How Pam Bondi has reshaped the Justice Department

0:00Pam Bondi said a lot of the right things at her confirmation hearing as President Trump's pick for attorney general. She affirmed many of the principles that had up until that point been understood as the bedrock of the American justice system. Politics would play no part in prosecutorial decisions, she said. Every case will be prosecuted based on the facts and the law that is applied in good faith. Period. Period. And her oath would be to the Constitution, she said. And her client? The people of America. would be my client. But there's an exchange that stands out now for the question that Bondi does not answer, at least not directly.

0:45It starts with a question from Hawaii Senator Mazie Hirono, a Democrat. What role will the White House have in investigative or prosecutorial decisions of the DOJ? It is the Department of Justice's decision, Senator. Now, the context for this question, of course, is that Trump has said on multiple occasions that he has the, quote, absolute right to do what he wants with the Justice Department. And during his campaign to return to office, Trump issued more than 100 threats to prosecute, imprison, or otherwise punish his perceived opponents. Hirono asked about that directly. If President-elect Trump asks, suggests, or hints that you as attorney general should investigate one of his perceived political enemies, would you do so?

1:33Senator Hirono, I wish you had met with me. Had you met with me... Eh, they bicker over this for a bit. Then Hirono asks again. If the president suggests, hints, asks, that you as attorney general should investigate one of his perceived enemies, what would you do? Senator, I certainly have not heard the president say that. But what I will tell you is two-thirds of Americans have lost faith in the Department of Justice. And it's statements like that, I believe, that make people continue to listen. Bondi never directly answers the question. But in the years since, that hypothetical has become a reality.

2:13In a post on Truth Social last year, President Trump urged the AG to prosecute former FBI Director James Comey, Democratic Senator Adam Schiff, and New York Attorney General Letitia James. Within weeks, Bondi's Department of Justice secured indictments against both Comey and James. Both have since been thrown out. It also opened an investigation into Schiff. Consider this. Pam Bondi will be back testifying before Congress on Wednesday. Now she's head of a department that is radically different from the one she stepped into. We'll look at how she's reoriented America's justice system.

2:56From NPR, I'm Elsa Chang.

3:07It's Consider This from NPR. Attorney General Pam Bondi's appearance before the House Judiciary Committee on Wednesday is expected to focus on the DOJ's handling of the Epstein files. But as we mentioned earlier, there is a lot more to talk about. For a look at what Bondi has done with the Justice Department just over a year into the job, I called up Carol Lennig. She's a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist at MS Now and co-author of the book Injustice, How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department. So can you just remind us of how the relationship between Trump and Bondi came to be in the first place before her appointment as attorney general?

3:46Because they go back a bit, yeah? They do. She was the attorney general in Florida, a very large supporter of Donald Trump's in that state, which is definitely a red state. And in addition to her support as a Republican attorney general, they had a little bit of a controversial relationship in this respect that brought scrutiny on Pam Bondi when she was the attorney general because her office had launched an investigation into a Trump-funded university and whether or not it was appropriately using its money and its tax-deferred status. delivering what it was supposed to be delivering to students.

4:30And she received a large contribution from a Trump coordinated committee. And then the investigation ended, which caused a lot of people to question whether or not politics and donations were driving her office's decisions. Right. And what's your perception of why President Trump eventually chose her to become Attorney General? You know, there were quite a few candidates on the block being considered. One of Donald Trump's number one priorities in his litmus test for choosing cabinet secretaries in his second presidency was loyalty, fealty, absolute obedience to his commands. And Bondi had apparently met that test and exceeded his wishes in terms of what she was willing to promise him.

5:27And she did very much deliver that in her first very public introduction of the president to her Department of Justice employees when she welcomed him to the Great Hall at the Department of Justice headquarters. She basically said, you know, I am delighted and honored to introduce you to our new president and also to work at the direction of this president, which no attorney general had ever said. It caused a lot of mouths to sort of fall open. Well, let's talk about that piece by piece, this perception that Bondi is executing an agenda directly from the president's instructions. For example, Bondi and the DOJ have come under scrutiny for several cases brought against individuals whom Trump perceives as political enemies or who have done him some sort of political harm.

6:18Can you remind us first who those major cases center around? And how much do you believe those cases are the result of President Trump's explicit direction? I think the most clear connective tissue, Elsa, between Donald Trump's instructions and the Department of Justice's actions under Pam Bondi are that watershed moment of the indictment of former FBI Director Jim Comey, and very fast on the heels of that, the indictment of New York Attorney General Letitia James. Right. Two very vocal critics of Trump. Yes, very vocal. And two people that Donald Trump, you know, had a real vendetta against, whether they had one against him is an open question.

7:10And when he sent a tweet, which may or may not have been intentionally private and a mistake to make public. When he sent a tweet basically saying, Pam, we've got to indict these people. We've got to prosecute these people. They're criminals. It didn't take very many more days before presentations were made to grand juries in Virginia. The real shocker about that, Elsa, is career prosecutors. To go back to what Pam Bondi said in the clip that you just played, all the decisions will be based on the facts and the law. Career prosecutors and political appointees repeatedly warned Bondi's Justice Department that the facts and the law did not back up indicting either of those people.

7:57And indeed, grand juries in the case of Letitia James twice refused to indict her on those facts. As someone who has studied the Justice Department for so long, how concerning is it to you to watch the nation's top justice official seemingly take orders from the president about who to prosecute and how? As a reporter, and not as a citizen of the United States, but as a reporter, it's gobsmacking to watch this happen. I've never seen a situation where a Justice Department so quickly bends at the knee to the president's whims. But that's what's happening right now. A president is acting as a king, and members of the Department of Justice are acting as basically his courtiers.

8:52You know, trying to accomplish his wishes. The proof of that is underscored by the number of political appointees and career officials who are fired when they stand up and say, the facts and the law do not justify this action. So what will you be watching for specifically in tomorrow's hearing? I think what's so key is that the Department of Justice and Pam Bondi have an enormous territory in America. And the Justice Department and Bondi's decisions are at the heart of so many things that are controversial at the moment. You know, on the one hand, you've got Epstein. On the other hand, you have the prosecutions of political enemies of Donald Trump.

9:43But in the heartland of America, the Department of Justice and Bondi herself have made decisions declaring that people that protest immigration raids even are domestic terrorists. And the shooting of two Americans in Minnesota is really the result of the Department of Justice and the DHS working together to come down hard on those protesters. That is really causing heartburn and consternation for even Republicans who see their voters questioning, what is the Department of Justice doing here? Carol Lennig is senior investigative correspondent at MSNOW and co-author of the book Injustice, How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department.

10:29Thank you so much for joining us today, Carol. Thank you, Elsa. This episode was produced by Jeffrey Pierre and Connor Donovan. It was edited by Christopher Intagliata and Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yannigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Elsa Chang.