Trump and Zelenskyy meet again

0:00In the last few days, President Trump has met separately with the presidents of Russia and Ukraine in an attempt to break the deadlock and end the war. On Friday, he met Russian President Vladimir Putin at a high-profile summit in Alaska. Today, he once again welcomed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to the White House. Now, as you might recall, the last time Zelensky visited the White House back in February, things did not go well. You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards. Right now, you don't have your playing cards. You're playing guys.

0:37Tensions and voices rose as President Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance contended that Zelensky was not thankful enough for U.S. aid. Have you said thank you once? It's a long time. No, in this entire meeting, have you said thank you? A reporter even criticized Zelensky's casual attire. Why don't you wear a suit? Why don't you wear a suit? You're the highest level in this country's office and you refuse to wear a suit. Just want to see if you own a suit. The visit was cut short. Zelensky took off. No lunch, no joint press conference, no deal. Well, today's meeting started on a different note.

1:15As President Zelensky stepped out of his SUV, he was suited up in a black field jacket, a black collared shirt and black slacks. And so far, the tone has been decidedly different this time around. At a roundtable with European leaders, both Trump and Zelensky sounded optimistic. I believe a peace agreement at the end of all of this is something that's very attainable, and it can be done in the near future. I think that we had very good conversation with President Trump. Very good. And it really was the best one, or sorry, maybe the best one will be in the future. Consider this. With Russia's full-scale war on Ukraine now in its fourth year, President Trump has attempted to jumpstart negotiations between the two countries, But Putin and Zelensky still have not met face-to-face to negotiate a deal, and it's unclear whether they'll be able to find common ground.

2:09And a note, this episode was recorded at 5.30 p.m. Eastern Time.

2:17From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

2:27It's Consider This from NPR. Today, at the White House, an extraordinary gathering on very short notice of world leaders attempting to end the war that Russia started in Ukraine. President Trump has been trying to broker an agreement, meeting last week with Russia's president and today with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and seven other European leaders. But while Trump and the other leaders want to end the war, they don't agree on how. For more on this, we turn to NPR White House correspondent Daniel Kurtzleben. Hey, Daniel. Hey there. So these leaders are all at the White House right now.

3:04They did. We saw them. They spoke with reporters. They were at a big table with President Trump earlier. What do we know about what's going on? Well, they are meeting as we speak. And just before this meeting, like you said, they talked to reporters. And at that meeting, you heard European leaders politely but firmly push for Ukraine's interests. And one of those is security guarantees for Ukraine. Now, Trump said today that Putin is open to a guarantee. And over the weekend, his envoy Steve Witkoff gave a bit more detail on that, saying Putin is open to an Article 5-like guarantee for Ukraine.

3:37Now, that refers to NATO's Article 5, which says that an attack on one NATO country would be treated like an attack on all. But all of that said, it's still unclear what exactly such a guarantee would look like here. Not to mention what exactly Russia might be open to, because interestingly, we're hearing all this from the U.S. side, not from the Kremlin. Danielle, on a ceasefire, Trump has seemed to change his mind about whether one is needed. He said, yes, we've got to get an immediate ceasefire. Then he met Putin in Alaska on Friday. And after that, he said, let's just get into talks and try to work out a full peace deal.

4:10What did we hear on this today? Well, there appears to be some difference in opinion here. Ukraine, of course, wants a ceasefire. And you had Chancellor Merz of Germany and French President Macron really push for one as well. And here's what Merz said. He said the credibility of this work today depends on a ceasefire. I can't imagine that the next meeting would took place without a ceasefire. So let's work on that and let's try to put pressure on Russia. Now, a ceasefire would stop the fighting before negotiations can happen. That's what Ukraine wants. But aiming for a full peace deal right now, as Trump is now pushing for, means fighting continues, which means Ukraine potentially endures more and more attacks, potentially that Russia drags out the war and that Russia eventually just has more leverage.

4:58What about the issue of land swaps? That's the term Trump has been using. Well, Trump was the only leader to talk about this, interestingly. He said that Ukraine and Russia need to talk about this based on the, quote, current line of contact. But in the public remarks of the other leaders, it didn't come up. Now, this is a very contentious issue. Russia already annexed Crimea in 2014. Now it wants more of eastern Ukraine. Zelensky opposes that. So that is one of the biggest question marks we have going forward. And I just want to ask about the mood at the White House today. The last time Vladimir Zelensky paid a visit to the Oval Office, things went spectacularly off the rails.

5:38How about today? Well, there was a big contrast today. Zelensky and Trump and top officials, of course, argued in the Oval Office last February. Today was much more civil. There was a major contrast here. Zelensky seemed to make a point of being gracious and thankful. And he also dressed more formally, which Trump said he appreciated. Also, Zelensky and Trump were alone this time. It didn't have that one against many feeling. And real quick, what's next? Well, Trump said he plans to talk to Putin immediately after the meeting today and also that he wants to set up a trilateral meeting between himself, Zelensky and Putin.

6:13And Zelensky says he agrees. That was NPR White House correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben. For another perspective on these negotiations, let's turn to Susan Rice, who was serving as national security advisor to President Obama back when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. She was also a domestic policy advisor under President Biden. Susan Rice, welcome. Thanks, Mary Louise. Good to be with you. To what degree does today move the ball forward on ending the war? We saw a very different tone today at the White House than last Friday with Vladimir Putin in Alaska. I think it's very much unclear. We haven't heard the results of the main meeting with the Europeans and Zelensky quite yet.

6:55But Zelensky did characterize his bilateral with Trump as one of the best that he's had. So we have that to go on. It was very cordial, at least from what we could see when they came out and spoke about it afterwards. Zelensky thanking Trump over and over and over in contrast to the last time they met. It was definitely a contrast to the last time they met. and even the prolonged pool spray in the Oval Office, which preceded the meeting, largely avoided any rancor. But I think we have to set this against a larger backdrop, which is that President Trump went to Alaska, rolled out the red carpet quite literally for Vladimir Putin, and had gone in demanding a ceasefire and threatening sanctions should he not get that, walked away without a ceasefire, withdrew his threat of sanctions, and now we know he has adopted what is essentially the Russian position, which is that a ceasefire isn't necessary, even if it might yet be desirable, but rather to continue the fighting while prolonged negotiations ensue about a lasting peace.

8:06That is a position which several of the Europeans objected to publicly today, and that really puts the Ukrainians in a very difficult position because the killing and dying continues. The Russian attacks are relentless, and the longer the war goes on, the more we'll die and Putin's advantage remains. Let me ask you about the Europeans who were, as I said, out in full force at the White House. Zelensky brought a lot of backup today. It was quite the show of unity. How much does that matter? How much sway do they hold over President Trump or President Putin's next move? I think it matters quite a bit.

8:43I mean, to have Zelensky backed up by the most important European leaders and Trump showing them the deference and respect that they deserve as our core allies today is a statement of unity behind Zelensky, which has been needed. And I think that's why I'm very eager to see the outcome of the discussion, because, you know, in the public sessions, the president sort of has taken a position that sounds quite a bit like he's representing the Russian absence around the table. You know, Putin is very much committed to peace. Putin wants to end this war. There's nothing about what Putin did or said in Alaska that suggests that.

9:31Quite the opposite. it. But Trump was insisting that a ceasefire may not be necessary, that Putin really wants peace, that he's ready for a trilateral. So having the Europeans there with Zelensky backing him up and having Trump acknowledge their importance, I do think is an important step. As all of these leaders try to find some way to begin to bring this war to an end, To the point you just made, Susan Rice, have you seen anything that gives you any glimmer of hope that Vladimir Putin has stepped away from his fundamental view that Ukraine is Russia, that it must never join NATO, that its army must be defanged?

10:12I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that. Putin's own words in Alaska were quite clear. He continues to refer to root causes, continues to insist on Russia's interests predominating. He wants to see Ukraine subordinated, if not absorbed into Russia. And then today, Mary Louise, a very important statement out of the Russian foreign ministry, making it absolutely clear when we're talking about the very important issue on the table today of security guarantees, that Russia is still absolutely unwilling to see any Western forces in Ukraine as part of any kind of security guarantee. Well, this is interesting.

10:52Sorry to jump on you, but there were all kinds of questions about this today as the European leaders gathered and had this pool spray at the White House over this question of security assurances. The Trump team says they did. Trump envoy Steve Whitcoff has said it's a game changer. But we've seen nothing from Russia except possibly throwing some cold water on that. So what's going on? Not some, a whole lot of cold water. I don't know what's going on. There have been other occasions in which Mr. Whitkoff has misinterpreted or misunderstood what the Russian position is. I don't know if this is a case of that or if it's a Russian bait and switch.

11:29But what is clear is that the Russians have reiterated their longstanding position, that they will not countenance any kind of Western military or security presence in Ukraine. Just about 30 seconds left, but trilateral meeting, Putin, Zelensky, Trump at the table. Good idea. Well, I think that is the necessary next step if there is to be any progress toward resolving this. I'd like to again see what comes out of the discussion today. Zelensky obviously needs to be at the table. It's urgent and that's the only way forward. That is former National Security Advisor and former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice.

12:12Ambassador Rice, thanks. Thank you, Mary Louise. This episode was produced by Megan Lim and Mia Venkat. It was edited by Christopher Intagliata, Andrew Sussman, Tara Neal, and Nadia Lancey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yennigan.

12:32It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.