The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling

0:13Okay, well, if you're listening to the song Tom Sawyer, you know that you are enjoying the Conan and Jordan show. um this is a show you can't find it anywhere else and uh so far i'm told people love this show it's doing quite well and it's growing it's growing rapidly because people are fascinated with the relationship between conan o 'brien and jordan schlansky uh how long have we been shooting remotes and things together jordan you've worked for me for how many years approximately 30 years okay and uh we started shooting things i don't know like 20 years ago maybe 15 to 20 okay i like that you always give a range it's really not completely relevant i think it is i am educating listen i go anywhere in the world i was just in ireland shooting some stuff for uh max used to be called hbo and then someone said no that name's too cool let's call it max so anyway i was shooting something for them in dublin and uh someone people were coming up to me on the street and saying where's jordan people all over the world know that you and i have this fraught relationship it lives online and now it lives on sirius xm and i couldn't be happier yeah that's fascinating to me international connection is um it's a great coming together of humanity from disparate cultures and communities and this technology that we find ourselves surrounded with allows this to happen.

1:43And really, it just allows for a deeper human connection. Yeah, okay. Well, if we could cut that, I would. But I don't know that we have the money to edit. I'm just going to let it sit there. Just, um... Well, you brought up the subject, so I just expanded on it. Oh, does no need to expand? What if you'd been sitting next to Lincoln when he gave the Gettysburg Address? Four score and seven... I'd just like to point out, of course, that four score and seven years ago, of course, that's a shorthand. He is referring to the Declaration of Independence. And, you know, no, Lincoln didn't need someone to expand.

2:18Well, this is a radio show and I do have a microphone in front of me. So the implication is I'm supposed to speak. I spent half an hour trying to saw that microphone off its stand because I want to do a radio show with you where you don't have a microphone. That's what I would like. Jordan, part of our appeal, if we can call it that, some of the fascination is that people can tell that my irritation with you is real. I see. Do you agree with that? I mean, there is. This is not for me to assess. It's not a bit is what I'm saying. There's no way I could invent this contentious relationship. This is not wrestling.

2:57This is real. You're constantly getting under my skin. You and I have had many issues over the years. for a long time i didn't know what you did on the show okay i'm just being kind because i still don't know right why you're working for me um and you've committed i think some crimes you know you've purchased expensive equipment that you yourself used and you charged it to the show you came in late for a while uh you've traveled the world with me you're a know-it-all you've i've caught you many times saying the wrong thing and you never back down and um here we are after all these years, and I don't feel we've made any progress.

3:37Do you think we're making progress? I didn't know we were attempting to make progress. What exactly was the assignment? I would like us to not fight all the time. Is that possible? Well, I mean, we're two men in an incredibly intimate situation. I think that we explore. What does that mean? You're bringing up a sexual connotation now. Intimacy is not necessarily sexual, although often is. Hey, with me, whenever I'm intimate with someone, it quickly becomes sexual. Well, you're intimate with me. Yeah, and I'm afraid it's going to get sexual very quickly. Okay. I'm already aroused, I'll be honest with you.

4:10Okay. I mean, nothing's happened down there in four years. So this is a huge, huge deal for me. It's like a zombie waking up after a long sleep. Jordan, I would like to get along with you. Okay. Would you like the same thing? I think we do get along. What are you talking about? All we do is bigger. I mean, we're two friends. I don't think we're friends. I'm your boss. you have to understand that there are barriers those are there are barriers well they're not mutually exclusive concepts uh we are friends we are friends yes i pay you okay and i wish you did as i told you to do okay but in yes and if that still means we're friends then yes and i dream of firing you okay but we're still friends are you asking me about these things are you just telling me that you dislike me for real and you dream about terminating my employment do you listen i don't know what kind of response you're looking for okay jordan let me ask you something and be completely honest with the viewers i do have people that say to me oh this must be some kind of bit this must be some kind of thing that they work out we have never worked anything out that is absolutely true well i would like us i'm in a stage in my life god knows if i have much time left.

5:24Um, and I would like to, uh, I'd like to make progress. I'd like to make peace. And I, there are, I don't know, there might be 50 hours online of you and I bickering that circulates the globe at all times. And I would like to stop the cycle if I could, I would like you and I to get along and figure out what is it maybe I'm doing, but mostly what is it you're doing? Okay. Like me, maybe 10 % you 90 % you're like the iceberg on the Titanic really you're the one that's at fault you're the one that tore the side off my ship and now all those women and children men are gonna die but anyway again your iceberg mostly your fault you struck me ended up getting hurt in the process it was dark right it was dark right it was very dark there was no technology yes but you knew it would be dark it's not a surprise that it was dark.

6:21Darkness happens. There's day and there's night. It was a maiden voyage my first time at sea. And I didn't know that the night came on so darkly in the North Atlantic. You, fucking iceberg, you came along and you weren't lying there. You were, of course, everything floats and moves in a current. You came hurtling down from the north and you smashed into me. I was having a good time. Bowen Yang does a wonderful sketch on this where he's the iceberg and claiming it's not his fault. No, it was the iceberg. I disagree with Bowen Yang. I understand from an entitled perspective, you may think you can move through life without worrying about obstacles and just go where you please.

6:57But there are icebergs out there and you do need to navigate them like any other human. Okay. My point is you're large and inanimate. You're frozen to the touch. I'm a mesomorph. I'm medium. What's that? You're large. Why do you say I'm large? I'm tall. Why do you say I'm large? I'm a mesomorph. I'm very average. I'm medium. Okay. Moderate. I've never heard an iceberg speak so insanely about their body type. I think icebergs float around and say I'm a mesomorph. No, they don't. The point I'm trying to make is that I have drifted through my career peacefully with little friction. I'm a high-class operation, beautifully built ship, and then this lunky piece of ice slammed into me and ruined everything.

7:43So let's fix this. Are you ready to fix it? Sure. I am. Now, I'd like to introduce Frank Smiley. Hello. Who's the producer of the Conan and Jordan show. I have to keep looking to make sure that that's actually the name. I'm glad my name is first. Right. Well, this is a very special episode. It feels special. Something's going on here. Right. By the way, I don't know what's going on. No, no. And you know what I love? You never know what's going on. Yes. We're sitting in different positions. There's like a hubbub going on. And I don't know why. Well, I'll tell you why. Because today we have two guests, the Gottmans, Dr.

8:19Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman. They are the co-founders of the Gottman Institute in Washington, and they're here to help you. What they are is world-renowned psychologists, and they work on marriage stability and divorce predictions, and they're really good at this. They know how to deal with people who have conflicts. Yes. And they know how to help them with their conflicts. They also, I'll mention it now, probably mention it again as a plug. This has nothing to do with what we're doing, but it actually has everything to do with what we're doing. They have a book called Fight Right.

8:53They are such experts. They've written a book. It's all about how to fight correctly. And these are experts. I mean, these might be the two foremost authorities on fighting conflict resolution partners. You and I are partners. We didn't ask to be, but we've been thrust together into this situation. And I think there's a good chance the Gottmans. Do you agree, Frank? The Gottmans, if anyone can help us, it's the Gottmans. It's the Gottmans, for sure. So let's bring them in. Let's bring them in. Okay. Oh, here they come. Here they come. Oh, hello there. Hello. How are you? Do I call you Julie? You do call me.

9:39Dr. Julie and Dr. Hey, Jordan. Doctor. Pleasure. John. I'd stand, but I met you already and my legs don't work. And that's enough. One standing for you guys was enough. Do I call you Dr. Julie, Dr. John? What do you like? John Julie. Okay. All right. Well, listen, let me start by saying I don't respect what we do in this studio. And so when people like yourselves who are real professionals take time in to come in and help us, it's a blessing. Yes. It's really nice. And I'll say that I've never met you two before, but you have the air of incredibly kind people. There's something, there's a vibe that you two have that makes me feel like I've known you for years.

10:19I did not get that. I did not get that. I saw them shoot kindness towards you and what I received was a hostility and mixed with indifference. let me start by saying thank you very much Drs. Gottman for being here you really do know your stuff and it's thrilling to be in the room with you because I'm sitting here with my friend Jordan and I'd like to start by saying how aware are you of my relationship with Jordan Slansky have you viewed any of the footage yeah we both yeah we have viewed the footage we see the problems in the relationship. We saw that within about three and a half minutes. And it was obvious that both of you guys were uncomfortable, really uncomfortable.

11:08And it just kept getting worse. Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing we want to offer are these two pulse oximeters for you to put on. Wait a minute. What are you talking about? What are you talking about here? This gentleman, John, just held up two strange devices. I don't know if those are legal. I don't know if they're sexual in nature. They won't shock you. Okay. They won't stimulate you. Oh. They record your heart rate. That's what I said to my wife on our wedding night. This will not shock you or stimulate you. Sorry, that's terrible. Oh, this is cool. Put it on. I've put this pulsometer on my...

11:46Pulse oximeter. Pulse oximeter is now putting it on. I'm sorry, pulse oximeter. Right. And tell us what a pulse oximeter does. So it's looking at your blood. It's measuring heart rate, and it's also measuring the percent of oxygen in your blood. Yeah. And it's set at an alarm, and the alarm is if your percent oxygen goes below 95 % or your heart rate goes above 100 beats a minute, that's around when we start secreting our two stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline. Cortisol and adrenaline. And so, there'll be… He's still going. It beeps, but it gives an alarm. I'm sorry. Why is yours going off right away?

12:31Let's see the numbers. What are the numbers? 99 and 130. Yep. What does that mean? Well, can I point out quickly, we're not sure he's from Earth. We don't know. He may have six Vulcan hearts. It's funny. He does look like he comes from Earth. So what that means is that your heart rate is so high that you're extremely uncomfortable. You're in a little bit of fight or flight right now. Just right now. This is fantastic. Sitting. Hold this. Fascinating. Don't hide it. Yeah. Don't hide it. You are. You set off that alarm immediately and you're sitting in a chair. Look, I don't know how this has been calibrated.

13:11I can't verify its accuracy. It has. It has. Okay. I accept that. What it tells us, see, you guys have already had an interaction, right? Yeah. You just had interaction. And you sat, you took it in. It was critical. It put you down a lot. You might have to take that off. We should take that off for a second because I think listeners listening right now will go insane. So take yours off just for a moment and for it to allow it to recalibrate. Yep. So basically when your heart rate goes over 100 beats a minute, it means you feel attacked. That's what it means. And your body is reacting as you would if you were facing a saber-toothed tiger.

13:53I see. Heart rate goes up. So, you know what would be good to do, guys, is if we could just watch you for, you know, five minutes or something, just talk about a problem you guys haven't solved, whatever it is. We'll just watch and see where we might be able to shift things a little bit. Oh, I understand. Does that sound okay? That sounds fantastic. I'm watching. My heart rate is now 93. It's plummeting. It says here I'm having a small stroke. I'm glad you guys laughed. So these are evolutionary responses designed to protect us against a threat, against a large prehistoric animal that may be attacking us.

14:39our body reacts in a way that will really ensure our survival. And my reaction to this animal is, in the end, to benefit my own survival. Jordan, can I point out something? Human beings are pack animals. Yes. We need each other. We depend on each other. And in fact, we can't survive unless we have connection. and you know it's interesting um wait conan oh i'm sorry i'm sorry wait wait wait wait and the fact that this relationship is not a healthy connection it's it doesn't feel good to you and that's getting highlighted a little bit up close to her well the problem arises when it becomes non-adaptive which means that it's a chronic elevation i see if it's there all the time, then it kind of spirals down.

15:37I understand. And neither one of you then can really ask one another for what you really need. Right. And that's part of what we want to help you do. Now, here's where it gets tricky because you said, I need to ask Jordan for what I really need. But what if what I really need is for him to shut up? Okay. So what you're saying is that that's not a personal need. What that is, is trying to control his interaction with you. Yes. That's what I want to do. Okay. So flip it on its head. I'd love to. I'd love to flip him upside down. Okay. That's probably not something Jordan would really enjoy. Oh, I hadn't thought of that.

16:19Yeah. And so try saying how he could shine for you. what could he do right for you very good you could work for someone else in a different profession maybe in i think in a different city um that's something that might make me happy okay so let's pause a minute so what's it like for you when you hear him say that well i don't feel like it accurately reflects my work performance i think i bring value to my employment. I think I bring value to your life as a friend and compatriot. I think, I'd like to think, I'd like to think that your life is of a better quality for having known me. Maybe that is arrogant in some fashion, but I'd like to think we have a mutually respectful relationship.

17:13I certainly respect you. You're an extraordinary man. But can I say something I'd like to just bring up, just for the record, oh i'm i'm sorry what was it like for you to hear him say i certainly respect you do you believe him

17:30did you guys watch the oj trial a little bit yeah i remember thinking is that the parallel yeah i think he's a murderer uh and um i i'm not sure i buy what he's selling uh do you respect me because and now here's what i'm gonna say there's tons of footage of him criticizing my skin the shape of my face he sometimes more than implies that i've put on a little weight that i he calls me uh i think he's referred to me as the beast and the monster um you're presenting this information with no context now now what is the proper context for that let's be let's be realistic okay we've known each other for decades and we work in a very intimate environment many hours we've been through tough times and good times seeing each other grow i've been there for each other through thick and thin um i've seen emotional damage i've seen physical damage uh i what are you talking about well i've seen uh injury i've seen you uh concussed Yeah, yes.

18:38I've seen you in your lowest emotional state and your highest emotional state. Often within a one hour period. Yeah. And and with that intimacy, with that intimacy, because we are human beings and this is not a robotic interaction. Only an alien keeps saying I'm a human being and not a robot. Most human beings just what I'm saying is there are going to be ups and downs. Yes, of course, I respect you. And I think you're a great man. are you without injury to me have there been injurious experiences of course there have and i accept that as part of the human experience we can speak of them if you like jordan went into great detail once doctors about how he thought that i was in great shape because he reviews all the footage and then um wow my monitor is going up now and then he said that there was a period of time like a two-year period where he thought i gained weight and i uh he said it sickened me to look at you during that period of time.

19:34Did you not say that? Well, listen, again, we have to present proper context. Of course, I'm concerned about your health and your longevity, both from a practical financial standpoint and also a human relationship standpoint. If I see you partaking in unhealthy behavior, I'd like to think we're at a stage where I can mention it to you respectfully. You said there were periods in the late night show when you thought I gained weight, probably in the early 2000s. Have you got the date? Yeah, it started at the end of 2001. It was right after 2003. You know what happened is I got married and I was very happy after years and years of trying to find the right partner.

20:14I gave up and married this woman. No, kidding. I found my wife very happy. And she was cooking me all this great food. And yeah, I probably put on a little weight. My face got a little round. I started to resemble Ted Kennedy in the late 80s. And yeah, and Jordan was quite, I see it now. You have to take that thing off. It's just going crazy. You're like a, it's like a smoke alarm in the Towering Inferno. You just need to take that off. But he, I see now because of your help that you were, as a friend, I think, rather than just making fun of me, you were telling me as a friend And something that no one else, Jeff Ross, isn't going to say you gained a little weight.

21:05And Paula Davis isn't going to say that. They're all yes people. You know, they just, whatever's good, you know. But you, you were trying to tell me the truth. Do you respect that? I do. Yeah. So you really appreciate that honesty. I wish he hadn't said the word grotesque. I think. And he called me the beast and the monster. That's a bad way to express concern. Thank you, John. I can't confirm that I used that word, but I have no reason to doubt you. Oh, it stuck in my mind quite clearly. When I called you the beast, was I referring to your physical condition or was I referring to maybe an emotional attack that you performed on me?

21:49So, pause for a minute. Yes. Pause for a minute. Yes, doctor. Okay. So what I see is you guys slinging insults back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. There was one little piece of appreciation from you, one from you. You appreciated his honesty. You said you respected him. So how does it feel to hear appreciation versus insult? And be honest about it. How does it actually feel? Do you take it in when you hear that appreciation? well i'm going to speak purely as professional it's not as funny when we're being really mean to each other people are laughing right right when i'm hearing jordan and appreciating him and he's telling me he respects me uh i just see an empty audience uh and i panic you know i'm not sure that's true because people love you and when they see there's no there's actually there's no data on that.

22:53Yeah, I think there's a lot of data on that. Well, we've looked for it. How many followers do you guys have? I don't even know anymore. Well, if you prefer to speak about injurious behavior, we can. You've clearly brought up something that bothers you, this comment that I allegedly made. And I think this is important to review some of the more toxic areas. Okay. I'm going to say that you have made fun of the way I sometimes don't get all the hairs on my neck shaved. Yeah, you know, I'm noticing right now on the right corner of your mouth, how does, I just want, I'm curious above all, scientifically speaking, you two are doctors.

23:28Doctor comes from the Latin docere or in the ecclesiastical pronunciation docere. It actually means to teach, which is perfectly suited to you too. I'm just curious scientifically, how does it happen? Like you have a mirror, you're shaving, how do you miss such large chunks of hair on the corners of your mouth? And I'm not trying to insult you. I know conventionally speaking, it sounds like I am. I'm really, as a scientist, how does it happen? I'm just very curious. uh i do things quickly i'm always in a rush very type a i take quick swipes with the razor also i now uh predominantly you know work in uh radio the uh the the lenses here aren't that exact my wife uh you know doesn't get to see me up close too much she's grown very distant uh that's not true i just threw it in there to see if i can pique your attention uh but i don't think she's getting a good look at my face anymore she saw it she liked it in you know 1999 it was enough it was enough thank you thank you john it was more than enough and so that's why uh i he is very much into manscaping he likes a stop stop don't describe him describe you so you were doing a beautiful job.

24:50Perfect, perfect, perfect answer. You didn't go defensive. You didn't go counterattacking. You described you. And that is really, really, really important in terms of having a decent relationship. You don't describe the other person. I see. Because every time you guys do, for the most part, it turns into either criticism or contempt. And contempt is sulfuric, acid for a relationship. It's when you're criticizing from on high. Being superior fails. What else is it? Not only that for contempt, but it also predicts how many infectious illnesses the listener is going to have in the next four years.

25:39The times of contempt in 15 minutes. Are you saying that I could make Jordan sick by putting him down? Yes. Well, this is fantastic. Thank you. Giving you a weapon? You just handed, yes. You are such a rascal. Well, I am. That's the nicest way to put it. Well, the problem is that the person who's contemptuous, that person's immune system also degrades over time. Right. So by holding contempt for Jordan, I'm also damaging my own immune system. I'm lowering its ability to fight infection. So this is, I mean - It's self-defeating. This is bad for both of us, Jordan. Can I respectfully ask, which I think is constructive, if I notice large patches of unshaved hair on your face, would you prefer if I remain silent and don't bring it to your attention?

26:37Like if you walk in and you just have a huge patch of hair maybe on your head. Adam's apple. for example you prefer that i note it internally well first of all but remain silent you're implying that the hair is growing out so much i'm just simply asking you're implying the hair is growing out so much i could braid it i have i have i have a wild growth and in a very specific area i am can i just say one thing profile area i am a i am a very masculine man and i'm i i know you're going to stop me in a second say this isn't relevant conan but i would like to say in my own defense. I am, for a man my age, I think pulsating with testosterone, I pump out a lot of facial hair very quickly.

27:21I think sometimes that's not my fault. And for you to attack me for being one of the most masculine men you know is, I think, probably unfair. Okay. He wants you to be quiet about it. Okay. I will be quiet. I will note it to myself. I will not mention it to anyone else, nor you. Well, you also tend to mention it when there are cameras and microphones around. Wouldn't it be fair to approach me quietly and say, Conan, you have a long tuft. It looks like a ponytail coming out of four pores to the right of your Adam's apple. And I will take care. I'll seek out the proper authority. So you prefer I pull you aside, maybe before taping.

28:01And bring to your attention your errors, your shaving errors in private. okay pause yes put down oh okay okay so shaving errors i mean it's objectively well i don't assume his intention was to miss the hair so i consider it an objective can you read his mind i cannot he may have intentionally wanted to leave that disgusting stuff of hair on his example right yes i don't know why does it matter to you why does it matter what do you care certainly doesn't matter. But I think when there's an elephant in the room, when a man walks in who's 95 % shaved and there's just hair jetting out of his cheek, I just think it's worth mentioning.

28:48I don't mean any insult. I don't mean any insult. It's easily fixable. It's not a slight on your carrot. We all make mistakes. I make mistakes. They're not related to large tufts of hair on my face but but i just think that it's as human beings we have to acknowledge something so painfully obvious that would somehow miss with all your technology mirrors you have lighting in your bathroom but i i'll do as you say and pull you aside and let you know i love that you refer to light and the mirror as technology

29:28uh jordan um my personal appearance is one of the things that we have trouble with another thing that we have difficulty with is that jordan loves to expand as he did on the phrase doctors i find that insulting because you're both doctors you're both highly educated you're very successful highly intelligent people and then this guy is telling you the latin root what it comes from and what it means everywhere we go i love it me too you like it yeah we're always learning he taught us something here's the one thing i'm going to say julie okay if it's okay he's often wrong the information he told you i would look it up because there's a 75 chance he's wrong he has held forth and expounded on where karate kid 2 was filmed wrong uh you know the origins of pizza what you're allowed to drink with pizza he said you don't drink wine with pizza if you're doing it correctly we were he was corrected uh you know in italy by the people making the pizza that, yes, you drink wine with pizza.

30:36He's constantly, you're wrong. These are your insults that I didn't know where the Karate Kid 2 was filmed. Oh man, that was humiliating. Right. And Ralph Macchio, who played the Karate Kid. Ralph Macchio. It's Macchio. In fact, the CH makes a hard C sound like Pinocchio. Pause, pause, pause, pause. So when you correct him, that's contempt. I see. I know more than you do. Let me tell you how it's right. Yes. I imagine a world where one can share information, where human beings can increase their collective intellect by sharing information. I've learned some things. You've learned some things. You tell me what you know.

31:17I'll tell you what I know. So so you may not know that the C-H is pronounced with the heart. And that's understandable. I wouldn't expect it to. Italian is not your first language. But unlike you and you certainly know things that I don't know. presidential history, for example. And we can share with each other and we can both come out smarter and more knowledgeable for it. I don't see the contempt. Yes. Can I point out something? You only want to share knowledge when the other person wants to hear it. If you share it when the other person is talking about something else and you correct their grammar, you correct their pronunciation, you're interrupting what they're trying to say and being superior because you know better and commenting on it.