Ami Vitale on Photojournalism and Wildlife Conservation

0:04Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, bridging the gap between academic ideas and real world problems. Learn more at mercatis .org. For full transcript of every conversation, enhanced with helpful links, visit ConversationsWithT Tyler .com. Hello everyone and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today I'm chatting with Amy Vitale. She is a national geographic photographer, writer, speaker and documentary filmmaker. She's been a wartime conflict photographer for about 10 years. She is an important figure in the animal conservation movement and she's traveled to more than 100 countries.

0:47She's author of the 2018 bestselling book, Panda Love, and she is founder and director of a new nonprofit for arts education around the world called Vital Impact. You can see her work on her homepage if you google her that's Amy, Amy, Amy, Vitaly, and also on Instagram. Amy, welcome. Thank you, Tyler. It's wonderful to be with you today. Why is it that human panda keepers dress up as pandas? Well, the thinking was that pandas should never be comfortable around humans because humans are one of the biggest threats to most wild animals. And in this case, these were captive -born pandas who were being trained to go back to the wild because after one generation in captivity, they do not know how to survive in the wild.

1:40And so the lucky pandas that were chosen to be a part of this program, they didn't want them interacting with humans. And the main point about it is that these costumes, it was more, pandas go by smell, not sight. So the panda costumes were actually scented with panda urine. The thought was that they should not know that humans were around them. So you and I should stay scary to the pandas. We should stay scary to the pandas. And I don't know if it worked, but I thought it was a creative idea in China's efforts to get these pandas off the endangered species list. Now I understand that in the 1960s, the survival rate for panda babies was pretty low.

2:29I think you mentioned once 30%. And right now it's about 90%. What accounts for that difference? What is it we're getting right now? Well, it's such a great story. I mean, the truth is, I think the most important thing is that they did a great job of making the world fall in love with pandas, and more importantly, the people living closest to the pandas. Pandas were poached for a long time, and I think harsher policing, harsher laws if you poached a panda. And then really just making the world fall in love with this creature really did a lot for panda conservation. And then there was another piece which was they understood that the pandas were endangered in the wild.

3:15And so they did a few things. They had a breeding program because they wanted to have the number was 300 pandas in captivity in case they went extinct in the wild. And it was actually they managed to crack the code, learn how to breed them in captivity, and now are releasing them back into the wild. And then the last important piece of it is China is one of the few countries in the world where forest coverage is actually growing and they are Reforesting areas connecting existing corridors where pandas live so that they can move, you know, when there's there's droughts and there's bamboo Diofs and and basically giving them space to survive that is probably the most essential thing we can do around the world for all of wildlife.

4:04Speaking of breeding, can you explain to me the Darinian equilibrium with pandas? If I have this right, the females are fertile for only a few days a year and actually pandas themselves don't already know how to do it. Why would they have evolved that way? How does that make sense? I actually think that's a bit of a myth. You know, they were thought to be a species without a sex drive. But actually the truth is they're just very elusive animals and they do have this tiny window to breed. And when the factors in the wild are not so difficult for them, they're fine. I think a lot of it was deforestation, habitat fragmentation.

4:49And that was a huge piece of the breeding in the wild. but then in captivity, they were trying to breed them for about two decades with no success, and they didn't realize these two factors, one that they have this tiny window, and two that the females need choice to breed. So they can't, you just can't put any old male panda together with them. And once they kind of realized these two things, they have a very successful breeding program. And now scientists are rethinking this idea about the species without a sex drive they do. What's the proper allocation mechanism for pandas across countries, across zoos?

5:29So as I'm sure you know, the US is about to lose its pandas. Who should decide how pandas get allocated? That's a great question. I mean, to be honest, I think it's really a symbol of our relations and I think many people know this, but the panda was, you know, gifted in the beginning. They were gifted to countries and used as a diplomatic tool. And the first one was gifted to Nixon, I believe, in this country. I mean, I'm not a politician, so I don't know, but I get the sense that it is symbolic of what's happening between our I don't know the answer to this, but I think that the Chinese own these bears and it's, it is their choice to do and to loan them to whatever, you know, this is their choice.

6:25Do you think animals have rights of privacy at all? Oh, wow. I mean, now we're getting into territory that honestly, I I wish we didn't have to have captive animals. Ideally, we would not. I don't myself enjoy seeing animals in captivity and I think that we've come to such a place that in order to keep species alive, the reason that some species are still here with us today are because of scientists sort of seeing into the future and a lot of great conservation efforts are happening because of zoos. I mean let's switch this now to the case of the Northern White Rhino's. They would actually be extinct right now.

7:18If it were not for in the I believe it was the 60s I'm not sure on that but the the Dver -Crawlove Zoo brought Northern White rhinos from the wild into the zoo, and if it were not for them, they would now be extinct. So I have really mixed feelings about all of this until we get a better into a better place as human beings. I see a value, but not all zoos are the same, not all captive animals are the same. and I think we also need to change our understanding. I think Jane Goodall and many other people have figured out that these creatures are sentient, their intelligent life. And I actually was just speaking to a woman that did research on dolphins.

8:19And she said something very interesting. Dolphins have been around for many, many millions of years and she believes that they have evolved not just to have this heightened sense of empathy, but she believes that they actually understand that another dolphins suffering is their own suffering. And I really love thinking about this. I love this idea that if we as humans can really start to understand that all of our suffering is the suffering of others. Animals understand that. I think elephants understand that. I've witnessed that with orphaned herds and how much they care for each other. I think my great hope for humanity is that we too can evolve to really understand and feel one another's suffering and joy.

9:18And that to me is the only way we're going to exist in the future. Now as you probably know, there's a long standing and recurring set of debates between animal welfare advocates and environmentalists. And the animal welfare advocates typically have less sympathy for the predators because they in turn kill other animals. The environmentalists are more likely to think we should in some way leave nature alone as much as possible. Where do you stand on that debate? It depends. It depends what it's hard to make a general sweeping statement on this because in some cases I think that we do have to get involved and I think also the fact is it's humans in most cases who have really impacted the environment and we do need to get engaged and work to restore that balance.

10:14But I really fall on both sides of this. And I will say, you know, I do think that is, in some cases, what differentiates us, because we, you know, as human beings, like we have to kill to survive. And maybe that is where, you know, this... I feel like every story I work on has a different answer. And really, I don't know. It depends what the situation is. Should we bring animals back to landscapes where they have not existed for, you know, millions of years? I fall in the line of, of no. know, and maybe I'm taking this in a totally different direction. But yeah, it's really complicated. And there's not one easy answer.

11:09We have another conversations guest, Stuart Brand, as you probably know. He is trying to bring back, for instance, the William Ameth. Why shouldn't we do it? And the dodo and the thylacene. And more to come, perhaps, right? Well, you know, when I first heard about the story to bring back these extinct species, I thought it was a waste of money and insane. And then I actually met people from the Colossal projects and I've really changed my thinking on this. I think that they, in some cases, I don't know that they'll get there in our lifetime, but they have a really good argument for the woolly mammoth.

11:52They believe that bringing species back to landscapes where they've been gone can serve in a function in the same way, bringing wolves back to yellow soon is so it restores the ecosystem and restores that balance that is missing. And so they believe that by bringing the woolly mammoth back, they will churn up that soil and kind of serve in the way that bison served in the landscapes here in Montana, the same thing happened. I'll explain that a little more, that you need to keep that land healthy. When you don't have the hooves and the animals grazing and working that landscape, it actually starts to suffer.

12:44You need all these animals to create a healthy ecosystem. When you take out the keystone species, the whole land starts to suffer and it trickles down to all the different species. So their thinking is by bringing the woolly mammoth back, it's going to restore the landscape. I actually think they have a much more interesting function, which as a company, they actually are working with species that are close to extinction, but are still here. For example, they're teaming up with the Northern White Rhino and the Biosque Project. And they're going to be using, they're basically adding genetic diversity back to the embryos that they've created.

13:28So the Biosque Project has created 29 viable embryos that they'll use southern white rhino surrogates to restore this species. They only have two northern white rhino females alive and they're using just one female her eggs to create these embryos.

13:55They need more genetic diversity. I think that they have a really important value and whether woolly mammoths are brought back maybe it will happen in 100 years. From now I don't know if we'll see this in our lifetime maybe we will. But I think that there's value more for the species that are currently here. We need to help the species, these keystone species, because actually I've seen it. I've seen environments like I work a lot in northern Kenya and there are landscapes where keystone species have been locally extinct for about 30 years and you really see how it starts to impact the entire ecosystem.

14:43And then I've seen the reverse where they brought back these animals to these ecosystems and it's amazing how resilient nature is when they give it a chance. You bring it back. We've seen examples in Yellowstone in Northern Kenya when they brought rhinos and elephants back to these landscapes. And literally within five, ten years, you start to see the whole environment start to heal. For example, elephants like tread up back grass, they're like huge mobile composting units. The grass starts to grow, other species return, then it ultimately helps human beings. So I see all of us, I think that's the main thing, is like how do we start to see that we are part of this beautiful web and that every piece matters.

15:36So back to Stuart and his work with Colossal, I see a value in it and I was very suspicious because you know it's you know I think very often people use these headlines to get to get attention and you have to kind of read through the headlines and really understand what is is happening and in this case I see some value there. Now you have a movie on your homepage which I would recommend to everyone where you're spending a lot of time photographing and filming rhinos. Why isn't that more dangerous than it seems to be? Well, the rhinos that I'm working with were born in captivity, sadly. So they are used to humans.

16:19I don't recommend working with wild rhinos in the same way. And actually, these rhinos know my smell. They know who I am. I've been working with them now for over 15 years. But I think the saddest part of this story is the loss of a wild. There are no more wild northern white rhinos. And I would say, you know, that to me is the biggest tragedy. I feel like when we, you know, it's not just the loss of an ecosystem, which is, you know, important in itself, you know, on this other level, I feel like we are losing something so, so much a part of ourselves. Like, we're losing what it means to be wild.

17:03We are animals too. And when we lose all these wild animals, we're losing what it means to be wild. And on a philosophical level, I realize it's like a loss of wonder and the wild of who we are when we lose so many species. I'm sure all your listeners understand that we're going through the six mass extinction, which is purely human driven. And to me, it's like, I feel like we're losing a piece of ourselves right now. Do Kenyan villagers wish there were more elephants or fewer elephants around? Oh, great question. It depends who you ask. And I'm glad you brought up Kenia. I think Kenya is one of the greatest success stories right now.

17:54So, they have really made this incredible shift from, you know, 20, 30 years ago. They all, all of their, you know, rhinos and elephants and so many other species were being poached to extinction. And Kenya made this big shift. So today, the greatest threat to these species is not poaching. It is actually climate change. And how did they do it? How is Kenya so different from other countries? Well, I think it's a few things. It's greater policing, stricter laws, but the main thing is there is community engagement in protecting these creatures. the communities living closest to the animals understand their value to them.

18:51And so, you know, during the pandemic, when the tourism stopped and so many other countries were facing poaching levels that had never been seen. For example, in South Africa, during the pandemic over 400 rhinos were poached. Guess how many rhinos were poached in Kenya? Zero. Why is that? It's because the communities understood that they need these wild animals, not just for healthy ecosystems, for their own survival. They understood that tourists need them for tourism, they need them for healthy ecosystem. So it's not that these animals are difficult. They will come in and eat farmers crops in one day that they've spent months cultivating.

19:42These animals are dangerous. They're wild animals. They present threats to people. I think in the West we no longer understand what it means to live with wild animals. People in many places around the world understand what it is to live with wild animals. But I think Kenyans actually understand that they need to protect these animals and the government is more involved in trying to support communities when elephants and rhinos and you know there's loss of life, loss of crops. And they're trying to actively figure out ways how do you coexist with these creatures. But I love that you brought up Kenya because honestly as foreigners it is a place that all of us can go, our tourism dollars can make a huge impact.

20:34I think as we're all in this big ecosystem and we need to figure out where we should support conservation efforts and Kenya is one of them because if you take the time to figure out where your tourism dollars are going to support communities that is going to have a huge impact on how the communities take care of the wildlife. What did you find to be most surprising or most interesting in the culture of the Samburu in northern Kenya. Well, I keep learning, but I think that they teach me so much. I think that it's really important to remember the communities living with the wildlife are their greatest protectors.

21:21That is the case with the Samburu, certainly. I met them, gosh, now it's 13, 14 years ago, and they had a dream back then to protect the wildlife. That community also suffered gangs of poachers coming in and poaching the wildlife and this was a community pushing back and saying we need to protect the wildlife because we need them for our own survival too. And so against all odds, you know, they they created the first indigenous -owned elephant sanctuary in all of Africa. And you know back when I first met them it It was just a dream and many people laughed at them and thought, there's no way you're going to be able to make an elephant sanctuary because they're expensive and you don't have the political power, you don't have the funding, but they did it.

22:15And I've been following along on their journey and it's really extraordinary. It's called Ritetty Elephant Sanctuary. I hope anybody interested who has the means can go and visit this place because what they're doing is changing not just how people they're relate to wild animals, but how they relate to each other. It's also the first elephant sanctuary that hires indigenous women to be elephant keepers. And a very patriarchal co -social society. And it's transforming a lot. And they're doing things differently there. It's so interesting. like another story, they've made huge impacts in our understanding of elephant behavior.

23:02And also, one of the great discoveries during the pandemic was they were worried about what would happen. So when an elephant is orphaned, they have to switch overnight from drinking its mother's milk to drinking a powdered milk formula that is really made for human babies. And 50 % of the time around the world in all elephant sanctuaries, that is the most dangerous time for orphans. They come into the sanctuary and they often can't handle that transition from drinking their own mother's milk to a powdered milk formula. And so 50 % of the time they die. So Riteti got worried during the pandemic about what would happen if we can't even get a hold of the powdered milk formula because of supply chains breaking down.

23:53So they started looking at nature for solutions. And they discovered that goats eat the same brows, the same vegetation as elephants do. They started experimenting, and they made perhaps one of their greatest discoveries. They went from a 50 % survival rate to a 98 % survival rate. So now these babies come into the sanctuary, and they're able to make that transition. And then another piece of the story, which I love, is that all that money that was being sent outside the country to big multinational milk companies are now that money is all staying within the community. And I went with the milk mamas is what they call them.

24:37It's the women San Bruru who own the goats and they set up bank accounts for the first time in their lives. They're able to send their kids to school, to have money for healthcare. It's absolutely changing the whole community and the people there always tell me, it's not us saving the baby elephants. The elephants are saving us. And I just love watching all the discoveries they keep making. And they have had a long relationship over generations, you know, living with wildlife and they have so much, I think, to teach all of us. I think there is this great understanding happening around the world that there's so much knowledge.

25:24We, as, you know, Westerners, I think, need to start listening to some of the knowledge that is right there with the people living closest to these creatures. Now, you did conflict photojournalism for about 10 years. I mean, at risk of side, was it fun? No. Why do it for 10 years? Oh, I think it was the extraordinary people I met and it began because I just wanted to understand this world and why we have this so much suffering and how do these conflicts emerge? I mean, I was never one of those adrenaline junkies. I mean, so many of my friends really, you know, hopped from one conflict to the next, and it was like parachute journalism.

26:17And I, in the beginning, started my career, and I was asked to go to actually the first conflict I covered was Gaza. And then I was asked to actually know the first was Kosovo and the Balkan conflict, and then to Gaza and the second in Tvada. and I actually immediately understood that I could not do parachute journalism, that it is really important to take time to understand these stories that we're covering. And I think what I mean, I ended up living in Kashmir for four years to cover the war between India and Pakistan and taking that time to listen, to truly hear people's stories. But I think what drew me in was the people I met.

27:08I mean, I am always shocked in these places that are so brutal, where you see the worst of humanity. I also met the people, the best of humanity, that taught me so much. They kept me coming back. And I think after 10 years of that, that's when I really shifted. and I was broken and raw and wanted to quit. And I was then, I really began to realize this connection that I had been telling these stories about people in the human condition, but at the backdrop of every single one of them was always the natural world. And that was my profound awakening, I think, when I began to understand that in every single example, Well, not every example, but in many of them, it was scarcity of basic resources like water and others, a changing climate and loss of fertile lands.

28:08But almost always, it is the demands placed on our ecosystem that drives conflict and human suffering. And I think that that was my big shift and understanding that it was important to talk about the conflicts, but it was equally as important to talk about what we're doing to this planet because you can, I mean, just in this last year alone, how many more conflicts have started around the world? How many more coups? And I think in Africa, just this year, maybe the last six months, is it six or seven more coups? And I mean, Tyler, you know this better than I, but I see it. And I think to not acknowledge that connection is ignorant.

28:56We need to start paying attention to that. And I think we're going to see so many more conflicts if we do not pay attention. And to focus on what do we do? It's not enough as a journalist. That was something else that made me deeply uncomfortable, which is I was asked to focus on the violence, show just one piece of the story. And never was I asked to tell the stories that acknowledge like where we go, what do we do, where are the solutions, are there solutions? I know there's no easy ball and no solution for so many of these problems, but the truth is in every story I've covered, there are amazing people who are working to try to find answers, but we don't highlight their work.

29:45And I think as journalists, we have to do a better job of not just talking about the challenges we face, but like where do we go from here? What do we do? And there are people in every single story that we need to focus on their stories as well. What was it you did in year 9 to keep yourself from going crazy from the stress, the destruction, the sorrow? So you did this for 10 years, right? You enter year nine. It must be very tough. Well, in year nine, no, I was broken and honestly, I didn't know what to do in year nine. It was either, I mean, I was very depressed and didn't know whether I would carry on.

30:31And many times I thought about quitting and it was actually in those examples in year nine I realized that I had examples when I realized the power of what we do that stopped me from quitting. I realized it was in those moments when you want to quit that you never give up because what we do is actually very powerful and I had examples of seen, you know, the fact that I always chose to go to tell stories that not a lot of journalists were covering. And I realized that sometimes it was getting those images back into the international, you know, dialogue, it was important and that's what I needed to say.

31:17But I think in year nine, you didn't want to know me. I was really depressed and not in a good place. And then I think year 10, and I realized that's when I really understood that one, I needed to take a break and step away from covering the horrors of the world because I was not able to think clearly. And I think that actually that is how so many of my colleagues end up getting killed because you don't know when to stop and take a break because you need to be 100 % present and clear about what's happening in front of you. And I think if you're so broken, you can't do that. And so in year 10, I took a break.

32:02And in that break, a conservation organization approached me and asked me to do work talking about forests and how important they are. And that's also when I began my story on the Northern White Rhino's. That was the moment I began to understand that connection to the natural world and that I needed to also tell the stories about the natural world and how connected they are to all of these conflicts. I believe you started your career photographing business people. Was that fun? No, I did not enjoy it at all. But I did enjoy. I moved to the Czech Republic in a very exciting moment in their history.