Reid Hoffman on the Possibilities of AI

26:41Fascinating. Some people say, it can shine. I don't think it's all of these. I think I said Vickinshtine earlier, because in Firestide chatbots, I brought in Vickinshtine and language games. Perth maybe, who else? Who else? Perth is good. Now, I happen to have a red Vickinshtine at Oxford, so I can comment on some depth, but the question about language and language games and forms of life and how these large language models might mirror human forms of life because they're trained on human language is super interesting questions. like Vickinshine, other good language philosophers, I think are interesting.

27:19That doesn't doesn't mean philosophy of language philosophers, all kind of analytic philosophy, but the Gareth Evans kind of theories of reference as applied to how you're thinking about this kind of stuff is super interesting. Christopher Peacock's concept work is I think interesting. Anyway, so So there's some, there's a whole range and then also the philosophy, like all the neuroscience stuff, you know, applied in with the large language models, I think is very interesting as well. And what in science fiction do you feel as risen the most in status for you? Oh, for me, not in the world. We don't know yet.

27:57Yes, we don't know yet. You think, oh, this was really important, you know, Werner, Vinger. Well, this is going to be seen maybe like a strange answer to you, but I've been rereading David Brin's Uplift series. Yes. Very carefully. Because the theory of how should we create other kinds of intelligences and what should that theory be and what should be our shepherding and governance function and symbiosis is a question that we have to think about over time. And he kind of went straight at this in a biological sense rather than that. That's the same thing, just difference, up straight, with the uplift series.

28:33So I've recently read the entire uplift series. When you can talk to a dolphin, what will you want to ask it? What do you... What are... Like almost like one of the things I love is these words that are in some languages and not others. You know, whether it's like Komorebi or Ubuntu or you know like all these other things because it's these kind of different lenses of human experiences. It would almost be like what are the words in dolphin that aren't in our language and can you try to through through an ocean darkly, try to share what it is that concept that you're gesturing at to learn it. That would be the question I would most be interested in answering.

29:13And by the way, I'm funding a thing called the ERCC's project, which is an early effort to try to get at this, which will be the easiest animal for us to learn how to talk to in essence. It will be dolphins, chimpanzees, chimps, chimps. Yeah. We share not just a bunch of biology, but kind of a a world that we're navigating. But we sort of talk to them already. Exactly. In the realist. That's what dolphins were, or what are you saying? But you could actually tape the dolphins, apply an LLM to it. That should work. Well, that's what Earth's BC's project is working on. And what do you think that cost?

29:48We don't know. I mean, we're just trying to get the taping and we're trying to see. What have you learned about friendship from working with LLMs? I would say I haven't learned anything particular about friendship yet, although the way that I got to impromptu was, as you know, I've been working for decades on one or more books about friendship. And so I started using GPD 4 as a personal assistant for research assistant on this, which is I think one good thing that everyone should use these things on, and in depth of doing it. And so I started asking questions that I've always been wanting to do research on, like, how would you compare and contrast Chinese conception of friendship with a Western conception of friendship?

30:27And that question wasn't very good, but the question on MENCHIS and give me some understanding of MENCHIS or Lao Tzu. And their application's a theory of friendship was more interesting. It's kind of the prompt directing. I actually preferred directing versus engineering as a thing, but the prompt directing is getting good research assistants. What have you most learned about yourself working with LLMs? Well, I think this is one of the things we always learn. Like, for example, you know, five, ten years ago, we were beating the drum on the touring test, and now we sailed past the touring test, and almost no one's really talked about it.

31:02And we learned like, oh, actually, in fact, what we're unique is not the touring test, it's these other things. And so what I would say is, and I'm interested in creating pie and inflection among others, but I'm interested in creating AIs that ask good questions, but I'd say currently anybody What he was good at asking questions is much better than GPD 4. Like GPD 4's generation of questions is not that good. I suspect you tried to generate questions. No, I didn't. Absolutely you did not. Right. But for most guests I do. Yes. But the GPD 4 suggestions are kind of vanilla. They're just not that interesting.

31:36It's like, ask Tyler about economics and what's going to happen in a macroeconomics in the next decade. Not an interesting question. The bit can shine question. That's an interesting question. You know, like, and so that, I don't think there's anything structurally, it doesn't, but like, I tried to get it to generate a whole bunch of questions and complete failure. But I think you get better questions from it. If you don't ask it, what should I ask Tyler? What should I ask Reed? If you come up with, what's the weirdest question you can imagine concerning both science fiction novels and LLMs? I think you'll get a better question.

32:11Well, we'll try it. My guess is it still won't be as interesting as the question you or I could generate in a minute or two. on the same prompt. How will human aspiration change due to LLMs? Hopefully get greatly amplified. That's everything that I'm trying to, like our aspirations should be very ambitious. And I think LLMs and AI should, should if anything, increase them. One thing I've learned is I never get sick of watching the magic. At first I thought, well, for how long will I still get kicks from this? But it's still running, right? It hasn't as some toded for me. Yes, exactly. But what will happen to social trust as a result of LLMs?

32:49Go up, go down, how will it change? Well, unfortunately, probably initially go down in everything from deep fakes and a bunch of uncertainty and we're already kind of, you know, because humans trusting humans is another issue that we have. I'm hopeful that maybe we can begin to figure out some ways to have shared discourse, shared discovery of truth and I would love to have LLM work helping and amplifying that and that's part of what I'm doing at Stanford with human centered AI in other places because it's really important to solve. Thinking globally which group or groups in the world will be the biggest gainers.

33:28Access and use of AI stuff will be amplifying and so therefore people who are using it will be So the access to it and the amplification I think will really matter. But say I gain from it, but I'm doing fine. I just can't gain that much no matter how good it is. My theory is people say in Kenya where there's a lot of internet access, that's good enough, they'll have some cheaper open source model. And the young Kenyans who are very smart and ambitious will gain enormous amounts. And the AI itself will send to it trusted intermediary information about their ability and they will in fact get phenomenal job offers from other places and they will gain the most.

34:08Now that might be wrong, but that would be my answer. So I think that's true, although I think that's because the more that we have a good global connectivity, the more we have a rise of talent from everywhere. And AI added to that connectivity will exactly amplify that. And I do think that the notion of human amplification, like the people who are best amplified or best connected into our global ecosystem, them and I think we all benefit from it. It's one of the things that you and I share about the joy of amplifying talent from everywhere. Actually, in fact, amplifying talent benefits all of us.

34:42Are the mediocre word sales the biggest losers? Yeah. When Mark and Dresden go away happy, so to speak. Funny. I'd say the losers are people who are uncurious who want to live in the past, who don't care about learning the future at a broad base. And, you know, it's like, we have a term for this, lot of it's. Steve Jobs said that computers are the bicycles of the mind. We now have with AI the steam engines of the mind. Should a co -authored book with an LLM have first amendment protections? And again, you have such a book impromptu. I'd say the LLM shouldn't have first amendment, but I think co -authors like I can own the first amendment protection.

35:27Like it's what I say. But it can always hire a co -author, right, for some nominal sum, where the co -author adds a few words. It's a co -authored output. Once you allow the co -authored work through the door, anything can be co -authored. And who knows who did how much of the work. So you're granting first amendment rights to LLMs, which maybe I'm fine with, but is that an implication? Well, I don't think you have to grant the rights to them. you have to have a person who is saying, this is me, I own this. Like I actually think about it. But there'll be a company that hire such people known for their obedience to go along with what the LLM wants.

35:59Yeah. And they'll pay the person a quarter, the personal ad three words to the thing. Look, can today you buy someone's first amendment right speech, you know, like, like, write a free speech, yes, because you can you can pay them and give them the thing to say. That's just the link. But that doesn't necessarily mean the LMs themselves have those, those rights. You're background with LinkedIn. Which features of LLMs do you feel that's given you a better or deeper appreciation for? With LinkedIn? Well, you're bringing a different conceptual maintenance to everything. Including LLMs. So you've done LinkedIn for quite a while, obviously key role in its creation.

36:37And how does that make you see LLMs differently? And I've my own hypothesis, but I want to hear yours. So one of the things that I did when I was doing this is we've kicked off a product which is I believe live now, I'd linked in called Bizpedia which is trying to provide an in -depth wiki pedia for all of the information that professionals might need or anything like what are the different career paths, what is job skills, like how would I do this particular job better, how do I learn it if I wanted to transition and get into it. And it's again that human amplification. So we couldn't afford to do all that stuff but we could get the LMS generate the baseline of it and then we can use the human network to amplify it.

37:15And that was at least one kind of thing that I thought about with it. It obviously also has real implications in search and matching, like, hey, which people should meet each other or if I'm looking for someone to solve this particular business problem, it could be hiring, it could be sales, it could be partnering, it could be information. Obviously, that all gets amplified. My answer would be this. There were uses of LinkedIn that might appear anodine to a lot of snobby outside observers But are super useful to people who do them and I think LA limbs will be the same So people in poorer countries they want it to write a business plan for them the business plan will sound to McKinsey like please a lot of people who think they're better than that, but in fact it will be super useful Yeah, I think that's true and I also think that again in the human amplification Look, I think it's like, oh, look, I can ride the business line.

38:06I don't need to. Is that cool? But you adding to it will make it a lot better. Yes. But I think also your LinkedIn background, it makes you more sympathetic to a partial subscription model, which is the future for LLMs. Well, it's definitely a future for sure. And what percentage? Don't know. Could be 20, could be 80. Do you think subscription is the economic future of LLMs for the next 10 years? Well, I think it's definitely a future, but by the way, LLMs, as has already been announced, will be used to generate advertising. You're allowed to use hindsight here, but as a talent scout yourself, how do you think of the strengths of Sam Altman in doing what he's done?

38:46Look, I think this is an amazing gift to the world by Sam and the entire team. Sam I think assembles great people and helps them with high ambition. I think that's one of the things that is, you know, under described about Sam. I think that he also, he doesn't try to make himself the hero role. He catalyzes other people. It's one of the reasons I think he is also one of the good people to be leading the kind of safety thing because unlike, you know, a set of people who tend to have Messiah complexes, you know, it's only safe of I bring it to you. He goes and gets a number of people involved in doing it.

39:19I think that's another strength as part of it. And I think his ability to think super big has been helpful here. I mean, he frequently thinks something is going to be here tomorrow, where I disagree with him. I don't think it's going to be here even he's younger than I am even in his lifetime. But like that ambition is awesome. Open AI right now, I think they have about three hundred and seventy five employees during the critical breakthrough period. Of course, they had even fewer. Is that a new model of some kind? Or is it the old model, but the it's the alliance with Microsoft that makes everything work?

39:53Mid -journey, I've heard it's like 11 or 12 employees, which is crazy, right? Yeah, look, I think one and Instagram when Grailock funded it was 13 employees, right? So it is a model of generally, it's an amplification of the general software model where you can have very small teams that produce things that are our comedian levers that move the world. Now you do need in all of those cases massive compute infrastructure. So like AWS existed for Instagram and so forth. You need that in order to make it happen, but a small team of software people can create amazing things. How is higher education going to change?

40:28And exactly who or what will do it? Well, as you know, higher education's very resistant to change. It actually is. People do not. Yes. You know, and yet it should be changing. It should be reconceptualizing its way that it amplifies young people. it launches them into the world. And it should be providing LLMs that are tutors and helpful, it should be having LLMs that are helping professors do research and communicate with each other, like AI and doing all this stuff. Like it should be embracing all of that with full force. And yet most of it is, I think ignoring what's currently happening, but what actually breaks in the system because of that, who rebels?

41:09It's easy to read the T -Leaves of the Future in the past, you know, Michael Crow at ASU, you know, doing amazing work. I think he will trailblaze. Ben Nelson at Minerva, we had him on our possible podcast. Like I think these folks will eventually get other people to say, this is where the world's going and it's really good. And so students will switch to the institutions that are doing a better job. Yes. And you think that will... And the network effects are not too strong to stop that. No. Here's a general question, quite removed from the world of AI. I've discussed this with Patrick Hollis in a fair amount.

41:45It seems to me that after World War II, most of the Western world, maybe all of it, we've simply stopped building beautiful neighborhoods. There's plenty of beautiful individual buildings, artworks, music, whatever, but actual complete neighborhoods as a whole. They're now basically boring in mediocre, even if they're very pleasant to live in. Why did that change. Maybe you can challenge the premise if you want. No, maybe I don't know. If I would speculate, it's because it's the general kind of industrialization that makes it, you know, hey, figure out what is the thing that is closest to what most people want and produce a lot more of that.

42:27Right. Maybe it's that. But medieval towns in Europe, they're beautiful. There's a certain same as to them, but we admire the beauty all the more. So it doesn't seem that it's sameness per se, the lowering the aesthetic quality. Well, it could be production costs, right? And that's part of the industrialization. Like it's like the now, how do we, how do we produce each one at a kind of lower marginal cost? I would, I would hope that what we will see with, like for example, like I was literally talking to someone last night who was creating a speakeasy for their house and what they did to work with their designers, they went on to mid -journey and they created a whole bunch of different images and in the range of creativity.

43:09Like I hope that is what our future is and that's what I'm trying to beat the drum on to get us there. What is it about our current culture? In America, putting aside politics, but culture that concerns you most. Culture. Well, I would say, and obviously ties the politics a little bit, but I think a culture that says we should have civil discourse to get to reasoned arguments and information, which will obviously include science, about what should be, is the thing that is like what kicked us off from the enlightenment and from the Renaissance. And it's important to keep that in our fundamental bones and genetics and we are straying from it in very, very dangerous ways.

43:55And it's not just on the crazy right stuff with election nihilism and all of us. You obviously see that in wokism and everything else too. And I think that's where I think the two sides of this both left and right would be surprised for me to say, in this respect, you both have the same disease. And we need to be talking about how do we reason our way to truth and understanding and that that's super important? It seems that a lot of mental health indicators have become worse in this country. Maybe all the more so for young people. Why is that? Well, I don't fully know. I do think that we certainly think the indicators get worse.

44:36Is it because kids are always connected to kind of like it's like a little bit more Lord of the Flies and I always connected to other kids? Is it because they have the insecurities of seeing, you know, of being amplified like cyberbullying following you into the home. Is it because the technology is not built the right way to try to reinforce mental health? I think we can do that. Like part of the thing is how do we help provide support? Like you can use AI to help provide support on this. I think it's a good thing to do. Whatever it is, it's an important thing for us to work on. Now we're sitting here in the suburbs in Menlo Park, but will AI save the San Francisco textine?

45:18Or is that just gonna vanish because of poor governance? Well, I think in many ways San Francisco is doing everything it can to self -eminent on the tech scene. But there's a major triumph, says of late, right? Yeah, and they're in the city itself. Okay, yeah, yeah. They're not on San Teal Road. Yes. Yeah, but it's throughout the entire valley. But yes, OpenAI is amazing. And I do think that there is network effects throughout of all Silicon Valley. And you know, my advice to San Francisco, just as my advice to my living, is try to channel this stuff that's going on here to help all the rest. Like, for example, it's like, look, don't try to resist the tech industry being in San Francisco.

45:59Try to channel it to helping with the various problems, whether it's homelessness or crime or other kinds of things, and to try to help those problems. Like, for example, you could use cameras to help with a whole bunch of the crime problems. 10 or 15 years ago, it seems we had so many tech CEOs, either in their 20s or possibly even teenagers, seeing considerable success. It doesn't seem we have people in that age range anymore. Sam Altman, I think 38, maybe 37. So why are CEOs older now? The more important ones. What's changed? Well, look, I think we will see some new additional young folks and look, the history of the kind of status quo is, as CEOs tend to be older.

46:47I think it's the younger CEOs that tend to be the new startling companies. I mean, remember there's not just Tim Altman, there's also Patrick Olsen, there's also Brian Jeske, there's also those sorts of folks. And they were CEOs when they were younger. And I am confident that we'll be a new crop of them before too long. But what if it's the case, there's less low hanging fruit? The abilities you need are more synthetic, social networks are more important. This will favor the 35 year olds rather than the 19 year olds. Could that possibly be true? It's possibly true. I mean, there are different industrial cycles where you have to spend more time building up your position to get the capital credit to be entrepreneurial, bold, and charge, etc.

47:31That's definitely been cycles of that in history. I don't think it's impossible, but I do think it's a little bit like you were just with small groups doing stuff with software, because you can have small groups doing the stuff with software, you'll still have young CEOs, young founders, she or he will still be new blazing entrance into the world change leaders. And the Bay Area as a whole, you think that will remain as important as it's been? Yes, categorically, yes. If there's a tech startup scene that is currently underrated in the world or in the US, where would that be? Well, I'll say something mildly provocative just because it's entertaining, not Miami.

48:12Since there's this whole crew that's like, Miami is the future. I think the network effects of talent and everything else is much more here in other places. I think Austin is doing really interesting things. I think New York's doing interesting things. I think London's doing interesting things. Surprisingly, I think there's interesting things in Paris and Berlin. Sweden or yes or no? Sweden, yes. Yes, obviously Spotify and a bunch of other stuff, they punch way above their population weight. But since they're a small population, they don't tend to have a lot of immigration. I tend to think you need those to really get the fly wheels going.

48:48Any hope for Poland plus Ukraine or you don't see it yet? I hope for it. I don't see it yet. And obviously, there's other difficulties that are impeding right now. But to say it's entered in Poland. People from Russia and Ukraine, they go to Poland. and Poland becomes a new center with talent, basically from three nations, where it's totally possible. How much do you worry about low and declining fertility as a social problem for the West, for East Asia? Well, so one thing that I thought about writing an essay on, maybe I still do it, is it isn't, oh God, the robots are coming for our jobs. It's, oh God, can the robots get here soon enough?

49:24Because when we get to, like our whole system has been based upon the fact that we have a growing population so that the growing population can take care of the elderly. If you don't have that, you have a serious reorientation of our entire society. I mean, China's gonna run in that in a huge way and so forth. Japan's probably trailblazing. You see it a little bit with the care and robots and everything else. And so I think that, you know, it's like we desperately need the amplification in order to, you know, not create a massive burden for our children if that trend continues. But let's say we can afford it because of something like robots or AI.

50:02Doesn't that in a sense make the problem worse? We feel less of an emergency. So South Korea, there is 0 .8. Just keep the clock on ticking. Eventually they basically don't have people left. So how can that work out well for us? And the fact that someone pays the bill for our collective extinguishing of the human condition doesn't reassure me. I think in various ways we can cause... I don't think, you know, obviously you can do the math and go to diminishing zero. I think we will both do various forms of incentives stimulus, but other things, I think we can get it back to at least a replacement rate.

50:39Among other things, we might say, well, look, actually, in fact, being a parent is a paid job, right? Just because we think that that's an important thing is a society, and we can afford that from, you know, kind of the productivity increases are getting from AI and robotics. So we use the robot surplus in essence to pay families and that to be the second or third job in the family. Yes, exactly. Yeah, and Politically you think that will be super popular people hated or I think we could get to a place where it would be popular I think right now it would be considered to be science fiction and strange But if like a replacement rate keeps going down then I think people say oh, no, that makes sense and a lot of science fiction has come through Yes, no, this was you know you and I both love science fiction and trade recommendations on a regular basis.

51:27As a mob's three laws, how good were they? I think they were really good, although they were out of conceptualization for a target. If I were to update them, and it's a little bit like to reveal my nerdishness, Giskards Zeroeth Law. But I think that what you really want in it is to parallel almost a Buddhist sense of the importance of life and sentience, and that that's the kind of thing that you want in the, in if you're creating really autonomous intelligences. I think the kind of the uncle Tom, if it really is a totally autonomous being, being careful about going into it, you know, a new form of robot slaves is perhaps, you know, not ultimately where humanity would want to be.

52:18There's not enough stress in them, I think, and what the robots are obliged to believe. So a robot is free to believe something crazy and then act on it. That seems to me the biggest weakness of the laws, at least in what you see in the stories. Yeah. And hence the alignment with human interest around, like, how do you amplify the quality and value of life is, I think, a very good thing. What's an underrated science fiction novel that maybe our listeners, readers don't know about? Well, there's lots. Another one that I've been rereading recently, because I think it's good fun, but also raises good questions in a simple fun format is Martha Wells' Murderbot series.

53:00It itself does not really address those questions very directly, but it raises them in good ways, like persons and being a thing versus a person and so forth within a kind of a classic sci -fi romp. I've been rereading Ursula Laguin the dispossessed and I'm amazed how anti utopian and almost right wing it is. Yeah, yeah. Utopian society is a kind of nightmare. Yes. Well, look, it's partially because we need to have diversity in the human species. It's part of how do we enable as much diversity while it's that the diverse of creative expression, part of like freedom of speech and why it is valuable, is that diversity of craziness that also creates genius.

53:44What's a game you've been playing more of lately and why? I haven't really had a lot of time to play games because the AI stuff is occupying a total amount of time. I have a stack of games without their shrink wrap taken off that I'm hoping to get to. I find the AI stuff, it's totally wrecked my calendar. I had a year planned out that I could just do a whole bunch of other things. And now, every day you have to keep up with AI, you have to learn is like this doesn't work anymore. Throw up my hands and I feel a bit behind on everything. Yes, although by the way there will be a chatbot for that.

54:17That's good. What's a non -ovius problem we should be worrying about more? Well, I mean I think because so much of the discourse and the press around is around the macro things is you know AI in the hand of hands of bad human actors and there's a range of bad human actors. So I think that's really important. I think also the question around, like people tend to go, oh, wait a minute, the people who have the AI will be amplified. It's like how do we get that AI, like the most natural thing is to pursue where the money is. Well, how do we get AI in the hands of like lower income students and school districts and all the rest to make sure that it's there and provision.

54:59It's one of the things that I love about open AI, the accessibility of chat, GPDB, but how do we get as broadly and enabled as we can, as I think another important one? Let's say you're advising a small, the tech advanced nation, Singapore, Israel, would be two options. Would you tell them they should build their own LLMs? You will cost them a lot per capita, but they'll have their own LLMs. I don't think they need to, but I think they should get involved and perhaps work with the providers of LLMs to make sure that there are LLMs that fit their needs. That doesn't necessarily need to be that they need to build their own.

55:35But they say, hey, we need to make sure that we have LLM provisioning for our companies and our industry and our citizens. Okay, let's make sure that happened. Whether it's the, you know, we spend billions of dollars to build the one ourselves, they could do that. Certainly, no, nothing bad in doing that. But they should make sure that their industries and their citizens are provisioned. But say, we have a strategic petroleum reserve for better or worse. should Israel have a strategic GPU reserve. Don't nations such as the US get too much leverage over Israel if they're dependent on us from models.

56:10And right now, open AI's open, but open AI can't control how our government or regulate it, our government might decide to use it as a foreign policy tool, hand it out to countries that cooperate, deny it to countries that don't. Look, I think it's an important gesture of the dependency. But by the way, once you have the LLM, And it's, you know, as it were on the soil governed by your laws, the ability of the US to do that as much less, that's the reason why it's like, well, like, for some people is that we need to build the computers. And I do think, like, you know, depth of compute is a strategic advantage.

56:42It's an important thing to take a look at. And you may want to say, hey, we want to make sure there's a certain amount of compute that's on shore that is then aligned with our interest of our country, our society, our industries, etc. But also, by the way, if you just are the training and there's running and if you have the AI models and you're running them and you have that sufficiently within your study, your strategic dependency would be a lot less. So I think you have to plot that strategy with some care. But I do think it's an important strategy to be paying attention to. And I think, for example, we as the US, part of thing I like about, you know, the kind of the world order of the US is, Yeah, we sometimes do stuff that throws too much stuff, too much short out of the annex, that's a problem, but we also try to provision a lot.

57:28We try to raise the rest of the world, and I think we should continue to do that. As you know, in EU law, there's a right to be forgotten. That is arguably inconsistent with current LLMs. You can force a new training run by saying, well, you've got to take me out of the current system, but a new training run costs a lot of money. And to have loan individuals raising their hands, say, oh, the model has to forget me, That's just not going to work. Yep. So legally, where do you think the EU will end up on all this? Well, I think there's a smart EU, dummy EU, and which one is up to them? Smart EU is to say, look, what we need to do is we need to be dealing with the function of one of the kind of culture and society.

58:12So we say, well, we want to make sure that these AI tools have the right judiciousness in being asked about individuals, that's our particular culture. So we say, okay, you have to at least have a metabolic that could interrupt the query and interrupt the query in some way. And that's what that would be if that was our expression of culture and getting tech forward and how you do it. The bad one is say, no, no, you little bit like what the Italians are doing at chat GVD. Well, you can't do chat GVDs like, by the way, you're disadvantaged in your entire society and all of your citizens. You're being led with the loom and the steam engine.

58:49And so be innovative into the future. Yes, with European values and European concerns and so forth. But it's the steering into the future versus trying to enshrine the past. And that would be the less smart EU. And you're not sure which of those will happen. I hope they pick the smart one. I try as much as I can. I think European values and insights in the future, something I learn from and value. I want them to contribute that positively into the future. And we'll chat GPT through VPNs just dominate China at least for some number of years or will they somehow force people away from doing that?

59:23Because it's you're getting Western Anglosphere information all the time, right? Including about Tiananmen, China, everything else. They have demonstrated with what they call the Golden Shield that they are committed to creating a alternative internet and an alternative series So I think they will be able to do that and they even have it on the you know the control through VPN So, you know, we as Westerners go to China and we say, look, it works just fine with the ends and that's because they're allowing our VPNs through where as local VPNs they squash them. But I've seen some numbers, maybe they're not reliable, but they seem to indicate they are more chat GPT users in China than in the US.

1:00:02Now they have a larger population, but still that's a major effect that probably is happening now. And they just tolerate that and let everyone query it about, you know, Taiwan is a country or whatever. Look, in my view, they should, but I don't think they should, but what will they do? And also what's more is I think they will be because these models have less ability to put kind of controls in them. I think that will cause problems on even on short development. And they'll be open source in China, right? Once that's more of a thing. So they'll just lose their attempt to censor their own society or you think they'll somehow triumph over everything.

1:00:41A very smart and a very committed to the censorship. I think it'll create additional problems for them in so doing, but I think they'll figure out how to do it. Before my last question, just to repeat, read a new book, co -author with GPT -4 is in prompt to amplifying our humanity through AI, a Wall Street Journal best seller, and finally last question, read, what will you do next? Other than talk to it often. Yes. There's a bunch like AI is going so fast. There's a bunch of things that we didn't cover in on Prop 2. So I actually think we will do another book and set a content around AI possibly within this calendar year, which will be pretty amazing.

1:01:23Reid Hoffman, thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Conversations with Tyler. You can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review. This helps other listeners find the show. On Twitter, I'm Attyler Cowan, and the show is At Cowan Convose. Until next time, please keep listening and learning.