We’re gettin’ Belayed!

0:10Hey, Phil. Welcome to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Fan. Phil, how are you? Hey, Coden, Sona, Matt. How's it going? There's no particular order to the way I said your name in terms of hi-horror. It's fine. It's fine. And it's nice to talk to you. Phil, tell us a little bit about yourselves. I like to, you know, get the parameters of a man before we continue speaking. Where are you right now? So I live in Vermont. Yeah, you've got that Vermont accent. I was almost going to say it, and you said it for me. Traditional Vermont accent. Yeah. Where are you from originally? I'm originally from a town called Ipswich in England on the East Coast.

0:57Okay. Very nice. I felt I should experience New England, and so that's where I live now. It's so funny. I grew up in New England and really believed when I was a boy that England had stolen the names of our towns. I really believed that. Is that what they tell you? No. I just was, I found out that, you know, because I grew up in Boston and there's Cambridge and just on and on and on. And I just thought, you know, Sturbridge. And then I started to hear about these places in England and thought, well, why can't they get their own names? So. I remember I went to Ipswich Mass. So you may be familiar, but they have an Ipswich Mass brewery.

1:38And I went in and I said, I'm from Ipswich. and they said, well, no shit, we're in Ipswich. I said, no, no, the original. And I expected to be carried on shoulders, but that did not happen. No, there's not a lot of, ever since we got rid of your king, we don't go carrying people around on our shoulders. It's, but, well, so you live in Vermont. How did you choose Vermont? What made you say, okay, you have the entire United States to play with. What made you choose Vermont? I would say the beauty. Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's a beautiful state. And it also happens to be Howells, the location at which I work.

2:19So it was through work that I ended up in Vermont. It wasn't necessarily a choice, but I am very glad for the choice. Very good. It's a beautiful state to raise a kid. I like New Hampshire. I like Vermont. I've spent a lot of time in both. And I'm curious what you do. You mentioned a job. What is your job? Yeah, so I work for an organization called High Five Adventure Learning Center, and I use adventure-based activities for team and leadership development from fifth grade kids all the way up to the Boston Bruins. So a spectrum. it's very interesting to me that it's the same principles if you're talking to someone in the fifth grade or if you're talking to a professional athlete it's the same principles i guess leadership how to work together how to have fun um and i mean yeah and i would say i'm unique in that i get to take people on a ropes course in vermont so you know we bring participants up to 40, 50 feet in the air and kind of have stretch moments for them.

3:21So really have kind of really extreme experiences really that allows them to kind of develop more as a team. And it doesn't matter if you're a fifth grader or you're a professional athlete, the heights is the great normalizer or the great equalizer. Yeah. And now, okay, let's get into the safety of it because you send a fifth grader up a pole, how many feet in the air? Let's say 40, 40, 50. Sure. Anyway, within that range. Is the child tethered or is there a good chance the child could fall to his or her doom? I would assume that if we did it untethered, we wouldn't be allowed. So, no, it is very much tethered.

4:04That seems very legalistic. That's, yeah. I would assume that were one to have an untethered child, that if found out, one would be discovered and one could be in trouble. I think you have untethered children. And I think kids are falling like apples. Apples in October. I think they're tumbling and you're just catching them. We start to get calls from parents immediately after this. No, they're on a rope. We belay them. And I would say that I've seen you climb. I believe there was a Colonel Musco episode where you climbed. Your incredible physique mastered the climb. Hey, I like you, by the way.

4:44You're fantastic. And clearly you don't have a very good television screen. But yes, I did climb. I did a rock wall in Thailand, I believe. The differing factor, I would say, for our programs is we actually teach our participants to do the belaying. So that is that demonstration of team and leadership development is actually giving them a skill and allowing them to be responsible for their team members. and so that is something that I really, I think the free of you, bring Eduardo bring Blay, but teach Sona how to Blay and then have Sona in charge of Conan No, no, guess what guess what, Phil I've experienced Sona in charge of Conan I think I did about 10 years of Sona in charge of Conan and I was killed multiple times shit went half-assed all over the place.

5:47So you're saying that I would be hanging 50 feet in the air and the only thing between me and death would be a rope and Sona's holding onto it? Yes, yes. And then Sona sees a glass of white wine in the corner. Let's go of the rope. Wine. And I go, ah! And you go, slip, slip, slip, slip, slip, slip, slip, slip. Slip, slip, slip. Yeah, I like that idea. I think we should do this team building thing. I think that would really bring us closer together. So is it all climbing? It's critical for all teams. Is it all climbing? What other things would we do? So I would say we range it from ground initiatives.

6:21They may be problem-solving activities on the ground. There is connection activities to get you more connected as a team. And then we focus on the development of your trust and your responsibility and your decision-making. And then you bring you to that point of belaying each other. Really, that's that ultimate point. We'll get you there, right? I have 100 % faith in my abilities. Phil, I have a lot of faith in you, Phil. Is it possible that it's our dysfunction that makes this podcast popular? That it's our inability to get along, our childishness, our peevishness, our just overall, I don't know, just refusal to act like good people.

7:05Yes. That might be the glue here. That's right. It's that we don't have a balance. We have an equal amount of repulsion for each other. We're pulling on each other with equal amounts, so we stay tethered. Yes. Is that possible? It's highly possible. And actually, I've listened to all of the episodes, and from my professional lens, I would say you're a really high-functioning team, despite the repulsion. I think that repulsion could be there, and your team could still be successful. I like the head nods. No, no. I am agreeing with you that there is some, in architecture, sometimes an arch works because various forces are acting upon each other in an aggressive way, but that's what holds it all together.

7:54I've often heard, often, I've heard aviation experts describe a helicopter as a machine that wants to pull itself apart, but it's engineered in such a way that it doesn't, and that's actually what gives it its integrity. That's the analogy. I think we're a helicopter that desperately wants to fly apart. Rotors zipping in every direction. Adam Sachs walking into the room, his head being lopped off. Carnage, massacre, flames. But something keeps it all together. And because of that, we're able to fly around through the air and give the local traffic report. So everywhere around you is destroyed.

8:32But this group stays intact. Wow, beautiful. That's nice. Where did you first become interested in all of this, Phil? You're a young boy. You're living in Eastern. Young boy. Well, I'm saying he's a young boy. He's in the Eastern Coast, I'm imagining, of England. The salty air. Sausage for breakfast. Please. You know, also some beans. The ever-present beans. Tea. Some tea. With milk. Milk, yeah. Syrup. Yeah. And then something. Please, you're getting me very heightened. Right. I thought we were talking about Vermont. And then suddenly you get into team building. Was there another plan along the way or was this always the plan, do you think?

9:21So I was, my education is in teaching. And so I was going to become a teacher. And I came over to the States to do a summer camp program. It's a rite of passage, it seems like, for a European to enter America and work a summer camp program. So I felt like I had to do it. And at the camp, they had a ropes course, they had team development, and they did year-round programming. And I kind of just fell in. They said, you've got a teacher in a degree. We'd love for you to stick around. And they sponsored my visa. Oh, very cool. And 18 years later, I'm still here. Oh, wow. So I've yet to find my way home.

9:58Well, I think you're thriving. It's reminding me, I went to summer camp in Freedom, New Hampshire. And there was a camp there called Cragged Mountain Farm. And we had, I had a, one of my counselors was from Britain. and I remembered climbing the presidential mountain range and there was this gentleman with a British accent who would tell us to move our asses get up that hill and we killed him and we ate him it was delicious we were running low on food we only had six more weeks of food left for a two day hike so it was necessary that he die and be eaten Phil I really respect people that teach for a living and I it's it's absolutely wonderful and do you find ever that a kid um or even an adult gets up to the top of the pole and they just won't budge and they just won't move and you you're coaxing them and coaxing them but they don't move what do you do at that point push them bb so I think it really bb push them this is this is what I'm working with are Are you up there with them or is someone up there with them?

11:10No, but I would say the question to push them does come up often and it's the number one thing we say not to do. So, sorry, Sona. Can I give you my suggestion? Electrify the pole. They suddenly spread out like a flattened squirrel and they fall through space. I love it. An electrified pole, that's the answer. Do they die? No. It's not my concern. What I'm saying is that a BB gun, you have to hit them 50 feet. That's a whole other activity for some other children, for some team building. So you're kind of combining. Another group. Yeah. Off to the side. Yeah. So to answer the question, there's two parts to it.

11:58I like that you laughed at that. There's two parts to it. We're clearly not trying to learn anything. Well, I will answer your question. and give you the knowledge you need to the three idiots. To baby gun pushing and electrifying the pole. Wondering if I'll find myself in a situation where I have to push a kid down a pole. I don't know, but I'm eager to hear how to do it. This is the next career path for you, Matt.

12:33so either we have adequately prepared the students so that we're not having people up who shouldn't be up there we don't force them up oh so there's a long a lot of training before they go up the pole yeah i would say there's like loads of sequencing planning uh it's part the risk management thing. And then, but I, the other component is that I teach as well as teaching the team building stuff. I also teach rescue training for those kinds of scenarios. So we can have participants go up to height or staff members, sorry, go up to height and then help pick a participant off the course. Um, so there are, there's like a spectrum or a range of rescue scenarios that we can do.

13:11And I, I teach those two. So from a, like a risk management lens, um, I would say you're in safe hands because not only can we deal with the mental side of how to help people, but we can also deal with the physical component of getting someone down if necessary. We wouldn't want to push someone, though. No, no. Unfortunately. You berate them? That would be terrible. I think electrifying much better. I think berating is good, too. You little pussy. Sona brings up a good point. Are you, it could be valuable to shame someone who doesn't. Sure, yeah. And, you know, I know your first reaction as an educator is that, oh, you can't shame a fifth grader, but I was shamed many times as a fifth grader, and I think it molded me into the person I am today.

13:59Case in point. Hold it, excuse me. Okay. I'm driving home in three Maseratis all tied together. Not easy to do. But what I'm saying, Phil, is that if a child fails and has to be brought down, is there any ceremony where the child is maybe drummed out, little epaulettes are torn from his shoulders? Pelted. Or in some way made to suffer for his cowardice? I would say that regardless of anything I do to try to reduce that from happening, that will probably happen in some way. Yeah, kids will be kids. I would say the worst people that would, if there's a school group, sometimes the worst people are the teachers.

14:43And if it's a family group, the worst people are the parents. They're the ones who are screaming the obscenity sometimes. But for the most part, I think that we are very calm and relaxed about the way that we talk with our students. And we attempt not to shame people if they were to fail or come down. Can you pretend like you're our teacher? Because I understand you have a little game for us to play. Work with us. Okay, we've just shown up in Ipswich, Vermont. Our car broke down. It overheated. It was a 1977 Hyundai, which didn't even exist. We weren't even planning on going? No. No, we were driving through.

15:27We're on our way to a yard sale because they have a ton of those in New Hampshire and Vermont. You've probably noticed that on the weekends. Everyone just puts literally toilet seats on their yard and says it's a yard sale. I beg to differ, Vermont. But anyway, and please, no angry letters. I won't read them. So we come wandering in and we need your team building. What would you have us do? So first I would say you're in the wrong place because there's no Ipswich, Vermont. So, but after you... Son of a bitch. He just shamed you. You just shamed me. And all the other kids are laughing. It does come from the teacher.

16:05Oh, loser. Sorry. You little pussy. Oh, no. You're a geography imbecile. Yeah, I'm going to shove you off the pole. I'm from New England. I can't. Wait a minute. All this shame. Stop firing BBs at me. All this shame is molding me into an amazing comedian. Thank you, Phil. task done task done you arrive and then i say get back into your car please we don't my services are no longer needed yes very good no but if you make it to the right location and um i think the first thing we would start with is because adventure i think sometimes gets misinterpreted as the climbing parts yep but adventure is any form of risk and it could be physical it could be emotional it could be social risk um the first thing you're going to start with It's actually talking about our emotions, which can be a risk for some people.

17:01I know. And I can see the excitement in your faces and the pointing of other people. So what we're going to do is I am going to share with you on the screen a number grid. So you've got one through 57.

17:19So what I'm going to ask, I'll ask one of you at a time. We can start with Conan. I'm going to ask you to pick two numbers. that's a level of risk because you don't know what's behind them but there are emotions and feelings words under these numbers okay what i would like you to do once you see the words is describe an experience or name an experience that you have had where you have experienced both of those feelings at the same time because we as humans are not only experiencing one thing at a time when it comes to emotions okay and so but the the situation i wanted to be that you've experienced as a trio so an experience you've had that you've experienced these two three of us have had okay and wow this is uh i gotta thread a lot of needles here it's got to be it's gonna be two emotions i've felt at the same time with uh with these two okay so i'm gonna go with yeah i'm gonna go with 17 and i'm gonna go with 44 okay so 17 is angry oh my god so far no problem all right hang on no scenarios yet and uh you've also experienced embarrassment all of you both angry and embarrassed alongside your chill chums today oh well i mean yeah excluding just now and the interview we did before this listen i talked to some uh you know i worked hard to become uh um you know a fairly well-known celebrity and then these two are coasting on my coattails.

18:49I'm often sitting here with some of the biggest names in the business, or if you're a bumblebee, the buzzness. Out of control. He's out of control. I'm angry about that buzzness. I'm here with these two. I mean, you were my assistant, and somehow you were elevated to the top of the showbiz pile. Matt Gorley is in a zither band. He plays some of the coolest spots in Pasadena, and he haunts the Rose Bowl swap meet. And I've put both of them in rooms with Harrison Ford, you know, some of the biggest stars in the world. All of the Kardashians have been here at the same time. And, you know, do I sometimes get angry about that and feel embarrassed that they lack the skills that I've spent years in the minds of comedy working?

19:37Yes, I do. I feel both of those things. But I'm going to specifically name a time. I think it was one of our, just pick one. But I think I was angry and embarrassed when you guys, both of you, became intoxicated in one of our Chill Chums shows. One of. Well, it's happened several times. Every time. And I, you know, I pride myself on being a professional. And of course, I imbibed a little, but was still in plenty of, I know my levels, my tolerance very well. And so I still was in control. and I was ashamed. I'm going to add ashamed to embarrassed and angry. Wow. I was angry, embarrassed, ashamed, and I felt superior to both of you.

20:26I'm adding that one too. I'm also adding. That's a lot. Yeah, okay. So I guess I won that contest. Yeah. Okay, I appreciate that. And I feel like I've really said. Wasn't that the idea to win? You don't win. Oh my God. Didn't I win? No, it's team building. We're on the same team You're tearing our team even further apart But Phil, wouldn't you say Whatever they say It's not going to be as good as that So don't I win and I'm the winner Is there a prize? Oof I think that you're experiencing He works with children Are you questioning your whole professional You just made that man say Poof Phil is going to get out of the team building business I have worked with professional hockey athletes who have told me to F off.

21:18And I, even in this, that made me oof. But I would say I really set you up there with almost those two words. I'm going to pass it over, if I may, to Sona. Sona, pick two words. Let's see if we can think of a situation you've maybe had and let you speak it all a bit too. Go for it. So two numbers. 10 and 40. Okay, I can tell they're good. it's serene oh my goodness well I know when she felt serene yeah matches your dummy and then and then number 40 is frustrated oh that's an interesting that's an interesting combo serene and frustrated I know that is kind of how have you felt both um you know chill chums when I was drunk yeah I was happy I was drunk and I was also frustrated I wasn't also a little high yeah yeah that's a really good answer yeah yeah that is and it speaks a lot to the team I picture Sona being serene and frustrated when she's got a bag and it's got four gummies in it and she's had three and so she's serene but she can't get at that fourth one because it's jammed down into the bottom of the bag I'm like Winnie the Pooh with the honeypot yeah and your hands aren't working that well so you're both serene and frustrated because that that last gummy evades your grip yeah okay alright I like this game Wow, I know, I like what you're doing And I'm also sensing that they're both tied To the Chill Chums experience Yes Beautifully so, yeah Alcohol involved in both, I will highlight that also Lastly, I'll come to you Matt for the last one Okay, I'll do four And how about 57 See how we all do extremes Four is surprised Ah Okay, 57 is chill oh what an end oh surprised and chill okay well i feel like i've got to carry on with this tradition with chill the chill chums i felt very chill because we were having alcohol and a lot of it so it kind of mellows you out yeah and you make an amazing drink i i want to compliment this gentleman one of the best mixologists i'm not even kidding your drinks are superb that's nice Thank you.

23:34Still, I got to say, I was surprised when you said that you weren't drunk on the chill chumps thing, because I remember you slurring some words and at one point talking to us, but looking inside the drink while you're talking to us like it was a microphone. I had suffered a terrible cerebral event unrelated to alcohol that night. And for you to mock me for it, it was a total coincidence that I had, uh, yeah, like a eruption of, uh, blood into the brain. Um, well, it looks like we're just a bunch of terrible drinkers. Wait, do you do anything with that? Oh, absolutely. And I think what's nice is that what we've able to do, in this, in the small moment, is reflect on stuff that's happened in the past, talk about it as a group, share some of these experiences together that have tied us together, and that allows us to progress into doing stuff that's a little bit more risky as a group.

24:28So all of those things are really positive. So you're saying we should drink more next time. Yes. Sure. Or come to Vermont and I'll get you belaying each other. There you go. That's that next level. That's nice. I want to belay. I believe it so. I want to belay you guys. Yeah. What? Yeah. I want to belay. I want to be in charge of your life. Okay. Let's get belayed. Yeah. Tonight we're getting belayed. Me hanging on a rope. Hey, tonight I'm getting belayed.

25:01Me hanging on a rope, you firing away with your 22. Well, I think we learned a lot here. I can already tell the name of this episode, so that's great. We're getting belayed. Yeah, we're getting belayed. Phil, you're doing all the work for us. Well, Phil, lovely, absolutely lovely talking to you. You are, again, I say this without irony or just no joke. When people teach for a living, I think that's a beautiful thing. And you seem like you'd be great at it. You've already demonstrated that you're affable and you're funny and you're smart. And so thank you so much for the work that you do. And I bet you are helping a lot of people of all ages.

25:44and I, you never know, I might make my way up to blank Vermont very soon. Ipswich. What's that? It's not Ipswich. Sorry for being so fascinated by your British roots. But maybe we will make it up there someday and I'd like to shake your hand. You're a fine fellow and you look a little bit like a younger Billy Bragg. I'm just going to say that. I love Billy Bragg. He's great, yeah. Wow. So the difference is a fifth grader once said to me, hey, Phil, do you know who you look like? And it doesn't often go well. And I was a little concerned. And I said, no, who do I look like? Sona and Matt might get the reference, but they told me I look like Llama Llama Red Pajama.

26:29Oh, yeah. I was going to say Josh Homie. I was thinking Gronk. Oh, no, I was thinking Josh Homie from... Queens of the Stone Age. Yeah, Queens of the Stone Age. But you know what? You sound like Clive Owen. These are so much nicer. Don't you think he sounds like Clive Owen? He does sound like Clive Owen. Yeah. This is so much better. You are better than fifth graders. Yay! Is that a compliment? That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me in a while. Oh. Phil, thank you so much. Lovely to talk to you. Continued success. And I hope we cross paths in the future. Thank you so much, friends. Take care.

27:02Bye-bye. Conan O 'Brien Needs a Fan. With Conan O 'Brien, Sonam Avsassian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Liao Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino Take it away, Jimmy Supervising producer Aaron Blaird Associate talent producer Jennifer Samples Associate producers Sean Doherty and Lisa Byrne Engineering by Eduardo Perez Get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com slash Conan Please rate, review, and subscribe to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Fan wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.