oh my God. Does it have to be a hummus? No, like with lamb and - Why? Because you love your native land. My native love? Lamb or land? Either one's fine. But anyway - Oh, come on. No, it's true. And you know, the gourlay mayonnaise sandwich? It's just mayonnaise? It's just mayonnaise. That sounds pretty good. God. But anyway, I'm telling you there's going to be the thrill. But then you're going to wander by and then inevitably it's gone. No. And then you feel the crushing blow. That's you. Because you had a sandwich named after you. That's exciting. It's not going to be there forever. But you're like, oh, is it still there?

51:55It's not. Well, I must be irrelevant then. I should just go die. That's what I said. That's not normal. That's what I exactly said when I saw that they had taken my sandwich away from this midtown establishment. Yeah, but it was there once. Who cares if it's not there anymore? What's wrong with you? It's an honor just to be nom nom nominated. Yeah, I mean, don't be sad it's not there. Be happy it ever happened. I don't know what the saying, what did you just say? Nom nom nominated. I'm sorry. He's been, I can tell when you've been crafting an arrow, Sona and I are jabbering away and you're in the background crafting it.

52:30That one I did sit on for about 10 seconds. Nom, nom, nom. And then you're already upset. Oh, trust me, no. The horribleness of it came through. No, I think that one needed to be run over. Needed to be said. No, but I think you're so dwelling on why it's not there anymore. Let's talk about the positive. What are your sandwiches going to be? What do you want, Gourley? Mine's a hummus wrap. No, no, seriously. What is it? I don't mean to. What do you want it to be? Yeah. What's your, like, what food? When you first said that, I was like, well, obviously a year old.

53:00I know because I see you eating that food all the time. I know because I love it. I'm not profiling you. I'm saying that that's what you really like. When you say it, you are being like, well, Sona's ethnic. So let's put some hummus in there. I say it because I actually do love gyros. They're my favorite thing. I've been watching you eat them for 15 years. I've been watching you eat them for 15 years. And then I'm the one that's bad because I'm pointing out what you already like. I can say it. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Oh, I have to wait till you say the sandwich you eat every day. Yes. Then you said lamb.

53:30Yeah. So what do you want? What do you want to call it? The Sona is going to be what? Specifically. Oh, specifically. I'm not that. Can you guys come back to me? Girls do help? No, you just said it was. It's Sona gyro. Yeah, that's right. But don't call it the Mofsessian gyro because that's hard to pronounce. So just call it the Sona gyro. It's the Sona gyro. Do you want any special ingredients in there besides what's normally in a gyro? I don't want any fucking tomatoes in there. Okay. Yeah, I don't want any tomatoes. Maybe it says underneath the Sona gyro, no fucking tomatoes. Yeah, I think that's the key.

53:55We got it. And what about you, Gourley? I think I'm going to be, because he said burger, but I really love a patty melt, but we'll call it the Maddie Pelt. Okay. That sandwich will... I mean, it just sounds appetizing, right? That will disappear immediately. The same day. Pelt, pelt calls to mind a scalps. I'm going to put scalps in a pelt. I want the beef to have grown a week's amount of mold that just looks like a pelt. Okay. Why not just the Matty Melt? It's the same thing. Yeah, Matty Melt. Just call it Matty Melt. Yeah. Get the Matty Melt. Okay, get the Matty Melt. So what is it? What is on it?

54:36Well, it's a sourd. No, let's go raw. No, sourdough bread with a beef, a thin beef patty. Yep. Like a smash burger patty. Cool. American cheese. and then there's maybe a little Thousand Island we're all listening to you these are the most boring ingredients and you're saying them as if you've come up with the magical way to turn lead into gold behold a thin patty and then no one saw this coming some cheese and just a tiny bit of grilled onions grilled onions Oh, and here's something I'm going to put in there. Thousand Island. And also it should have a little toothpick with an American flag that doesn't include Hawaii in honor of it being like it's the 50s.

55:28Yeah, pre-Alaska and pre-Hawaii. Yes, 48 states flag. I just thought, what if EJ's is a Chinese food restaurant? They're going to get some very confused customers. Okay, I know what I want, and it's very simple, and it's not a bit. I love a corned beef sandwich with coleslaw, Russian dressing. This is the same one that got - I know! But we're going at it again. Oh my God, you're going to get the face of your gun. You know what I want? I want it on a bulky roll. This is the exact same sandwich that I tried before. I think that one also had some turkey. This time I'm just going hardcore. It's corned beef.

56:10It's all corned beef, Russian dressing. I love Russian dressing. Yeah, me too. Oh, I want to change something. I don't want sourdough bread. I want Hawaiian bread for mine because that's what makes it different. And that's what makes it delicious. EJs can't stock Hawaiian bread. I love that one in a 100 ,000 times someone wants your cookie sandwich. And it's going to have the flag with no Hawaii on the flag. Okay. Oh, I see. So I love Hawaiian bread. It's so good. I don't know what Hawaiian bread is. It is good. Oh, it's so good. Yeah. It's all stuck together. It comes in that pack and it's laying flat.

56:42It all stuck together and you pull them apart. and they're like little rolls. Yeah. Okay. Well, EJs, good luck with your final year in business as a restaurant. If you want to enjoy any of these tasty treats, go quickly before this guy wises up and learns. Limited time only. Yes. You've probably only got hours to get to EJ's luncheonette and try and buy these sandwiches. But, sir, it was nice meeting you on the street. Yeah. And please, never try. And you, many businesses have tried to ride the Conan O 'Brien train to big riches, and it never works out. All right. Good luck to you, EJs. Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend.

57:29With Conan O 'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Nick D 'Leal, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco. and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering by Eduardo Perez. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista and Britt Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode.

58:08Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 323-451-2821 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.