Peeling paint, the reflecting pool and the case Trump can't let go

0:00It's Consider This, where every day we go deep on one big news story. Today, the case President Trump can't seem to let go. Well, I had heard reports for several days, almost a week, I think, before the 19th, that there was a lot of algae blooming in the reflecting pool and that there was a lot of peeling blue coating. That's David Hearn, known to most as Davey. He's a three-time U.S. Olympic canoeist. And back in June, his trip to see the newly remade Lincoln Memorial reflecting pool turned into vandalism charges. I'd been following the renovation project to some extent already because it's kind of right up my alley with the material science type of knowledge I have with my business.

0:41Hearn ran a business supplying materials for building canoes and kayaks. So when he heard the new coating was peeling, he says he was curious. So yeah, there's a real sort of an engineering scientific curiosity for me about what was going on. That's Hearn's account of why he went to the reflecting pool on Juneteenth. The story President Trump has been telling is very, very different. There was vandalism there. That's Trump speaking at the White House last week. And these guys knew what they were doing. And they cut all the way along the base. Cut, cut, cut. A federal judge dismissed the case after the U.S.

1:16attorney in Washington conceded the widespread damage was difficult to attribute to vandalism and pointed instead to problems with the installation. Now, I'm not saying I was 100 % thrilled with the contractor, but the contractor was rushing. We wanted to get it open for July 4th, and we got it done. Nevertheless, President Trump continues to insist that Hearn was responsible. But in addition, there was vandalism. Consider this. Even though prosecutors have dropped the charges against Hearn, is he still vulnerable? Coming up, we hear directly from A.B. Hearn.

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3:16It's Consider This from NPR. President Trump's Department of Justice walked away from the case against David Davey Hearn. But Trump will not do the same. He continues to insist it was so-called vandalism that led to peeling paint and blooming algae on the National Mall reflecting pool, not a botched repair project. What's it like to have the president beat the drum for your arrest? That's one of the questions I asked the three-time Olympian and his lawyer, Norm Eisen, when they stopped by NPR Studios on Monday. It's a hard position to be in as a regular private citizen. Went down to the reflecting pool on a bike ride and just was curious as a concerned citizen about what was happening down there.

3:57And, you know, this has just turned into an absurd, farcical situation in our nation's history, I suppose. Can you just explain, in your words, what it was that drew you to the pool, what you physically did or didn't do that day? because many different interpretations exist out there. Well, I had heard reports for several days, almost a week, I think, that there was a lot of algae blooming in the reflecting pool and that there was a lot of peeling blue coating. I'd been following the renovation project to some extent already because it's kind of right up my alley with the material science type of knowledge I have with my business that I ran.

4:42You'd have a waterproofing business for a long time. Yeah, everything you need to build your own canoe or kayak is one of the ways we would describe it. Yeah. And I'll probably leave it to Norm to take it from there. The reason Davey is doing that, Scott, is because the defense team has filed motion after motion, proving that the reflecting pool was the same before and after Davey touched it. Our very first motion filed on July 10th, the day after arraignment, introduced photographic proof into the record that, including using the government's own evidence, that the pool did not change before and after.

5:28So we told them in our motions again and again and again on Davies' behalf. Let's talk about U.S. Attorney Jeanine Pirro for a few minutes. I want to start with hearing a clip from that initial press conference when the charges were first unveiled. Let's listen to that for a moment. This is several weeks ago at this point. Because one of the most offensive images that I hold in my mind are the images of national monuments that are being defaced, roped. torn down, graffitied, and damaged by individuals. It was clear that this was taking a turn when you were initially arrested, but I'm wondering, Davey, how you sorted through how this became a top-tier presidential concern and how you sorted through the characterization that's quickly turned into when you heard Janine Pirro talking about it in that scope, in that scale.

6:23I've been a National Park Service volunteer in the C &O Canal National Historical Park for almost 20 years now. I've visited many, many national parks all across the country, traveling with my family over many years when I was young. My father was a field geologist in Northern California and Montana before that. And I am aware of, you know, you're supposed to leave nothing but footprints. that's all ingrained into my psyche from a very young age. So to be accused of damaging a national monument like this is completely outrageous for me. Davey, the question I've been wondering the whole time and I've wanted to ask you is whether you personally feel like our government is working for you, whether our system of checks and balances is working for you, Because on one hand, you are charged with this crime that I think by all accounts is not tethered to reality.

7:26On the other hand, it falls apart under the scrutiny of our federal court system, and it's dismissed. Is the system working? Yes. Well, on the one hand, we've got a Kafkaesque Orwellian situation here. But with the power of the law, the power of the courts, and my wonderful team, I feel very well equipped to contest this, to bring democracy back to me. Has the way you feel about this country that you've represented at the Olympic Games, has it changed at all this summer? My confidence is being tested for sure here in what our nation can withstand. But I don't think people are taking this lying down.

8:21I've had so much support from all of my biking buddies, my paddling buddies, my neighborhood friends, of course my family. It's been an overwhelming feeling. They have my back. It's David Hearn, along with his legal counsel, Norm Eisen. Thanks to both of you for coming in. Thank you. Thank you. This episode was produced by Jason Fuller and Lina Muhammad with audio engineering by Ted Meebane. Our director is Kai McNamee. Our interim executive producer is Courtney Dorning, who also edited today's episode, along with Patrick Jaron Wadanan. Before we go, a plug for our friends at Sources and Methods, NPR's national security podcast.

9:03They are hosting a live show at NPR headquarters in Washington, D.C. on Wednesday, September 9th. Host Mary Louise Kelly and former top intelligence officials will discuss the 25th anniversary of 9-11 and why that day is still shaping global events. Tickets go on sale tomorrow, Tuesday, August 11th.

9:25It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow. Attention! A PSA from Shortwave, NPR science podcast. You need to be paying more attention to your poop. I really do think that this deep stigma we have about talking about pooping is tied to these early-onset colorectal cancer cases. What to watch out for and how to decode the secret messages hidden in your poop. On Shortwave, listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Sources and Methods, is Iran trying to hack U.S. water systems? What is it that you can do to potentially, quote unquote, scare the American people? Water is one of those things that's a necessity of light.

10:09We unpack the week's biggest national security news on sources and methods. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts.