Conversations with Tyler 2024 Retrospective

26:06Okay. So that's impact, and I'm sure it will be magnificent. That's wonderful. Who is your most difficult prep you think looking over this list this year? Most difficult prep. Oh, it's probably Stephen Kotkin that took the most reading and then Alan Taylor. They're the two historians Almost always historians are the hardest but another difficult prep was Philip Ball who wrote so many books on science Science you can't prep for history. You can just read more books Yeah, and if you're an economist you know some history anyway through economic history But a body of work in science. It's like oh, do I start reading a biology text or something?

26:41So he was hard as well. Another reason Kotkin and Alan Taylor underrated then is you've got to make Tyler's prep worth it. Well, I learn more from doing those people. So say when I did Joseph Stiglitz, I'd already read his major pieces, indeed many of his minor pieces over the years, it hardly took any prep. But I learned less too. So another guess that's had a big impact on you, Rick Rubin, this is related to that. If you were a DJ in a different life, what kind of music would you play and where would you perform also what would same question for DJ Tyrone? That's from Bart DeRouce. Well, I love music of all sorts.

27:25I've done some DJing for Rick and I played for him a lot of what is misnamed world music but from different countries such as Madagascar or Pygmy music or you know Algerian rap or whatever. I love playing Paul McCartney for people. I feel I know that area very well. We have an episode coming up with Ian Leslie and he'd better be ready because I'm ready. I don't need to prep for him. He has this new book coming out on John Lennon and Paul McCartney. I feel I've never been more ready for an episode. I think with DJing you should surprise people and mix in a lot of different things. And Tyrone would feel the same way.

28:02But what would his artist be? Maybe he'd just play a tonal music for people. But Tyler would do that too. So Tyler and Tyrone merge. Yeah. When it comes to music, Tyler has a little more empathy for the group. I'm not sure about that. Any update on Jonas, the person in Ethiopia you supported. He and his wife had another baby. The war is over in the immediate sense. Their food problems have been alleviated. He does not have enough money to complete his house, which is a big problem for him. They're back on their feet, but it's very tough. And tourist demand for the business he wanted to create has not materialized because of the war.

28:43He's performed very admirably, but Ethiopia has let him down, I would say. I think you commented at the time, it was more difficult than it should have been to get him the money when you supported him. It required some jumping through hoops. Is that still the case? I now have an electronic payments network set up. The first time I used it, my bank canceled my account. I had to go in person because it does look sketchy to be sending just a single transfer to Ethiopia, all of a sudden. And I think that's resolved, but I'm afraid. the next time I send, they'll cancel my account again. So I don't know, we'll see.

29:22Payments in the United States is still screwed up. Stripe is done amazing work. I hope they keep on going. I'm pretty sure they will, but it still all needs fixing. All right, question from DB, respectfully, and in a spirit of good intention. Uh -oh. It's not as bad as you think. Why is it that you seem to dislike measures to make practical cycling in cities safer and more comfortable? So you've had a number of posts where you, You kind of say that the idea that people, I think Craig may have them wrong, but the way I would summarize you is you think it's without evidence, you know, installing bike lanes and these things, the ROI is not there to you.

30:00Is that fair? Correct. As far as I can tell, from the numbers I've seen, use of DC bike lanes has been declining. I suspect it's not the future. It's a relatively slow and late 19th century mode of transport. If you look at downtown Washington, it's much harder to drive around in. I get that's partly by design, but there is a real economic cost to that. And the bike lanes are mostly empty. It does seem to work for a much of Manhattan. I think one should be an empiricist. I know Amsterdam and Copenhagen quite well. It works great there. Houston decided not to do it. That was almost certainly the correct decision.

30:38So one should be an empiricist. And I think bike lanes are by the people I come into contact with very much overrated. If you ask the simple question, where's the cost benefit analysis that adds up all the costs? I never see it. No one has ever sent me one. Ever. And I did a long post. There were a large number of comments. People would say things like, oh, you dummy. Don't you see Copenhagen's a great city? Yes, it is. It's worked well there. But at the margin, how many American cities should make big investments in this direction? I still want to see the cost benefit analysis and no one's coming up with it.

31:13All right. And if you send me one that is serious in taking all the costs into account, including the cost of the land, I will read it and indeed review it. But some kind of partial, oh, here's a few people who were better off because we've put bike lanes in. I'll look at it, but no, I'm not going to review that. And that's what people have been sending me. You've published your list of the best new books of the year and we'll get to those, at for 2014, what about the best new ideas that's from Bob Ewing? Do we have new ideas? I mean, generative AI, you wouldn't quite call it a new idea, but it has reached new peaks and the very best models.

31:52Obviously, O1 Pro for GPT is right now the best model and it's just astonishing. It beats humans at most things today or as that yesterday the new Google video model came out. I haven't played around with it yet. People say it's incredible. So those are the new ideas that matter. And the rest is often people just spinning their wheels. It's not a great time for like new ideas in books. The new ideas are all stuff, also in biomedicine. And it's just been incredible. Mind blowing. You've said before that the best ideas are the things people do, they're embedded in the projects people do. So like LLMs would be one.

32:31But that's a recent development. So say 10, 15 years ago, you had all these new semi -popular, semi -serious science economics books. A lot of them had new ideas. You could say Jared Diamond started that trend. It now seems to me mostly over. Those books seem a bit flat at the moment. And yeah, we're waiting for people to reinvent the book. We tried our own version of that. Thank you again for your help with GoatheConGoat .ai. But those are the new ideas or doing things. Well, what about maybe we're stretching what's an idea, but versus saying initiative, but in the policy world we have Doge. Would you count that as a new idea?

33:11I'm all for it. I hope it succeeds, but I don't think it's a new idea. If you read David Stockman's old book, The Triumph of Politics, they try a diversion of that in the first term of the Reagan administration. It didn't work. They're trying it again. I think they'll try harder and with the benefit of knowledge of failures in the meantime, But no, I don't see it as a new idea. Okay. Well, we're also going to have Jennifer Parker on to talk more about that in the new year. So look out for that one. And settling Mars is not a new idea. Right. Let's root for it, but it'll be tough and it's not new.

33:45All right. What supplements do you take? How do you feel about the life extension projects that are out and about? That's for Nicholas Kraus. I drink mineral water. Does that count as a supplement? Why not? I don't take a lot of medications, right? I don't take medications in general. I'm skeptical. I think life expectancy will continue to increase slowly. My guess is there's some natural limit due to the brain somewhere between 100 and 120. And I don't see how you repair the brain without replacing who is the person. So I don't think individuals can live forever. But to get to the point where large numbers of people lulubuckle their seat belts live well into their 90s.

34:29I expect where on the way to doing that right now, your kids might be able to expect to live well into their 90s, for instance. How long would you like to live in an ideal world in your body? As long as I can. As long as there is history to follow, I won't be bored. So I'm not worried about that. I'm the same way. Some people say, no, I don't want to live forever because then all of your people around you presumably will start dying unless they're just also, I guess, buckling their seat belts and taking the same non -supplements you are. I already know a lot of people have passed away. It's terrible, but I've kept on going.

35:11Yeah. I don't know. I like it. And I have a lot of new friends also. You have to, you know, as you get older, you need to make real efforts that make and keep new friends. But you can do it. And if you have a brick rubin or gnome dormin, there are like pretty, pretty good. new friends for me. Yeah, to me, to be maybe a little glib, it's sort of like not getting a new pet because your old pet died. And just being a little fatalistic of like, I'm not going to bring joy into my life because that joy might end. I don't know. If there's anyone out there who can help me with this, I'd love to live longer than, than say, 80 or 90.

35:44A lot of emerging ventures winners are working on this. My guess is they'll simply help us live to 100, which is still a great investment. But many of them think aging is a specific thing that can be stopped or reversed or cured, like you can cure a disease. I hope they're right. We've made bets on them, but if you just ask me what I think, I do think there's an upper limit that is more or less worthy, oldest living people live to today, which is like about 110, perhaps. Maybe we can get that up to 120. Mm -hmm. ListenerPK asks, How do you invest your own money? Buy, hold, and diversify. I do very little.

36:23I don't sell things. Don't really rebalance as I save more, buy more stuff. And that's it. There's nothing interesting about that story. I don't think I can beat the market and I don't try to. I'm wondering if they, I should say, are also asking this question because of your challenge to people to short the market if they're bearish on things. Have you ever yourself taken out of financial position that kind of bet on your belief in that way? I've never shorted anything. Note that my wife works for the SEC, so I'm not allowed to short anything, legally. In fact, a lot of individual stocks I can't buy.

37:00All I can do, it's in fact what I want to do anyway, but is by hold and diversify. But I have no degrees of freedom in this. So, take make of that what you will. And I'm optimistic. I don't want to short the market, even if I could. Okay, let's move on to pop culture picks. So for many, many years on the marginal revolution you've been listing your favorite nonfiction fiction movies from the year is tradition on this show to look back a decade ago. So in this case, 2014 and look at your picks. I always forget to prep for this and I ought to know by now I'm silly. So 2014 also coincides. I joined Mercatus in October 2014.

37:40So the snake is kind of eating the tail here where up to now these picks have been before I join Mercatus and before CWT got started. But next year when we do this, CWT will have begun. Perhaps that will be reflected in the list. Now starting with nonfiction, there are a lot. There are way too many, I think, to go by one by one. So let me just mention the ones where there is some connection with CWT. So interestingly, one of the books you mentioned was Stephen Kutgenstall and Volume One. So that was one of the greatest biographies of all time. Yep. An incredible achievement. We got Adam Tews, The Day Lush, The Great War, and the Remaking of World Order, 1916, 1931.

38:23You say it starts low, but after about 13 % becomes fascinating, especially about the internal politics in Germany and Russia. I must have read that on Kindle if I said 13 % so there you go you were at we've got twos and Kotkin on there twos was on I think in 2020 other books that you mentioned I can't they're probably maybe 30 books listed here but we have picketies second machine age Tim Hartford had a book mega McCartle's upside it down Lane Kenworthy on social democracy these are all people that are kind of in -your -network, you say, fourth revolution by John Michael Thwate, Daniel Dresner, the system worked, Frank Buckley, why the Canadian sister government is better, Russ Roberts, how Adam Smith can change your life, so there's another CD.

39:07I'm not sure the Frank Buckley book is held up well. Okay. And Christopher E. Lund just resigned as we're recording. And Trudeau is very unpopular and Canada is still in a recession. Mm -hmm. Now, is that due to their system of government? You can debate, but I suspect Frank himself might revisit that claim. Other books I'll run through them, you can interrupt me if something jumps out at you. Jürgen Ostherhamel, the transformation of the world at global history of the 19th century. I'd love to read more from him, but it seems to me that book probably took him 30 years, and I wonder when the next one is coming.

39:38You said it was long exhausting and wonderful. Christopher Hale, Massacre in Malaya, or Malaya. Howard Island and Michael W. Jennings, Walter Benjamin in Critical Life. The very revved John Drury. music at midnight, the life and poetry of George Herbert. That was a great book. That might have been the best book of that year. Everyone should read that. John Kaye, Midnight's Descendants, a history of South Asia since partition, Alice Goffman on the run, fugitive life in an American city. She got in trouble for that book. People claimed she got too close to her subjects or was involved in whatever.

40:14I don't want to repeat allegations, but it's become quite controversial. Okay. Many others, but I'll end on this one that I missed. Another CWT connection. You mentioned Tom Holland's translation of Herod's His histories. And he was a great guest and has an amazing podcast. He does. They are a force of nature. Often the number one podcast in the UK and I think, probably top, you know, whatever, maybe top 25, top 100 in the US. Yes, they're a model for Alex for the marginal revolution podcast. In fact, I know he went to a live show and they they can sell out venues and I also thought about, well, maybe we should just try to call your podcast the rest is economics and just join their family.

41:01But we went with larger revolution. It's dead. Okay, let's there are many more. You can check the post listeners if you want some other ones. But let's move on to fiction. Michael Faber, the book of strange new things. Sober my wife lover that book. She asked me about it like a day ago or two days ago. Yeah, great book. I still think about it. I read that when I hear recommendation and enjoyed it. A manual. Carriere. Carriere. I'm not sure if I'm saying that right. Limonov, the outrageous adventures of the radical Soviet poet who became a bum in New York, a sensation in France and a political anti -hero in Russia.

41:38He's done very well. We should consider him as a guest. About a week ago, I read his new book about the trials of the Islamic terrorists in France. That's excellent. He's just racking up successes. Andre Neumann talking to ourselves. Not ringing a bell with me. That's not a stuck. Javier Circus or Kirkus outlaws a novel. Oh sure, Circus. He's a great Spanish writer. Very good. Again, he has a number of important books, Not that well known in the English -speaking world. Mm -hmm. Quality. Richard Flanagan, the narrow road to the deep north. And he had a book this year that Henry Oliver just reviewed.

42:16Again, he's done very well. Someone also we should consider having as a guest. Hassan Blossom, the corpse exhibition and the other stories of Iraq. Yeah, hasn't stuck with me. And... But let's do Richard Flanagan. Okay, Richard Flanagan. Yeah. Andy Weir, the Martian. Incredible guest. Great book. Yes. And he's still on a roll and I'm dying for the next one. I am very excited. So I read Project Hail Mary a year or two ago. I thought that book was excellent. It's like the Martian, but it's better even better because there's there's more of a plot than just a thought exercise, which is what a people loved about the Martian is.

42:53It's this extended thought exercise. It's got that in Project Hail Mary, but also a really exciting narrative. They're making a movie. Think Lord and Miller or Attachio, Lord and Miller are known for their kind of comedy. I'm very excited to see how that one turns out. So I feel I'm picking good authors, actually, people who have held up and done even better. Last one, Jeffrey Hill broken hierarchies and poems 1952 to 2012. He passed away, I think, a few years ago. He's a brilliant conceptual poet. I'm not sure when it goes back to him, but I'm not sure what needs to. Strong thinker and writer.

43:31All right, those are your fiction picks. Let's move on to best movies. You say, kicking it off, I found this to be a diffuse year in movies when where old -style mainline releases lost their grip and open up the market for more quality and diversity. My cinematic self came away from the You're quite happy, without a clear favorite or a definite sense of which movies will last the ages. Well, let's see how well they've aged over 10 years. The Invisible Woman, the secret, which is about the secret love life of Charles Dickens. You remember that one? Excellent movie. I was thinking I should watch it again.

44:03Particle fever. Particle fever. Was that the documentary? It's a science documentary about the Hadron Collider. Yeah. Dripping to watch, probably out of date, but good background. Yeah. I'd still recommend it. The weekend, a brutal tale of a vacation and a marriage collapsing. Gotta be strong to watch that one, but for some people, yes, go ahead. Under the skin, the Scarlet Johansson movie. Incredible, right? And it's held up very well. It's become a famous movie and book. The lunch box. That's the Indian one. Yes. About logistics in India, way ahead of its time, and showing you what India is good at accomplishing.

44:44So highly instructive movie and a lot of fun. Viola and Argentinian take on Shakespeare's twelfth night. You remember that one? Yeah, there are more good Shakespeare movies than people think, but the good ones are all really weird. Like Chimes at midnight or the one with Leonardo DiCaprio and Claire Daines where they do Romeo and Juliet with Haitian voodoo. So yeah, that's another one. A touch of sin. This is a Chinese movie. It's become an all -time classic, maybe the greatest Chinese movie ever made. I can't pronounce his name, but it's what Z -H -A -N -G -K -E. It's an absolutely must -watch on the big screen if you can.

45:21Godzilla. This was the one with like Brian Cranston was the lead. There's been so many Godzilla movies, but this one was just called Godzilla. I try to see them all. I never regret it. I can't quite defend them, but that itself tells you something about aesthetics. Yeah, this is the one directed by Garrett Edwards. words. I don't know which one I meant. But again, I've never regretted seeing a single Godzilla movie in my entire life. Transformers 4. That's the great one. Again, it has become iconic. It's just action every moment, visually complex, highly inventive, and is underrated by serious film critics.

45:59And I don't like the other Transformers movies. They're just silly, but not for. I know. I know. You're making me want to watch Transformers 4. I never I dropped out on the Transformers series. You were rational. Yet the world will surprise us sometimes. Obvious child. Give me some more context. Let me find it. Supposed I'm in song obvious child. That comes to mind too quickly and it blocks the movie from my mind. It's a romantic comedy written and directed by Jillian Robespierre. Sturrs Jenny Slate, Gabby Hoffman, David Cross. Not sure. Okay. Elo, Elo, a movie from Singapore about a Filipino immigrant.

46:41Excellent film and a good look at the other side of Singaporean life that people don't always see. The one I love, this is a movie starring Mark Duploss and Elizabeth Moss. It's kind of an, it's an indie movie where they go to, um, I said, this is kind of hard movie to summarize, but as I recall, they're in a, they're in kind of a vacation home together and realize that they're interacting with, like, clones of their partner. Yeah, she's very good in that. It's an interesting film. I'm probably botching that summary a little bit, but it's very good. I also check that one out. Skeleton twins. Skeleton twins, give me some context.

47:21Context. Human LLM. Let me be your human LLM. Another American comedy. I don't know this one by name either, but this starred Bill Hader and Kristen Wig. Twins, Milo and Maggie have an unexpected reunion after a set of near tragedies. Yes, comedies I tend to forget, but I don't mean that as a criticism of comedies. And you can't really rewatch them. You just watch them once and then forget about it. That's optimal. Lucy, your second Scarlett Johansson movie. Yeah, she is amazing. Fury, that's the World War Two tank movie with Brad Pitt. I like World War Two movies. That's one of the good ones, yeah.

47:59I watched it. Litz was the one this year. I watched it. I watched Fury in the past year, enjoyed it. And again, for all my, you know, military dads out there. If you haven't checked out Fury, that is a great World War II movie. Interstellar. There's some comments here. I don't like that anymore. I think it's a bit unwatchable. I know it's the iconic movie for men. It's all over Twitter. Tech people love it. I don't think Christopher Nolan's a good movie maker. I know that's heresy. But it's all too excess and it's not really tinged with actual drama for the most part only in some scenes So I'm gonna mix that one But you're you're you're you're throwing out the baby with a bath water.

48:43Yeah, I'm gonna throw it all out Okay, you the bath water the tub. Let's just throw it all out Is this just like Oppenheimer you got just a bad taste in your mouth with Oppenheimer and I mean surely It's not all bad with Nolan Mark and Reese and promises me that tenet makes sense He's probably correct. It might be a great movie. I might try it again, but I don't know. I think there's some way in which there's just too much on the screen. And it's not properly cinematic somehow. Hmm. I have a soft spot for interstellar. I totally get the criticisms of interstellar, particularly that it kind of all collapses into love being like a force of nature.

49:29Like gravity is. Which I know for sci -fi focus is just not what you want. And it's just too parasitic on its own special effects. But I do appreciate, just on a production level, I appreciate Nolan. I think you're underrating the craftsmanship of those films, even from just a production design approach. I think they're very good. I agree with that, but it matters less to me. And I guess they'll never be a guest on this show now. You say you picked fury number one summing up and along with a touch of sin. You say both of them need to be seen on a large screen. Touch of sin is really the one that has become a big deal.

50:07You included TV pick. You say modern Orthodox Jewish dating show shrugum. I'm sure yeah, sure game. Which is incredible. It's now massively popular. I feel very good about that pick. Highly recommended. And the problem with a lot of romance today is where does the drama come from? You know, they could just sleep with each other too quickly or if someone needs to divorce, it just happens. So, Victorian literature had solutions to these problems. And Srugeem, which covers modern Orthodox in contemporary Israel, has solutions as well. It's a great, great TV show. I'd say one of the best ever made.

50:44And if you like it, you'll like it right away. It's not one of these. you need to sit through three episodes and then make up your mind. So looking back over nonfiction fiction, I didn't, you know, I'm not sure if you picked music. I didn't see it, but apologies if I missed the music picks, but if you go to MR, you can look at the data archives and find out for yourself. Looking back over these lists, how do you think they've aged? I'm biased, but I think extremely well, and I think that was a great year for many things. It wasn't a great year for the resumption of high -speed economic growth or maybe not technological progress, but it was a calm stagnation rich year where people were remarkably creative.

51:26Very good. And aesthetics. All right. Let us move on to something new for us this year. So you have another document in front of you actually several documents. We have asked listeners to send us ideas for a name that we can use to describe the collective fan base. And basically there's a functional reason for this of like when we address emails to folks instead of dear listener We kind of want to have a name for everyone. So dear blank, you know Taylor Swift fans are called swifties We're interested in developing our own version of that. We got a bunch of suggestions I would ask you to browse this list We're going to narrow it down to short list and then ask folks to vote on it.

52:06I'll start reading off some of these and you can tell me if any jump out to you. We have the underrated or underrated. How about the overrated? So there are every variation, so there's the correctly rated. But when there's curse holds, like we're pursuing them as an audience and that's when there's curse for us, like we've bid too much for their loyalty. So we must be overrating them, would be the simple economic argument. So it has to be the overrated. Tyler writes. Some of these should have my name in it. I agree. I actually, I love some of them, but I think it's against the spirit of the show that it use your name.

52:40It's about the guests more than anything else. But I would say, but just to name some of the ones that do include your names, I love Kawanats, but just, that just rolls off the tongue. InfoVor is maybe as good, because if anything binds our listeners, it might be that. I like InfoVor is, there's, you know, CWTers. But no one else will know what that means, right? Yeah. The tycoons again, if we use your name, the marginal revolutionaries, well, I think we have to save that for the other podcasts. Let's see if there's any other ones I really liked. I'll say inf of ours if it's up to me. Maybe it's up to them.

53:17It'll be up to them. Some of these I don't understand, but I appreciate people's effort, the stubbornly attached. How do you feel about the stubbornly attached? If only, if you tell me a lot, stop listening at two thirds of the way through. Maybe the stubbornly not fully attached. Yeah, yeah. So unfortunately also a little difficult to use as a salutation and email. Dear, dear, the stubbornly attached, it doesn't quite do what we need it to. But I appreciate that one whoever says one thing. I like it though. I like the spirit and that it's not about me. Yeah, I think the conversationalists, it's a little too general.

53:54It would apply to too many things. I think it's all full of movie, Gene Hackman. I don't know. It's also a strategy for us because we don't actually have conversational. This is probably the closest we get to a conversation on CWT. All right, well, the list is going to be quite narrowed down since I totally agree with this. We should not have variants of your name in there. If you haven't sent in a suggestion already, send it in. We'll narrow it down to a short list and we'll ask people to vote. But I think there are some good ones in here. All right, last bit of business we need to do before we take our leave for the year is we are currently running our end of year campaign and people can give financially support the show.

54:38One of the incentives we offered was a shout out. So if you gave more than $250 or more to the show, I'm going to give you your shout out and we thank you very much. So here's all the folks who gave us who donated to the CWT end of year campaign this year and qualified for this. Incentive. Eric Ward, Chris Masillo, Dave Padula, Carl Mooth, Drew Natenchon, Alan Goldhammer, Philip K, Dave Rapa, Christian Fiedler, Joe Kraus, Ethan Horsefall, David Kemp, Adam Shapiro,

55:23Chris Mon real Jackson Howard, yeah. Chad Wunderling, Eely U. Thank you all very, very much for your donations. I thank you all as well, truly. People have been very generous this year with their donations. We really appreciate it. And people who suggest questions, they're very valuable. So thank you to all of them as well. Yeah, and you can email in at any time, reach out to us, reach out to Tyler with guest ideas and your questions we're happy to receive them. Lastly, let me thank some folks from the show. And thanks to you, Jeff, for being producer and overseer of all of this among your other responsibilities.

56:01And it's my favorite thing to do this episode is always my favorite thing to do this year. So it's always a treat and it's great. It's very gratifying people now tell me that this is one of their favorite episodes of the year because it gives them a kind of a recommendation for episodes they may have missed among other things. So I love doing this. I love being here. I'm glad I made it. There is a sickness everywhere all around us. We're in the studio by ourselves because folks are dropping like flies, but they're not dropping. They're just sideline. They're they're recumbent on a on a sofa, you know, hopefully recovering, but thanks to your health regimen in mind, evidently, we've we've made it here today.

56:38I was in India, so I'm very healthy. Dallas and Sam are great. I'm going to thank them in advance. They're great to work with. They put up with me. Dallas and Sam do most of the work on the show besides Tyler. I just get to slide in and do fun things like this. In addition to Dallas and Sam who produced the show, there's Jen Whistler, Karen Plant, Christina Bihi, Haley Larson, Mary Huran, Ashley Schiller, Serena Dibb, and of course there's many others at Mercatus who contributed as well this year. So thank you all very much. And when I say like let's do more all of you are always game and that's phenomenal It's not that easy to work with people who are like that and who really need it Let's do more and Jeff let's do more all right Let's do more let's do more in 2025 and if I don't see you listeners before then I'll see you at the end of 2025 and we'll see how we did thank you Tyler looking forward to the next year.

57:33Thank you Jeff Thanks for listening to Conversations with Tyler. You can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review. This helps other listeners find the show. On Twitter, I'm At Tyler Cowan, and the show is At Cowan Convose. Until next time, please keep listening and learning.