Noam Dworman on Stand-Up Comedy and Staying Open-Minded

27:01I think there's a lot of depression, there's a lot of psychotropic drugs, there's a lot of mood drugs being taken by comedians, but if you read the paper, this is common throughout American culture, so I don't know if it's more, or they're just again more open about it, because comedians will tell you, I'm taking this, I'm taking that. I would have to say they're not less happy because they love their work and they can't wait to go to work. And like my father used to tell me, most people live their whole lives for the weekend. They can't stand going to work and those people I have trouble believing are happier than comedians.

27:39Because anybody and I have a job similar to this where my whole profession is on my own terms. If I'm interested in computers, I can make that work for my profession. If I've mused it, whatever it was I wanted to do. This is happiness, you know. So unless they are, you know, chemically depressed people, as some people are, I think comedians are probably happier than most people. If there's a truly beautiful woman, can she do stand -up comedy or the looks unobstacle? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Whitney Cummings is very, very funny. I think she's beautiful. She was a model. I know what you're saying, but I don't think it's an obstacle.

28:19I don't think it would be an obstacle. Yes, it's true. There haven't been that many truly beautiful women doing stand -up comedy. I would not say that that's the reason. Does the comedy have to change? It might, you know, I think so much of this defies these rules of thumb. And I think that when somebody comes along who has something original about them, something about their take on things, something about the way they speak, whatever it is. And it's real, they will become big. Regardless of what it is. Again, it's like, you know, somebody with a super musical talent, like Django Reinhardt, they're missing fingers.

29:03They figure out how to play with their toes. When you have real talent, you will Make it the problem is always that that's the the top 5 % whatever you want to say and then there is the more mediocre category of people who are successful in stand -up comedy and In that group then yeah, then you can Maybe attribute these kind of things that you're talking about but among the people with super talent I don't think it matters what they look like. I don't think any of these things hold them back And if you do stand up comedy for decades, at a high level, but not the Louis C. K. Chris Rock level, but you're successful You know you appear in your club all the time.

29:39How does that change a person? But not so famous that everyone on the street knows who they are How does doing stand up comedy change a person for 25 years? Yeah. Well it First of all, it makes it harder for them to socialize like I hear the story all about comedians when they go like Thanksgiving dinner with their family and all of a sudden the entire place gets silent like that He just say, because you get used to being in an atmosphere where you could say whatever you want. I think probably, because I know this in my life, and again, getting used to essentially being your own boss, you get used to that.

30:13And then it becomes very, very hard to ever consider going back into kind of like the structured life that most people expect is going to be their lives from the time they're in school, you know, nine to five, whatever it is. So at some point, I think if you do it for too long, you would probably kill yourself rather than go back. I've had that thought to myself, like, if I had to go back to like, I never practiced a lot, but if I had to take a job as a lawyer, and I'm not just saying this would be dramatic, I think I might kill myself. I can't even imagine at my age having to start going to work at nine o 'clock, having a boss, having to answer for mistakes that I made, having the pressure of having to get it right, otherwise somebody's life is impacted.

30:54I just got too used to being able to do what I want when I want to do. Committees have to get gigs, but essentially they can do what they want when they want to do it. They don't have to get up in the morning. I think at some point you just come so used to that there's no going back. I've known a few people who, casually, they're not comics, but they do improv comedy at local clubs a few times. They think this will help them master social situations or give talks. Is that naive or is there actually some benefit to trying that? John Putt -Harritz, the commentary, but he apparently took improv classes for that reason.

31:29And I know that public speaking is apparently the number one phobia. I've read that. So I suppose getting used to being in front of an audience in some way would be helpful. But I think the law of diminishing returns probably kicks in pretty quick. It's probably something good to do a little bit. I don't think it's going to help you much to do it for a long time. But I don't know. I don't know. If there's a young comedian appearing at Comedy Seller for the first time, you can see they're very nervous. You say anything. Can you help them? What do you do? What I try to do is you know, make them put the mid -eas if I can.

32:05And you know, they're sometimes watching you when you audition them. My book or SD does this way more often. And we speak about it. We try to laugh, try not to let them look at and see a stone face, try in some way. Now I know this, you know, Sometimes it's common that the people auditioning people, I don't know if it's a power trip or whatever it is, they don't do that. They'll purposely not show any emotion to the person auditioning, which I think is counterproductive because you're trying to find out how good they are. So why would you not want to do as much as you can to bring the best out of them?

32:39So I try to bring the best out of people as much as I can. This was the same thing when I was auditioning musicians, but it's hard because when they're nervous, you know, they're really nervous. It's hard and just telling them don't be nervous is counterproductive. I don't know if it's counterproductive I don't think it works like I was very nervous to do this interview You could say anything you want to me. We got when you're not the other, you know, and I didn't say anything Right, we just talked about other stuff. It wouldn't talk to about the beach boys. Yeah, it's taking my mind off it Yeah How is New York City stand -up comedy different from LA comedy?

33:10Well, they say you know, I don't know I'm repeating only stuff I've heard that New York stand -up comedy is a more battle -tested, is quicker and funnier and more highly regarded. That's within the stand -up community. I would also say that there's a lot more celebrities at the LA clubs, people like Joe Rogan and as opposed to here where they're dropping, they're on the lineups there. So it's much less stage time for an up -and -coming comic in LA. That's what I'm told. part of the reason I was nervous about this interview is because I don't think anybody realizes how uninformed I am in a certain way about anything that happens outside my little kingdom here, you know, or that sounds arrogant, but my little environment.

33:58And I'm focused on everything that happens around me and a huge amount of that has nothing to do with comedy. It's about customers being happy and people being friendly and the homeless being made right and whatever it is. So I don't know that much about LA comedy. How does Las Vegas comedy fit into the picture? And there you have a club, right? Yeah. So I mean, Vegas audiences are, you know, you'll have more conservatives, more Trump supporters. It's riskier to have a two political comic there who will start offending the Trump supporters and whatever it is. But other than that, I've found to my surprise, or not to my surprise, but to the surprise of other people, that audiences are the same.

34:43That the people who are funny are funny and vague is just like they are in New York. Hacks will do a little bit better in Vegas than they will in New York because more people in New York realize that they're hearing something that's not original. But funny is funny and like people say maybe you can't somebody's sent somebody out to Jewie or to whatever you know that no doesn't matter at all How important is the seating arrangement for a good comedy show? You think long and hard how close together should the seats be how far away looking down looking up? What's the deal the most important thing is that everybody should be a little bit closer than they want to be the claustrophobia of the room I think is extremely important.

35:25It is not good to have people spread out We do get complaints from time to time about people being that the seats were too tight, and it's the one complaint I will not address in terms of making changes in the room, because I know that it helps. And why does claustrophobia make the comics funnier? It's just the intenseness, I guess the synchronization is stronger, it's in the audience, sir. Definitely the laughs are louder, first of all. You are enjoying it with your friends in a closer physical way or there's just an intense this to it. I mean, my answer may not be very eloquent, but obviously anybody can just picture as you spread people out, you can just intuitively understand, well, that's just not going to work.

36:08You know, you have to be close together. Louis CK once said that in the 1990s, the comedy seller often was empty and there was hardly any audience. Why was that? What happened? Oh boy, was it? So, first of all, week nights at comedy clubs in general were basically empty. Comedy was not the popular thing that it is today. But the comedy seller was even then we were the newcomer and the low club on the totem pole, the improv, the catcherizing star, Caroline's. These were the go -to clubs. And it was so slow that in my father used to have the waitresses take off their aprons and all sit in the room pretend to be customers so that if somebody would come to the door, they wouldn't think they were the only customer.

36:57You know, we went through all sorts of things to try to to seed the room. The weekends were always busy because people want to go out on the weekends. But yeah, it was, it was very tough. And actually those were good old days in a way because the comedians had much less pressure on them in those days. So they would take chances. They would be hilarious improvised things. I just sent a whole wall full of VHS tapes to a digitizing place in Boston. They actually came to pick it up It's gonna cost a lot of money and I'll have a lot of those of that period on video and you own the IP No, I don't no down to the comedians on okay Yeah, yeah, but I will then share it with them and to the extent that they want to you know have it released We're given to a museum in Sundays, but there will be clips there of people like Louis CK performing to like five people.

37:53And it'll be a different aspect of Louis CK than anybody's ever seen. And it's fascinating, like seeing the Beatles and, you know, the cavern club or something. So if you were not the top club back then, and please feel free to be your modest, and you are the top club right now, what is it that comedy seller did in the meantime to get you to be the top club? Yeah, that's a good question. and I don't, I mean, what I think it is, is that we were the most dedicated, I say this, yeah, it's uncomfortable for me to talk this way, but this is what I believe. We were completely dedicated, always, always, always, to doing things the right way in terms of having the best comedians and being and treating the customers the way we want to be treated ourselves.

38:46And this was like to this day it's an obsession with me. It's harder and harder to keep that mentality as we're so busy among the staff will become complacent whatever it is. I regard this as a big challenge and a very important challenge that I have to overcome. But it was the way we treated the comedians. My grandmother was a very warm host. My father was an extremely warm host. He always... And they ran the club before you did, right? Not my grandmother, but just a just like a dormant family kind of tradition. My father knew how to take care of people, treat them nicely. He was a performer himself.

39:27He understood the stage from a performer's point of view. So I'll give you a perfect example. To this day, every comedy club has a check spot, which is during the last comedians, they give out the check. Now, the comedians hate this because how can you pay attention to the comic while you're figuring out your check? And from day one, my faucet, we're never going to have a check spot. I don't care what it takes. I don't care if it takes longer to turn over the room. I don't care if we lose a show. We're not going to have a performer having to compete with paying a check, especially if he's talking like music is bad enough.

40:02So this was something he dug in on. And to this day, our competitors have check spots, even their last shows where there is no time constraint. Why I cannot account for that. And from that, you can extrapolate many things that they're probably doing wrong because they don't have their priority straight. Why don't you charge a higher price for Saturday nights? More people want to go, right? Dude, I just found out today that one of our, one of the other clubs is charging $38, New York comedy club is from $38 plus a $5 ticket fee, which is just, you know, why would there be a ticket fee? It's just a rip off.

40:35And then $18 minimum. You're talking about almost twice as expensive as we are. I just seems too much to me. Doesn't seem too much. Who wants to pay that much money? It sounds like a bargain compared to a lot of alternatives. Try going to see the next. Now, that's comedy of its own sort, but I don't know. I have to take a look at raising my prices. I had no idea. I didn't mention this to you, right? You didn't know I just saw this today. I didn't know this. $38. And also I went to a piano bar called The Nines. A drink is $26. And our cover charge on a Saturday night is $26. So maybe I'm out of touch and I do have to raise the prices in some way, but it's always better to be full.

41:14It's always better for people to think that they got their money's worth. The longevity can't be measured for that kind of philosophy. And you only know you've blown it when it's too late. You only know your raise your prices when it's too late. What I do keep track of in terms of metrics for my business is not how much money we take in It's how many people we turn away every week Because I know if I see that number dropping that's when I have a you know now I have to react to that So this is all kind of related to each other now. We have to use your gatekeeper for comedy talent. What makes her so good at that job?

41:53And we said my father's genius to hire a booker who didn't speak English. Listen, she gets mad when I say this, but I'm going to be very honest. Knowing who the good comics are is not the challenge. It is obvious to anybody who the good comics are. You could not speak the language. Be in the room and know who the funny comics are. You can hear the laughter you see the audience. However, she is tremendously good at other things. She is a Jewish mother. She takes care of them. And I know you can make me cry if I tell you. She's extremely loyal. This woman bleeds comedy -seller blue. More than me, she worries about the club.

42:36More than me. She broke her rib a few weeks ago. In terrible pain. I said, SD, how are you doing? She was on terrible pain. I'm saying, that's what you need to stay home. She goes, stay home as long as you need. She goes, I'm at work. I'll say, what are you doing? It works. She knows how she knows she's going to get paid. This is a dedication. You cannot find this anywhere and people see that in her and they respond to it. I mean the most famous people in the world, Judd Apatow, John Mayer, they're texting with SD. They go out to dinner with SD. They adore her. And that is the magic that she brings to it.

43:13How is it that you notice when the level... Sure, sure, please. When Trump used to talk about the deep state, it always rang true to me because every boss has a deep state in his business because anybody, so friends, I have a general manager. I'm not talking about my general manager. And a customer's complaining. Now, the general manager doesn't want to let me know about the customer complaint because in some way this reflects on her management of the place. So there's immediately the incentives are all bad. That's why it's always better if you're a customer to ask for the owner. Because the owner is the only one who really, really cares.

43:47So it has no SD is completely loyal. There is zero deep state with SD. And this as a boss is something you may never have. And when you do have it, it's priceless. I cannot tell you the sense of ease I have that I can speak with her totally candidly, totally frankly about any comedian about anything in the world and I know it stays between us. She'll never, ever let it on. It's an amazing thing. How is it that you notice when the level of the light in the club is dimmed ever so slightly? I just notice. My father had it. I have it. I can walk into a room and I notice it immediately. People I've trained where they're everyday don't notice.

44:32I'm like, don't you see that? Oh yeah, you're right boss. I didn't see that. This is just, it's like, like, you know, it's a talent. I'll cop to it as a talent. What's the craziest government regulation? Comedy seller has to follow. Well, the dumbest thing, it's not huge to me, is that when they raise the minimum wage, they raise it for tipped employees rather than the people who are working hard in the kitchen, let's say. Now our servers, I think finally caught up with it. everybody, our servers make as a way to earn job quite a bit of money, you know, some of them can make $100 ,000 a year. They would pay me to work here.

45:14I'm not suggesting they do it. Regulations really didn't take care of for a while. And I said, I think the minimum wage may have caught up now. They did not take care of the people who are really laboring hard at low wages. I thought that was a tremendous mistake. The sum total of the regulations is crazy. It's it's death by a thousand cuts. So then we Wanted to move a wall downstairs to expand the kitchen by I don't know seven feet This was something we could have done without even closing In order to comply with the law we were closed for like six or seven months The landmark permission is one thing after another after another after another we can't put in a bathroom Because then we'd have to renovate the bathrooms downstairs in a room for there's so many things We're very, very fortunate because we're established and we're successful, but you wonder how it is that a new business can overcome these costs.

46:10My father started his first place. He was a cab driver. The notion that a cab driver could aspire to opening a restaurant in the village. Now it's impossible. You couldn't do it. Come and use, Seth. I should ask you for your 9 -11 story. Oh my God. He gave me help. I spied on you. And he really, of course he did. All right, well, this is not a flattering story at all. I don't know that. I guess I will. And I try to do it short. So, you know, when I was younger, not anymore, listen, I was a musician. I'm not proud of it, but I was, I, I, I, I, I, I, I was not faithful to girlfriends, whatever. I'm just copying to it.

46:50I can't believe, I can't believe. Cause I texted Coleman today, like, he's like, it'll be fine. Don't worry about it. And then the only bad question was from him. So I had decided that the only way you could have a fair, I wasn't married, God forbid, was that you and the woman had to be the only two people who know about it. So I had this girlfriend, I said, we're going to go to Washington, DC. And I didn't tell anybody. And I can't believe you're doing this. And I was at a hotel and Myself on his ringing and ringing and ringing and ringing and I don't want to answer it And finally I answer it and if someone working in the office calling on behalf of my father Where are you?

47:37Where are your fathers go? I said I'm I'm in DC I'm nice book to my father's wife. I'm in DC and They're like don't you understand what's happened? I had no idea was it was and I turned on a TV So I turned on the TV. It was 9 -11. The World Trade Center is full. That's what I'm in DC. That's all I say. So then my girlfriend, now my wife, my wife knows the story. Her mother, I'm really trying to condense the story, shows up to the olive tree. And is the attached restaurant for the listeners who are now looking for her daughter who and she sees my stepmother and she says, Have you seen Juanita and Alpha?

48:18My son was just, it's okay, they're in DC. And my wife's mother says, she's not in DC. I just saw her two hours ago and then it dawned. So I got busted on 9 -11. And I just remember, you couldn't get back in the Manhattan and it was burned out. I was like, I hope it burns and burns and it burned. I just kept putting it off and putting it off. It was the most horrible thing. But I will tell you an interesting aspect of that. So in this story, we'd written up in a book, by the way, if we wanted to get the long version of it, when we went out into DC that day, there was nobody at the White House.

48:55Sure. And we began to walk down the path, realizing we could walk into the building, like January 6, I think, we're right in the gap. And then I got scared. I say, you know what, this is probably not something we should do. and I chickened out and I went the other way. And before a cell phone had cameras, but it was like I am legend or something. It was a most amazing thing I've ever seen. It just happened to be there and I couldn't capture it, but deserted. Just like you could just walk right into the government buildings. It's crazy. Anyway. Is there an alternate universe where you become a professional musician, a guitarist?

49:34Yes, there is. I would say that, I mean, I was a very good musician in high school, I was hired as an accompanist for a classical out player and I played Carnegie Hall and a number of important of those types of rooms. I was recommended to study with Segovia. I was considered to be a a loot player. A loot player? No, I would. Oude. Oude. Oude. Oude. Yeah. Which is, you know, a lot oot is oots. Yes. Yes. The oot was a four -winter of the loot. And then I had a whole career playing music. I was pretty successful at it. And I was good, not not a genius musically. Like I play with some people who were who I could never play like they can play.

50:16But I was always the leader. I always became the leader in any situation, even with musicians who were better than me in certain ways. It was something about it's related to being known when the lights are up and down. There was something about my sensibility musically. I will say this about myself, which was unique to me and very good. And that's why to this day, like I still play with the very, very best musicians in the world will come down and hang out in the olive tree. And you're playing electric guitar then. Now I play like a nylon electric guitar. Yeah. But as a band leader more than anything else, that was really something that I was, I was just naturally good at.

50:55The old Bert Bakker Act song, raindrops keep falling on my head. What are the chords? Oh, I know the C, C, major sevens. He said, I can tell you all the credit for like all the songs by anyone. Coleman says you can not, not Coleman. No, not not all the songs not by anyone. I'm pretty good at it. I don't have perfect pitch. People with perfect pitch are always better at it. I'm not as good as this guy Nick Castellino plays with me. He will have a higher batting average. I'm not a genius. I'm not, but I'm very good. But you know, a lot of people like you hear all Beatle record, Paul McCartney's making mistakes.

51:30You know, music has so many different aspects that go into it in terms of what it means to be a great musician. There's artistic aspects to it. There's strategic aspects to it. There's sensitivity aspects to it. There's all sorts of things. Beach boys, I get around. What makes it a great song? Well, it's just, first of all, that introduction. It's so fresh. The barbershop kind of sound with this rock music. I mean, as a kid, I can remember vividly the first time I heard it, I'd never heard anything like it. That's always impressive to me when something comes out of nowhere and you can't even trace it as a progression of what came before it.

52:09That's what those beach boys songs were like to me. That's like the first time I heard, I wanna hold your hand, these kind of things. I'm not exactly unique. The first time I heard Teen Spirit and Nirvana's song. Right. There's just something about and again, I'm saying this, but everybody says that, right? First time I heard strawberry fields forever. Maybe I was 10, I couldn't believe it. Yeah. So I get around, has that. Now I get around is very sophisticated harmonically. It's got a key change and it goes down as step afterwards and he comes, he finishes. I think he finishes where he started.

52:41I mean, you can't say enough about Brian Wilson, right? This guy's a real genius. who's the most underrated guitarist in your view. The guitar players who are not fancy, like Paul McCartney, whose touch is magically, you can tell it's him immediately. Like Paul Simon, James Taylor gets more credit, but is also not understood to be the genius that he is because he basically invented an entire style. Nobody plays like him, nobody sounds like him, and nobody Nobody played like that before him. Willie Nelson's soloing. I know that people like Miles Davis, they get it because it's so simple, it's all phrasing.

53:22It's something that anybody would think they could do but they can't quite do it like him. It's kind of like the now it's like Sinatra singing. Nobody gets that but yet everybody can't believe how good he is but he's not singing like Elephant's Gerald. He's not singing like Tony Bennett. It's almost approachable. you'd think you could almost sing like Sinatra, but you can't. The guitar players like that. I've listed some of them. Those are the people I really admire. I really don't, I never did enjoy the fancy guitar players like the guitar gods because that's not really my approach to music. Now, more song oriented.

53:59I like the songs. I like the, I even like the souls that are not necessarily improvised. The fact that you mastered the Ud, which is unusual, right? How is that that shaped your understanding of rock and roll and popular music. What is it that you see differently?

54:16Well, I'll broaden out that answer, because I don't think I mastered the word. I can play it. But you played it, yeah. That I was very, very lucky. I wish my father alive for you to meet him. I had very, very broad influences in my home and a total lack of snobbery about anything. And actually, this is why I take to you in a way. I think you have that too. So anything that was considered to be great within its culture, the greatest Arabic music, the great whatever it was, it was assumed that it was upon me to learn why it was great. And then, and you can do that, you like, you bury yourself in it, you'll always have an accent at it in some way, but at some point you get used to it, and then you begin to be able to discern the good from the bad and then somehow that becomes part of your vocabulary and how you play and that just happens.

55:14You can't really plan that. So in some way, having all these influences made me unique in certain ways in musician, but unique in just in everything that I do, I like to think because I don't know, I try to be very, very open -minded. I hope the answer meander's a little bit, but I do think these things are connected. Like it's an idea that's not limited to music. It's just an approach to the world. And you're the best example I know of this. Thank you. The Greenwich Village live music scene. Does that have a future? Aren't the rents too high? Too many tourists come here? Will it all just become stupid?

55:50I think it's done. When I started a music club in 88, everybody had live music. I mean, there was live music everywhere, not just some bleaker street, but throughout the city. few things happen at the same time. First of all, fewer and fewer people play the kind of music which is practical for live venues. Much more electronic and hip hop and whatever it is. Number one, number two, Rentscott Hire and Landlords don't want noise. And neighbors don't want noise and it's almost impossible to control the noise. And DJs became super popular on their own and DJs are way cheaper and more predictable than what they're going to do.

56:34You know, you hire some live band. You don't know if they're what they're going to play or if they'll show up. There's so many reasons that like me. When I was a kid, McDougal Street was so, no, this was during the folk rock era when the love and spoonfuls around the corner and Dylan was, McDougal Street was so busy. you couldn't even walk down the street. The cars had to go, you know, like at a tiny pace, just it was a flood of people. You can see this a little bit in the movie, the president's analyst. I don't know if you're a solid. No. Lee Marley, this clips to the Village in those days. So it's, and then it just has decayed ever since that I think live music, I don't think it's coming back.

57:11Anywhere in New York. I don't think so. I mean, I shouldn't say it never, but, I mean, like my Monday night live music that I do with Coleman and Ray. It's pretty popular, but it's very small. And I couldn't even imagine succeeding in a live music club now. You can do it with famous acts, but the kind of non -famous live music club, no. And they asked partly why comedy's gotten busier, two comedy in certain ways replaced music as a thing people go to do. Final question, what will you do next? Well, we just closed on the biggest thing I've ever done, which is a new building on Third Street, was the former McDonald's and I want to open a room that hopefully be the flagship room to be a very, very intimate 200 seat theater -ish kind of place with a mezzanine.

58:02I'm doing that also largely because I have kids and I want them to I want to have enough that they don't have to fight over it. I've seen so many families torn apart fighting over estates and things like that. I'm trying to keep having fun. Again, one of the things I admire about you and I think as I get to know you and I'm more comfortable speaking with you, but I think that we're similar only in a sense that I think you're trying to live life on your own terms and do exactly what you wanna do and enjoy exactly what you wanna do when you wanna do it. And that has really been the joy of my life so far.

58:36And that's what I'm trying to do. Now I have kids, that's a huge joy in my life. So I don't know exactly what I'll do next after that. It'll be whatever I wanna do that I'm interested in at the time to enjoy myself. That's really...ways been all along. No. Dwarmen of Comedy Cellar, thank you very much. Thank you Tyler. Thank you very much.

59:18Until next time, please keep listening and learning.