Lazarus Lake on Endurance, Uncertainty, and Reaching One’s Potential

0:04Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, bridging the gap between academic ideas and real world problems. Learn more at mercatis .org. For full transcript of every conversation, enhanced with helpful links, visit ConversationsWithTyler .com Hello everyone and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today we have a running episode. I am chatting with Gary Cantrell who is better known as Lazarus Lake. He is an endurance race designer and director as well as a former runner himself. He does ultra marathons. His races include the Barclay Marathons, Bigs Backyard Ultra, Vault State 500K, a race for the ages and much more.

0:54Lazarus is also star of a 2014 film, The Barkley Marathons, The Race That Eats Its Young. Wikipedia states, and I quote, "'His races are known to be especially grueling. Trailrunner magazine called him an evil genius. The Leonardo da Vinci of Pain, a master of Sadomasochistic craft. Yet his races have developed in almost cult -like following. My view, of course, as your podcast -host is much more positive than that. Since Lazarus' event at Frozen Head State Park began in 1986, only 17 people have finished it. In most years there are no finishers at all within the 60 -hour time limit. Entrance pay, I believe, $1 .60 to face the challenge.

1:42Lazarus also has worked as an accountant and a city treasurer. Lazarus, welcome. How is it going? All is going well. I have some very simple questions about what you do. What is running 100 miles tell you about yourself that running 26 miles does not. I guess it probably tells you four times as much about yourself. It's not really an extension of the same thing. It's a whole day instead of just a morning. And people come away and they report what to you about what they learned. Well, I think each time you step up a level you find out that you can do a lot more than you thought you could do. Do you think that's true in most human spheres of endeavor?

2:25I think it would be true in all of them. I think that the experiences people have improved them across the sphere of their lives. Why are there so many STEM professionals doing your ultramarathons? Why are they so well represented? Because the races that we have, the one like Barclay is, it's a problem -solving exercise. There are a lot of different variables that you have to be able to master in order to be able to complete it. And they like challenges. And what would some of those variables be? Of course, you have to be able to use a map encompass. You don't have to be the world's greatest orientering expert, but you have to be competent.

3:13You have to be able to find your way around in the woods. You have to be able to manage your own physical well -being because there's no aid stations. So you have to pack and prepare for what you need to maintain your run. And then in addition at frozen ed, you have a highly variable climate that you could encounter. It could be 80 degrees and 15 degrees on the same loop. And how did the runners manage their water supplies? They have to carry it with them. We put a couple of water drops out on the course so that they could restock. But if it's below freezing, that water might be frozen and they might have to find some and a stream somewhere or a spring.

4:00And of all of those skills, which is the most scarce, which holds people back the most, apart from just the running and the endurance, what are they most likely to screw up? I think these days, navigation is a bigger problem than it used to be because people have become dependent upon GPS. And if you don't use part of your brain, And it kind of withers. So if you're not accustomed to knowing in your head where you are and just listening for a little voice to tell you when to turn next, it's something of a problem because they don't get to take GPS. And so they literally end up lost in the woods, some people.

4:45It happens. And what happens to the men? They stay there for the rest of their lives. they want to slowly back to civilization or what becomes of them. They send out a call for help. If they don't find their way out and a couple of days will go look for them, but usually they will so far they've always found their way out. Sometimes they wander around for an extended period of time loss, but that's what they signed up for. They're on their own with all the electronics and all the things that the conveniences of modern life are gone and they just rely on themselves. And if someone sprains an ankle eventually you find them or they try to hobble back.

5:27We have a 100 % self -extraction including a couple of broken ankles dislocated, clavicle, a fracture knee cap. The people that do this are kind of a different breed. They're physically pretty tough and they get themselves out. How many military people, or say former Navy SEALs do this, or are they not a major clientel? You do get special forces not just from the US but from other countries. It's the kind of thing that appeals to them. And you had some Ukrainians recently, is that correct? We have people from all over the world. I know we've had Ukrainians in the past. I'm not sure we've had one in the last couple of years.

6:08And if you think about the motivations of these people, how much is it they're bored with their old goals or how much they want to show status or are they wrestling with inner demons or all of the above? How do you think about what brings them to do this? Of course, different people would do it for different reasons, but for the most part, they're really seeking the freedom that comes with being totally dependent on yourself. And then on top of that is the challenge of doing something that it's about a 1 % finish rate. you have selected the best of the best and out of those only the 1 % make it.

6:49And everybody would like to think that they're 1 % of the 1%. And before your health interfered, you used to run ultra marathons. What were your goals? I was never more than a mediocre runner, so my goals were to do better than I had done before. I said, lofty goals didn't always achieve them. I actually thought at one point I could finish the Barclay. Did you try? Oh yeah, I got my, I tell people I got my hundred miles but it took five years, which is not a bad time at the Barclay. You've designed the course, right? So in terms of when and where to turn you would know that more automatically than the other participants.

7:31I definitely had a big leg up on finding my way but I actually did take a wrong turn once that cost me about four hours. Let's say a friend of yours went to you and said they wanted to train their kids or their grandkids in resilience. Sticking with it, durability. What advice would you give them based on what you've learned? I think being in any any sport helps you develop those characteristics. I would recommend for kids that they play sports that are appropriate to their age with people age. If they were a runner, they should run track and field and run on the school team or the club team with other athletes, they're the same age.

8:16The ultramarathons are more more a place where older people are involved. When you say older, you mean in their 30s or much older? From their 30s up, we have the after race, a race for the ages. We'll have 35 I've heard 40 runners in the field every year that are over 70 with the oldest runners up into their 90s. How old do you think is the oldest finisher of the 17? That's easy. David Horton did it when he was 50. It was his 11th attempt. Do you think it's possible to do it at 70? No. But it's not really possible to do it at 50. But someone did it. Someone did it. But I think that's what we like to do the impossible.

9:07What's special about that guy who did it at 50? David Horton, he's one of the great ultra runners. He's considerably older than 50 now, but he was through his career one of the better ultra runners in the country. and he just he was good at all the skill sets and he kept trying and honing it down. He had several near misses before he finally got it. Why is it that it's running as a sport that is correlated with the endurance mentality? So I never see like endurance tennis matches or endurance basketball games, not even endurance podcasts. Why running? I guess because it lends itself to it, people want to see how far they can go.

9:56The people who want to do that, if you think of the evolution since 1986, how have those people changed as a group or a class of participants? Humans have a collective ability. I guess that's unique among animals that we can compare what we've learned and learn from each other. And the skill sets of the people that tried it first in 1986 were not comparable to today. And the equipment is a lot better. In 1986, state -of -the -art lighting was a carbide lamp because your old flashlights with the bulb. You'd have to carry 10 pounds of batteries to get you through the night with good light. And now they have those little LED bulbs and it just takes a battery for the whole race.

10:44And as for the people themselves, what's the main dimension along which they've improved? Just all of the fine skills of finding their way using the map, how to prepare the map, how to, what to carry for nutrition. Of course they have, their clothing is improved as much as their lights have. You don't have to carry as bulky of clothing. but you have to carry a light enough pack that it doesn't destroy you to carry it up and down all those big hills. But you have to be able to cope with it being 80 degrees or to be 15 degrees. Now I read one source online, it suggested that going up and down the hills was basically the equivalent of twice the height of Mount Everest.

11:30Is that true? It's a little more than that and that would be from sea level. I don't know why that's an important distinction to me because it doesn't mean anything to most people, but you know, from the base of Everest to the top is not 29 ,000 feet. That's how high the peak is from sea level. Okay. And all this is taking place in eastern Tennessee, is that correct? It is. They're little puny mountains by western standard. The highest peak is 3 ,380 feet. It's only about 2 ,000 feet from the bottom of the mountains to the top. You just do that distance repeatedly and they're extremely steep because of the geology of the area.

12:14Would you describe it as fairly rocky or what else would you say about the environment? It's pretty rocky but there's a lot of undergrowth. It's not as rocky as the western mountains which are newer and don't have as much soil and undergrowth on them, plus they extend higher into the atmosphere. What's the chance you run into a bear? Not very good because you're making too much noise. You'll probably be around a bear, but they'll hear you long before you get close. Which are the elements of those races that most often break people when they break? I think it's the cumulative climb. The race is 100 miles and the time limit is extremely slow by 100 miles for people who run distance or thinking 100 miles and 24 hours is hard.

13:09This one gives you 60 hours. So they perceive it as being a extremely extended low level effort. But because that the pitch is so extreme, It's actually a really slow time which requires you to have all of your gauges we like to say on the red line. You're pushing it as close as you can get to blowing your motor. But pacing themselves is one of the skills they need to have, is that correct? So, yes, they have to be physically in the best condition of their lives. The training takes people right to the edge of injury, just training for it. And then you have to be able to push your body to its maximum extent without something breaking down.

13:58Are you ever worried about government regulation intervening and stopping what you're doing? Would they allow this in Massachusetts? I think that we're greatly aided by being kind of grandfathered in. I know I look when people try to set up similar events, say in Europe, they make them put a tracker on everybody. Because the government wants to protect you from yourself. But we've always done it, and they'll say, well, the tracker wouldn't make a difference because it doesn't tell the runner where they are. But it tells the runner someone knows where they are. And when they get out there to make these decisions on how to approach different things, They have to bear in mind there's no tracker on them.

14:45Nobody knows where they are. If they do something really stupid, they're going to end up being somewhere that they have to wait till someone finds them. And it does have an effect even if it doesn't tell you where you are. In today's world, being totally separate from your electronics is, in 1986 it wasn't that big of a deal because you weren't constantly in contact, but now people are, they're wired all the time. So they have a kind of withdrawal, some of them. Like, oh my goodness, where's my email? No, they have plenty to occupy their mind. Probably if you just took all their electronics away and sent them on an average day, it'd be a struggle.

15:30It would be a struggle for me without my email to check. What am I going to do? Do you think it's easier when people say, Oh, I'm just going to take this race one step at a time. Or is that a mistake? It's a combination. In any of the endurance events, you really have to have two things in your mind. One is that you're focused on finishing. You can't do a hundred -mile or any hundred -mile or and say, I'm going to run 50 miles and then evaluate. Because I can save you a lot of trouble. If 50 miles, you're going to decide to stop. But at the same time you have to live in the moment. You can't think about how much is ahead of you Because your mind just can't wrap itself around all of it at once If you're in a lot of discomfort right at this moment the race is having a trajectory You'll have up periods and down periods and up periods and down periods and when you're on the downslope Your mind just projects it to go down forever and you think oh, I can't go that look But if you just stay in the moment in a while, you'll find yourself in a better place.

16:42There's a researcher named Ethan Krauss and he's argued that if you keep on saying to yourself, you can do it. You can do it. A kind of self -talk. That helps. Do you agree? Hmm. For myself when I'm involved in something like this, there's not really time to give myself a pet talk. I'm totally absorbed with doing what I'm doing. I actually prefer to approach things with a little bit of doubt. Couple of years ago I walked across the country and people would tell you I walked from the East Coast to the West Coast. Why was, could still smell the ocean and people say you've got this? And I think, well, then why go through all this discomfort if I already know I can?

17:29So I believed I could make it to the Pacific Ocean when I topped the last mountain in the coastal range and I could see it. So you didn't just walk along into states? No, it was I walked some interstate, I walked open range. I cut across parking lots and I was committed to having a continued string of footprints from coast to coast, but I was not committed to them going any particular place, the easiest way I could get through the better. Did you listen to music or podcasts while you were walking? No, that would interfere with the voices in my head. And what do they tell you? Actually, I spent most of the time between days I would read about the geology of the area I'd just seen and read about the history and other things of the area I was going into.

18:20and then local people would tell me things about the places I was that otherwise you wouldn't know. It was an intense educational experience that really kept me mentally fully occupied all the way across. For ultra marathon, how much to shoes make a difference? I think it's that I prefer to wear shoes. I know there's people that go barefoot, but shoes are better. Why do they prefer bear fruit? That seems odd to me. I won't speculate because it's whether that it's a real, some real benefit to it or not, but she's greatly reduced the number of injuries you're going to get to the skin on your feet.

19:05How prevalent is doping when people do ultramarathons? I don't think it's really prevalent because there's not a lot of real motivation to do it. Nobody's making big bucks as an ultra marathoner, but I suspect you see it to some extent among people where you would wonder Why you know you're you're an age group competitor? You're not running at the front but About anything there is that people could do somebody does it. What are some possible ways people might try to cheat? Ah, the most common one is to cut part of the distance off. You do occasionally have people who cheat. Again, I read about them in Marathons and you would have the same, have periodically the same thing in ultra running.

19:58I don't think anybody except them really understands why they do it because ultra marathon performances don't mean anything to anybody but you. And you have a book page method to stop that, correct? And the Barclay, it's pretty effective. We have checkpoints that are paperback books. Everyone tears out the page of the book that matches their bib number. So we count all the book pages when they get back. And if they don't have the page, you figure they cheat it or somehow they just don't win. Well, no, if you don't have all your pages, you don't count it. doesn't matter. We don't really correlate it that you cheated.

20:38Usually people have lost a page, forgot to get a page. They've made some kind of other mistake. And they don't count as having one. If they're missing a page, that's it, right? No go. If they're missing a page, there's no go. How do you choose which books to put out? That's a lot of fun. We pick books that have appropriate titles. Such as? My favorite one was the last book on the loop that was... If I can read it, it wasn't always easy, but I sure had fun. But we kind of have a theme every year. One year the theme was the Barclay Marathons where dreams go to die. And another year it was the only thing that buckles here is your knees.

21:27buckling is a runner's term for finishing with a certain time and winning a belt buckle. So we take that year's theme and we try to pick books that kind of fit with the theme and then we go through the course and since we know when it starts and we know where it goes and you have an idea what runners have been through what they're coming to what time of day it is a little bit of a peek into their mind about what they're thinking or how they're feeling. You try to make the book titles match. At 90 % of the people they don't ever notice, but some of them they catch on and they think we're really messing with them with the way the book titles are laid out.

22:12Why don't you charge more than $1 .60 for people to run? It's only a small number of runners and we don't want it to be a feat of finance. You have a lot of things that people do, but it's really like going to the Titanic, going down on a submersible to see the Titanic doesn't require skill or dedication or effort, just money. So we don't want money to be the deciding factor for the Barclay. We want it to be a physical test, not a financial one. Why don't you charge less than a dollar sixty then? Well, then I wouldn't have money to buy Dr. Pepper's with. The early history of your races, how were they influenced by the experience of James Earl Ray?

23:05Not really at all. That's a connection that seems to be popular with the media because this is where he escaped and certainly it was a big national story. It was a bigger story in Tennessee than anywhere else. And it was really interesting to me because I had been hiking all through those mountains for years. And since I knew the terrain he was on, I was quite interested in seeing how he did. But I think any comparisons we make to James R. Arrayer kind of belittling his escape attempt more than anything else. He didn't even make it the equivalent of a loop. And that was with his supposed freedom at stake.

23:54The sign -up process for the Barclay Marathon, it's often considered opaque. How is it you decide who gets to run and who does not? Even though we try to make it a little bit difficult to even submit an application, we get way too many, they write an essay and you look at the essays and try to pick out people who are going to get something from the experience. You don't want, you don't want people who only are coming to post on Facebook that they came or to get on the entry list so they can post on Facebook that they were entered and then drop out before they have to hurt. So you still end up with a huge number of people and there's a whole complex process of how we divide them out into different groups because we don't want to have an impact on the wilderness area where the race is held.

24:49So that's really dependent on not on the number of people but the number of laps. So you select people of different levels of ability so that the total number of laps will come out to around 190 laps. And we can nail it pretty well, but then you get down to the people in those groups and you just have to draw. I use the Excel random number generator. Everybody's putting a number this within a group and I'm going to pick so many of them and I just have it pick a number in that sequence and that person gets in. And you think your process is working pretty well? And we get the right number of loops every year, even like this year when we had three finishers, which is really unusual.

25:39We still had just about the same number of total laps that we always have. It was fewer actually total laps than we had last year with zero finishers. And people need letters of recommendation when they apply, is that true? No, they write in essay. Even if someone's not particularly eloquent, if they write their essay, they reveal themselves. They show who they are. You want people that are going to get something out of the experience, not people that will hate it. And not people that really aren't going to immerse themselves. they're just going to dip their toe and then post that they were there and leave.

26:22And you have staff who helped you with all of this? I'm transitioning it over to a guy named Carl Ainiac because I won't be around forever and we just had to, you know, get rid of the non -productive qualities he had like empathy and other things is serve no purpose in a race of this nature. The people who help you, the volunteers, are you managed to pay them or how does that work? How do the economics of this hang together? There are volunteers. The race actually is not cheap to put on and people donate and the biggest part of your donations come from entrance. We have a Barclay fund where we put the donations and use it to pay for the race and it's maintained a positive balance since 1986.

27:14It says something good about the people that run it and then we get some donations from people that just follow it on the internet and think it's important something like this exists. Are you at liberty to say what running one of these might cost? For the individual runner? For the whole aggregate enterprise. All expenses. Oh God. I should be able to pop up a number right off the top of my head. I want to say it costs like $8 or $10 ,000 to put it on. But we do a lot of stuff that would not necessarily be necessary. We bring all the barricades and hang the flags of the countries and states where the runners come from and having all these supplies requires us to rent a truck.

28:08When we first put it on, it was just that there was nothing people showed up and we ran. And you light a cigarette and you blow a conch shell, right? Now, we blow a conch shell to tell them that the start is an hour away. Uncertainty is built into the Barclay everywhere because uncertainty is the most difficult thing for an athlete to deal with. So they don't know where the course exactly goes until the day before the race. They don't know when it's going to start until an hour before it starts. They know it'll start between midnight and noon. And if it doesn't start until after daybreak, there's a lot of sleepless nights because people are afraid they'll miss the cock.

28:50And you can't just Google online like what time and place the next one is right? That's somewhat of a mystery or How does that work? Now we don't tell what day the race will be run except to the people that are entered. And of course nobody knows the starting time. Nobody knows the starting time for next year's race. Right now accept me and Carl. And do you have media that show up? They somehow find out or it truly stays a secret. We kept it a secret up through 2000. And then we had some elements in the park system that didn't want the race to exist. And we realized in the struggle to keep going that we had to exist.

29:30So where we had been turning down media requests, we started accepting them. Strangely enough, especially in ultra -marathons where you would kill to get media exposure, we have to select the media that we let in it barkly because the venue is small and limited. you have to keep the number of people down or there's no place for the runners themselves. And which media do you choose and why? First come first served. So it could be just a freelance photographer or sports illustrated. It was just a matter of which one we heard from first, it seems fair. Putting aside your own events, do you feel that ultra marathons have become too commercial?

30:26There are more commercial than they used to be. You know, everything changes. I think that there is still plenty of places for people to have the same experience. And the personal experience is not driven by the commercialization of it. The commercialization, the slower time limit is a bigger change than commercialization. When I started running altars, the time limits were really pretty strict and everybody who ran was young and in the prime of their career. If you had somebody run into their 40s or even 50, they were this rare exception. And now a lot more people can run for a long time. It extended my career because they didn't have the strict cutoffs they used to have.

31:16Eventually you get old enough you can't make the cutoffs anyway. But all of these are just the things that happens. Things either change or they die. How close do you think we are to the ultimate fundamental limits on human performance in running? I don't know. I think that's what in a global sense, that's what the ultra running is all about. Certainly at the top level is looking for what are the limits we're learning that people can learn and adapt to become better. And then there's this ability of the mind to drive the body behind what seems to be physically possible. Who knows where the real limit lies.