Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook of The Rest Is History Podcast

26:32I think almost without exception. Yes. Well, I think back then your average person was grabbing someone who walked by their house and thrusting them over a large sharpened stick, you know, and impaling them. There's quite a lot of that going on. Yeah. I think that the further back in time you go, the harder it is to relate to people because they are so different. And I think of someone like Alexander or Julius Caesar, they are terrifying because they move to kind of moral rhythms that are very, very strange and remote to us. So I can't kind of love any of them or admire them. So I think it has to be kind of more recent because then you can understand them.

27:15Well, my all-time favorite is Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln, because he's the one figure that is more impressive the more I learn about him. The more I think he's, I think he might be one of our greatest authors, also one of our greatest humanitarians and an incredible statesman and funny. And what's your take on his wife? Yeah. Because we had a disagreement about this. We got into trouble. I got into trouble. Where did you get into trouble? Saying she was a monster. I don't think that's right. I was sticking up for her. I think that's too simple. I think it's too simple to say she's a monster. I think she was unwell.

27:53Listen and learn. I'm literally never coming on this. Listen and learn. Well, you weren't coming again anyway. You said that before we even started. I'll do this once. My people tell me I have to do it. Right, exactly. I didn't realize you were listening to that conversation. Let's hear about why Mary Lincoln is not a monster, Dominic. She is crucial, I think, to Lincoln's rise. She comes from a connected family. She's very ambitious on his behalf. My wife, who's also a massive fan of both you gentlemen, massive fan and regular listener, she did a great podcast called Significant Others. And she talked about Mary Lincoln and Abraham Lincoln and talked about the complexities of what's good about Mary Lincoln.

28:42But her podcast and the research was that she did a lot for him. She was very ambitious on his behalf. In some ways, she was a good partner. She was highly flawed. but I think to dismiss her as a monster isn't fair. Did she not, though, steal all the spoons from the White House when she left? Who hasn't done that? I've never done that. I've been to the White House three times. Did you steal the spoons? How many did you steal? I stole a flat-screen television. I mean, spoons. I don't need a fucking spoon. Mary Lincoln didn't do that. Who needs a spoon? If you're going to go, go big, I said. So, yeah, I...

29:16Yeah, but she stole something like 6 ,000 spoons or whatever. Oh, come on. Get over it. And nothing, you know? Go on. What did Margaret Thatcher take when she left power? I do have a question. I do have a question. This is a serious question that has confused me somewhat over time. I sometimes have a take on a British figure that's completely out of step with what British people think of that figure. So like who? Well, Margaret Thatcher's one because I feel that you almost can't. I've been in circles where you almost can't bring her up. Oh, yeah. And she has been cancelled. And I've seen books of great women in history.

29:58And Margaret Thatcher isn't even in there. And she's this highly significant person. And I understand that there's complexities there. And there are things that she did. But interesting to me that she isn't held in more esteem. Dominic has written a 7 ,000-page book on her. Yeah. I didn't know that. He's absolutely the man to take this on. Do you think, am I correct that I've been around Brits and I've said, what do you guys prefer, Brits, Limeys? What do you like? I think with Limeys. Yeah, Englishmen. Officers and gentlemen. Okay. Admiral? Yeah. That kind of thing. Just sir. Lord Commander? Just sir is fine.

30:42Yeah, okay, sir. Lord Admiral. Your Highnesses, I have noticed that you have to have her as part of the conversation, and it's as if she didn't exist, and that doesn't feel right to me. Am I correct about that? I think kind of liberal opinion, for want of a better word, a better phrase, still holds her in very low regard because she was a right-of-center politician. A lot of people suffered under the Thatcher government because of de-ingestralization. She was a very, very strident and partisan politician. You know, you were one of hers or you were one of the opposition. And she drew the battle lines very clearly.

31:25So it's understandable why people hate her, right? I completely get that. I mean, I'm sure Tom would probably agree with me on this. She's an incredibly impressive person. So if you look at photographs of her government, She's often in the room with 40 men, and she's the only woman. And she's made her own way. She's fought her way up the ladder. She's incredibly well prepared because she thinks she has to work harder than any man because she thinks she'll be dismissed at any moment. And she feels she has to become harder than hard to prove that she's not a soft and sensitive woman, all of which maybe makes her quite unlikable.

31:57I think she probably wouldn't have got on with us because she had very little sense of humor. and she was a hard company, difficult company. But she is, I mean, certainly compared with Britain's recent prime ministers. So that I think, I think that there's a kind of kaleidoscopic quality to people's reputations in history. And I think the fact that, how long is she? 10 years? She was prime minister for 10 years. 11 years. And basically, you know, we, current prime ministers last about a week. Yeah. They're like fruit flies. They have the same life expectancy and same intellect. They're so terrible.

32:30They are nourished on the blood of others. They are so terrible that I think her reputation can only improve by comparison. I mean, the comparison between her and Liz Truss, Keir Starmer. I mean, she's not that bad. I mean, names that no one listening will ever have heard of any of them. Yeah. They just enter the front of Downing Street and they go out the back without breaking stride. I'm also a big Churchophile. I really love Churchill. And I know that I've talked to British people who, oh, well, you know, he behaved poorly here. He behaved poorly there. There's a lot of it that maybe doesn't age well.

33:12And sometimes I am impatient. I think, oh my God, you know, this was the perfect person at the perfect time with the perfect wit and the perfect eloquence. That alone should protect him. Am I wrong? He got one massive thing right. and I think essentially that cancels everything he got wrong. Yes, yeah. Also, I mean, you've got to give him massive credit. And when you say one massive thing, right, just for anyone who's, you know, people were trying to appease Hitler, appease Hitler, appease Hitler and he said enough of this. So he's right about that, but I think specifically it's the moment when the Nazis are on the French coast.

33:51There's a serious prospect that the British government may open negotiations with Hitler and had that happened, then the history of Europe and of the world would have been radically different. That it doesn't happen is massively down to Churchill. Because of one man who said no. Right. I mean, it's amazing. It's a pinch point. It's a amazing story about him addressing his MPs and saying to them, if this Long Island story of ours is to end, let it end only when we are choking in our own blood on the ground. And that kind of stirring stuff. I mean, nobody says that outside movies. He says that he galvanizes the English language, the English people, I have a theory that, again, I'm just going to go with Brits because I don't know what to say, that the British people are famously afraid of or wary of puffed up language.

34:44I know it's certainly true of the Celts. The minute someone starts to say, everyone is going, oh, get over yourself. That all the rhetoric I love of Churchill's sometimes is slightly embarrassing. Well, the thing is, he speaks like that from about the age of four. Yeah. And it makes him a very comical figure. So what is it? The age of 10? Yeah, I know. He's at school. I love him at four saying, anyone who will not give that toy and put it back in my pram will choke on their own blood. But the thing is, at the age of 10 or something, when he's at school, he's writing essays about how he is going to save Britain from foreign invasion.

35:24And he, in a sense, you know, his whole life has been preparation for 1940 when he stands alone. He got loads wrong. He made loads of terrible, terrible mistakes. And some of his, you know, more intemperate statements don't stand up very well today to ask Ruthiny. But when you look at his life, he had an amazing life. Oh, my God. He is Zelig. I mean, the Woody Allen movie Zelig where he's in every... South Africa and he escapes from a Burr prisoner of war camp. He's in Cuba when the Americans are fighting in Cuba. He's fighting in India. He's hit by a cab in New York City in the 1930s. He's crazy.

35:58He's everywhere. This extraordinary life. Plus, he is such a likable personality. He's so brilliant. He's such fun. He's a great laugh. If he was sitting next to you at dinner, now you wouldn't get a word in Edgeways. Oh, I would. You don't know who you're messing with. Hey, Winston! Who left this Irish idiot in here? I, when I visited, I have my frequent stops when I'm in London, Imperial War Museum, I always have to go. I witnessed an argument. This is in the late 80s. I was at the Imperial War Museum and I witnessed there's a, there was a British half track there. And two old German men were saying, this was not the best design.

36:45And two British guys said, well, it was bloody well good enough, wasn't it? And they got into it. What was the accent that that British person had? I see you, chap. Dick Van Dyke taught me how to talk to you guys. Blimey. Hello, governor. I did that to Hugh Laurie's face once, and I think he struck me, but it's all a blur now. We have an episode on Mary Poppins coming up. Oh, really? Yeah, we do. Terrific. Well, apologies. Dick Van Dyke, he was taught his Colton accent by an Irishman who'd been appointed by Walt Disney. It was the ultimate act of the IRA. Yeah. It's the sabotage. Explains a lot.

37:23Yeah. Yeah. He has apologized many times. I had him on the show and I asked him about that. And he said, I'm sorry. That's what I was taught. It's terrible. He was. But to his credit, he's Dick Van Dyke. He's a national treasure for us. And he apologized. But what were we talking about? I've drifted. Imperial War Museum. Imperial War Museum. Oh, yes. And then Chartwell. I went to Chartwell, which I - That is great. And I just, looking at the Chartwells, the country estate that Churchill bought when he didn't have the money to buy it. And he was making, I mean, to his credit, earning his living, writing articles and probably spending money he didn't have, but he bought Chartwell.

38:07And there are a few homes that tell you who the person is. Most of them have been redone. The person isn't really there. My two favorites are Chartwell and Teddy Roosevelt. house at sagamore hill on oyster bay never mean that oh you have to go because teddy roosevelt's there right they didn't touch it his wife kept it exactly the same when she passed it became a museum nothing's been changed it's filled with stuffed heads and bombast and uh hyperactivity and they're quite similar i think yeah they're very similar to who uh t.r's hero was uh well kipling who oliver cromwell oh that's oliver cromwell yes his hero one of my heroes actually kind of sorry not so much of the british i mean the irish i once my grandmother lived with us growing up and she was uh she had been born in 1890 and the movie cromwell was on in her room she in the room on the second harris film richard harris and i'm crossing her room and the door is slightly ajar and just the flickering image she's watching it and it's a scene where the british are under Cromwell or something's going on.

39:16I can't remember, but it was something about the Irish. And my grandmother's watching and she just said, the bastards. Well, you know, we grew up on these children's books called Lady Bird books. And they were books about great lives. So there was, Oliver Cromwell was one of them. And it has kind of famous summing up. And it says, Oliver Cromwell, brackets, except in Ireland, was a kindly man. Which I think... Colonel O 'Brien, except for to his staff and friends, was a kindly man. Yeah, which I think sums up perhaps. What was that saying, Cromwell? He was robust in Ireland. Yeah. He was robust.

39:56Robust, yeah. Robust is a very useful word on the podcast. He had sometimes pungent views. Pungent and robust. They carry a lot of weight. You know, the larger, to Google Earth out of this all, these little areas for a second, one of the things that sustains me and i know that you have a lot of young listeners which i love because um the role that history plays for me in my life my knowledge of history and my enthusiasm for it is it often reminds me that we've been here before and that the history of mankind is a lot of things constantly going wrong um and you know good good people in the mix trying to right the ship.

40:42But I get a lot of satisfaction out of all the things that are happening today that are so, can seem so dire. And of course, unlike anyone that you're talking about in your podcast, we're being bombarded with bad news constantly through this new technology. A lot of young people just think, well, this is the end of the world. And I try and remind them. Things have been worse. Oh, no. But I keep telling them, do you think 1914 was great? How about 1861 in the States? I mean, even in our recent history, the 60s was a dreadful decade. 70s, 80s. I mean, it's hard to locate a time when we all didn't think.

41:21When I was at university, as you call it, when I was in college, we all thought Reagan is going to blow up the world. Yeah, yeah. And this is the end. Late for the first two world wars. Yeah. Early for the third. Yeah, exactly. Well, well, well. There we go. Oh, there goes Moscow. There goes well. But I mean, and I'm just constantly reminded that we had a moment of optimism when the Berlin Wall fell, which quickly turned to cynicism. And then things seem to have just gotten much worse in Russia. And we see what's happening in the world. And I think, well, this is the way it's been. It's always been this way.

41:59So I would say a couple of things. One is that people always behave badly. History keeps happening and people will continue doing bad things because human nature doesn't change. And yet, most people alive today live longer, healthier, more comfortable, warmer as in shielded from cold lives with more opportunities, the broader cultural horizons, all of that kind of thing. That's not to be complacent, but you'd rather be here than at any previous point in history. And the other thing is dentistry, which is always mentioned. And antibiotics. My father was a microbiologist and studied antibiotics his entire life.

42:35Never went to the dentist though. A face of just broken tombstones in his mouth. Oh, British. Like George Washington. Like George Washington. He walked around with other people's teeth in his mouth. That's right. Poor from Washington. That's right. We knew he was a bad man, but that confirms it. Had to eat. You know what he ate because of his bad teeth? I don't know. Can I tell you? Go on. He would have tripe. Tripe was all he would eat, which is cows. Really getting down in restoration, isn't he? Cows stomach mashed up and then boiled and this man who might be the greatest American of all time through his rotted jar would suck tripe into his mouth.

43:09That makes me feel so happy. You know, the worst teeth. The worst teeth. Won't you forgive us? Rameses the Great, the pharaoh, they found his mummy and he'd lived to about 97. And they inspected his jaw. And because the sand, you know, it's Egypt, so sand gets into the bread, 90 odd years of chewing on bread had worn down the teeth, had worn down the gums, had exposed the nerves. He was pharaoh. He was one of the greatest figures of ancient history. I mean, every minute would have been excruciating agony. There was nothing that he could do about that. Nothing he could do. So I just say that to cheer people up who may be depressed at doom scrolling.

43:55Yeah, exactly. If you're depressed about what's happening right now and global warming, remember, there's not sand in your bread. Exactly. And the world has been convulsed by terrible examples of climate change before. So the sixth century AD,

44:13possibly the worst year in human history. There's a kind of great climactic event. The world cools, the crops fail, there's plague, there's war, everything collapses. and I again offer that as a reassurance that things may seem bad now but honestly they have been so much worse. Yeah and I think I go back to that all the time is there's also a this is not just a uniquely American thing but it's very popular in our politics to can't we return to that golden old time and as a not a historian like you gentlemen as an amateur I always say, tell me when that was. Right, it never existed. What is this golden time?

44:55And they'll try and say things like, well, in the 1890s, the thing that's always recreated when someone opens an ice cream shop and people have arm garters and wax mustaches. And I think, no, that was no good. Lynching, right? No, no, I mean, exactly. There is no golden past. And I think that's one of the things that sustains me these days is I listen to your podcast and you tell these great stories and I love the stories and I learn so much, but it informs how I live today. It informs how I read the news. It informs how I take what's coming. And I'm usually a little, I think, calmer. And I work with a lot of young people who are convinced.

45:40I remember during COVID, someone who was waiting on me in a restaurant telling me she was very young. She was about 20. And she said, she's very sad. And I said, why? And she said, I'll never see a concert again. I'll never see a live concert again because that's over now because of COVID. And I said, no, no, no. We were here in 1919. We've been here a bunch of times before. These happen and they go away and we move on. You're going to see so many concerts and so many of them are going to be terrible. You'll be dreaming of lockdown. Yeah, yeah. I have to ask you, I have not listened to your Rolling Stone podcasts, your satanic majesties podcast beatles or stones i just have to ask for me beatles 100 yes stones okay well i have to tell you dominic you're wrong you're wrong wrong about wrong about yeah mary lincoln mary lincoln and wrong about the stones look i love them an amazing three chord band but you're a bit bored of the beatles no ubiquitous it's impossible it's impossible and look is it their fault that their stuff is you're penalizing them for their popularity being too good Incredible.

46:47Well, wrong again. And I should tell you, Mary Lincoln played with the Stones for a while. So you should really hit the Stones. Yeah. She was one of Peter, Paul and Mary, right? Yeah. She was with Peter, Paul and Mary. Yes. Then she left, replaced Bill Wyman for a little while as a bass player. And then Mick got jealous. She was getting all the attention. Yeah. That was, I have to ask you on a personal note, this thing is blown up. You started as a lark you were having fun yeah and now it's all this yeah mental are you enjoying i mean tom hanks is a huge fan who will come on the podcast i've not been invited uh listen i understand i understand my place in the hierarchy i have a small cameo uh in saving private ryan i'm shot i'm the ninth guy to be shot just coming right off the boat what would if you what would you uh like to talk about we'd pick a topic you could pick a topic with me and i would come to london where do you do it and Do you do it in London?

47:42No, we can do it. You don't have to move. No, no, no. I want to be there in person. Or do you guys, are you together when you do that? No, we hate each other. No, God, I mean, that would be terrible. Yeah. No, never. This is the first time we've been together for about four years. Okay. It's very unpleasant. Well, I'd like to be with one of you live. So I would like to be at one of your, I'm imagining a grand estate. Yeah. And I would like to be with one of you in person. Yeah. And I would like to make the other jealous. Maybe we could talk about why Mary Lincoln was a goodie. or why the Beatles are brilliant.

48:13I could do the Beatles in a second. Let's do the Beatles. I mean, I would happily join you guys anytime. This has been a thrill for me and I got to talk about about 170th of the things that I would love to talk to you about. But so it goes. We'll leave that for another time. If you're not listening to The Rest is History with Tom and Dominic, you're a fool. And you don't, and you know what? you don't even have to be a history buff. They're stories and they're the best stories that ever were. And they're told by two great storytellers. And so the rest is history. Please give it a listen. And thank you to both very much for being here.

49:00Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. Absolute joy. Thank you.

49:12We have something very important to discuss right now. Is it important? It's very important. If you'd even question me, it's abhorrent to me. Recently, we had a discussion about singing popular songs on the podcast. Is that a copyright infringement? Do we have to then pay off these artists? Or are we allowed to sing a popular ditty? Do we have the freedom to do that? And we realize there's one person we need to talk to. Yep. He is one of the loyal troops here in the Team Cocoa Army. He's a magnificent lawyer, despite never having practiced law or graduated from law school. He's the Hosea Royal of lawyers.

49:57True. But no one pretends to be a lawyer better than David Melmette. And David, thank you very much for being here. And I also want to say, people really like David Melmette. I mean, everyone's - talking about that. Thank you. We're all big fans. Thank you. You know, I'm a controversial figure here in the building, but you are universally very well liked. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate that. And so, and I thank you. You do terrific work for us in your capacity as a fake lawyer. So, David, let's get into it. The question is, can I sing songs on the podcast? Can Sona sing songs on the podcast? And Matt Gorley, is he allowed to break out into a tune every now and then.

50:42What's the answer? I'm going to give you a lawyer answer to that. Okay. The answer is maybe. The answer is maybe. Maybe. You're rotating in your chair a lot nervously. Yes, I am. I don't really want to know. Exactly. I got it in gross. We could actually use that as an example right there. Okay, great. That's a perfect example. This is timely, too. Which song was that? Because the way you were singing it was just awful. What song was that? That's always a song, Live Forever. Oh, okay. Got it. Terrific. So that's a perfect example right there. Thank you. I think there's a way to approach these. I think music is probably one of the most controversial sort of topics in all of clearance.

51:24Right. I think music, particularly with you, Conan, your love of music and sort of the idea of music now in podcasts has become a hot, certainly topic within the legal community. And so now that we have an example, I think the first thing. If you don't get more interesting faster, I'm going to kill you. Okay. It's that interesting. Okay. I mean, it's that simple. You have to. Look at all these notes. I love it. I mean, look at the. This is my notes. You're not talking to the Supreme Court. Yes, I am. It's just us. Yes, I am. He is the most professional person in this room right now. I know, but that was just dreadful.

52:02I know. What? He let the man talk. I think. I did. And it was awful. Yes. It was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I'm sorry, David. Continue. And in no way, in no way, in no way feel constrained by what I've said or intimidated. I'm not. As your employer continued doing that awful thing you were just doing. Exactly. This is. OK, so there's a there's a step approach to that. I think the first thing we ask is what is the intended use of what you are trying to do? And I think why I ask that is a lot of times I hear samples and they're really terrible. I think the when I actually asked the person, what do you want to use it for?

52:42They hear themselves say it and say, you know what? We're good. We're actually not going to use that. Once we get to step two, say, you know what? We want to do that. Then we get to where do you want to use it? Where do you want to distribute it? And so in that case, just I'm putting you on the spot, Corley. Where would you want to use that within? Well, I think we're talking about this podcast. So this is the I think we're all talking about the same thing, which is, OK, we're having that podcast. We're talking and someone brings up Robert Palmer and Sona says, wait, which one is he? Because she's younger.

53:11And I go, murder's worth, he's so addicted to, he's so fine. There's no telling where the money went. And what do you do now? It comes across your desk. Yes, it does. I don't think you have a desk. I do not. You don't merit one yet. I sit in the corner. He does sit in the corner. I sit in the corner. You do sit in the corner. I do sit in the corner, yes. Well, when you get a real law degree, you'll get a real desk. Thank you. But David, that's the example. That's a great example. They come to you and they say, Conan O 'Brien joined in by Matt Gorley, Robert Palmer's song. We just did it. Do you cut it out or do you let us do it?

53:45I say, again, maybe. I would say, let's try to get permission to do that. I think that is the goal here is to say, do we need permission to do that? So that, again, is a difficult thing because you could say, look, we need to release this episode next week. How are we supposed to go to the record label? Yeah, Robert Palmer's gone. He has tragically passed. Yes, he has. And he has an estate that's very protective of his musical work. And then does someone get them a sample of us singing it and they listen to it? We actually would provide the sample because you're recording this, right? We're recording this and we bring it to that.

54:20This is awful. Okay, well. Again, I mean, this whole segment is a trend. I think it's fantastic. I think this is very helpful. I agree. I like it. I think this is fantastic. So we bring that sample to the record label. We'll say, hey, look, Conan O 'Brien, Matt Gorley, Sona would love to use this sample. I'm OK. You can leave me at it. Please. Conan O 'Brien. She is tone deaf. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to lump me in on the Robert Palmer one. Yes. Now, here's my question. Yes. Would you say this promotes Robert Palmer's discography? Or disparages his entire thing? No, it doesn't. It makes you think, oh, I did love that song.

54:56I don't love the way they're doing it, but I do love that song. and I'd like to go out and immediately on Spotify get the complete Robert Palmer collection. You would certainly use that argument in a negotiation for a fee, right? This is ridiculous. I'm just, you know, the thing is, I'm not a musician who's playing the song. I'm just saying, she's so fine. There's no telling where the money went. And then suddenly a highly paid pseudo lawyer who's suspiciously tan all the time. I don't know how you are in the middle of winter and you've got the deepest bronze tan. Do you use a tanning light? I do not.

55:36And you asked me that. He's a handsome guy. You are incredibly handsome. Thank you. Well, you asked me that two years ago. Yeah, I know. Guess what? It's the last time we spoke. That is true. Until today. Yeah. Conan, you came to my corner. Yep. And you said, do you tan? Yeah. I would love that tan. Yeah. And I said, I don't. I actually get, I get outside. I have a, you know, glowing. You have an incredible glow. Thank you. What do you attribute that to? Is it your lineage? Are you pregnant? How is this pertinent to this? Let me do this. Okay. We're getting to it in a second. This is important.

56:11What are you, a lawyer? Go ahead. What was your question? Sorry. Yes. This is so important. But David, explain. Explain this golden hue you have. I think genetics. Yeah. I think I have parents in their 80s that look like they're in their 60s. So that's the first. But what is your genetic makeup? I know that's probably an incorrect question to ask these days. Where are your genetics? Unless no. I would say there is probably a sort of Middle Eastern, you know, beautiful skin. Absolutely gorgeous. But you're forgetting that he has these beautiful eyes, too. The hazel eyes. Can I say something else?

56:51He has this great. You have salt and pepper hair, which is to die for. I mean, I'm walking around with this clown dessert on my head, and I look at you, and I'm like, he may not be a real lawyer. He may be the only thing we could afford, but gotta do him in a Mississippi second. What? He's your lawyer. He is your lawyer. Yeah, okay. All I'm saying is you can't ask about genetics, and you can't say, I want to do you to the lawyer. Well, listen. We are actually out of time. I'm glad we covered all the legal questions to the music. I'm just going to say one thing. He's so fine. There's no telling where the money went.

57:29Listen, so back to the other, the initial point of this whole thing, which is you're very good looking. Thank you. Wait, that wasn't it. Back to the real point, David, which is you're saying that anytime we hum any ditty, you have to get on the phone and try to buy the rights from some monsters? Can I add, last, Conan, you argued that if you hummed, the worse you hummed it, the more rights we would have, right? Like if you were off with the melody or the tone, then we would be able to use it. I would say, for example, famously litigious Led Zeppelin. No one gets to do Led Zeppelin stuff. But if I sing it and it's wrong, but everyone knows what I'm doing, do we still have to pay?

58:16You could. You could. You'd have to get the lyrics and the melody wrong, though, right? Oh, I could do the whole thing. Now, there's a lady who knows. Sure. That's it. Those speakers are bows. Oh, boy. And she's trying. Staircase. To nirvana. Nirvana. Now, would I have to pay for that? No way. Well, I wouldn't say no way. Why? You'd say maybe. I would say maybe. And I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. If you were in, if you were led, no, I'll tell you why. You ask the questions that you don't want to hear the answer. I don't think you want to hear what the answer, I say in the most conservative way, yes.

58:58Now there are different exceptions. You can, for example, I think the use, the fair use word, de minimis use is used a ton, but you've already committed the copyright act, right? So when I, I have talked to you, Sona, about this plenty of times where, and I think I'm going to use Jeff Ross's name. He loves the word de minimis. it's just a little bit of use that a court would never say, you know, we're not going to litigate this. Go ahead and use it. Conan O 'Brien, he can do two, three seconds of that song. We're not going to even go there. De minimis. Why does Jeff love de minimis? I haven't heard de minimis since the Latin teacher saw me without my pants on.

59:31That's what he said. That's what he said. That's exactly what Jeff said. Pretty good, huh, Sona? Look at her. Look at her. Look at her. That is what he said. It's not the Maximus. I got a quick question. should we do a two-parter and continue to? Yes, we should do a two-parter. Because we're out of time. Okay, we are sitting here with our, he says he's a lawyer, we've seen no paperwork. David Melmid, impossibly good looking and beloved here on staff. Very sweet, thank you. Stay tuned for part two. Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend with Conan O 'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley.

1:00:10Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Liao. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy.

1:00:22Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair. And our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com slash Conan.

1:00:58And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.