How to Empower Your Workforce And Foster The ​​"Concept of Mattering"

0:00This week on the Nosh Podcast, why the FDA and FTC are targeting a new category of snacks, What hit TV show is coming to store shelves? The latest from the WHO regarding sweetener aspartame and how to make an allergen-friendly brand appeal to all.

0:27Hi everyone, I'm your host, Carol Ortenberg. On the Nosh Podcast, we go inside the business of natural, organic, sustainable, and healthy food. Today, we're going to talk about classic dishes from our neighbors in the North, what snacks the FDA is saying we should just say no to, and industry response to the latest findings surrounding aspartame. Then, in an interview with the founders of allergen-friendly brand Everybody Eat, we'll hear how inclusivity has become the guiding principle of both the company's snack products and production model. Joining us today is reporter Lucas Southerd. Shalom You stole Jeff's greeting from last week Lucas Did he do Shalom last week?

1:11Oh man I didn't even think I thought that was being really clever I don't own Shalom any more than you own Shalom Well my Shalom was actually peace whereas your Shalom was hello and then next week someone can do Shalom as goodbye Don't you go telling me what my Shalom was Well as you may have gathered Editor-in-Chief Jeff Kleinman also joining us today. Hi, I'm so thrilled to be here. Thrilled to have you, Jeff. You sound really thrilled, by the way. Well, you know, I was until it became apparent that shalom is up for grabs. It became a shalom-off? Yeah, totally. Until it became something that only one person can participate in.

1:57It takes two to have peace. That's actually really true. Jeff, that was deep. Yeah, it was very philosophical. You can also have peace with yourself, I suppose, which would be one. But it takes two for hello or goodbye. Oh. You stunned us into silence with that deep thought, Jeff. I really don't want to talk about Shalom anymore. Carol, you just got back from a trip to our neighbors in the north, one of my favorite places in pretty much the whole world. Can you tell us a little bit about Montreal? Yes. Quick weekend getaway. Didn't get a poutine, which was depressing, but I did bring back some cheese curds as well as one of my favorites, ketchup-flavored snacks, as well as all-dressed-flavored snacks.

2:51I don't know why all-dressed does not exist in the U.S. It feels like it just fills up some leftover seasonings that co-packers have that they can throw together. and it's, I mean, it's, what is it? Barbecue, vinegar, sour cream and onion. I don't even know if anyone knows the recipe. It's just like whatever's left over thrown on a chip. So it's like a gorilla fart, but for the snack chips. I'm just not even approaching that one. Lucas, can you explain? I got nothing either, Carol. I'm with you on this. You don't know what a gorilla fart is? No. No. I'm sure you're about to tell me. So you want to clear the drunks out of the bar.

3:35You take the bottom of every bottle and whatever's been spilled in the well. Oh, yeah. We call that fallen soldier when I was in college. Yeah. Yeah. You just get them gone, man, with a gorilla fart. Carol, did you bring home any of those really bad bagels that they make up there? Oh, those are fighting words. I brought home two dozen of them, Lucas. I will be honest. I have a favorite bakery now. I think St. Viator wins. I don't know what you're talking about with your gross New York bagels that are like spongy and yucky. I like mine toasted from the fire, little chewy. I will come to blows over Montreal bagels.

4:18Sorry. Is Joe Beef in Montreal or is he? It is. It is. Is that still a thing? Is that still like one of the restaurants to go to? I went to one of Joe Beef's sister restaurants, which I appreciated. Alana Beef.

4:37Nailed it. Josie Beef. Josephine's Beef. I appreciated it because it was known for its - Eliza Beef. We're going to go all day, Carol, so just keep trying. I appreciated it because it was known for its cider beer wine list. And you literally walked past the daycare that shared a building with it to get to the restaurant. And I was like, oh, this makes sense. You can day drink and then pick up your toddler. Lucas, is this something sounding familiar? Would you take advantage of that? Hell yeah. I mean, any parent of young kids will tell you that one of the best places to bring your child when you don't have nothing better to do.

5:19and you need to kill time is like a beer garden because the kids can usually kind of run wild a little bit. Nobody really cares. It's outside that they can be loud and you can get a little lubricated and, you know, it's not a big deal. Lucas, you mentioned getting lubricated. I know you were taken by some FDA warning letters that were sent out last week. Yeah. I mean, this is something that I think we've maybe touched on before, but it's been going on for a while. And it's this idea of like THC companies making edibles into basically stoner favorites. And so the FDA, I was going to say like the FDNY for some reason, but the FTC and the FDA actually jointly basically told a bunch of THC companies to cease and desist making their THC products that are basically, I'm trying to think of the right word.

6:23knockoffs of popular snack food knockoffs yes like Doritos and Oreos and they all had some like cool names that you looked up for me Carol Pot Tarts Trips Ahoy, Stoney O's Stoney O's is the one that stuck out in my head the packaging looked pretty similar as well for a lot of them yeah this is something that's been around for a couple of years like people have definitely been worried they've been worried about about gummies that look too much like gummy bears as well. You know, the thing that comes to my mind is that recent Supreme Court ruling for Brown Foreman over the dog toy that was in the shape of and language of a Jack Daniels bottle.

7:11So, you know, maybe there's also a catnip issue out there somewhere. I think there's been some cease and desist orders, But I felt like there were so many different brands making these products. It seemed difficult to, it seemed like whack-a-mole. You hit one and another one popped up. For years, these dispensaries have had these kinds of products. And, you know, hopefully they won't be quite as stupid about it now. But see, I don't know if this is really going to make that big of a difference. because all these companies have to work at this point independently of each other on a state-by-state basis in how our somewhat ridiculous cannabis laws are put in place right now.

7:58And so I just feel like there's not a whole lot of risk to the brands themselves to produce these products, at least in the short term, until either the company or the FDA comes and says, hey quit doing it in the meantime they're probably printing money of you know dope ropes of the dope ropes that they're you know that they're selling is that like a like a nerd rope of i i think that's what that one was i i think i think that people are going to be as you know pretty protective of their high c trademark and they're going to let the fda know and look the first brand that gets slapped with a fine is going to be a lesson and the second brand that gets shut down is really going to send the fear of of regulatory action through the rest of them i mean they're they're i i think that they've gotta be careful and be smart enough not to kill the golden goose particularly when they're trying to to show that they're responsible enough to get The banking rules changed around marijuana.

9:11So, I mean, one would hope. And like, you know, I say this as someone who thinks this stuff's hysterical, but I just – I think the creativity can go in a different direction. It's not even really that creative. I mean, the names are kind of fun. They're fun to say, but it's not really that creative. I always just think, and I think we've talked about this before. Or if the whole bag of Doritos are THC Doritos, like how many chips gets you stoned? And in the course of eating a bag of chips, you're not going to feel the effects of what you've eaten. So like, how do you regulate that? You know, like there's, I mean, I guess it's like eating, you know, cannabis chocolate bars or something.

9:52You just have to kind of use at your own discretion. But it seems like these are kind of strange products to like the ketchup, the THC ketchup that we had and that we were talking about a while ago. So how do you dose yourself with something like that? Yeah, well, that's the problem with Lays, right, is nobody can eat just one. Exactly. So you're going to eat the whole bag, and then you realize that the bag is like 500 milligrams of THC, and you're like, well, I'm in for a wild ride. Yeah, it could be a couple of days. Better go to Denco at Fenway. Once you pot, you can't stop. That's what I was going to say.

10:26If you guys were going to start a THC-laced snack, what would it be? oh that's a really good question actually someone just started putting mine out there's a there's a company here that started making ice cubes and i i have always been an advocate of taking some of the higher dosage liquids and freezing them so you can use them as a cube in a nice cocktail okay I get it now ice is your favorite snack that seems like a strange choice I like to chew on ice as my snack on a diet or something I mean I would say and this is a kind of weird one but I'm a big fan of a good meat stick so I would maybe do like a THC like you know jerky or you know chomps you know partnership it wouldn't be cultured meat or plant based meat knowing where your interests lie.

11:28Just give me some good old-fashioned grass-fed beef. Maybe if I'm feeling a little fancy, maybe some bison meat or something like that, you know? My dad on this trip gave me some gator sticks. Were they from real gator? Yeah, did they have weed in them? They did not have weed, sorry. He gave me some meat snacks that were made out of gator. This is his high, I love you, honey, I missed you. Have some gator jerks. Good old Doc Ortenberg, always loaded down with the meat snacks at the ready. It seems like I might actually like your dad a lot. This is intriguing to me. He pulled out a gator meat snacks, a Louisiana New Orleans hand pie, and some zaps.

12:15I think it was like jalapeno spicy Cajun cheese curls. So he really came armed with everything you could need for a great weekend or a stomach ache. Your choice. They all sound good. So I'm with your dad. I can't wait to meet him. It's no weed Dorito, Lucas. But last week, Food Story Brands announced a new line of Yellowstone-themed meat snacks, breakfast items, coffee, and seasonings. Jeff, you were our barometer of authenticity for the Millie Bobby Brown coffee. What do you think of this mashup? Well, I mean, Four Sixes Ranch is doing all kinds of partnerships. And, you know, in fact, I think they were talking about actually sending out steaks from the Four Sixes Ranch as well as sort of a high-end meat partnership.

13:10I think as long as you're sticking with cowboy stuff, you're probably in pretty good shape there. You know, the other one is that I thought was pretty interesting and authentic, although like Yellowstone, you run the problem of being maybe a little spread too thin, is Snoop Dogg's ice cream, Dr. Bombay. Another food product from everyone's favorite L.A. rapper. Yeah, everyone's favorite skinny L.A. rapper. That probably fits in better with the weed snacks than Food Story brands, going to be honest. I don't know. I mean, you have some nice - He's got a weed brand, I'm assuming, right? Snoop Dogg?

13:54Yeah. That'd be ridiculous for an option. Or Taylor Sheridan? Both, I suppose, but I was really thinking Snoop Dogg. It's like four sixes clover. Taylor Sheridan strikes me as he has a cigar brand or something like that, or maybe a bourbon come in. But, well, I mean, they are making booze. They're making, they've got a beer. They've got RTD cocktails. So, you know, I don't think it's wrong when you have a platform like that to try and extend it in a bunch of different directions. You don't know where your hit's going to be. But again, I do think it makes sense because it's something that really emanates from the actual product and people making it.

14:41The question is, are we going to get cottage cheese, Yellowstone cottage cheese? Because the actor who plays Tate Dutton is the son of Good Culture CEO Jesse Merrill. So is it, you know, maybe that's coming down the line, Jeff. Maybe, but Yellowstone, they'd probably run into trouble with Breakstone. Oh, there we go. I thought you were going to say something along the lines of cottage cheese because it's like a cottage in the Western. I was sure that somewhere in Carol's mind there is an association between life on the plains and cottages. Yeah, that was where my head went. No, it was more straightforward.

15:22They seem like they have a built-in partnership. Jesse told me he keeps asking his son to like hold up some cottage cheese just on his Instagram or TikTok or whatever social media. I don't think Jesse can afford his kid. Jeez whiz, Jeff. That was a good joke. The real question, though, is Barbie versus Yellowstone. Who's winning on co-branded products? Because I think it might be team Barbie. I'm team Snoop. You're still team Snoop. You know, that guy is unstoppable. Let me tell you, there's a cowgirl Barbie, right? But there's no cowgirl Snoop. Snoop's an iconoclast. So instead of like Barbieheimer, it's like Barbie Stone?

16:07Barbie Stone. Yellow Barbie? I don't know how you combine those two. What I'm surprised is why haven't we seen a crossover? I don't know how you do it in CPG, but for the bear i mean that's seems kind of like an obvious one they're like yeah it's an interesting meal plan or something or frozen entrees i don't know like you know or just is there part of the dsm-5 that has that level of dysfunction that everyone in the bear has and it's that you know and it's actually named for them but everyone's writing about these italian beef sandwiches now. It's like the bear invented this sandwich. I mean.

16:52Does anyone make that as a frozen product? I'm surprised we haven't seen that like called out by brands that their, what is it, shaved beef would be good in that type of product. Don't they make that from a big cut and slice it, Lucas? Don't they sort of braise a tough cut for a long time? I would imagine they would probably use like a part of the round, like the top round or something. One of the leaner cuts that you don't really want an actual thick piece because it's too chewy because it's too lean. Is this different than like debris on a po' boy sandwich, which is like the little bits that fall off a roast and sit in the broth?

17:32No, and it's like not a whole lot different than like a Philly cheesesteak. They're just putting like cheese whiz on it. Philly cheesesteak is different because they're actually cooking on the griddle. but one's a dry cook and one's a wet cook. I get it. There are small differences, but I would say - That's a big difference. It's not that big of a difference. When was the last time you wet cooked a burger, champ? To be fair, I Googled Italian beef sandwich, a recipe, and it's basically you're making a pot roast. You're roasting a beef. You're cutting it thin. So you're not actually boiling anything.

18:08You're just taking juices. You're braising it though. as someone who's watched the bear they're sticking that thing in a big thing of juices right it's cooking in liquid well i mean that's that's the bear's version maybe that's the secret sauce but you know this this recipe is yeah it's i guess it's kind of yeah okay it's a braise i'm sorry i didn't quite hear you well i i read the first part and it said like you know brown it on every single and then it's like, oh, add in the stock and deglaze with red wine. Okay, it's a price. Okay, I stand corrected. I stand corrected. You're right. You're right.

18:47But you're not. Who's right? You're right. I said you're right. I'm sorry, the listeners at home might not know my name.

18:56Jeffrey Kleinman, editor in chief of BevNet, is right about what he thinks an Italian beef sandwich is, although he has never cooked one himself. Now you're just making statements you can't back up, Lucas. Do you know that for a fact? I don't know. Jeff, have you ever cooked one? Well, I've certainly made a sandwich out of leftover pot roast, which came with its own delicious sauce. I don't know if the Italians of Chicago would really consider that, you know, an authentic version of an Italian beef sandwich. Guys, I'm going to have to stop this debate for a little bit to discuss a different debate.

19:36Last week, the World Health Organization finally settled the question of if aspartame should be classified as a carcinogen. They came back with a somewhat confusing response that one committee said the sweetener was possibly carcinogenic to humans, and another committee found that the evidence of an association between aspartame consumption and cancer in humans was not convincing. Meanwhile, then the FDA was sad it was left out of the fray, so it jumped in. And in response to the WHO news said it had also reviewed the scientific evidence and found that within the recommended limits for aspartame, the sweetener was fine.

20:22Jeff, Lucas, I hesitate in asking what your opinion is on this debate and discussion, but what do you guys think? I think that in light of our discussion of Italian beef sandwiches, consumption of an Italian beef sandwich a day is probably more likely to give you cancer than consumption of a Diet Coke a day. I mean, look, what you got is people saying could do it, but you need to take in a lot of it, you know, so much more than most normal people do. But it's not a great thing to have. But it's, you know, a lot that you got to have. There's like 14 Diet Cokes for 130 pound person. And I mean, and yes, aspartame appears in a lot of stuff, but it's one of these things where people want to have healthy diets.

21:22And there are so many things that are linked to cancer, bacon, processed meats. One thing that they've identified is hot liquids. Really? What? Yes. I missed that one. Yeah, well, you got to look. So does coffee and tea fall into that category? You got to look at the WHO rulings on these things, the classifications on these things. I drink a lot of hot beverages, I guess. I know. I got to watch it. I got to cut back. You're doomed. Wait, what about an Italian beef sub? Hot liquid. Hot liquid. It does have hot liquid. We've determined that. And red meat. Oh. I have to say that I'm kind of with Jeff on this.

22:06I'm also kind of like the whole idea seems kind of strange to me that we're making a big deal over this. Like, it's probably not good for you. Is it going to give you cancer if you have a Diet Coke a day? It seems very unlikely. But like, should you be having a Diet Coke a day? Probably not. But Lucas, don't tell me that. You're a Diet Coke person. Oh, love a good Diet Coke. Really? God, the taste just kills me. Give me that real Coke. Give me that real fake sugar. I want the real fake sugar, not the fake fake sugar. With your Italian beef. With my Italian beef. So, look, we're having fun with it, but there was a lot of money and a lot of fear riding on this, simply because, A, people have been drinking a lot of Diet Coke for a lot of years, and we're certainly seeing increases in cancer rates across the board, and there's a lot of money in the products that use aspartame.

23:17But the sort of double message coming out of the two WHO agencies that are giving this information out kind of undercut the message around is a carcinogen. And I think it's hard for the consumer to know what they should be doing unless they're kind of tired and they won't have a Diet Coke to perk up. What should brands be doing? It's a good question. We saw a good number of brands when this was in the offing, when this piece of research was in the offing, starting to move away from aspartame or saying that they didn't use aspartame. Now, there are natural sweeteners, and I think people tend to lean into that.

24:18But I don't think aspartame is such a popular sweetener that people are saying made with aspartame, like they used to say made with Splenda. it's never been something that people want to lean into on the whole i i think it's going to go brand by brand there are certainly people who are so aware of the carcinogens that they may or may not consume that they're going to be looking for aspartame and sort of nixing it as a component of their diet. But I don't know that brands on the whole are going to run from it, particularly if it's such an important part of their ingredient set. I'm also not sure if that consumer is drinking Diet Coke to begin with.

25:15Maybe, maybe not. But I mean, there's certainly, you know, look, there could be a small market in people who don't want soda with aspartame, who only wants soda with a natural sweetener. So that person is really sitting there going, I told you so, and enjoying a Zevia right now. Or an Olipop. Or an Olipop. I think it goes hand in hand with sort of ongoing discussion of ultra-processed foods right now and people wanting to know, you know, what's in their food, how it was put together, as if a six-page long ingredient panel doesn't tell you. But people are worried about artificiality and being able to point to anything that they might be able to link, no matter how tenuously, to a disease that we all fear, is something that manufacturers are afraid of and that consumers are eager to find.

26:23Jeff, some really great points there. We'll have to continue to watch how this situation evolves. But with that, I think it's time to turn to today's interview. Lucas, who are we going to hear from? I talked with the founders of Everybody Eat. They told me about how the brand set out to make better tasting, allergen-friendly snacks. And in turn, they created basically a model of inclusivity in CPG for their fundraising or from everything from fundraising to their hiring practices to their production model. So it was a very interesting conversation. That sounds super exciting, Lucas. Let's get to it.

27:04Hi, everyone. I'm here today with the co-founders of Everybody Eat. I've got Trish Thomas, who's the CEO. Hi, Lucas. And the president, Nicole Wilson. Hey, Lucas. Thanks for having us. So explain to me a little bit about what you both have described to me as like inclusive innovation in running a CPG food company, because I think that's a little different than being branded as a allergen-free brand or a brand that's catering to a specific dietary need. One of the founding principles is that we're not trying to just cater to a specific dietary need. We're trying to make great tasting food that is clean and craveable that everybody wants to eat, regardless of dietary restriction or preference.

27:55And that is really different than trying to be an allergen-free brand. So we're actually a brand that means delicious food that just happens to be free from risks of the top 14 allergens and corn. And that is really a disruptive thought and thinking. But when you look at the problem globally, the bonding over food is the one thing that every culture in the world has in common. And when a special diet enters the family, that bonding gets blown apart and it gets replaced with like emotional and social isolation, shame, all kinds of negative stuff. And, you know, I just wanted to eat. Right. So I can't eat gluten, dairy, soy, corn or egg to manage some autoimmune diseases.

28:48but it was after doing the consumer research when we heard kids especially talking about how they didn't want to sit at the nut-free table they didn't want to sit at the peanut-free table they want to didn't want to eat weird stuff they wanted to be just like everybody else that really changed everything and we were like okay we're in the business of making great tasting food everybody can eat regardless of dietary restrictions or preferences and that is that That is very different than how most people approach allergen-free food. So, Nicole, what do you think is the secret sauce there? I think it's the philosophy of food and innovation.

29:27And we talk about shared love. We talk about with our philosophy toward innovation and how we think about food. And the core tenet is shared love. And so when we look at innovation and launching products and thinking about our own portfolio, we start with a universe of beautiful ingredients and build delicious tasting food, as opposed to another philosophy, which is find a food that you like, take out all of the stuff that folks can't eat or may be allergic to, and then you're left with a product that feels like something's missing. And for us, we think that's where the food, it feels like it's made with love, because it is by our team.

30:08But also we think about building up, not taking away. Building up is an interesting way of describing it. How do you kind of build that strategy around both flavor as well as marketing? We went into it saying we can versus, oh, these are all the things we can't do, right? And it's also, that's a game changer because what we found is we interviewed a lot of food scientists early on and they'd be like, oh, you can't do it. We have big food companies say, oh, you can't do it. There's no way you're going to make food that tastes good without all those ingredients. There's no way you can ever manufacture this without a risk of corn.