Gov. Tim Walz is skeptical about Trump’s plan to de-escalate immigration crackdown

0:00Tensions are high in Minnesota. But where do plans stand for the federal government to draw back federal officers from the state and de-escalate? When asked about this on Thursday, President Trump said... We want to keep our country safe. We'll do whatever we can to keep our country safe. So, you're not falling back? No, no, not at all. Which came hours after White House border czar Tom Homan said this Thursday. My main focus now is drawdown based upon the great conversations I've had with your state and local leaders. Homan also said it depends on what local leaders do next. We are not surrendering the president's mission in immigration enforcement.

0:41Let's make that clear. As we see that cooperation happen, then the redeployment will happen. Consider this. Minnesota's governor is skeptical about many things the administration is saying about de-escalating its immigration crackdown. I know who I'm dealing with. I know that they're not going to keep their word. Coming up, we speak with Democratic Minnesota Governor Tim Walz.

1:15From NPR, I'm Juana Summers. This message comes from TED Talks Daily, the podcast from TED. Curious how to introduce yourself so you actually get hired? Or why people are starting to sound like ChatGPT? There's a TED Talk for that. Listen to TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts.

1:43It's Consider This from NPR. Earlier today, I sat down with Governor Tim Walls at the Minnesota State Capitol to talk about ice enforcement in a state. Here is some of our conversation, and you can watch full video of the interview on NPR's YouTube channel and at NPR.org. I just want to start big picture for people who are not in Minnesota as you and I are. What is the status of Operation Metro Surge in your state right now? And does that align with what you have been hearing from the president, administration officials that you have been speaking with in recent days? I would say since my conversation on Monday with the president, I don't think there's been a lot of change.

2:23There's less smoke on the ground. But I have no indication that the numbers have come down. I will say I'm concerned over the last day or so, the developments. It's not helpful when Tom Holman talks about deployments and he referred to the state of Minnesota as a theater. That's words that are used in wars and in deployments to foreign countries. And again, the last night when the president was asked if he was drawing down, he said no. I believe it. I believe that part about what he said. So as far as it goes, it feels like there is a pause, but the tension amongst people here and the skepticism amongst people here is high.

3:08And I have reiterated time and time again that we want to find a way forward with this and can only do that factually with them. But we need some type of action. Let me ask you this. This is a president and administration that is constantly changing its mind and its message. earlier this week, you heard the president say he wanted to deescalate a little. And as you point out, you just heard the president say, you know, no pullback. How do you lead your state to lead the people here in Minnesota when you don't know what's coming next? You don't know what direction they're going to turn. Yeah. Well, I think you stay grounded in our values.

3:42We stay grounded in caring for our neighbors. We stay grounded in that justice matters. We stay grounded in staying peaceful in the face of this and grounded in encouraging people to continue to take pictures, dictate what was here. And I said it, and I don't even think the president himself would disagree with this. They have not changed their goal of mass deportations. They may try and change their tactics a little bit, but it doesn't change the underlying mission here, which is to cause great fear and chaos in communities. And to be very honest, very ineffective in actually targeting what they say is the worst of the worst.

4:24I'm pretty sure Liam, our little five-year-old, wasn't the worst of the worst. And as the world has found out, not only are Renee and Alex not the worst of the worst, they might be the best of the best. We heard border czar Tom Homan, who is here in your state. He spoke and he seemed to suggest that he wanted to see cooperation from you and other local leaders. And one of the things that he suggested he wanted to see is a reduction in interference from protesters and activists on the ground here in the Twin Cities. We're speaking, I just want to note, on a day when there's a general strike here in Minnesota across the country, are there any agreements on demonstrations that you're willing to make?

4:58I'm not going to compromise on the First Amendment. I'm not going to allow Tom Holman to characterize what are constitutionally protected rights of peaceful expression of grievance against the government. It's foundational to our democracy. They are trying to twist reality here with peaceful protests. They tried to do it with Alex, and they will go back, you know, they will dig up your kindergarten yearbook or whatever to try and discredit you. Look, I think there's really little debate in this. Had there been no video of that, Alex and Renee would both be deemed terrorists. Their families would probably be detained by now, and they would continue to spout these lies.

5:37Kristi Noem continues to go on and try and defend. Now, I will give her this. She may be as a lawyer or something now. I don't know. She's saying she's just taking marching orders. I remind everyone that's no defense. That's no defense in carrying out what they've done. I'll note that the administration has not only faulted protesters and observers. Attorney General Pan Bondi wrote a letter last week, and she criticized you personally for calling federal law enforcement, and I'm quoting here, Trump's modern-day Gestapo. How do you respond to her accusation that your rhetoric and remarks from other state officials aren't doing enough in her words?

6:09These are her words to support the men and women who are risking their lives to protect Americans and uphold the rule of law. Well, I've never said anything other than to be peacefully protesting, and I'll stand by my words. I have to use the English language to describe what I'm seeing. And in America, there are very little analogous descriptions I can give to what we're seeing. So I'm using what I have in my vocabulary to describe what I see. And I think everybody who woke up Saturday morning and witnessed that probably would come up to the same conclusion. Look, the attorney general is not a serious person.

6:45And I think we saw through this, and they said the quiet part out loud. I understand my job is to, I need to, and again, dealing with what would be a normal world. My job is to approach this measured, to be a statesman. but I'm not naive. That's not who I'm dealing with. That is not who these folks are. So to America, I would just say, I'm going to continue to speak up. I'm going to continue to express my anger and disgust and my expectations that Pam Bondi be an independent voice for justice and not take their march. Look, the president telegraphed what was happening here. This was about retribution.

7:24And that means retribution to the people of Minnesota. It's retribution to the way we do things. And I think many people here in Minnesota knows is they cannot stand that this state honors immigration. I do want to push you, though, on the political environment, the rhetoric that we're seeing lately. It is not lost on me that you and I are having this conversation in a state where we saw State Representative Melissa Hortman, another Democratic lawmaker. Melissa Hortman was killed. What happened with Ilhan Omar, a congresswoman, this week? Do you feel at all that you have a responsibility to help bring the temperature of the rhetoric that we're hearing and seeing it.

7:57Yes, that's why I talk about peacefulness all the time. That's why I talk to make sure that we're staying within the bounds of the law. I'm not going to say, gee, you guys should just be a little softer here when you push someone to the ground and put a gun near their head. I'm going to find the words that express the outrage that I'm feeling. Yes, I think about it, and I got to be candid with you. I'm probably doing a pretty good job of not speaking what's truly on my heart about these people to try and find that. And that is part of politics. That is part of how you get things done. But in this moment, this has transcended politics to be a fundamental moral issue.

8:37So if you're asking me, am I going to compromise with authoritarianism? Nope. Am I going to compromise on an erosion of civil liberties? Nope. So I'm going to go ahead and reject that both sides are responsible for this. There's one clear side that's doing this. yesterday on all things considered my colleague spoke with wisconsin republican senator ron johnson and he invoked you so i'd like to ask you about something that he said speaking about the situation here in minnesota there are people that need to be apprehended because they're criminals murderers rapists sex human drug traffickers that need to be apprehended and either jailed or deported and that right now is what these sanctuary cities and people like mayor fry and governor Walts are resisting and that have led to the tragedy.

9:23Had there not been an organized effort to resist those law enforcement actions, those two individuals in Minneapolis should still be alive. Governor Walts, how would you respond to that? Well, that's false. And I do have history of knowing this. Senator Johnson is a fool. He's wrong. Minnesota is not a sanctuary state. Minnesota is a bottom 10 state for violent crime. You've got a United States senator that once again, did he not watch the videos? Did he not see what happened there. And I'm just incredibly proud that Minnesotans are not going to stand back and take the boot to their neck. They're not going to stand back and capitulate on their responsibilities.

10:00And I'm pretty sure that Senator Johnson's been on the wrong side of history on every single vote he's taken. So I will say this, the folks of Wisconsin, we have deep affinity with. I can tell folks and tell this administration, if they try the same thing in Wisconsin, they'll get very similar results they're getting in Minnesota. So I don't really put much talk into Senator Johnson. I mean, it's not lost on any of us that this is a state that has been through a lot in recent years from the killing of George Floyd in 2020. Your state's now on another flashpoint involving violence. You've talked about, I've heard you talk about in recent days, the moral outrage done to the Minneapolis community.

10:35Governor, how do you intend to help people here heal from the trauma that they are experiencing? Yeah, well, the thing is, is our people will do it. We are resilient people. And just to be clear, the president bending a little bit and then, of course, backtracking now, the reason that he is bending is because of the faceless, nameless leadership that's on the streets that is organizing peaceful protests at a scale. You saw it. The same thing is why we needed justice with George Floyd, that policing has to be about trust. So Minnesotans have been through this, but you're right. The murder of one of our true shining stars in Melissa and Mark, the attempt on a senator and his wife.

11:17We have been through a lot. And in each one of those cases, we're mocked, downplayed. Our state's grieving. I'm grieving with them. But I think what we understand is this is bigger than us. And I would just, to your listeners, say this happens everywhere. It's much easier to hold a democracy than to try and get one back. And I'm just going to state it that, again, I'll go ahead and we are on the right side of history. Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, thank you so much for sitting down with us. Thank you for telling the story. This episode was produced by Megan Lim, Matt Ozug, and Karen Zamora with audio engineering by Andy Huther.

11:58It was edited by Ashley Brown and William Troop. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. And thanks to our Consider This Plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong. Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors and unlock bonus episodes of Consider This. Learn more at plus.npr.org.

12:26It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Juana Summers.