In recent cases, immigration enforcement has turned deadly. How did we get here?

0:00It's Consider This, where every day we go deep on one big news story. Today, understanding how immigration enforcement can turn deadly. Joanne Sebastian Duran Guerrero was 26. Lorenzo Salgado Arajo was 52. Alex Preddy and Renee Good were both 37. They were all shot and killed by federal immigration agents this year. Donald Trump promised that ICE enforcement in this country would target the worst of the worst. That's House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries speaking during a press conference Monday. But instead, billions of taxpayer dollars are being used by ICE to brutalize and kill American citizens and violently target law-abiding immigrant families and communities.

0:54Pretty and good. Both U.S. citizens died weeks apart in January in Minneapolis amid what the Trump administration called Operation Metro Surge. Fast forward six months to July and two more deaths involving immigration agents. Salgado Araujo, an immigrant from Mexico, was killed on July 7th during a traffic stop in Houston. Then on Monday, Daron Guerrero, who's from Colombia, was shot and killed in Maine, also during a traffic stop. Why is ICE there in the first place? Senator Angus King, an independent from Maine, told NPR Tuesday. They arrested over 200 people in Maine last winter. 19 of them had criminal records.

1:33This isn't about the worst of the worst. The whole premise of this thing is phony. They shouldn't have been there in the first place. Consider this. There is a lot we don't know about the specifics of these latest shootings. But to what extent is law enforcement training a factor? And can anything be done to keep people safe? We put those questions to a former U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner and police chief.

2:06From NPR, I'm Scott Detrow.

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3:25It's Consider This from NPR. There have been at least nine deaths tied to immigration enforcement actions since President Trump returned to the White House. Four of them have been this year. So what is going on? Is this normal? Should this be happening? These are just a few of the questions we're going to put now to Gil Kerlikowski He was U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner during the Obama administration. He also served as Seattle's chief of police. Welcome. Thank you. Let's start with this. Does the string of fatal shootings this year by federal immigration officers, does it alarm you?

3:58Well, it's far outside the numbers that would have occurred in the past. So it would be alarming. And if you were a police chief in a big city, you would be very alarmed. Obviously, nobody ever wants anybody to be shot and killed by officers. But what is normal? What is the expected rate? And how does this year compare to that? Well, there's no real expected rate because it can vary much by the city, by the density, by the population, etc. But for this federal agency to have this number of fatal encounters is alarming. and it should be concerning to everyone, particularly given the tactics that have been used that have led to these shootings.

4:46I'm curious, do you think it's more of the tactics that are leading to these incidents or just the fact that so many more actions are taking place? Well, we have a lot of actions taking place, and that means that you've got more potential for a violent encounter. But when people examine, experts like myself and others examine the tactics, They are so far outside the standard practices and policies of any professional law enforcement agency that it shocks the conscience. Walk me through some of those specific tactics that you're most concerned about. So you don't approach a vehicle and make a traffic stop by boxing it in.

5:27In law enforcement, that would be called a felony stop. That means that you have probable cause that that person in that car is wanted for a felony. And that's the kind of tactic that you would use. All too often, these same tactics are being used, and they're even not against the target that they were intended. The other thing is that law enforcement officers are trained in communities, rural and suburban and city, not to get in front of a vehicle. not to put your hands inside a vehicle. And yet we see repeatedly these ICE agents and Border Patrol agents stand in front of the vehicle. And several times now, including in some of these latest incidents, the initial justification from ICE, from Homeland Security, is that the person in the vehicle tried to use it as a weapon.

6:21That's the allegation. Do you think that entire incident could be avoided if officers were taking a different approach to these vehicles? Absolutely, and we've seen that. The evidence is abundantly clear in cities across the country where they have banned the shooting inside at a vehicle, an occupied vehicle. They have banned that, and you have seen arrests made. You've seen encounters occur in which violence doesn't happen. And so we know that the work that is done in these big cities could be appropriate for ICE, but they don't seem to be paying attention. From your point of view, with your expert vantage point, do you think this is because the officers involved have not been trained, or do you think this is a conscious decision to use these more aggressive tactics?

7:14I think that they haven't been trained to police in an urban environment. The Border Patrol works best on the border or within 25 miles of the border. They have no experience or expertise policing a city. ICE is very much the same way. That is not their training. And frankly, you could put them through weeks of training, and it wouldn't even begin to approximate what a city police officer goes through. What difference do body cameras make? Obviously, video footage made such a difference in figuring out what actually happened with Alex Preddy And then we learned in this Houston incident that the officers didn't have body cameras.

7:54Well, the body cameras in police departments across the country, and when I was commissioner at CBP, we tested them with the Border Patrol. And although the technology wasn't quite up to what it could be, what it should be, the focus group that I talked to was the Border Patrol agents thought they were fine. because in the vast majority of circumstances, the body camera video would support what they were saying. And police departments, you have officers that won't go out on patrol unless they do have a body camera because they know that it's going to, in most cases, support their actions. One specific step that's apparently taking place is that, according to Senator Angus King, he told NPR that U.S.

8:40Immigration and Customs Enforcement is going to pause non-urgent vehicle stops for now. Do you think that is a solid step forward? Do you think that makes a difference? Well, ever since Los Angeles, Chicago, Portland, Minneapolis, they have really tried to do their best to take themselves off the front pages. And of course, that's, I think, not for any particular reason other than that they're very concerned about the midterm elections. And these videos that have gone viral, these Kent State kind of videos, are going to come up again and again in November. So I'd love to say they're doing it for the right reasons.

9:18I'm just not sure. That is Gil Kerlikowski, U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner under President Obama. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. This episode was produced by Vincent Accavino, Caden Mills, and Karen Zamora with audio engineering by Ted Meebane. Our director is Jonas Adams. It was edited by Christopher Intagliata and Tinbeat Ermias. Our interim executive producer is Courtney Dorning.

9:46It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow. This season on Planet Money Summer School, we're going on a world tour. And first up, we're following the money down under. From Australia's market where people buy and sell water to how New Zealand is changing the way central banks fight inflation. Pack your bags and come along as we learn from the rest of the world. Planet Money Summer School. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

10:15Hi, it's me, Peter Sagal, host of Wait Wait Don't Tell Me. It's summer, and if you want to turn your pool party into a nerd fest, check out our news quiz. We got comedians, we got celebrities, we got games to help you laugh about the week's news. Yeah, that news. It'll be just like we're all hanging out at your backyard barbecue. Listen every week to Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.