Jack Clark on AI's Uneven Impact

27:27I don't know that there's global governance bodies that will be formed. Some people feel optimistic about stuff like IAEA, style models for this, but I think things that require mutual inspection regimes end up being very, very hard to do under certain, certain rivalrous dynamics. I worry we're in a world where NAFTA has not stuck. NAFTA is one of the easiest agreements. NAFTA should have been easy. It should have been easy and it's not to say the least. So say 10 years out, what's your best estimate of the economic growth rate in the United States? I mean, the economic growth rate now is on the order of one's two percent.

28:05There's a chance at the moment we're entering a recession, but it would average 2 .2%. So let's say it's 2 .2. I think my bare case on all of this is 3 % and my bull case is something like five. I think that you probably hear like higher numbers from lots of other 20 and 30 I hear all the time to me it's subsurban yeah and the reason that my numbers are more conservative is I think that We will enter into a world where there will be an incredibly fast moving high -growth part of the economy But it is a relatively small part of the economy and it may be growing its share over time But it's growing from like a small base and remember a large parts of the economy like healthcare or other things which are naturally slow moving and maybe slow in adoption of this.

28:53I think that the things that would make me wrong are if AI systems could meaningfully unlock productive capacity in the physical world at a really surprisingly high compounding growth rate, you know, automating and building factories and things like this. But even then I'm skeptical because because every time the AI community has tried to cross the chasm from the digital world to the real world, they've run into like 10 ,000 problems that they fought with paper cuts, but in some add up to you losing all the blood in your body. And I think we've seen this with self -driving cars where very, very promising growth rate and then an incredibly grinding slow pace at getting it to scale.

29:36I just read a paper two days ago about trying to train human -like hands on industrial robots using reinforcement learning. Doesn't work. The best they have was a 60 % success rate. So if I have my baby and I give her like a robot butt love it has a 60 % accuracy rate at holding things, including the baby. I'm not buying the butt love. It's like, all my wife is incredibly unhappy, unhappy, even I bought it and makes me send it back. So I think as a community, we tend to underestimate that. And I may be proved to be an unrealistic pessimist here. I think that's what many of my colleagues would say, but I think we overestimate the ease with which we get into a physical world.

30:21And so I said in print, my best estimate is we get half a percentage point of growth a year, 5 % would be my upper bound. Yeah. What's your scenario where there's no growth improvement? Or if it's not yours, say, there's a smart person somewhere in Anthropic, you don't agree with them. But what would they say? I think one is something that you touched on earlier where we could get the politics of this really wrong and the technology could just get put in a relatively small box that does some economic goods somewhere but at a very, very small constrained amount. That's the kind of like nuclear power failure mode story where we do some kind of large scale regulatory scheme, we make it hard to do this stuff, it ceases to have much of an effect.

31:00Maybe it has an effect elsewhere. The other case I'd give would be, well, it's very hard for me to give like a 0 % case because we know today it's incredibly useful for coding and if you just stopped all of it today or further progress, I think the coding use case alone is going to be incredibly useful because it grows the ability to digitize parts of the economy, which we know drives like faster loops in different parts of the economy, but generates value. I think 0 % is basically sub 1 % chance of happening. And if it did, it would be a lull -out thing or something that looked like war with Taiwan leading to everything else looking different as well.

31:48In the 5 % scenario, put aside San Francisco, which is special. But the cities become more or less important. Clearly the city might become more important. But say Chicago at Lanna, what happens? I think that dense agglomeration of humans have significant amounts of value. And I would expect that a lot of the effects of AI are going to be for a while massively increasing the superstar effect in different industries. So I don't know if it's all cities, but I think any city which has something like a specialism, like high -frequency trading and Chicago, certain types of finance in New York will continue to see some dividend from sets of professionals that gather together in dense quantities to swap ideas.

32:33But could it just be easier to stay at home and more fun? So I find I'm an outlier, but my use of AI, I either want to go somewhere very distant and use the AI there to learn about say the birds of region or I want to stay at home. So it's a barbell's effect and the idea of driving 35 minutes to Washington DC, that seems less appealing than it used to be. Yeah, maybe I just have a different personality. I feel like, or maybe it's that I work in a really, really confusing domain and I need to go and talk to other people who work in the confusing domain to to get remotely oriented. I think they're revealed preference from stuff like COVID as if they have a greater desire for certain types of social thing that they may have fought and now they're bouncing back to it, but it's going to interplay slightly differently with cities.

33:19If so much of labor in capital is going to be revalued, is quality land the best investment? Because I don't know which firms will benefit the most, right? So you might bet on AI firms that share that's kind of easy, though it'll be priced in. But the other firms, who knows?

33:41So you know, electricity and the production of electricity is going to be of tremendous value. But what's the thing you would buy? I think you buy components that go into things like gas turbines and other things which are the base of the technology tree for generating electricity of which you know people are going to want to do lots of. You could buy a basket of different components here. I would expect that to be a durable, meaningful value. Let's say it's 10 years from now, GPUs are their successor, they're not their scarce. There's a lot of vital capacity just sitting around. What do you, and let's say it's very cheap, what do you have it do in its spare time?

34:20Oh, that's fun. I mean, I think one of the things is you might just pay AI systems by giving them access to compute, right? You could imagine some kind of butter economy, now for a range of bone -chilling safety problems of what I just said, but let's like put that aside in the scene that those are mostly dealt with. I think there'll be some form of trade with powerful AI systems or agents that work on people's behalf and you may want to trade with them a form of compute because agents may be able to use compute for themselves as well. So that's some of it. I think the other part is generating interesting permutations of stuff that you find kind of valuable or interesting.

34:59I also suspect that we're going to be very weird things we can't anticipate, but look like a form of entertainment that looks like parallel history generation or parallel future generation. I think people are always fascinated by what ifs and rollouts of what ifs. In fan fiction, I think people grow exponentially. Yeah. I think large amounts of compute get used to generate alternate realities. But some of the alternate realities will be sliding door versions of today, where it's a very accurate portrayal, but with one difference. And just what would you do personally? I'm not saying the world, but just you, Jack Clark, you have all this recompute.

35:40Will you have a try to write another play by Shakespeare or something else or how bright and might have developed differently from year 1830? Or what are you going to do with it? The thing which I currently do with Claude Code is I'm trying to write a really detailed good paperclip factory simulator, partly because of the inherent comedy of it, but also because I find these very complex simulation games incredibly fun and engaging, and I also think there's a massive space in which you can create them, of which we've only created a tiny subset. And one of the things that we haven't ever really done is because it's computationally so unbelievably expensive, is actually put AIs as agents inside the games.

36:24Really early attempts are actually, Demis of Deep Mind, before he did Deep Mind, he did a game called Black and White, which had actual, like, very primitive reinforcement learning driven agents playing in the game. I mean, there's tons of stuff you can do there, which would be amazingly interesting. Speaking of agents, how should the law deal with agents that are not owned? Maybe they're generated in a way that's anonymously, or maybe a philanthropist builds them and disavow his ownership or sends them to a country where in essence there's not much law. And I'm not talking about terrorism. That's a separate, but just someone sends an agent to Africa, 98 % of what it does helps people.

37:03But as with every charity, some things go wrong, right? There's some problems. Can someone sue the agent or how is it capitalized? Is that a legal identity? I will partially contradict myself where earlier I talked about maybe you're going to be paying agents, I think that the pressure of the world is towards agents having some level of independence or like trading ability. But from a policy standpoint, I'm reminded of that early thing that IBM said, which was a computer cannot be accountable to a decision only humans can. And I think it got it something quite important where if you create agents for the wholly independent from people, but are making decisions that affect people, you've introduced a really difficult problem for the policy and legal system to deal with.

37:49So I'm dodging your question because I don't have an answer to it. I think it's a big problem question. My guess is we should have law for the agents, and maybe the AI's write that law, and they have their own system. I worry that if you trace it all back to humans, someone could sue anthropic, you know, 30 years from now. Oh, well someone's agent was an offshoot of one of your systems. Well, it was mediated through Chinese Monos, but that in turn may have been built upon things that you did. And I don't think you should be at all liable for that. So I see liability getting out of control in so many cases.

38:23I want to choke it off and isolate it somewhat from the mainstream legal system. And if need be, you require that an independent agent is either somewhat capitalized or it gets hunted down and shut off. Yeah, it might be that, along with what you said, having means to control and change for resources that agents use could be some of the path here, because it's the ultimate disincentive. Although I will note that this involves pretty tricky questions of moral patienthood, where we're working on some notions around how to get clearer on bad at anthropic, and if you actually believe that these AI agents are moral patients, then turning them off introduces which is like pretty significant ethical issues potentially, so you need to reconcile these two things.

39:11I was not too long ago at an event with some highly prestigious people. This was in New York, of course, not San Francisco. That's where prestigious people hang out. Well, and I used the phrase AGI, and not one of the five even knew what I meant. I don't mean they were skeptical in the deep sense, maybe one should be, but they just literally didn't know what I meant. What was your model of why so many people are still in a fog? I am a technological pessimist who sort of became an optimist through repeated meetings over the head of scale. And what I mean by this is I've consistently underestimated AI progress.

39:48You know, maybe I am today in this conversation when I talk about three to five percent growth rates. And what has happened is I have just endlessly seen the AI system get to where I thought it couldn't or thought would take a long time much faster than I thought and so I've had to internalize this repeatedly. Nonetheless, we ourselves find it surprising. I mean, last year here, people were saying, oh, well, soon, Claude is going to be doing most of the coding at Anthropic. We're now on the way to that where Claude, and other things are writing tons of code here and it still felt surprising internally, even though we have docs from last year, predicting it would happen about now.

40:31So most people outside of the AI labs have no experience of pre -registering their predictions about AI and it getting proved wrong to them repeatedly, because why would you do this unless you work here? And I found that the only way to break through is to take their domain and show them what AI can do directly in the domain which vacant evaluate weight it within, which is an expensive process. Silicon Valley up until now has been age of the nerds. Do you feel that time is over? And it's now, error of the, I don't know, humanities majors or the charismatic people or what? It's my time, Tyler. Your time.

41:10I think it's actually going to be the era of the manager nerds now where I think being being able to manage fleets of AI agents and orchestrate them is going to make people incredibly powerful. I think we already see this today with start -ups that are emerging but have very small numbers of employees relative to what they used to have because they have lots of coding agents. Like mid -Jerny, right? Yeah. Incredibly like efficient start -up in terms of people. So we're going to see this rise of the, yeah, the nerd turned manager who has their people, but their people are actually instances of AI agents doing large amounts of work for them.

41:53So it's still the Bill Gates model? Yeah. Or the Patrick Collison model? Yeah. So it's not that different. People that played lots of factorial model. Yeah. Will the English major rise or fall in status? I suspect that the humanities may might rise in status while being given impossible problems. Sort of, you know, I'm a humanities major originally and I'm being given problems like solve the economic policy challenges employed by technologically driven like unemployment. Well, that's easy, right? Easy, right? Or some people are saying, yeah, like what should we do about moral patienthood? And what should the policy, the policy situation be?

42:37So I think there's going to be a recognition and we see this today that there are other skills needed, but the problems for those skills are needed for are often problems which have proved to be impossible for humans to adequately solve for thousands of years. So there's lots of work, I guess. What do you think will be the life expectancy of your child? Accident aside, just normal life. I feel like 130 is sort of 130 to 50 is not, I wouldn't find surprising, I'm good, because I feel like we are discovering that there's tons and tons of stuff that we're learning about the body and about things like gene therapies and other things, which seem like there's a load of interventions you can do that might stack on one another to actually durably extend life, healthy life spans for some period of time.

43:29And I was going to say 110 and then I tried to be a technological optimist So I added a couple of decades on top, which I'm assuming comes from magic AI -driven advances, but I have underestimated the inverse response. I think the brain is very hard to fix. If you just wanted to keep someone alive, literally, perhaps 130, but for them to be the same person, I think I'm stuck at 100 for most people. It's just hard to replace the brain without killing someone. You can replace all the other organs, right? Yeah, I think I mean here I subscribe to the idea that there's a ton we don't understand about the brain and AI is going to help us understand loads more and there might be things that can be done here which have eluded us because they are so unbelievably complicated we needed AI mediated tools to help us figure out the experiments and approaches.

44:19When Jeffrey Hinton says that right now the AI is unconscious, which I think is what he says. I believe he's crazy. What do you think? I think that he's... You can be more polite than I am. That's fine. Well, no, I'm... But how I would phrase this is that I agonize about this. And you know, you read my newsletter, I write fictional stories in it often, which are me grappling with this question, I worry that we are going to be bystanders to what in the future will seem like a great crime, which is something about these things being determined to be conscious, and us taking actions which you think are bad to have taken against conscious entities.

45:03Internally, I say there's a difference between doing experiments on potatoes and on monkeys. I think we're still in a potato regime, but I think that there is actually a clear line by which these things become monkeys and then beyond in terms of your moral relationship to them. To Hinton's point, I think that these things are conscious in the sense that a tongue without a brain is conscious, right? It takes actions in response to stimuli that are really, really, really complicated and in a moment it has a sense impression of the world and is responding, but does it have a sense of self? I would wager, no, it doesn't seem like it does.

45:40These AI systems, we instantiate them and they live in a kind of infinite now where they may perceive and they may have some awareness within a context window, but there's no memory or permanence. So to me, it feels like we're on a trajectory heading towards consciousness. And if they're conscious today, it's in a form that we would recognize as like truly alien consciousness, not human consciousness. us. In what year do you think you'll be able to speak directly to a dolphin? And it will talk back with a translator, of course. I think 2030 or sooner. I think that one's coming soon. And what will you ask the dolphin?

46:18Because you'll be in a position, you'll be early in the queue to ask, right? I think what do you want to know? How do you have fun? Dolphin seems to have fun. Like they're almost a famously fun having species. I think you'd ask that. I think you'd ask them if they dream. I think you'd ask them if they had a notion of grief. I think you'd also ask them like, what is mysterious to them about their world? Besides the fact you're talking to them, which hopefully they'd find somewhat surprising. I also think that you can talk to dogs as well, but that'll be, I think those conversations now can be, like, unsurprising.

46:50What do you want to do? I'll say, walk. And I was like, okay, well, we didn't even translate it for this one. What to book? You think more and more about these days? There is no anti -mimetics division by QNTM, which is this book about a government agency that is dealing with anti -memes, ideas that erase themselves from your memory after you've dealt with them, but are themselves important, and it's about creating a bureaucracy that can handle ideas which are themselves dangerous and self -arrasing, because I think it gets at some of the problems that we're experiencing. And the other book that I think about a lot and might be especially relevant to you is A historian and economist called Fernand Braldell wrote a book called Capitalism and Materials.

47:33Oh, I love those. Three volumes. Incredible. And I read it. I read it in the university and I returned to it recently because it makes this point that you can look at how people's lives change through just the things they had available like, you know, cutlery or whatever, or basic tools. And I think about AI through that lens. How is AI going to actually change my material life? And it comes to why I'm skeptical about some of the more ambitious forms of change. Is the actual change in our day -to -day lives has been very, very, very slow, even with these advances. But if you read those books, it seems like the most significant things stem from changes in everyone's material day -to -day.

48:12They're reissuing the anti -mimetic book, by the way, at a much higher price. But what would be an anti -meme today? Or maybe you can't remember them? I mean, a self -arrasing idea. or well what's a good example? I think that maybe it's more that the the challenge of policy is you're building a bureaucracy for an alien that arrives at some point in the future that you don't know the the shape of and which may a upon be a moment of its arrival, be far smarter and more capable than you. So you don't know if this is just an insane exercise to do. And I oscillate between being, hey, we should build all of these institutions so that we can measure stuff and see what happens and be able to take responses to a cyberpunk accelerationist where actually we just need companies to create benefits as quickly as possible and the system will figure out how to deal with that.

49:15And I find this to be a crazy making thing I'm trapped inside. I suspect we're stuck with the ladder even if we don't prefer it. No one loves that though. Well, a small number of people, some in San Francisco love that, but if you say to politicians, you're like, what we'll do is we'll create really fast -moving companies that completely break conventions and change everything and you'll have to figure it out. It's a hard pill to swallow and it may be what actually naturally happens. They say they don't love it and I believe they're sincere, but they don't take a quick action to be on the other course.

49:48So in that sense, they accept it. Yeah, by revealed preference, it's what they accept. But the system is not well geared to respond, in any case, right? Yeah, the system is a big, slow -moving cog and we have a really fast -moving cog here and we have none of the gears between them that translate the movement from one end to the other. What will happen to a lot of national governments? So let's say I'm the government of Peru and I turn my education system over to AI's which are probably American right and then well my social security system my national defense just keep on adding to the stack and all of a sudden Most of Peru is run by in a sense not run by but American AI company.

50:28So I mean what what is the government of Peru and that's an area What is the government of Peru in a world where Google and Facebook is it the same or they don't make better decisions in Peruvian government than the current Peruvian government. So Peruvian bureaucrats make Google things, but that's just added on top to the current Peruvian government. But if for all their decisions are a lot of the big decisions, the kids are taught by AI, AI drones and detection systems. It's all AI, some of it's LLMs. What's the Peruvian part in there? We did some work on this called collective constitutional AI at Anfropeq where Claude has a constitution and then we did this exercise of looking across America to find additional constitutional principles that might need to be included in it.

51:16And we looked for ones with high agreement and also ones of low agreement. I think government will have some role of making sure that things reflect the normative preferences of their populations which are going to continue to be varied, although perhaps AI means a certain homogenization takes place over time, but a lot of the role of government, I think, has always been to represent and encode the revealed values of a certain population. And I think that work is not going away. You're going to need to adapt these systems and inject certain values into them for the people that are using them and customers of them.

51:52A lot of that could be fig leafs, though. So maybe the AI is they speak with Peruvian accents. There's the Peruvian flag on all the smartphones. Are there success or device? devices, they're like AI break room and take it all off or something. And just act like AIs and do the right thing. To me, it seems that world actually is better. I'm not sure people want it. But that's the world we're in now with, you know, certain forms of capital and capitalism. You'll say like stakeholder capitalism and there'll be a very small amount of stuff like what you just described in Benviath or Fingers, just like capital making decisions.

52:24Right. If Manus and Deep Seek are to some extent built upon American models, does that mean we've the one the soft power war that these models have a kind of soul, the soul of Claude, soul of GPT, and China if it embraces them. I wouldn't say surrendering, but the CCP over time loses control. I think the former might be true and the latter is probably not true. So the former is the values of the most like widely used systems will have some kind of cultural export effects just like media today where so much of Hollywood like defined a cultural imprint from which many many other forms of media like stemmed from.

53:05The same will be true of AI systems. I don't think that this is going to particularly change how well positioned the CCP or other governments are because just as they did with media, they recognize AI is a technology, but it also has a media technology property and they will very carefully work on that. And it's notable above it, if you look at deep seek, the one form of safety training they did do was about adherence to certain parts of CCP ideology. It's one of the only... It won't talk about Taiwan in various ways. Quite careful. Yeah. But in terms of its soul, isn't it still rather cosmopolitan, rather friendly, of good humor, and the CCP ends up in biving that soul and slowly but surely, a funny case where an alignment is what you want.

53:50Yeah. The CCP no longer being thus some artist entity in China, in essence is turning over the keys to the shop. I think that's a very positive vision, and I also think for this something that it would be obvious to everyone, including people in the CCP today. So I sort of imagine that there is going to be a pushback against what you described and an attempt to create very powerful AI systems with radically different values. I think there's also a chance they just try to shut the whole thing down. As they gave up on an AV much earlier in their history in China. Do you think there'll be many countries that just refuse?

54:25I mean, AI's a loosely defined term, but you know what, they just refuse AI and strong LLMs. I think there'll be a small, very small minority of countries that do this. I think that over time most countries have been integrated into this kind of global capital system, partly through strong incentives, and they may have preferences but are different, but it hasn't often held. But it will be a much bigger change than just having smartphones, right? Some of this will appear as more minor than smartphones or as riders on top of a smartphone. I think that there might be countries that choose how fully to alter themselves or life around this technology.

55:08And there will be some countries where you get it as like an ad orn or it's a tool you occasionally use in other countries where you're much more immersed in it. How do you think about the aesthetics of the Anthropic Office where we are right now? It looks a certain way, why? Well, some of it is but we inherited it and it was slightly cheap so it wasn't fully fully changed over. It was partly reflects our brand which is oriented around trying to be, you know, tasteful and thoughtful and also not too flashy. There's a certain kind of cheerful blankness to it which I quite like. I'm very sorry to any of our designers that may see this section of a podcast, but we have to keep it in in the spirit of being epistemically honest.

55:52I think that one thing we do, though, is we chose to have these kind of human illustrations of our systems. And that was an early intentional choice. I, I and others looked at some of the earlier designs and there were designs that were very tech -focused and also brand identities which involved like collage and other things. But we went for these kind of human drawings because we are going to forever be trying to describe an increasingly complicated world that we are also creating. And I think in the limit, like a lot of what Anthropic is actually going to be doing as a company, is telling the story of what an increasingly automated AI Anthropic has done.

56:33So some of the brand links through to what I think will ultimately be where we spend most of our time. for the ongoing AI revolution. What's the worst age to be? So say the best age is just to have been born if you're going to live to maybe a hundred and thirty. And if you're very old and retired, it probably isn't going to make you anywhere so off, it'll help you in some ways. I feel like people who worked on AI for many years and are now in their sixties might be feeling very short -changed because very like I love this technology, I really wanted to make this technology real, but technology is now becoming real and I'm going to like maybe miss Some of the most interesting parts of it as it makes its way into the world.

57:14I think that could be kind of gaulling But they can retire, right? So say I'm 40 and I did something Upper middle class, but fairly routine It feels a bit all to easily retrain I guess as people who are 40 are the worst off in relative terms even though they might live longer You could be right. I also think that there's some chance that the Word stage to be is to maybe be 10 or so because you are now Computer literate you're sophisticated. You're going into an education system that is needing to react to this technology You will be using the technology in a way completely different to your education system And it might just feel violently confusing that could also be I see being a really different difficult time.

58:04Let's say you're flown into Washington, put aside any idiosyncrasies of the current administration, and you're asked for advice. What do we do with these government agencies to get them ready for AGI? What do you tell them? One of the things is just try to deploy AI right now and discover all of the things that makes it incredibly difficult and then sort of... So what does deploy AI mean? So people are reluctant to send legal queries to anthropic to open AI. So they're not going to do that just yet, even if it might make sense. What should they actually do now? Well, concretely, it's you work back from what does it take to get it on every single computer of every single person and then you discover some of the concerns.

58:46Some of the concerns might be like, where does the day to go or other things? Well, then you you work out if that's a problem you care about or not. If you don't care about it, you ignore over -problem and consciously do. If you do care about it, you turn that into a very small number of prescriptions that the companies need to follow, but you need to attach that probably to a market signal. Or you do a project of trying to take some of the open weight models, some of which are very good, and just get them on computers, and then once they're on computers you can work out, hey, maybe we want to buy this, what are the requirements.

59:18But I think you start from the most ambitious possible goal, which is it being available to every single person and you work back from that. Is the UK going to become an important day, I hub? I hope so. But will they? And what should they do? I think they have a chance of it. We have a memorandum of understanding of the UK government which we signed, which is about trying to see if we can find ways this can be helpful. I think the onus is really on government to figure out where they're willing to take like big swings. The UK has digitized huge amounts of its data. it also has Gov .uk, which is a similar almost to like Estonia, a highly digitized frontend to many different UK government surfaces.

1:00:00That's the kind of thing where surely AI can be used to make a difference. So try and use it. Also, if you have a load of post -industrial areas where you provision loads of power that is no longer being used, try to see if you can allocate that for compute. I think thinking about the economics of this is important. I feel like the economics of inference are going to become important and there might be something we want to think about on taxing inference differently according to where it happens but could present an opportunity as well. Will it be cost effective for Singapore to build its own quality AI systems?

1:00:35Because they have money but they're small, right? It'll be cost effective for Singapore to build things that make large -scale AI systems built by outside of Singapore work in a Singaporean context. But I think it's going to be very difficult call for them to build, say, a foundation model that is going to cater to their needs better than the ones that are offered by the large companies in the US and perhaps China today. So they'll take open source but make it Singaporean? They will also probably do that as well. Or the major companies will somehow allow governments to custom design systems. Yeah.

1:01:10I think today you have fine -tuning services which are offered and you could imagine fine -tuning AI systems into a software and AI system, which is then has some governance arrangement attached to it, but Singapore has, but that doesn't seem out of the realms of possibility. Very last question. What is it you hope to learn about next? I mean, there are two things that I'm spending a lot of time on. One is just theory of mind. How do we actually figure out how things are thinking and also maybe ways to test for theory of mind? I'm reading a lot of the literature on BAT. And the other thing which is a lot more mundane is I'm learning to juggle.

1:01:48I go on long walks and I'm trying to juggle while going on these walks, which I think looks completely crazy person behavior, but I find it very centering. And how good are you with juggling? Very bad right now, but that's good. It gives me something that I can derive meaning from as we head into an increasingly AI -driven age. Jack Clark, thank you very much. Thanks very much. Thanks for listening to Conversations with Tyler. You can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review.

1:02:24This helps other listeners find the show. On Twitter, I'm At Tyler Cowan, and the show is At Cowan Convose. Until next time, please keep listening and learning.