Githae Githinji on Life in Kenya

0:03Hey everybody, this is Sam, one of the producers of Conversations with Tyler. This is part 2 of the bonus episode showing the daily life, culture, and politics of Nairobi and Kenya at large. In this episode, you'll hear from Gatai Gatengi, who is an elder working in Tattoo City, a 5 ,000 acre mixed -use development just north of Nairobi. In case you missed it, make sure to check out part 1 to hear from Harriet Marathi, a young woman working in Tattoo City for a different perspective. Now onto the show.

0:38Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. Bridging the gap between academic ideas and real world problems. Learn more at mercatis .org. For a full transcript of every conversation, enhanced with helpful links, visit ConversationsWithThyler .com. Hello everyone and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today I'm sitting here in Tatu City right outside of Nairobi, Kenya and I'll be chatting with Kitai Kitingi. He's a businessman in the transport industry and he's a Kikiyu elder. He stationed at Tatu City or he's a chairman. His roles as chairman include dispute resolution and also coordinating community ceremonies.

1:27His most recent activity as the elders chairman for the area around Tatu City was planning and coordinating the cleansing ceremony of a magumu tree being moved into Tatu City. Gita is 58 years old. He is from the Aguikyu community. He is born and raised in Mukawani, Neary County, the central region of Kenya. He resides now in Kiyambu County, where he is also established his business. Kitai, welcome. Thank you for talking with me. What is your business? Could you tell us? I did the transport. Transport. What does that mean specifically? I have tattoos and I have So, small vehicles you should have normally deliver from a shop of a shop.

2:18And you own the vehicles, you sell them to businesses, to individuals or who are your customers? No, I do transport. That's a transporting people from Rio to Nairobi. Oh, so you drive them from my business? I own, so I am, I see. I am probably people who do that business, who do that job. I'm just the manager of, I manage my business. When you look for good drivers who will do good work, what qualities do you look for in them? A driver who is competent of what he is doing. But how do you tell if they're good? When you talk to them, you have an interview, what do you ask, or how do you approach that?

2:55Normally I do test them me personally. You see whether somebody has all the requirements to be a driver. You need to have all the documents that are required by the government. and then his ability to do that job. How can you tell who will be a good driver or not a good driver? It's a person who is qualified in that skill. So the main thing is the license. The main thing is the license, because the other government documents and whether somebody is sober. So by mean, you know, you can't employ some others who are drunk, Katsukan. Yes. Kiss a lot of things. You have to look for somebody who is a little bit educated, who knows the responsibility of a person who can handle that via coiteer.

3:44Yes, I understand. Yeah. The part of Kenya where you're from, that's Makarweini, right? Yeah. What is special about that part of Kenya? The part of Kenya, Makarweini. Well, as I could say, I left the priest a long time ago. The moment I finished my school, I came here in Rado and that's why I established myself here in Rado. I left my motherhood. Why did you leave there? I was just coming to look for good pastures here. When I came to work. Yes, when I came here I was in Proidia. So when I get I got invested here. Yes. I got a piece of Prozeer which I built. So I decided here now. And where you come from?

4:30Do you miss it in any way? Or are you just happier to be here? No, I just go there visiting. Just visiting. Even though I lost my mother and father, so I just go and visit my brothers who are there. Why do you think you left and they didn't? Like what's the difference? That is a little area. We don't have a lot of job opportunities like we have here in Kierbu or in Nairobi. Even apart from jobs, if you just think about living there, is it more exciting to live here or more interesting to live there? Well, I would say it's more interesting to live here because if I may think of job opportunities are looking for some heates more convenient, more than the rural area.

5:09And your native language from the family is Kiswahili, right? Yeah. And you learned English here or you learned it in school? or. Kiswadi. No, but that you grow up speaking, right? I grew up speaking Kikuyu. Ah, Kikuyu, okay. Yeah, Kikuyu is my main language. Okay. And what other languages do you speak? The other language is Kiswahiri. Yeah. And English, of course. And English. How did you learn those? From school. When you were growing up as a boy? Yeah, when I was growing up as a boy. Yeah. I went up to phone for. Yeah. Yeah. If you think about Africa as a whole, do you think you're lucky to live in Kenya or you wish you were somewhere else or how do you view Kenya within Africa?

5:52Kenya is a good country. What makes it good? It makes it good for actually the way I've wrapped here. The way I've stayed here, I've never seen bad things. In terms of like violence or disorder. The violence, people are very peaceful. Yeah. And you think the economy is pretty good for Africa? Yeah. Wait, I would say it's good. Yeah. Yeah. How did you come to have your role in Tattoo City? In Tattoo City. Where I decide is just near the Tattoo City area. Right. So as the community, we just have groupings where we go and you are shown how to use our tradition. We know what to do. We normally do enjoy and have our own ways of conducting our own selves.

6:44So I joined those Wazezas that I was in heated to that group. It became so active to the next ten thirds even then they felt, they were low and praying to them, I need to be there earlier and they choose me as the shayama. Okay, I understand. And what makes you good at that? Like what's your quality that makes you a good elder? It's because of knowing how to coordinate people in the best way. If you are a violent man, I just can't talk with you in a polite way. You understand one another? I show you how you are supposed to live with the other people. I show you the goodness of peace and such kind of things.

7:23So it's a lot of experience dealing with people. Yeah. What would be a typical dispute that you have to decide or resolve? A rot of them. But like what would be an example? What might happen where they need you? Example. Yes. It's if there's a fight between a man and a man. Yes. If there's a person who has, let's say, got somebody's property, such kind of things, we see down, talk it out, somebody's shooting the other, domestic violence, or of that. And what do you do that the court system does not do, right? Because you're not police, But still you do something useful. What we normally do, we as a group, we listen to one another.

8:07Yes. Very much. And when one person dishes to that stage of being told that you are a man now, you normally have to respect your elder. Yes. Those people do respect me. So when I call you, when I tell you come and we talk it out, with my group, you cannot say you cannot come. Because if you do it, we normally discipline somebody, not by beating. We just remove you from our group. And when we isolate you from our group, you feel that is not fair for you. You come back and say, the approach is, it takes you back to the group. So if you're isolated, you can't be friends with those people anymore.

8:48When we isolate you, we mean you're not allowed to interact in any way. Any way. business, anything, with the other community. And if it is so, definitely you have to be a rusa, because you might be needing one of those people to have in a business or something of the sort. But when you isolated this man tells you, go and clean yourself first with that group. And does your family reject you also or just your friends? If your family rejects you, that is a family dispute. And it comes to that. Yes. We take it in another way because we have to know fast. How does that despitalize? Right. It might be your wife is the one who has a problem.

9:31For that to only don't eat a fear so much, we leave it to the family. Yes. Yes. But if the man has the problem? If the family have a problem also, we cheap inside and we help them to resolve that despute. By talking to both of them, yeah, talking looking at the two of the practices. What's the biggest family problem that you see? The most common one. The most common one is, it happens when one man is so drunk, who is the woman, she says the woman, or the woman pushes with an anaman, call it a dotali, and she does that. At least you do normally the shape into the soft heart issue. But not most common.

10:17That when we normally leave it to their family. Yes, not unless the family comes to us and tells us we need to help in this, we normally don't like so much interfering in the family matters. Problems with children, you deal with those are not so much. In form of children, yes, we do normally do. Because in our group as men, we initiate small boys. from shoudhu to other truth. We succumb size. Yes. When is the age? Yes. We have groupings. We have succumb size or Kikuyu boys. Kikuyu, Abu boys from Meru. That is our community. We call it together community. The group of that community. We do have groups where we have our own doctors, qualified doctors.

11:04For let's say like last year we had the one in Gidoguri. He had Gidoguri primary school. That is where we were. We had 350 boys who initiated. We helped them, we called them, we talked with them, told them the light of passage that one person is going, educate them and after that we He's still with those boys for 10 days. 10 days. Two that boy is healed. Yes. And how old is the boy at this point? At this point is when he finishes 38. Okay. Well now he's going to form one. Yes. Yes. We make sure we mentor that boy. At the same time, after the boy goes back to the parents, the following year, we make sure we prepare a seminar.

11:56We call them because we do normally follow them up to see whether this boy has good behaviors or whatever. If she tries to be misbehave, the Pomembar and the rest, you talk to that boy. We make sure that we are molding somebody who can be able to come and join the community. And there's a ceremony surrounding this initiation. Is there parties or people get together or how does that work? What happens? We have the doctors who niches the boy. And we have old men coordinated by me, if it's in my leadership, I have to be under Shia Manam. There are the ones who talk with these children, shoot them, how to live and whatever.

12:39Yes. Yes. And if there is a problem you could fix in your community, one thing you could improve, what would it be? Well, hotel do wish very much. For example, like you people, when you come to this place, just try to help us. the elderly people try to come, boarding these people, because you have come, you've got these people. If you board with them, we also will come you as our brother. Yes. Yes, I wish you so good. And Kiki, you people in Kenya, do you think they're different from the other groups, or the culture is different? How would you describe that? Well, all the other groups has their own culture.

13:19Yes. If it's Kiki, they have their own. If it's Los, they have their own. and it is something that we met. It is not something that we are creating. It is from our old, graded fathers. And how would you describe what is special about Kikiu culture? What I would describe about, they are good. That is one thing. I don't know. I don't know what they are good because I'm a Kikiu. Yes. Yes, I'm saying because they are hardworking people. Yes. Many people say they're very good at business. And they are friendly and good business people. Yeah, they are business -minded. And they are not lazy people. Not lazy.

14:00You think they are more extroverted, more open. More than. Even if you go to any part of this country, there's nowhere you can go and don't fight them. I'll kick you. Yes. If you move from Yatomo and Baza, you get out of the quiz. Yeah. If you go every day, I'll kick you as always there. They like interacting with the other communities. And the way marriage works for Kikyu is it different from the other groups? Marriage. Marriage. Courtship, how you decide whom to marry, the ceremony, everything, is it the same or different? There's no difference because we also marry other communities. Yeah. A Kikyu is allowed to marry a kaba.

14:42Yes. Yes, we in Tamar with those communities. And you marry at the same age younger older or that's all the same. It depends with the feeling of that one person. You can marry whoever you want. Yes. You are free. We don't have limitations that you should marry this or that. But you do not encourage old men to marry small children. Sure. That's not good. Yeah. How many children do you think a typical family wants to have now in Nairobi? In Nairobi. Not most likely, as I can see. Now these young people are applying in two, three. Two or three. But in our times, in our old ones, this, like in my family.

15:22Yes. My father had eight. Eight. Which do you think is better? According to today's economy, I would say we don't go that much, get in ten children's with you, you won't be able to look at after. It is better if you have three or four, who you know very well. Yeah. You are going to cater to them to the other group. There were some countries where families just have one. I mean, is that weird to you? But you go to Korea, people have an average about one, a little less, actually. But average of one is not good. Because you know, accidents do not happen. Sure. If you have one child, he dies. You are left with nothing.

16:01Yeah. Why? Guess two or three. Yeah. So in the case of anything, you are left with something. Yes. Yes, if you have one and he dies and you are old, you cannot get another one. You see, you've believed in that. Yes. No. Children here, do they take good care of their parents and grandparents? Yes, they do it. They do. And that's expected. It's part of the culture. It is this. But we don't force them to. Yes. It will depend with the relationship between your children, your own self. Yes. Because there are some men or women who do not care for their children. Yes. They just get the children and let them go away.

16:42Yeah, it's good to interact with the childrens. Show them you are their father. Show them you are their mother. These childrens, we will give you back. Yeah. Yes. The way you bring out a children is the way you... you also need... And today the grandparents, do they help bring up the children even if there's only two? Yeah. They still do. Yeah. And what if the family has moved to Nairobi, moved to Mombasa and the grandparents are far away? Like how do things work? Four week, four week he could use. Yes. If somebody lives from far, we do normally meet. Let's say during the holidays, you make sure you go home, you enjoy them.

17:24How do you get home? You take a bus? You take a bus or if you have means, you have a vehicle, you just go there. Just drive, yeah. Yes, drive with your family for less two or three days and you go back to Joe. Yeah. Now, I have read in the newspapers, the cost of living in Kenya is much higher now than a few years ago. It is. Why did that happen? I don't know whether it's because of the population. I don't know whether it's because of the development we have here. Actually, for that one, I cannot tell you the, but it's because of, you know, So we have a high, what do we call it? Let's say if you look in ways or another, the climate have shaped.

18:07And when the climate have shaped, we don't have enough wood. You can lay it. And when you don't have enough wood, you expect the life has to be more under. Because there are some people who depends with the lane. You can lay it. From that, if you go to the, let's say a place like in the Royal Billite now, as we are living. the cause of living also is so high. Because let me talk about the sector of transportation. That is very hard because of the increase of petroleum. Because, if I could say, the price of petroleum is too high and I cannot be able to hike the price of the personal month carrying.

18:48Because these people don't have money. So I have to dig deeper to my pocket. to sustain what is being added in the petrol. And what do you think should be done to change things? Because it costs so much. What needs to be done is now that is now up to the government not to know how they are going to look at the people. Yes. Because we know you're tied up. Yeah. But do you know what should be changed to improve this thing? Because one, if we say for the climate, that is our cause, that is gone now. We have to pay to go now to give us good lengths. Like this year we had good dreams. What we could do is we know why.

19:32We are not having enough rain. Why? We plant a lot of these. We stop rogging. We plant a lot of trees so that we could get enough rain. When we go back to the side of the gambit now, Now the company is for them to know how they are going to legurize these places so that at least they are a little bit. Do you use mobile money to buy things? Money in your smartphone. Yeah. And how does that work for you? That's easy, that's hard, or how is it? It is not hard, it's easy. Because when we get money, we do not notice Because we even use phones when we are paying things, it's more better to cause we don't lose a lot of money when you're just even though there's a lot of tax in it.

20:25And do you order things online? You buy online and someone sends it to you? Now for me I don't. But younger people do or? But young people do. What kind of things do they buy online? Normally, by things that they don't have, you don't have here. Things from other countries, from other countries like vehicles, vacation cars, or even building materials, they don't really do it. And why don't you buy online? I'm really too bitter now. Do you listen to YouTube at all? It's really. What do you listen to? They come already. Common radio. What kind of music? Banga music? You listen to Congo music? Traditional music.

21:15Traditional music. Traditional music. What kind of traditional? I like the Kikuyu or Lou music. Whichever, I like this one very much. And this will be on the radio. Do you like music from other African countries? Dubs are different to yes. What else do you like? Oh, we are talking of... What you like, yeah, Nigeria. There's a lot of Nigerian music in America now. All of countries. All countries. Yes, the only thing the music should... You know, we should have a music, if it's good. You listen to any American music. If it's a chance to be in there, I do. You do? What do you listen to? We sever music, it's been...

22:03Whichever is playing on their radio. Yeah. You have public utilities, right? You get electricity, water. How good are those services? The services that we have been given by... But you get your electricity, is it reliable? Yes, it is. It is. And your water... Even the water is... We have enough water. You have enough water? Yeah, from these bubbles that we are getting from this. And you get water from a well or from piping or how does your water come? Let's see in our area, this is what we have now. We have people who get surprised from water from else and also from the counter -government. Yes.

22:46And you feel that safe water? We could say it's, of course, what they normally do when we get this water, it's already treated so that we can consume it. What are some of the other expenses for a family in Kenya? So there's food, right? Transportation, rent. What else is the problem? Education. Yeah. If you send your kid to school, the kid is 10. The school is free or you have to pay? You have to pay. Even for government school. In governments, you also have to pay a battery to money. Yeah. And you think the schools are good or? Well, I would say it's good cause I'm used to those schools, I've known how more Africans are better than those.

23:32You normally adapt what you see or what you get there. Yes. Funerals, do they cost a lot of money? No, for the finil it depends with the family. Yes. Because for the final, if the family feels they are going to buy an expensive house or a coffin, it's to them. That only depends on how the family is. Because there are some who don't require auto money, there are some who like to use a lot of money. That only normally depends on how the family is. And the family pays for everything or the community shares the cost. The communities, most of the times for the families, the community is shipping. And who decides how much people pay?

24:24Nobody decides you give what you have. You are not being forced to, you have to give this or not. So people who have more money, they give more money? Definitely yes. Do you ever have disputes over this that you have to judge? No. Because they always agree. Yeah. I'm surprised they always agree. In my country they would not always agree. I don't know why. I think in this country of ours you don't have. We don't do it later. If you could change something about the government in Kenya, like what would you change? What's the biggest problem? If you, if I could. You could change something about government here.

25:00They would do something new. Stop doing something bad. Change some law. What would you change? For that one, I could say there's nothing I can or I cannot change. Of course, I depend with what my government tells me to do. Yes. So there's nothing you can change. And not unless the government's coming and telling me, she is this and she is this. Yes. Yes. They have a leaders that you have elected them. Yes. So we have to follow what they tell us to do. But sometimes, do you wish they would tell you different things? We as the elders, we don't dispute with the government. We don't dispute. Yeah, we don't.

25:39And you help enforce it in a way, right? And we don't force them to do things. Yeah. We depend on what they tell us. Yeah. Yeah. Women's rights movements in Kenya. Do you see a lot of that feminism? Bigger role for women, more women working? Well, for women, let's say I can't talk much. Even though they have their own lights. So what do you think of feminism in Kenya? Women should work, have equal say as the men, have more rights. We are equal here. All equal. Women have their rights and we do have their own rights. Yeah. So you think women have equal rights already? Even though when we come to a community, there are some stages that we limit.

26:26You cannot expect a woman to be controlling a money. No. And in government, how many women are there? That's not a cancee. But the president is not a woman, right? People in the legislature, they're mostly men. No, even women. We created another... Let's say, in a sense, we have women left. So that they could bring that together to be almost the same. Yeah. How was it here during times of COVID? Was it a big change or not so much? Well, but then the level was too hard, because that is something that we are not used with. Yes. Yes, we had a very hard time. Things closed down or everything stayed open?

27:16Things closed down. We had to stay indoors. There was a lot of coffee, the time that you need to work, you are told you know you can't go. How many people got COVID? Actually I cannot tell you the actual figure but a lot of people. Did you? No I didn't. So you were lucky. Let's say it's God. Because I also went for the fascination. I took the home medication. So I thought. So you took vaccine? Yeah, I did. And most people did here? Yeah. Which vaccine? Was it Chinese, American? Do you know British? They were all, the people were taking off. Do you know which one you had? I can't remember. Actually.

28:02Yeah. How was it to stay at home for so long? I mean, was that hard? No, it was hard. It was tough. Because you cannot expect being two that the ones stay at home and you are not used to it. Yeah. It's a very hard in many places. And we lost a lot. A lot of people died. Not even economically lost a lot. And I think that what that time of COVID is the one that brought even these hardships you have even today. We have not yet the time to learn because of that period. How much do you worry about crime? People stealing things from you is crime a big problem for you or do you feel it's very safe? Well, sometimes back, let's say in two or three years there were a lot of crime, but no disease.

28:55The government have tried to look like they raise a crime in these areas of ours. With more police or what do they do? Not even more police, also involved in the community. We started a government decided to introduce this thing called you Bakumi. Yes. When it was introduced, then you Bakumi, if they noted that somebody who is not good in that family, they had to report. They had me understand, so that person could be dealt with. And it did help a lot. At the same time, they also used the Wazez and whatever in the community to identify all these drugs and whatever. And you think crime will keep on getting better in Kenya for this reason.