Kimmel cancellation renews questions about free speech

0:00Before we get to today's Consider This, we've heard from listeners who say Consider This has become part of their daily routine, a way to make sense of things. If that's true for you, take a couple minutes and leave us a review. It's a small thing, but it really does help people find the show. Thanks. First, it was The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. You may have heard the news. Last week, we learned that The Late Show will be ending in May. and I want to. Now, Jimmy Kimmel Live is off the air indefinitely after ABC suspended its host. The fallout came after the comedian Jimmy Kimmel referenced Charlie Kirk's assassination during his Monday night monologue.

0:38We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from. Police haven't announced a motive for Kirk's killing. Kimmel's suggestion that the alleged shooter was a MAGA supporter got a stark reaction from the right. ABC's suspension came after threats that Brendan Carr, the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, made Wednesday night on the podcast The Benny Show. It's hosted by conservative commentator Benny Johnson. Here's what Carr said.

1:12I mean, look, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct, to take action, frankly, on Kimmel. or, you know, there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead. In that interview, Carr said the FCC could take action against the ABC affiliates who carry Jimmy Kimmel's show. And today aboard Air Force One, President Trump suggested the possibility of going further by revoking licenses of TV networks that, in his view, air negative things about him. They give me only bad publicity or press. I mean, if they're getting a license, I would think maybe their license should be taken away.

1:51It will be up to Brendan Carr. Consider this. The FCC is in charge of regulating broadcast media, but Kimmel's suspension raises questions about freedom of speech in the U.S. and about the FCC's role. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

2:19It's Consider This from NPR. Comedian Jimmy Kimmel being pulled off the air has taken the conversation around freedom of speech to a new level after Charlie Kirk's assassination had already ignited that debate. This is a pivotal moment in the country with lots of important questions that center on power, money, and democracy itself. I spoke about this moment with NPR senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, and I asked him why Kimmel's comment had such a strong reaction from Republicans. You know, after Kirk's assassination, the alleged shooter's motives were still not well known.

2:51I mean, there was discussion about the inscriptions of the bullets, the meme and gamer culture around them, and how some of this may have been prevalent with some who didn't like Kirk from the right. But, you know, we didn't ascribe motive because as journalists, we're trying to be as cautious as possible until the facts are made clear. But that doesn't stop the internet on either side from assuming what people want to conclude. Comedians and journalists, though, of course, not the same. The Federal Communications Commission has gotten involved and started the domino effect that apparently led to Kimmel being taken off the air indefinitely, according to ABC.

3:23What was the FCC's role here? Right. Really, we saw all of this start in motion after FCC Chairman Brendan Carr yesterday went on The Benny Show, a podcast hosted by Benny Johnson, a conservative right wing podcaster. Here's what he said. And they have a license granted by us at the FCC, and that comes with it an obligation to operate in the public interest. And we can get into some ways that we've been trying to reinvigorate the public interest and some changes that we've seen. But frankly, when you see stuff like this, I mean, look, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct, to take action, frankly, on Kimmel, or there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead.

4:05Yeah, I mean, Kimmel has a long history of just eviscerating Trump and other conservatives, and that's irritated them for years. Going after him in his show this way is similar to the playbook of operationalizing political retribution that we've seen from Trump here in his second term. Trump certainly said during the campaign that he was going to seek retribution, and he appointed a loyalist known for conservative views to run the FCC. Is it typical for the FCC to comment on individual performers or companies in this way? Historically, it hasn't been, but Carr has talked about wanting to rebalance the legacy media and have a more active FCC to do so.

4:41He cites the public interest standard, which he says is meant to hold broadcasters accountable for news distortion and broadcast hoaxes. Others disagree with how he's applying that standard, though. I said at the top that this is about power, money and democracy itself. Where does money factor in here? I mean, this is a marriage of politics and money, of course. I mean, let's follow the money here a little bit. And I think things become a little clearer. Nextar Media owns a lot of broadcast stations across the country. They are on the verge of merging with Tegna, a competitor. But there's a problem.

5:16FCC has put a limit on how wide the reach is supposed to be for local broadcasters. And with this merger, Nextar would exceed that. FCC Chairman Carr has said he's open to changing the rule and lifting the cap, calling it arcane and artificial. though there's some question as to whether the FCC can do it on its own or, you know, if they need Congress to do so. But follow the bouncing ball here. Carr goes on Benny Johnson's podcast. Just hours later, Nexstar announces that it's going to preempt Jimmy Kimmel live on all of its stations. And then Kimmel is pulled. It's not a far leap to understand that a lot of companies are doing what they can to stay in the good graces of the Trump administration because there's just a lot of money at stake.

5:56That was NPR senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro. To better understand the FCC's role and its power in this story, I also spoke with Tom Wheeler, who led the agency under President Obama. I first asked him what his reaction was to ABC's decision to suspend Kimmel. Well, you know, my reaction was to Brendan Carr's reaction to what ABC decided and the fact that what Kimmel had said, Because what Brendan did was come out and say to the affiliates, hey, you guys ought to do something about this, which is a highly unusual, if not unprecedented role for the chairman of the FCC.

6:39Unusual, unprecedented. Talk about the leverage that the FCC has over affiliates, saying not to Disney or ABC, you need to do something about this, but to the affiliates specifically. It's huge because the affiliates are Broadking on airwaves that are licensed by the FCC. And therefore, every heartbeat of the FCC chairman is something they pay a lot of attention to. And the shocking thing was when Brendan Carr comes out and says, well, we can do this two ways, the hard way or the easy way, that's really a subtle way of sounding like some B-movie actor saying it'd be a terrible thing. Some would argue it's not that subtle.

7:28Something would happen to that license. In that podcast interview, Carr said broadcasters, quote, are running the possibility of fines or license revocations from the FCC if we continue to run content with a pattern of news distortion. Of course, Kimmel doesn't work for the news division. He's a comedian. But can the FCC find or revoke licenses that distort news in the view of the chairman? No, that if this had gone to court, then I have absolutely no doubt that the First Amendment would have kicked in and there would not be authority in the statute even. But Ari, you know, there's something that's even more powerful here.

8:05It's far beyond the comments of a comic. And that is on the plane on the way back from Europe today, President Trump said that they should pull the licenses of any affiliates who are a quote against him, unquote. And it raised the dynamics of this whole thing beyond a late night comic to autocratic control of the media. Well, except if, as you say, the First Amendment would win in court, why is the media following what the FCC chairman or potentially the president wants? Because their future is controlled. Let me just give you one specific example. There is now a merger pending before the FCC of Nexstar, the largest station group in the country, and Tenga, another large station group.

9:01And the FCC not only has to approve that merger, but they also have to change the rules. Now, let's just think back. When was the last time we saw the FCC look at a broadcast merger? Oh, it was CBS. And Brendan Carr made it clear he would not approve that merger until CBS settled with Donald Trump on the specious suit about 60 minutes. So obviously there are business interests here. But to return to Brendan Carr's complaint, does the FCC have an obligation to make sure that broadcasters are accurate? it. The job of the FCC, of course, if there is a clear and misleading misrepresentation, if there is obscenity and things like this.

9:50But the fact of the matter is that this is a judgment call as to what is, quote, the public interest, unquote, interpretation. And Brendan Carr has just taken the vagueness of that term and turned it into a tool for the Trump administration to intimidate and coerce those that they license. Late night comedians have always criticized and mocked politicians. When you were chair of the FCC, did complaints about late night comedians ever cross your radar? Did you ever consider taking action against them? You know, I don't recall any late night comedian complaints. I recall other complaints, but I always believed that the First Amendment was principal here.

10:39Did those other complaints ever come from the White House? No. How important is that independence from the president and the administration? It's crucial. And that was the way that the Congress set up the FCC in 1934 to be an independent agency. But last February, Donald Trump issued an executive order overruling that and saying it's no longer an independent, that it will review all of its considered actions and final actions with the White House. President Obama, former President Obama, who you served when you were chair of the FCC, today tweeted, This is precisely the kind of government coercion that the First Amendment was designed to prevent, and media companies need to start standing up rather than capitulating to it.

11:26What kind of cost might a media company pay if they were to try to defy the federal government in a situation like this? I mean, you've said you think they would win in court. But even if they do eventually reach that ultimate outcome, what price do they pay in the meantime? So it's clear that the Trump administration is a vengeance-based administration and that there would be looking for opportunities to take a stick to them. You know, what we're looking at right now, Ari, is a new iteration of the cancel culture that Trump for so long had complained about. This is cancel culture 2.0, where you leverage the FCC to affect what people hear by influencing what media outlets can say.

12:17And do you think Trump's statement aboard Air Force One today that licenses could be revoked that cover him in what he deems an unflattering way could be the next step? Or do you think it's an idle threat? And it's frightening. And he threw it to Brendan Carr, said he's a great patriot, and I trust him to make the decision. But that kind of intimidation on matters protected by the First Amendment is absolutely outrageous. That was Tom Wheeler, former FCC chair and current visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution. This episode was produced by Alejandro Marquez-Hanse and Mark Rivers, with audio engineering by Ted Nibain and Tiffany Vera Castro.

13:04It was edited by Megan Pratz and Sarah Handel. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.