The Freedom Reader

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1:18conan o 'brien needs a fan want to talk to conan visit teamcoco.com slash call conan okay let's get started hey reginald welcome to conan o 'brien needs a fan hey how's it going hey reginald how are you i'm i'm delightful man i'm doing i'm doing great honestly yeah I have been reading your bio, your story, your Marvel origin story, Reginald, and it's fascinating. It's amazing. Thank you. It doesn't rival yours. I mean, yours is amazing. Mine is just, I'm just trying to make it that way. No, yours is better. Yeah, honestly. I'm sorry, Reginald. Reginald, I love to toot my own horn, but no, you had me beat by a country mile.

2:04So you just have an amazing story. You have a law degree from Yale Law School, which is insanely impressive. And you have an MFA in poetry. And here's what's those are incredibly impressive accomplishments. And then you add to it that when you were 16, you participated in a carjacking and went to prison for eight and a half years. yeah that was not as impressive that was the bane of my existence but i think you live and learn and for me you know picking up a gun was the most crazy volatile violent thing i've ever done in my life yep and um and nobody tells you that you could do something at 16 that'll change your life forever you know as many teachers that used to sell me you know i i would end up in jail or i could end up in dead because i went i lived in a bad neighborhood so to speak right um i didn't didn't really understand that I could change my life forever.

3:06And I did. I changed my life forever. So that's the kind of devastating thing about it is recognizing that I changed my life forever. Well, there's so much to, people like to say, unpack here. There's so much to talk about. you as far as I know you spent a lot of time in solitary when you were in prison and while you're in solitary you discovered books is that correct yeah I did I did two years off and on in solitary but the thing that's really remarkable is I'm 18 years old 17 years old I'm in a hole and they took all of your books from me. And the thing is 24 hours in a cell with just four walls, not as beautifully decorated as the walls around me.

3:57I'm going to say, that's some impressive artwork around you. And I was unraveling and I heard a guy call out for a book and I realized that these dudes had created an underground library for themselves. And all you had to do was call out for a book and they would sing you one. And so I said, send me a book. And they sent me this anthology called The Black Poets. And that introduced me to Robert Hayden, Lucille Clifton, Sonia Sanchez, Langston Hughes, Sterling Brown, Etheridge Knight. And I'm reading these words and I realized that these poets were able to capture an entire life in 14 lines. And I remember buying two books.

4:36This is the first books I bought with my money. It was a Sonia Sanchez book called Under a Soprano Sky and was Sun Tzu's The Art of War. Now, I was trying to survive prison. I was 5 '5 and 120 pounds. Oh, my God. Of those two books, I read Sonia Sanchez's book 100 times. And I never finished reading The Art of War. Yeah. Because I learned the real way to survive prison ended up being love. It ended up being the exact antithesis of what had gotten most of us in prison, because I think the antithesis of love is violence. And so it was Sonia Sanchez's Undisciplinar Sky that became a part of the pathway of me learning to love myself, but also in learning to love myself, me learning to understand that we had did horrendous things to land ourselves in prison, but that we could be more than those things.

5:31and I've spent my entire life since then trying to prove that to be true. I'm curious, had you been at all interested or intrigued by books or even the idea of getting around to books before you went to prison? You know, the last book that I read, so my local library said, Mr. Betts, we understand you're still in prison, but we need you to return this book that you checked out. And it was the Evelyn Woods, but you wouldn't believe what book it was. It was the Evelyn Woods Guide to Speed Reading. See, I've always been obsessed with infomercials, right? And they would have those infomercials on how to speed read.

6:14And I was just like, my mom wouldn't let me. She didn't believe that this guy could read a thousand words a minute. When he was flipping the pages, my mom said, he's just flipping the pages. I said, no, he's reading. Listen to this. And so I went to the library and I found that Evelyn Woods book and I checked it out. And I still remember the tips that was in it. So I've always been fascinated with reading. I've always wanted to be a reader. My mom refused to let anybody tell me that hardback books came out first so that she could keep giving me the old paperback books of books I hadn't read yet as if they were new.

6:49She would be like, Walter Moses' new book just came out. Book came out three years ago. And so what prison did was like, honestly, the judge said to me, I'm under no illusion that sending you to prison will help. But you can get something out of it if you try to. Right. And I never forgot what he told me. And I just had to lean into what I cared about. And I asked myself, what will you be when you leave prison? I mean, you 16 now. What are you going to train yourself to be while in here? And I told myself I would be a writer because the only thing that I could name myself as loving in that way outside of my mom was books.

7:28And I needed to love something that I believe might save me. And so I decided to lean into the love of books. That's a, I mean, it's, it's kind of stunning to me that you wouldn't encourage people to read who are incarcerated. And, you know, supposedly the concept behind the penal system is for people to better themselves and reform and grow. And so I'm amazed that books are denied to people in solitary. And that's a new concept to me because I would think you want people to read. You want people to build their minds. and the fact that you had to kind of do it secretly is kind of surprising to me.

8:19Yeah, but to the credit of the Department of Corrections around this country, I think that they've improved and changed a lot. Yep. My biggest supporters are the Department of Corrections. Our first Freedom Library was in Angola. One A and one B, Angola and MCI Norfolk where Malcolm X did time. And you got to understand that there's work that we've done, open at 600 libraries across the country, prisons in 14, 15 states, about 50 different prisons. That doesn't happen without the Department of Corrections and the senior leadership in the Department of Corrections and the line CEOs, CEOs, all saying we believe in books.

9:00We believe in literature and we, I mean, we bring a hundred pound bookcases and put them in sale blocks that have never had anything but plastic and metal and steel. We bring 500 brand new books into the lives of people who many of whom have never seen a brand new book, have never smelled a brand new book. I mean, you know, it's about work that I do, but with all due respect, it's like the most humbling, you know, awe-inspiring thing I've been a part of. Because to be a part of it is to literally watch how an invention that dates back hundreds of years, the Gutenberg printing press, actually is still the conduit for people to have access to the world.

9:43If we first imagine a printing press would get them access to it. Yeah, yeah. It is cool. Well, I mean, it's beyond cool. I want to make sure I stress this. You get out of prison, you go to Yale Law School, and you have founded something called Freedom Reads. It's an organization that gives incarcerated people access to books. And you guys have, as you said, opened somewhere around 500 libraries across about 45 prisons in 14 states. and this is going to have an enormous impact. I'm sure it already has, but I do think that exposing people to books and giving them the chance to better themselves and find actually the love, it's not like eating your spinach, the love of books and the possibilities opened by books, that's a massive thing that you've done.

10:38It's huge. I know you're a humble person, But it's incredible. You had this great misfortune when you were 16 years old and you've, you know, you've you've it's just a massive contribution you've made. I cannot tell you how impressed I am by what you've done. I appreciate that. And, you know, we have seven, eight people to work for us out of our team of 22 serve time in prison anywhere from 18 months to 30 years. And for each of us, you know, books played a profound role in us reshaping our lives. And so I love the fact that I feel like it's remember, I got a bald head, but you remember I'm not just a client.

11:24I'm not just a president. I'm a client, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The hair club for men. Cy Sperling. Cy Sperling would end his commercials. It was a spray, I think, that you could put on your bald spot. He would say, I'm not just a satisfied, you know, I'm not just the president. I'm a client. And then he would reveal. yeah this is like i feel like i just want i carry books around with me everywhere to be like we i just don't talk about this i got a book in my bag you know we tell people that we keep books because um books are the talisman that would have kept us safe when we chose to pick up yeah books were the talisman that would have kept us safe instead of the tips that caused more harm Yeah.

12:04The, um, did you know when you were getting out of, did you have a plan when your sentence is coming to an end? Did you have a clear goal then? I am going to get this higher education. Uh, or was it something that unfolded gradually after you got out? No, I mean, I was just talking to somebody a few minutes ago about ADHD. and one of the real blessings in my life is that I have horrible ADHD, which means I've never had a plan in my life. And the reality is you go to prison at 16, if you're a person that operates on a plan, you might have a hard time. I have literally never had a plan. I've kind of just moved through this world with a hope and a desire to be better than I was when I committed that crime and a curiosity and an openness.

12:53And so I ended up in law school because I was struggling and get jobs that would support me. And I ended up representing friends of mine. And I got five people out of prison that I did time with because once I went to law school, they were like, well, Dwayne, you're a lawyer. Can you help with my case? I started Freedom Reads because a friend and a supporter who also works for the Mellon Foundation had asked me, what would I do for people in prison if money wasn't an issue? And I said, we put millions of people in prison. I will put a million books in prison. And she said, how? And I said, one library at a time.

13:28And with that phrase, I started making up Freedom Reads. I started making up the organization that's had a profound change in my life. This is the first job that I've had since 2006, because I've essentially been a student and an independent writer and performer from 2006 until now. And now I run an organization with a multimillion dollar budget, 20 people that work under me. I mean, it's been amazing, but I would be lying to you if I pretended like this was a part of a plan. I think the only plan I've had was trust. That's well said. Yeah. I mean, that, but that's true of, that's true of a lot of people.

14:10I know it's true in my case. I can't say I had a plan. I just kind of followed my passion and, and it was always news to me. Like I didn't know where it was gonna lead. I didn't know where I was gonna go. I'm sure I took a lot of missteps along the way, but you, you know, I think that's a good message to get out there is that it's not people saying, okay, this is exactly what I'm gonna do and here are the steps. There's a jazz quality to it where you're just playing what you feel. And if you trust and you're leading with that kind of positive energy and you marry it to a work ethic, things happen.

14:52And you're proof of that. It's amazing. Absolutely amazing. Thank you.

15:04Well, Father's Day is coming up. Hint, hint. June 21st. We're not your children. What? My children are not getting me anything. So it's up to you guys to get me Father's Day. They have never bought into Father's Day, but you guys are going to. You're my employees and you have to. Well, guess what? Luckily, Macy's has a wide range of options, the expertise to help you find the perfect gift. Macy's is the answer for Father's Day. David, as my sort of surrogate son, the son that I hired to buy me things, Exactly. I hope that you're prepared for this Father's Day, and I hope you've consulted Macy's.

15:47Oh, I sure I have done both of those things. First. Oh, there you go. You love a pun. We got you a shirt that says The Grillfather. I love that shirt because you know what? I love the Godfather movies, and I love grilling, and they've combined them with The Grillfather. And are you ready to combine it even more? Let's see the next gift. Ooh. A ninja indoor grill. That looks really good. It does. And then, you know, sometimes when you're grilling, You know, you might want to get rid of that scent, that smell. So we got you some Dior cologne. Oh, is that Sauvage? It's Sauvage. Oh, my God. I love Sauvage.

16:19And I love that it does mask the scent of charred meat really well. Yeah. So happy Father's Day from us and Macy's. You know what? I want to say thank you. Those are cool gifts. I love it. Check out Macy's online gift guide for more ideas at macy's.com slash gift guide.

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18:39So much I'm looking forward to this summer. Me too. You know what I'm talking about? First of all, July 4th is going to be the 250th anniversary of the United States of America. That's a big deal. And just as important, some pretty big soccer games headed our way. Sport. I don't want to get too specific, but let's say some pretty big soccer games are coming our way. On a global scale. On a global scale, that's all we'll say. So much to celebrate this summer, so you got to keep a classic with Miller Lite. Miller Lite has been a true American pilsner and the original Lite beer since 1975. Were you even alive, Madden, summer?

19:12No, I was not. Yeah, I think that's good because you couldn't handle the beginning of the Miller Lite era. No. It's too iconic. Okay. Here's my summer, okay? Yeah. Hang with my buddies. Yeah. Hey, this is a really good iconic soccer game that's happening that unifies all the different nations of the world. What is it? I don't have time to tell you, but let's have some Miller Lite. Clean, finished, refreshing, easy to drink. And when it's hot outside, nothing feels better going down than an icy, cool Miller Lite. It's an all-American summer and it starts with all-American beer, Miller Lite. Go to MillerLite.com slash Conan to find delivery options near you.

19:49Or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. Miller Times, celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs for 12 ounces.

20:04You talk about the smell of new books. I've been kicked out of bookstores because I just go and smell them. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like you open them and smell them? I open them and I... Or you're just standing by the bookshelf sniffing the books? No, I open them and I smell them. Okay. And I guess it's a perversion. Are people holding them? Only if you don't buy the bookstore. As long as you buy a couple of the books, the people at the bookstore, they'd be delighted. You know, you just gotta buy two or three. You know, I'm gonna tell you something, Reginald. I'm a sniff and runner. I get a good deep sniff and then I run and I'm wearing a raincoat when I do it.

20:51The Sniff and Sprint. Yeah, yeah. Sniff and Sprint. Yeah, and there's my pictures up in a lot of bookstores around the country. They'd be like, yo, they'd be like, who was in the section with the books, with the Reader's Digest from the early 20th century? Oh, that's Conan's favorite section. Oh, Conan's. Have you seen this man? Hey, it's 100 degrees out and it's a sunny day. Why are you wearing a raincoat? That's my business. look Reginald I'm a creep and you knew that when you contacted us so this is on this is all on you but I also think that you know a lot of us have bad make bad mistakes when we're around 16 years old we don't have I wouldn't have had access to any you know I wouldn't have known where to get a gun or but so there's a you know, I, I, there's a quality to some of it, which is like, yeah, mistakes.

21:56Usually people make mistakes, bad mistakes when they're in those teenage years, that's when they do it. And then, um, you know, I'm very aware that I was incredibly fortunate to be in a situation where, um, my bad impulses couldn't get much worse because I'm living in a, in a very stable kind of environment. Do you know what I mean? And I wouldn't have known where to get a gun, frankly. And I used to ask people, how do I get a gun? You know, I did. Why? My sons. Yeah. Because, you know, it makes you cool. Somebody asked me once. And I said yes. I had no idea. Reginald, I'm going to disagree with you.

22:36Me with a gun does not look cool. I don't think it would do that to you. I really don't. I look like a frightened old woman who found a gun and was wondering where to return it. The crazy thing about it, though, is I deeply believe that. So even as a kid, I really had no access to guns. I could pretend that I did, but I didn't. And then this one day I did. But I think about my son's life, and they have never seen a fight before. So some of it, I think about how radically different the life that I've been able to provide for my sons have been because they haven't seen the kind of violence that my childhood was steeped in.

23:12Even if I didn't grow up in a worse neighborhood. I didn't grow up in a worse neighborhood, but I got beat up more. I got beat up, you know, at least 15 times. How many fingers do we have? Fingers and toes. I was, you know, I spent my childhood on the ropes. You know what I mean? They used to call me glass joke. That's, that's a joke. See, Conan got me trying to be a comedian now because this is the first time that I've been around somebody truly funny. But wait, so where did you grow up? Where, where, where did you grow up? Right outside of DC in PG County, Maryland. Yeah. Okay. Which had the benefit of the nation's capital, and you could see everything.

23:48And my mom had a great government job, but it also had the poverty and the sense of being a black belt, and being right outside of the center of everything, but literally right outside of the center of it. I was the first person in my family to go to college and the first person to graduate from prison. And that's not supposed to be a potential reality of somebody growing up in the 80s and the 90s. That's not supposed to be the landscape of what it means to, you know, be an American citizen. But it literally was my perspective. Yeah. What do you credit? Because there have been many people, obviously, that have been in your situation and not had this spectacular turnaround.

24:35background who do you credit or what do you credit this ability to turn this massive negative into a positive and to as you sort of say pursue love and understanding and acceptance where did that come from i'm gonna go ahead and credit my mom and i'm gonna credit my mom for two reasons Because first, you know, on the front end, she forgave me. And she didn't make me beat myself up. She just accepted that I was better than that. And she had to accept it on faith. You know, she had to really believe that I was better than the crime that I committed. And convey that to me in such a way that I could believe that I was better.

25:21And so I credit my mom. And then she put money behind her belief. I took a paralegal course in prison. She paid for it. You know, I was buying those books in prison. She sent me the money for it. So I'll credit that. And I will also credit, you know, like every time somebody was honest with me. The judge was honest with me. He told me, I'm under no illusion that sending you to prison will help. But you can't get something out of it. And it was it was a challenge as well as just being a statement that like you 16 and everybody else is going to tell you how little power you have, how small you are, how violent prison is.

25:55I'm going to tell you, you can get something out of it if you want. And I think that I've always had this attitude once I went to prison and felt like I was, I have sank to rock bottom that I could be who I say I am. And I have just sort of committed myself and dedicated myself in a single way to doing that. And then I also say the last thing is that because I spent so much time in prison, I was able to become an auto D-DAC. I was able to pursue and chase my interests. And I was able to learn a lot about things that I thought were completely unrelated until they became related. Who would have known me maneuvering around the Department of Corrections and around COs and around wardens would be the skillset that I needed 20 years later when I'm starting an organization that demands that I not look at COs and wardens as my enemies.