Conversations with Tyler 2025 Retrospective

25:27Is it even valuable? What's after we know all? And they clarify that this is assuming that Neuralink devices are much more advanced than they are now, that it can literally just kind of implant the world's knowledge in your brain. That world seems very distant to me. I don't have intuitions about that world. A world where, say, people who have problems with paralysis can do very useful things through Neuralink, that's not distant. But the rest, I don't know. It's a metaphysics. It just may not even be true. But I would make the general point. The process is super important. That just something like writing, where LLMs can write well, but that you need to be writing all the time, that should never go away.

26:08It's a simpler example, more tractable. I strongly believe they're in the process for humans and not just the outcome. All right. Next question from Naveen Mishra. Why haven't more people copied your interviewing style? Well, why should they? Like, for one thing, it might not be good. Second, it requires a great deal of preparation, not just on the spot preparation, but like the lifetime of having read a lot in broad number of areas. And yeah, it's just difficult. So I'm not sure the returns to them are that high. Why should they do it? Yeah, we believe in pluralism. Let a thousand flowers bloom.

26:47I think you have your style. It's not for everyone. Some people are very turned off. I mean, it's a joke of the show that we call it Conversations with Tyler, and it's more like, you know, a grilling by Tyler in many cases. I think one thing maybe that has become more of a convention that people adopt is the super specific first question. You're known for that. Just get into it. In a way, this is what I've reflected on this year has also been that that lends itself very well to video and YouTube. Good. So one of the things that the algorithm, you know, if we talked to Austin about this, he would tell us that when he crafts a YouTube video, one of the things you learn very quickly is you just need to get to the point.

27:29You need to get right into it. And then, of course, they have tricks of how they keep the user engaged throughout. But intros, things like that are just death. And so for you, that's been an instinct you've had. And in a weird way, you're kind of ahead of the game as a YouTuber. I think there's another point here. that for someone to adopt some version of my style, they both need to be strong enough intellectually to be a guest, but also deferential enough to want to be a host. And there's many, many, like super impressive people who are great guests, but the idea that they take the guest hat off and just become the interviewer doesn't interest them at all.

28:13And I think it's a weird personality quirk of mine that I like to do both or can do both or will do both. And that severely limits the number of people who will have my style. And then if a guest comes back to me and says on something, well, Tyler, what do you think? I do typically have something to say, whether or not they or all you listeners like it, but I do have something to say. And that's an important part of the style, even though it's not always that frequent. Yeah. All right. Next question from Jumfrey Tuckins, when was the last time you had uncontrollable laughter and what caused it?

28:49Probably the correct answer is never. Like literally never in my life. Oh, Tyler. Never, never. Why should it be uncontrollable? Like things just aren't that funny. Like how good can something taste? Like take the best sushi I've ever had, which is quite good. Things can taste a bit better than that, but not much. So funniness is a maximum. It does not bring me to uncontrollable laughter, and that's just the equilibrium. Well, this is consistent with how you presented yourself before, where you've talked about how you feel like you don't have the extreme highs and lows of other people. You're much more of a steady middle kind of person.

29:28So either displeasure or pleasure, you don't get the extremes as much. But I guess I'm... Isn't uncontrollable laughter in some ways a kind of displeasure? I don't know, since I've never had it. I mean, in the sense that sometimes, you know, tickling, if you get tickled, that can sometimes you're laughing, but you want it to stop. Right. No, I think what that's getting at is those times where something has just so metaphorically tickled you that you, and usually it's with another person. Not going to happen. Sorry. That makes me a little sad. Maybe just you're not funny enough. Have you considered that?

30:07Oh, shots fired, Tyler. Oh, my gosh. I don't mean you, but like you, collective humanity. Okay, collective you. All right. I heard Louis C.K. Live, which is the funniest show I've ever heard, and I laughed quite a bit, but I was not close to uncontrollably laughing. Do you have any theory as to why that is? Because it's not – when that happens, again, it's usually about something you and another person are experiencing together that you've realized you've had the same thought or same experience and it's just – I suspect it's heritable with apologies to Alison Gopnik. Yeah. Yeah. This is very consistent.

30:47On one hand, I should not be surprised at all by that answer. But I still would think that there would be some time in your life, even as a kid, where something would just tickle you. And I'm surprised. I mean, you love that. It's possible. I can't rule it out, but I don't recall it. Okay. All right. On our Discord, Fuzzy Bunny asks, how has the comment section on marginal revolution changed your views on regulation? They meant this a little tongue in cheek, but that's the question. They mean regulation of Internet content? I think it's a comment on just MR commenters in general and their general tenor.

31:21And maybe so. So maybe it is about, has it changed your views on speech, on, I don't know, interpret as you will. If some big tech company, you know, Meta, formerly Facebook, decides they want to take content down, I'm not like, ooh, boo-hoo, free speech. I'm like, yes, you know, it was probably terrible. I don't think it's censorship. They own the platform. It's up to them. If they don't want to put someone up saying lemon meringue pie is great, I'm like, yes, lemon meringue pie is not great. That's fine. You spread the truth and it just doesn't bother me at all. Yeah. And if I delete someone, I'm like, yes, you know.

32:02You do it. There have been some people recently, they'll just like say something about Trump, which is well within any previous guidelines. I just look at it, roll my eyes, like this is not going to make any of the conversation better and I'll just delete it. Yeah. Well, yeah, maybe we take that view of regulation, regulation slash moderation. we do a fair amount of marginal revolution. I think it makes the experience better, the discourse better. Does that generalize in any way to you? Do you have lessons that you take to that that you would apply to other domains? Well, we should be very tolerant of more dominant suppliers doing the same thing.

32:38And again, people used to say, well, there's nowhere to go but Facebook. It's just not true. And it's less true than it was when people used to say it. All right. Okay, let's try this experiment. Thomas Marbson says, ask him which of the other questions AI will provide the same answer when asked to answer is Tyler Cowen and then do it to see if he gets it right. So of those previous listener questions, which one do you think AI will do the best job asking? And we'll do a test and see how it goes. So do you remember what the questions were? No, I don't. So grown in influence, more honest or cautious, how you pick hotels, change course on tariffs.

33:21Change course on tariffs. All right, let's ask the change course on tariffs question. Especially, you know, there can be a lag like it needed to have read the Internet this morning. And it depends when you asked it. But if it's read the Internet this morning, it ought to give the same answer as I did. So we just asked ChatGPT to answer as you. Now, I will say that ChatGPT immediately put the disclaimer on that it can't write as Tyler Cowen, But it will provide a crisp economist's eye answer with similar vibe. So what will make the U.S. change course on tariffs? It provides 10 reasons. One, inflation that voters can trace to tariffs.

33:57Two, administrative bottlenecks become the story. So in other words, problems at the ports, compliance costs. Three, a grand bargain tied to security. Four, recession plus employment insurance politics. Five, corporate America unifies. especially outside of big tech six agriculture feels boxed out seven a carbon deal reframes the border eight mexico vietnam india bargains nine legal or budget constraints bite ten symbolic win the white house can sell okay it didn't pick up the supreme court as all too thorough yeah yeah didn't pick up the supreme court at all but which of those which of those 10 reasons is closer closest to you do you think i would dismiss the carbon answer the others are all factors But keep in mind, we're asking it about the Delta.

34:45What will change? They're all things that have been in place. I think what also has changed, and we're speaking the day after the election results, where the Democrats won a lot by more than expected, is this will motivate the Republican Congress to stand up to Trump more and be more resistant. And that, too, can account for the Delta in addition to the Supreme Court decisions. All right. Let's move on to 2015 pop culture picks. Okay. So as you mentioned earlier in the show, this is actually the 10th anniversary year of Conversations with Tyler. We started in April 2015. So this is the first year you're giving pop culture picks when the show was a thing.

35:26Now, we only did maybe four episodes that year. It was very sporadic at first. But this might be the first year where CWT starts to actually inform some of the picks. So let's start with movies. You start by saying, I thought this was the worst year for movies since I've been watching them. In fact, I think you could multiply this year's good films by two and still have the worst year for movies in a long, long time. That's still true. Put aside pandemic weirdness, but I went back and looked at the list. It was an awful year for movies. There's very little on it that has stuck with me. All right.

36:00So let's run through it. So you said, here are some of the ones I liked. One, American Sniper. Clint Eastwood. Good movie. Pretty good. But there's a lot of Clint Eastwood. And when I go to my grave, it won't be one of the three or four that are the most important. But it was a good movie. Get the Trial of Vivienne Onsalem? Onsalem? Yeah, about Orthodox Judaism. Hasn't, fun movie, hasn't stuck with me. Ex Machina, Alex Garland movie. It's become seminal, but when I saw it, I felt it was a bit thin. But now, of course, it's an important film. That's okay. Maybe it should be. But it's a good movie.

36:39It's not a great movie. Inside Out. You say it seems splendid at the time, but hasn't stuck with me. A lot of Pixar seems worse, even the great classics. I never sit around and think, oh, I'd love to see Toy Story again. Though at the time, I loved it. Well, I have to say, given our earlier discussion about belly laughs, it's not surprising to me a movie about your inner emotions being in competition with each other is not resonating with you much after you see it. All right, number five, Red Army. That I loved. It's a 70-minute documentary about the Soviet hockey team. And you could say it's a minor achievement, but it was the best movie that year that I know of.

37:21Meru, a documentary about climbing very high mountains and human motivation. Behavioral economics on the screen. Good. And you say it should win a Cass Sunstein Award. What does that mean? I didn't... Well, I was referring to behavioral economics and Dutch and different reasons why people do things. But Cass used to have an award for the best movie each year on behavioral econ. And that's why I was referring to Cass in that context. Does he need to update that award for liberalism now? That's an excellent question. He should start it. I don't think he's done it for movies for a while, not that I can recall.

37:54Best movie for liberalism each year. Cass should do it. All right, Cass. Gauntlet is thrown. All right. A Brilliant Young Mind. X plus Y is the title of the original UK release. I don't remember. Well, it's from Taiwan, right? Yes. Vanished. Grandma, starring Lily Tomlin. Vanished. The Martian by Andy Weir. So I hesitated there because The Martian, the book, I think came out the year before. It was pretty fast. Right. The movie came out. And he was a great guest. Good movie. Yes. But again, not as good as a lot of other science fiction movies. Just a good movie. About Ellie. Iranian movie. Has aged very well.

38:36And that director has stayed of significance. So that maybe has gone up a bit in stature. but it's not his best movie. A Separation is his best movie. Macbeth. Macbeth. Macbeth. I turned it in. I don't know where that dialect comes from. Macbeth, this is the version starring Michael Fassbender, Marianne Cotillard. It was good, but in general, I prefer to read Shakespeare rather than see it on the screen. I just process it better when it's on the page. No fault of the movie. My favorite Shakespearean movie, I guess, is Chimes at Midnight, which takes great liberties with Shakespeare, and that's Orson Welles, of course.

39:13Carol. This is the... Yeah, good. But there's no movie where, when we get to the fiction books for the year, which maybe we'll do shortly, but you have Submission by Hulbeck, and you have, what, the final volume of Ferrante, like in one year. Oh my goodness. And what's the movie equivalent to those? Right. With all due respect, Red Army is not in the same league as those novels. Sicario. Good movie, but I don't know. It feels like a tired theme by now. There's plenty of movies about drug gangs and the like. Sicario's probably the one that people talk about the most. It is. But I don't think it's great.

39:49I think it's just good. It's good. It's, you know, some very good sequences. Mustang. Not even sure. This is set in a remote Turkish village. Depicts the lives of five young orphan sisters and the challenges they face growing up in a conservative society. Oh, that's good it's a good movie yeah now i remember anomalisa anomalisa this is one of those charlie kaufman movies yeah i've totally forgot this none of them have aged well for me blind norwegian movie uh it's about someone who she's losing her eyesight in midlife that year for books was so so good and for movies so so miserable all right then let's i take the And Tyler, let's move on.

40:33The last one you mentioned is Diary of a Teenage Girl, for the record. But let's move to books. Let's start with nonfiction. You list something like 28, 27 or 28 nonfiction books this year. So let's, I'm just going to run through them and you stop me if you have something to say. was the Robert Toombs book about English history. Since that blog post, so many people have come to me and said, can you recommend to me other books like the Robert Toombs book, which is a sign it really hit people in a good way. So that is probably the clear winner for best book of that year. And everyone should read it.

41:08It's just a book about English history. Utterly compelling. Has Toombs done much since then? I don't know. I think he had one other book. I'm not sure. I should check. It's called The English and Their History. That's right. Great title. So let me run through these. You can stop me if you have anything to say. So Mastering Metrics, The Path from Cause to Effect by Ingrist and Stefan Pischke. An incredible achievement, but it's not a book in the sense that you read it, right? Danny Roderick, Economics Rules, CWT guest. Mercantilism to me looks worse than it did 10 years ago, now that I have to live under it.

41:44Mm-hmm. Richard Thaler, Misbehaving, The Making of Behavioral Economics, speaking of Cass Sunstein. There should be more books about economics and economists, and that was a good one. Garrett Jones, The Hive Mind. Garrett's my colleague. That book is still cited a lot in places like The Economist. It's held up very well, and I think it's become a seminal work. So I'm glad I picked it. Scott Sumner, The Midas Paradox. I think Scott is correct that the biggest problem in the Great Depression was the deflationary pressures. Andrew Ross Sorkin and I talked about that in our episode from this year.

42:21And a very thorough book that Scott worked on for something like 20 years. All right. I will not go through the rest of the list, but you do say the ones that you think are the best are Ashley Vance's book on Elon Musk. All the more important, right? Yeah. Ilan has remained a force, to say the least. You also really like Charles Moore's book, biography of Margaret Thatcher. It's called Margaret Thatcher at Her Zenith in London, Washington, and Moscow, volume two of the biography. One of the best biographies of the last 10 years. For many people, it's too detailed to be clear, but just quality of book, it's unbelievable.

42:58And then Frank McClendon, a book on Genghis Khan. I might say the book on Han Sen. I would put in its place. It's just more contemporary. But yeah, there are so many good nonfiction books that year. And I didn't have to stretch to get to 28 to be listed. It's a better list. This year's list will be fine, but that year's list was better. I hope it's not a trend. All right. I fear it is, by the way. Let's move to fiction. You thought it was a stellar year for fiction, as you've previously mentioned. So you mentioned Michelle Huybeck, Submission. That's come up many times on CWT as well. It's the most classic work of fiction of the last 20 years, I would say.

43:39And you can think of it as a work of nonfiction in a sense. It's a work of philosophy. Not quite predictive, not quite normative, a weird combination of them both. Everyone refers to it. It rewards rereads, and it's just incredible. And it's short for all that. But there's more to it than you think on the first read. I would just tell everyone that. You said in the post that you read it in German first, because that was the first way you could get your hands on it. I was out in German before English, and I was in a rush, so I do that sometimes. All right. Did you re-read it in English, though, you said?

44:14Yes, and it completely holds up. Larry Kramer, The American People. Has not stuck with me. The Seventh Day by Yu Hua. How do you spell the author's name? H-U-A. Y-U-H-U-A. Has not stuck with me. The Widower is a great book, the one from Singapore. I mentioned that. And Daoud, sort of from France, from Algeria, the retelling of Camus has become a classic book. The Marisol Investigation. So you have three like classic books that year, two like mega classic beyond belief, quality and important. Yeah. And then some other good ones. All right. Let's move on to music. You'd say this isn't you just call this post the year in recorded music.

45:00And you'd say, here is some of what I listened to. A big chunk of rap and R &B centered around Kanye West, Frank Ocean, Kendrick Lamar, Drake and D 'Angelo, among others. It was a peak time for that kind of work, right? Yeah. Fantastic time to be listening to it. Kanye, of course, has taken other courses. But yeah, that's when I should have been listening to that music, and I was. Yeah, you say we're actually, Marvin Gaye is gone, but we're actually living in a second golden age. Enjoy it. But not anymore. It's over. So D 'Angelo passed away this year. That's right. Kanye went crazy or something, whatever you want to call it.

45:33Kendrick Lamar, it's still quality product, but it doesn't feel fresh to me these days. It's just like, oh, some more of that. The last CD was 78 minutes. Maybe we'll get another 78 minutes. Okay. You know. So, yeah, it's over. Maybe now it's country western. I'm not sure. Maybe. Number two, Kamase Washington's The Epic was the jazz album I've enjoyed the most. Yeah. Again, held up very well. The big box set of the year, which you might otherwise not think of buying, is Hula Land, the golden age of Hawaiian music. People don't listen to it anymore. I don't know why. It's just fun. It's super accessible.

46:10And it also feels and sounds different. From Syria, I'll again recommend Dabka, Sounds of the Syrian Huron, Hauron. I'm not sure if I'm saying that right. And Omar Suleiman, both highly worthwhile. Self-recommending, as they say. In classical music, my picks would be Matthew Bingston, Scriabin Piano Sonatas. Did I say that right? Yeah, I know Matt. And he and I correspond sometimes. He's also an avid Magnus Carlsen fan. and he recorded what I think are the best versions of the Scriabin piano sonatas. And I heard him play them live in some weird place, like up in Michigan, just like in a piano store.

46:46But I had an incredible seat, and it was one of my better musical experiences flat out. You also recorded some new podcasts with Rick Rubin this year, where you took him through. He did a traditional sit-down interview with him, but you also DJed a set of choral music for him. What did you learn putting that together for Rick, and what did he take away from it based on your conversations with him? When you go through something all at once, even if you know most of it already, you do reevaluate it. So how good the 20th century was for choral music, which is maybe not everyone's intuition, how much religious music was made in the 20th century, how much classical music never, in fact, declined would be some of my key conclusions.

47:28Help me understand Rick better. So he just loves Palestrina and Arvo part. And it makes sense. There's a purity to that sound. They're not like actually my personal favorites. I want more rhythmic choral music or something more strange sounding. But that blend between the two of us, he wanting the pure, I'm always wanting something weirder sounding, I thought made that a very good podcast. It was one of the things I did this year that I'm happiest about. All right. So we are going to end this part of the retrospective right here. But listener, never fear. We're going to be right back. We're just going to take a break after recording, but we'll record a new segment with Tyler close to the end of the year so that we can review the actual most popular episodes of the year and do a few other things.

48:16So stick around. We'll be right back. All right. And Tyler, we are back. For the listener, no time has passed. But for us, several weeks have passed and we are now in completely different countries and indeed continents. Where in the world are you, Tyler? I am nine hours later than you are. I'm in Muscat Oman, which is a lovely place, in some ways feels Mediterranean, and maybe it's the most relaxed part of the Persian Gulf. It's very beautiful. It has these white alabaster buildings, blue sky, mountains in the background, medieval castles in the ocean, all in one view. Why do you say most relaxed?

48:52People here seem happier, not that uptight. Politically, Oman is never in the news. I I would say overall, that's a good thing. I've only been here a day, but that's my immediate impression. Easy going. And you're coming from two conferences we've had in India, the Emergent Ventures and Political Economy Conference that Mercatus hosts in India. Is Oman your first stop after those conferences, or what else is on your itinerary? I was in another conference at Goa, which was wonderful, and it's from Goa that came to Oman. There's actually a direct flight, Goa to Oman. It's a bit more than two hours, but the two places are remarkably close.

49:34Anywhere after Oman? Home, I hope. Through Dubai, where else? Very good. Okay, so the reason we're talking now is because when we recorded the first part of the retrospective, we didn't actually know what the top episodes of the year would be. We had some sense, but we didn't know yet. and we also are currently running an end of year campaign and so listeners had a chance up through yesterday to get to donate to get a shout out on the podcast and we want to thank those folks who gave to the campaign if you're listening to this before the end of the year there's still time uh you all have been very generous so far we very much appreciate it but there is still time to give if you're so inclined but tyler let's go to the top episodes then so you guessed the morning we recorded the Sam Altman episode was releasing, you guessed that would be the top episode of the year.

50:25It was. Sam Altman was the top episode of the year. Very good. You also claimed, you also later said you thought Ezra Klein would be in the top. He was number two. Number three, four, we'll do through ten, and I know you don't have the list of episodes in front of you, but any other names jump out at you is what you would think top episode. I think you also threw out Silver, which is correct. He's in the top five. But any other names you think in the top 10, top five? You know, I think a lot of the episodes, as you've told me, have broadly similar levels of listenership. A lot of people have written me about the Dan Wong episode.

51:03So that's still running, you could say, and fairly live. But I predict that will end up doing quite well. Other than that, it's all a blur to me. I think they'll all do well, pretty well. And it's not clear to me why one would do better than the other, other than Ezra Klein, Nate Silver, and of course, Sam Altman. Yeah. Let's run through them then. So number one was Sam Altman, number two, Ezra Klein, number three, Steven Pinker. Okay. Yeah. So we're just doing celebrity here, right? Yes. Number four. I forgot about Pinker, but it makes sense he's number three. And I don't think you'll be surprised by four, David Brooks.

51:38That was our 92 and why. Okay. Yes. Nate Silver. So there's market failure here. The famous people are getting more fame. This is the Matthew effect. I thought one of our purposes was to counteract this trend. It is. It is. And I apologize. I prostrate myself before you and ask for your forgiveness and the listeners' forgiveness that we're not doing a better job getting relatively undiscovered people in the top 10. It gets a little bit better in the bottom five. So five is Nate Silver. Six is Jack Clark. Okay. You know, Jack Clark. Okay. So it's six in a row. Yeah. Celebrity value. But number seven.

52:17I'm not saying they weren't very good episodes. They were. But still, it's striking. But number seven, David Commons. Really? Yes. Did Saudi Arabia start listening to David? What happened? I don't know why, but that episode came in number seven. That was a very pleasant surprise for me. David is definitely... I liked that episode a lot, but I thought it would be about the least popular of the whole year. Number seven for the year. So if you haven't listened to the David Commons episode, which covers the region Tyler is in, Saudi Arabia specifically, check it out because people really turned out for that one.

52:55That's good. Number eight, Blake Schull. Okay, not surprising. Number nine. Again, a bit of celebrity. A bit of celebrity. Not as much of a household name, but definitely well known in the kind of CWT crowd. Number nine, Annie Jacobson. okay that makes sense to me actually and number 10 john arnold not surprising uh john is known in a few different groups of people and i suspect that boosted him yeah and it was a very good episode yeah i so we had one truly we can still at least take some consolation of the fact that We had one truly surprising person in the top 10, that being David Commons. We'll see next year if we can get a more eclectic top 10.

53:48But this is in keeping with the pattern of the past few years as well. Do we have differential data on whether people listen to the celebrities all the way through? We could see. I think for us right now, it'd be different probably if we included YouTube, which I don't count YouTube in these yet. So one disclaimer, this is the first week of podcast downloads. So I'm looking in the first week. So some episodes maybe take off after the first week, but that tends to be pretty predictive. And then I'm not yet looking at YouTube. I suspect popularity would decrease watch time or listen time on YouTube.

54:26Podcasts, I don't think, I think they're positively correlated. So the more popular ones tend to have perfectly good listen time as well. Yeah. All right. You're traveling about. One Mercatus scholar, Salim Firth, had a question he submitted late, but I told him we were recording this coda and he wanted to ask you. He wants to know how you spend your time on, let's do planes first and then cars. Like when you've got time to kill in planes and cars, what are you doing? Pretty simple. In planes, I'm pretty much always reading. I'll spend some time keeping up with my email if there's Wi-Fi on the plane, but it's 80-85 % just reading books.

55:08And that works well for me. I don't mind being on planes. And driving, I don't really have long drives at the moment anywhere. So say I'm driving to school, I'll listen to satellite radio. If I'm with someone, I'll just talk to the person. And that's it. Are you ever in long car rides where you're not driving? You know, quintessential road trip kind of thing where you're in the car for maybe more than two, three hours more at a time? Not in the last 10 years. I mean, never. So I might be on the train, which is identical to being on the plane. But if I'm driving, I'm driving. I don't like listening to podcasts while I drive or anything audio.

55:51So that means music. And again, it's pretty simple. There's really not any variation there. Yeah. And what are you hoping to see in Oman? How long are you there for? A couple days, you said? Three days total. Never been here before. And I've been to quite a bit of the Gulf region and wanted to see the place I haven't seen. Oman, like Yemen, you know, was a civilization in the proper sense. In a way, a lot of the other Gulf states were not. So there's a grand and glorious past here. You know, Oman controlled Zanzibar in the 19th century or part of it. What's in the National Museum is beautiful and very impressive.

56:36And people don't think much about Oman, but it's an important place. So why not go see it? It's comfortable. It's quite safe. plenty of people speak decent English. There's no hassles associated with being here. The weather's gorgeous. It's not a food country. I've had some good food, but you don't come here for the food, I would say that. You come here to see Oman. And again, for scenery, it's gorgeous. All right. With that, let us turn to our shout outs. These are the people who donated above a certain amount. They get their name shout out, and we're going to thank them in person right now. That's Alexander Walsh, David Kemp, Alexander Zouk, Eric Ward, Dennis Sheehan, Clifford Sosen, Jordan Mayer, Huey Long, Alexander Zornecki, Chet Korkos, Roger Fisher, Mia Shapiro, Charles Marsh, Michael Lumpkin, Hal Cider, Owen Groman, Matthew Melchione, Leslie Spencer, Manny Roman, Derek Cullinan, Michael Stubel, Christopher Pang, and Paul Shapiro.

57:39Thank you all very much for donating. We really appreciate your listenership. In general, I said this before, but the response to the campaign this year has been really awesome. So I want to say thank you to all the listeners who donated, but also just people sending in notes of how much they've enjoyed the show. They're sending me their top and bottom episodes sometimes as well. But I enjoy hearing all of it. So thank you all very much. I thank you all as well. It's very important to me personally that I'm able to continue doing this. So I'm extremely grateful. All right. And before we close, let me shout out the people who are part of the core CWT production function, all the people who work on the show.

58:20That's Dallas Floor, Sam Allberger, Luis Abrego, Kendra Strotterman, Katie Jester, Jen Whistler, Karen Plant, Sydney Gordon, Haley Larson, Mary Horan, Ashley Schiller, and many others at Mercatus who have contributed in small ways this year. So thank you all very much. Thank you, Tyler, of course. And we look forward to another year and indeed a second decade of conversations with Tyler. Everyone on staff is tremendous. I thank you all personally and keep up the great work. You too, Jeff. Let's not forget you. Let's not forget me. All right. Enjoy your trip and I'll see you in the office when you're back.

58:58Take care. Bye.

59:02Thanks for listening to Conversations with Tyler. You can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review. This helps other listeners find the show. On Twitter, I'm at Tyler Cowen, and the show is at Cowen Convos. Until next time, please keep listening and learning.

59:30Thank you.