Maria Corina Machado has a plan for democracy in Venezuela

0:00It's Consider This from NPR, where every day we go deep on one big news story. Today, my conversation with Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado. I had interviewed Machado before, once when she was in hiding because of security threats from the authoritarian regime of Nicolas Maduro. And then we spoke a second time via Zoom. This time I was able to question her in person in our studios in Washington. We talked about many topics, including what it was like to be a political leader in hiding. It was quite a challenge, certainly in a personal, human way, not being able to touch or hug or see someone personally during a year and a half.

0:45But at the same time, how do I keep working? How do we turn these challenging, very extreme conditions, risky conditions into a possibility to grow, to grow organization, to grow our communication? I wanted to speak with Machado again because of the tricky position in which she finds herself. Last December, she left Venezuela in secret to accept the Nobel Peace Prize, a recognition of her work to promote democracy in her home country. Then, in January, U.S. military forces swooped in, captured Maduro, ousted him from power. Now he sits in an American prison, but Machado remains outside the country.

1:30Meanwhile, Maduro's former vice president, Delce Rodriguez, is in charge and enjoying President Trump's support. There's a spirit in Venezuela that they haven't had in many, many years. And the big companies are coming in now and they're building these giant rigs because there's a lot of oil in Venezuela, a lot of other things too, and a lot of great people. And we have people in charge that are doing a fantastic job. Machado, the opposition leader, says she plans to go back to Venezuela soon. And she vows not to rest until Venezuela is again a democracy. This is unstoppable. We won't give up.

2:06We will never give up. Venezuela will be free. Consider this. Many Venezuelans expected Maria Corina Machado to eventually become their president once Nicolas Maduro was out of power. But four months after the U.S. captured the authoritarian leader, Machado is still on the outside looking in. What is Venezuela's opposition leader planning to do next? From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

2:56Are We Doomed? Understand our biggest problems and what we can do. Part of the NPR Network. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

3:08It's Consider This from NPR. Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Carino Machado has not been back to her country since December when she traveled to Norway to receive her Nobel Peace Prize. A lot has changed in Venezuela since then, starting with the fact that authoritarian leader Nicolas Maduro is no longer in power. We invited Machado to NPR Studios in Washington to talk about what comes next for her and for Venezuela. Also to talk about her new book, The Freedom Manifesto. You're about to hear part of our conversation. there is a lot more you can listen to or watch in the latest episode of NPR's Newsmakers, our new video podcast where you can find NPR's biggest interviews.

3:52Let's start with your plans. You have said you would like to go back to Venezuela by the end of this year. What conditions need to be in place? What needs to happen for that to be possible? Well, since the day I was able to escape my country, I said that I wanted to go back as soon as possible. But certainly I had some... You left in December to go get your Nobel Peace Prize. And then everything changed in your country in January. Exactly. Okay. But at the same time, I knew I had some objectives to accomplish. One of them is precisely being banned from leaving Venezuela for over 12 years. Imagine so many people I have never met in person.

4:36So I had a very long list of global leaders and Venezuelans living abroad that I wanted to meet, to talk, to organize, to align views and actions. And that's what I've been doing in the last months and I'm planning to go back. Certainly, this is something that is being talked with and coordinated with the U.S. government. End of this year? That is still your time post? Oh, I think it's going to be much sooner than that. Like when? Like sooner. Days? Weeks? No, I prefer not to say that yet because, of course, there are elements of logistic, of security that I have to address. So to loop back to my question, I understand you don't want to get into specifics of your security arrangements, but what conditions need to be in place for you to be able to set foot in Venezuela?

5:35Well, I'm sure you're aware that I've been accused of everything from terrorism to murder just because we were able to organize a society and to defeat the regime by a landslide. That's really what started this brutal wave of repression against the Venezuelan people, me included. So basically, I had threats on my life, on my family, on my friends, on my colleagues. Most of them had to flee in order to save their lives. So what we expect is that the regime understands that things have changed dramatically. And certainly, the role the U.S. government is playing right now represents an element of pressure.

6:27for the regime not to act against many of the political actors and social actors that are starting to go back to Venezuela. So you need pressure from the U.S. and others on the current, the people currently ruling Venezuela to make sure that you will be safe to go home. Absolutely. What's the first thing you'll do when you land? Oh, wow. You're the opposition leader. Will you lead people into the streets in protest? Actually, I was thinking, and the first thing is, you know, smelling my country, touching our people, kissing the ground. No, we are the government elect, actually, not the opposition.

7:11We won an election. But having done that, and in order to facilitate and contribute to the path that President Trump and Secretary Rubio have stated, We have accepted that we should go into a new election to re-gelitimize what we already did. Imagine with the tough, extreme, unjust conditions we had in 2024, in which a third of the population of Venezuela who had been forced to leave were not allowed to vote. And we did win and we prove it with almost 70 % of the vote. Imagine what's going to happen with free and fair elections. What about just practically speaking? Do you have a checklist of what needs to get done?

8:02I'm thinking about things as basic but as essential as voting machines, voting rolls, electoral commission. Absolutely, we do. And regarding the technical part of the election, this is very hard for me to say, but we've turned in experts in how elections can be, you know, perverted. But we also turn ourselves into experts in how to overcome those conditions. So now we know precisely what ought to be done. And we want to turn Venezuela into a blueprint of elections that are trusted by everyone. Are you able to do any of that now with you still outside? Do you have people on the ground who are starting to put those things in motion?

8:54Yes, and not only in the ground, but as long as around the world. Imagine, you know, having a third of your population, you know, in all these countries in every single continent. And people are organizing so that, as I said, from a technical perspective, we believe that we could have these right elections, you know, really transparent, done in 40 weeks. That's roughly nine months once you start to make the political decisions to go forward. That means that a lot of things have to be done, not only regarding the integrity of the process. Nine months, so we're talking early 2027, you think, is the timeline?

9:36Well, if we start now, yes, or even the end of the year, but the political decision has to be made because there are other issues, not only the technical part of it. Just to say out loud, every time I interview you, I am struck by what a tricky position you are in, what a fine line you are walking. You need the support of the United States and of President Trump. You need it so badly you went to the White House and handed him your Nobel Peace Prize. But he has questioned your ability to lead, and he has openly supported your rivals. Well, I will go back to something I mentioned to you. I mean, President Trump is the only head of state in the world that has risked the lives of some of his citizens for the freedom of Venezuela.

10:29And this is something I will always recognize and our society is grateful for. I will close, if I may, with a more personal question, because you are a political leader. You're also a mom. You have three kids, all adults now. In your book, The Freedom Manifesto, you write that you feel guilty for what you have brought upon your family, and that it is perhaps the most difficult burden you carry. Why? Well, I have fought with guilt all my life. I don't know if that has happened to you. You and me both. I think women in our generation because, you know, we want it all. We want to serve our nation.

11:22We want to be good neighbors. We want to develop our careers. We want to be good sisters and daughters and friends and moms and wives. and it's hard to do it all the same. Well, and most of us have not had the experience you had of sending our children to live outside our country so that they would be safe. That was the hardest moment in my life. One day I was standing in front of the National Assembly and I started denouncing precisely corruption and drug trafficking and I stopped talking. I was frozen. And I only thought my daughter, my daughter, she's driving her car from the university to her home.

12:02So I sat down, I went home, and I told her, you're going, you're leaving. And she said, oh, no, Mom, I won't leave you alone. And I said, yes, you are. Yes, you are. You have to go. And it was the hardest day in my life because I had to choose. And I decided that in order to be a good mother and protect my children, but also to serve my country, I had to put my children in a safe place. And I'm very grateful because the U.S. was that place where they could study. and I wasn't able to be under graduation days. I was, through a screen, the only proud mom who wasn't present, and that's why I feel guilty.

12:43But at the same time, I've done it for them, for millions of children, I think, and love as mine as well. And because I know that they will be able to go back to a proud nation that will be an example of peace, freedom, justice, and opportunities for all in the future and will never, ever again suffer under a tyranny. Maria Corina Machado, Venezuelan political leader, author of the new book, The Freedom Manifesto, and mom, proud mom. Thank you very much. Very proud. Thank you. And for more of our conversation, find NPR's Newsmakers wherever you get podcasts. Follow or subscribe to the show on Spotify, YouTube, wherever you watch or listen.

13:29You can also find newsmakers in the NPR app. This episode was produced by Alejandra Marquez-Rantz, with audio engineering by Tiffany Vero Castro, David Greenberg, and Robert Rodriguez. It was edited by William Troop and Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.