Masaaki Suzuki on Interpreting Bach

0:04Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, bridging the gap between academic ideas and real world problems. Learn more at mercatis .org. For full transcript of every conversation, enhanced with helpful links, visit ConversationsWithTyler .com. Hello everyone and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today I'm here in New York City with Masaki Suzuki. Masaki Suzuki is one of the greatest musical creators and producers of our time. He has recorded the entire set of Bach sacred cantatas, which in my collection amounts to I think 55 compact discs. He has recorded all of the secular cantatas.

0:51These are generally acknowledged to be the most important and best recordings of Bach's cantatas music ever. He is recording a complete, the organ music of Bach, so he also is a world -class organist and is recording the complete harpsichord music of Bach, works that are commonly acknowledged to be in the top tier. So there's simply no one else I know of with this kind of record of production and quality and dedication and inspiration He also has recorded a good deal of Mozart, Handel, many other 18th century composers. He founded the Bach Collegium Japan in 1990 He teaches also as a professor at Yale University and as many other things as well Masaki Suzuki, welcome.

1:39Thank you for your invitation. It's a really great pleasure to come here. I have many questions for you, but to start with Bach, St. John's Passion, 1724. If you had to explain to us in its most fundamental sense, what was new in St. John's Passion that Bach did? What was the nature of that innovation? Well, probably no one expected at the time to have that dramatic passion, because the tradition of the based on the reading the Bible in the liturgy. So it probably, firstly it was only thought as a Bible reading, but not simply reading instead that the citation, so with some tones. So that was developed to the music, passion music.

2:33And by the time of Bach, that was already developed as a kind of oratorio passion. So that was actually the very dramatic experience already. But the still Bach's time on the one week before the Easter, the passion of the Johann Walter was still performed. That means really only if major occurred from the beginning until the end, just to recite all the Bible texts and so on. That was still performed. So the very first passion of Bach in the Lapsis time was a synchon passion, which was a really shocking experience for everyone I thought. And in terms of choral work, what is new in that passion?

3:20Choral work. Yes. Yes, that is a very, well, the structure the consists of the quia and the asi turbas, so the mass of people, the shouting and so on. At the same time, the quia was also supposed to sing the choral. And so the multifunction, the other time choral. And do you think of St John's Passion as a Christian work, or you conduct it as a Lutheran work, or drawing from a particular gospel? How do you think about that theologically? From my point of view, Saint John Passion, we are doing this work as just a simple general sacred music, sacred work. And we are performing this music not in the literature anymore and we are doing it in the concert.

4:15So there's a plenty of way of to accept or receive or appreciate this music. So we are doing simply the musicians to do our best, to do the sound rise and text rise, everything that's as good as possible. So I think the music can work afterwards to the individuals, according to their situation or thoughts. And your own background is Calvinist. Does that in any way shape how you approach the work? Yeah, that's a really good question actually. I was asked very many times why are you not to Lutheran? But there's almost a kind of predestination in the work. Jesus seems to know what's coming. It's good.

5:05More than in other parts of the Bible. Exactly. Yes. So actually I am very grateful to be a because the Calvin was probably the, well I don't know, I'm not a theologian, I'm not a historian, but still I, according to my knowledge, the Calvin was one of the first reformators who acknowledged the value of the activity and culture of this world, not only in that world in heaven. So it is very often said Calvin was not so So, the sympathy for the music or culture was the same, but that is not true. And he has limited the congregational singing only for the sound, but other than the church, as he outside of the church, he has helped quite a much cultural activity, for example, probably show the sound thing or arrangements and so on.

6:01So that was also helpful to inspire the musical activity in this world. So I think in this way we can evaluate the old musical or whatever cultural activity in this world the other kind of under the very big notion as the general grace of the God. So when Bach is in Curtin in what is Ne... what is East Germany? Which was Calvinist at the time, but he's composing mainly secular works. How do you frame that? Why did he do that? Oh, that's that he didn't have a chance to compose any Lutheran content at that time. From one side he must have been very happy to compose the organ works, instrumental works and also secular contentors and so on.

6:47But probably he wished to do more work to the Lutheran world, Lutheran church and so on. That's why he moved to life. So let's go back and just talk about your career, your history a bit. So you're 12 years old and all of a sudden you hear call ricketers recording a box B minor man How did you come upon that and how did you feel at the time? Well, that's really yeah, that's a little stupid, but the well, I was very very excited Not only with that music, but also I Got the quite big strato equipment stereo equipment from my father And then I was very excited to listen to whatever with the headphone.

7:32Headphones were also very fast experience. And anyway, the B -man Amas was the so fantastic, so wonderful, but I didn't understand anything from the text, from the music. The music was much too complicated and the only thing I played quite much trumpet in the brass band. So that's why the trumpet playing by the German trumpeter, the Adolf Scherbaum, that was really fascinating in the B -manamas. So I actually repeatedly listen to the only Gloria. But anyway, that B -manamas is really the wonderful encounter with the Bach's music. And how is your musical ear back then? So the Richter recording, I think of it as a little bit a mix of overblown and stiff, even though it's pretty good, right?

8:22Now, it's not what people would listen to now. Did you have a sense of that back then, or are you discolored? Blown away. No, no, no. Yeah, well, for other interviews, I have listened back to that record recently. That was completely different and well. It is not acceptable at all for my years, because he was a character must have been really wonderful musician. And also, he played Habscooter by himself and by the conducting, for example, for to machine passion without seeing any scores. That's a really amazing thing. But anyway, his way of music making is well completely more than not only the modern, but the kind of the machine alike notes by notes, ta ta ta ta ta ta, ta ta ta ta ta ta, so that's a really not acceptable anymore.

9:14But at that time, that made probably a lot of excitement for the audience, and that's very nice I think. Do you think there are any older recordings of Bach, say of the B minor Mass, or the passions that have held up? Before the Dutch movement for original instruments? Yeah, well, I listened to the, for example, the Mingleberg, since Massive Passion, a couple of times just as an example, that's a very famous example in history. Yeah, well, that is of course completely different, but probably at that time, it was very beautiful, performance, I think. and that's quite a romantic tempo is completely slow.

9:53Well, I have no idea how it was accepted, but actually it did work out at that time. So this kind of sense of value about the performance is changing all the time. So I think we belong to the quite different generation, but at that time it must have been very light for me. and the very stimulating to do the Bach music. And how was it you decided to study early music in the Netherlands? So I said, just you wanted to study music and then you learned of the movement, or you went there because of the movement? No, no, actually in this way, that I was completely fascinated by the organ itself. So that's why I started playing organ and I got the lessons when I was a teenager before the university time.

10:40And then I wanted to study more organ And my first one teacher was Belgian priest actually in Osaka. I told him that I wanted to be a organist. And so they listened to Masaki. That's the only thing I know. No good organ in Japan at all. So that is no good idea to study to organ here in Japan. So I wanted to study composition. So I did study composition and in university, that was very good, the career, very good process to understand the music. And in between, I just happened to meet the hapsco artist called Motoko Nabashima, Japanese the kind of first generation hapsco artist who studied with Gustav Leonhardt in Amsterdam.

11:24And she was really genius person. She spoke more than six languages in Europe and she has spent quite a long time in Europe and she came back to Japan and I met her and I got a lesson from her. And that was really changed my life. And she introduced me to Tom Koppmann, who was the schoolmate of her. So they were together in the Gustav Reinhardt class. So I went to Amsterdam and I went to the Tom Koppmann concert on the day of my arrival, and that was really shocking. Oh, that's really so fresh and so exciting. So I decided to come to the Amsterdam and that was a very very decision I thought. So if you started with the organ, how was it then you came to conducting?

12:16Conducting is actually has been always outside of my idea because when you perform concert as well as whatever Bach's ensemble music. Someone must lead very possible from the Habskoord as Bach did and so on. I did in that way. Gradually I made some ensemble with my brother and my brother's colleague and the stream players and so on. And then we were simply starting to perform the concert as one by one. And for example, I gave them some sign or some signature. So my brother, Chris says, what do I mean? Oh, that is not clear. That is not the one. Which temple do you want? That's something like that.

13:06So only for this kind of discussion, you know, this, I became a conductor. I'm not a conductor in really traditional sense. And where people telling you, well, you can only do one thing. It's organ, hearts, accord, or conducting. you have to choose one or everyone just let you do all of this. Actually, these three are completely, I think that's an integrated, easily integrated. Oh, yeah, yeah. But you do all three, right? Yeah, well, yeah, but the Hubs go to the organ is for example, there's a completely different instrument but still based on the same idea how to make a music and also conducting, quite a conducting especially, you know, there's exactly the same feeling as you play the Fuga on organ.

13:50For example, the theme comes now, now, now, soprano, and something like that. So that's exactly the same. So only thing the choir has a text, so that's much more, you know, better than the older I think. Given how much music you've produced and how consistent the quality is, what is it you think you know about productivity that other people do not? Well, I've not about other people's, but the productivity, well, that is only the Bach's music is so fascinating, so I can't stop working simply. Yeah, well, I never tried to be productive once, just the only I want to pursue the how to improve our performance, how to realize this and that, the music of Bach and not only Bach, that is only music is there, so nothing else.

14:52If you had to explain what is it about the music of Bach that you still do not understand, what would that be? Well, Bach's music has always together with some kind of puzzles and the nigma, so that But you can never get an answer to all the all the, that kind of unknown aspects of the Bach, for example, Kustiafugra, for example, the Art of Fugue, for example, we don't know why he has really written or why, what kind of situation it was not finished. And in the Contrature, for example, there are plenty of really difficult places to understand why he did in this way and so on. And most of the cases we can find some answers from the text, but still it is not so easy to understand everything.

15:46And that was very good. How good a sense of the grasp of Bach's mind do you feel you have? Or is he just a complete mystery deal? Yeah, quite much mysterious feel, I think. So I'm trying to understand and I'm trying to come closer to Bach's sense or Bach's mind, but actually it is very, very difficult. The more you work, the more distant you can get. That is really... Yes, that's true. When you're hiring for the Bach Collegium Japan, of course they have to be wonderful musicians, but given the extreme productivity demands that will be placed on them, what is it you look for in the people you hire?

16:32Well, the most important aspects from musicians is probably how much they can devote to the music. Sometimes how much interest do they have in that music? Well, I do, for example, singers audition very often. And well, of course, I have to judge sometimes, you know, technical aspects of course, how good or the technical. But not only the techniques, the most important thing is probably they are interested and they are how much they can devote themselves to music. That is the most important thing. So I'm very happy to have now our members and orchestra and singers, and at the very beginning they didn't have any idea what if they Bach's concert especially, and then the choral music or the disc and one song or music, how to do that?

17:28But in between during our walking together they have developed a lot, so that was very nice. And they inspired me again, so this kind of vice versa, the inspiration is very, very nice. Do you think Japanese players understand Bach differently? I don't think so, but only think the... basically Japanese people don't have any Christian background or tradition in the country. So sometimes I have to explain what the text says and so on. And also this and that text comes from this and that, the text of the Bible and so on. But this kind of explanation is not possible in Europe, for example, because everything is already taken for granted.

18:14So no one can really explain about Jesus' parables. And so in Japan, I think it is very good to have that kind of a chance, to talk about that things. And also the German text is, of course, basically impossible in Japan to understand immediately. That's why we need translations. traditions, we provide all the time Japanese translations to audience and also for the orchestra people, all the musicians. But this kind of a translation work is a part of very important interpretation work because we read the Bible, for example, the only through the translations. No one in this world raised the original language in all testament, new testament.

19:02So actually, you know that to make this kind of translations, you know, we have to think on that, consider what it really means and so on all the time. So I try to make quite some translations of Bach's counter to some 20, 30 counter to I have translated myself, but it's a very time consuming. That's why I gave up in the recent, but we have very good colleagues to make good translations. With your Japanese background, do you think you approach Christianity differently? I think so quite different from any other, well actually the each of the countries have different traditional approach to Christianity or whatever religion I think.

19:51But in Japan it's quite different from Korea, for example. In Korea, there are a lot of questions. It is said that 40 or 50 % of the population of the Christian, but in Japan, it's always said that the only 1 % of something. But in spite of that, the Christian culture is very well known in Japan. So everyone knows what Christmas is and even Easter they did quite known nowadays, but there is not so many Christians in Japan. I thought formally that that is a big negative aspect, but I think that is the, it is not possible really to count who is a Christian, who is not Christian. And when we perform the St.

20:37Matthew Passion regularly on the Holy Week, and every year with since 20 years we are doing, now we have regularly three performance in Holy Week in the same venue. So, something like 5 ,000 -6 ,000 people are coming for that performance. And that is an amazing thing in comparison with the number of the Christianity in Japan. So actually, I think that what many people can appreciate of that kind of message from the Bible as well, not only the Bach's music, but from the Bible. So that is my hope. Do you ever think back on what is called the Christian Century in Japan, which ends I think in 1639, when a lot of Japanese convert Christianity fairly rapidly, But then Christianity is suppressed.

21:31Is there some alternate history where Japan becomes more or less a Christian country? Or could that never have happened? No, that has never happened. That is a completely stopped, I think, that religion wise. But it is very interesting that there are quite many evidence that before the 1639, quite many churches were built by the missionaries and from Europe. And also in Auslitzje, for example, where the Older Nogun and the Hathab based the very close to Kyoto, there were quite many churches and also quite some organs at that time. And also, boys, missionaries were sent to eyes, at least from Japan to the Pope in Rome.

22:10And in between, a tatami took a couple of years to reach the Europe. And in between, some of them practiced organ on the ship. And then when they arrived at the Avera in Portugal, one of them could play organ immediately and able one was astonished. But in this kind of connection was completely stopped afterwards. That was very pity. And Christianity was actually left over only as the hidden Christian. So that was a very interesting history. but the probably it is not possible to to to call them Christianity anymore of that but that is a kind of mix up with Buddhism. So the called recent repast of why the musicologist Mr.

23:02Minagawa, that's Minagawa does, who has researched about Dotti history and found out a very interesting thing. Like for example, there are still hidden Christians in Japan in Kyushu area. And I heard that they used to have the funeral ceremony combined with Buddhism and Christianity. So, the quite big houses or temple buildings and in the front side, they do the funeral ceremony according to the Buddhism Buddhist way. And then in between, the priests are supposed to walk around the back to the building and then the while walking they are always murmuring this is not true, this is not true, this is not true and then come back to the Buddhism again, something like that.

23:52So this is really interesting ceremony so there's a kind of mixture with the Christian. So this kind of hidden Christianity or the Christian people had very, very difficult and miserable or history because they were completely depressed and also the torture of many people. But still they have survived in a way. But not really anymore as a Christian, the proper Christian. Well I don't know exactly where I can't I can't tell too much about that but because I don't know exactly but the anyway that's a hidden Christianity is still there. That's very interesting. And you're from Kobe, right? That was originally a Christian center along with Nagasaki.

24:36Exactly. Because they were poor cities, is that why? Yeah. That is the Kobe zone of the most important. After the reopening of the Japan, so 1868, there are probably two Kobe and the Yokohama and even Sendai, the port places, you know, this is the very important to accept the any kind of culture from outside but the Christianity came in and for example there is the oldest Protestant church is in in Yokohama so that is that is the end of 19th century this is really interesting history how do Japanese audiences for classical music say in Tokyo differ from New York audiences? Well, probably a little different American audience are more friendly and more easier to be excited by the performance and as if they look like more inspired directly from the music and also musicians.

25:47And in Japan, Japanese audience say, they sometimes they know very well about the repatriate and very cooperative, but at the same time, not so excited immediately. Probably, the inside is very excited, but we Japanese people don't express directly from inside to outside. We were all told in the school, for example, That is a rule. That is not the intellectual demeanor. Something like that. What do you think of the hypothesis that Japanese audiences? They have a special interest in iconic works, such as Beethoven's Ninth. And there's an insistence that they hear the best or experience the best and single out very particular things.

26:33Do you think that's true? Yeah, Beethoven is a very special being, especially in December. And so they are more than 100 performances in between nine, only in this symbol. In the chorus at the end has special meaning. From Japanese people, you think chorus, the chorus, the lyrics to the chorus ending of the ninth. Yeah, that's of course that is very special meaning. Not only for Japan, but I think that's a musical at the very big events. And in Japan, there are quite some of the projects who gather the people more than 10 ,000 people to sing out. Today, the bit of a nine at the end. So that is quite a beloved event.

27:21But that is a normal musical event. I don't think so. Why do you think Bach's larger vocal works were neglected for as long as they were until Mendelssohn, Right in the 1820s. They're a bit forgotten. The keyboard music is not forgotten. What happened there? Well, I don't know there are a couple of different aspects. For example, passion music of Bach, the St. Masha, or St. John, you need definitely a continual playing for example, but that idea was already distinct, already completely extinct by the time of Mendelssohn. So Mendelssohn has reformed, or the harmonization for the continuo part. He has performed some handtats as well, but he always provided the parts for the brass section or the wind section to fulfill the harmonization on the continuo.

28:19So that the impoveredative parts of the contino could not understood anymore by the time of Mendelssohn. And also it was much easier for them to understand the passion music just as the story telling. So that Mendelssohn has performed the centimusher passion only mainly the older relatives. So he avoided for his first performance. He avoided the nearly old areas even Ausliebe, that he didn't perform the first time. And his intention was to follow the story as directly as possible. So in that way probably it was thought just like the opera production. So the Mendelssohn was indeed that That is a revival of the Saint Magi Passion, but actually that performance is completely different what we are now doing.

29:15How many times do you think Bach heard his own larger scale master works? Saint Matthew's Passion be minor mass? No, there is no evidence that he has any performance, be minor mass. But he never heard it. He never heard it. Only in his mind. And so much passion that he has performed at least the three times, I think. The John is full times, oh five, I'm not sure. But anyway, there's only a couple of times he has really hard and performed his own master works. Now your music is largely online, not all of our listeners are experts in the music of Bach. But if you had to recommend two or three cantatas that you've conducted a place for them to start where would you send them?

30:04That is very difficult one of the most difficult questions Well, that depends on the situation what you you have the experience in the past in experience and yeah, of course But the one of the my favorite contater is for example, ah let me let me see

30:27That's a good one, very good one, of course. And Festerberg, 80. It's true in your card? Well, I don't recommend that as for the first beginner, because that is too complicated. Well, for example, count the number 8, Leapster Jesu, that is a really wonderful music, so you can really use it as a BGM background music as well. And that is really comfortable to listen. And overall the Contata one, oh two, this the hair, dine, organs, and dine, glauvens, that is one, oh two, is the, that's a very interesting structure. The wire has a two double figure. And that is a really interesting structure. And also the area was very dramatic.

31:18So, well, otherwise, playing to your big stuff. In the world today, how many top -tier organs are there for playing the music of Bach, where you can really do it justice? You said there were no good organs in Japan, or you were told this. A datam, yes, yes. How many organs of the highest quality are there in the whole world for you to play Bach? Yeah, how many? That's a really difficult question, but it totally depends on what you think beautiful or what you feel good. Because I prefer personally the historical organs, the original organs like in North and Germany or France or whatever. And well, my really favorite organ in the world is the Chroningen, that's the Matini Kerk, that's built by the Hongkha Sparer Shunitka.

32:15And where is that exactly? The Chroningen is in the north part of the organ. Oh, Groningen, yes, Groningen, yes. That is really wonderfully restored. So that quite much depends on how it's restored as well. Because the organ is had a lot of very long history. So in between, for example, in the 19th century, the all over the historical organs were once renovated according to the musical taste of that time. So nearly all the organs were once romanticized, the romantic way, just changed. So in 20th century most of the organs were re -reinnovated to bring them back to the original situation or 18th century or 17th century.