Risks vs Rewards: Rezoning The Blue Zones For CPG

0:00who's the latest celebrity in the pasta sauce category, why some brands are making the move from cannabis to hemp-derived THC and how one group of entrepreneurs hopes to translate the Blue Zone diet into a new line of CPG products.

0:26Hi everyone, I'm your host Carol Ordenberg. On the NOSH podcast, we go inside the business of natural, organic, sustainable, and healthy food. Today, the team chats celebrity-inspired spaghetti sauce and brands making the jump from cannabis to hemp-derived THC. Then, in our featured interview, we hear from Scott Marcus, CEO of Blue Zones Kitchen, about how the team translated the diet and lifestyle into a CPG line. Joining me today, we've got reporters Adrienne DeLuca. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. And Brad Avery. Hello. Hello to you, Brad. We have to start by something you were really excited by last week, which was a new tomato sauce line.

1:15What is it? You got to tell us all about it. You guys remember like a few years ago at the Oscars when just Eminem came out randomly unannounced and just performed Lose Yourself, which apparently was because it was never performed when he won Best Original Song back in 2002 when 8 Mile came out. And he didn't perform it because he didn't show up to the ceremony and just sort of slept through it instead. And so anyway, this is a long intro to say that Eminem is doing a spaghetti sauce based off of Lose Yourself. Oh, okay. There we go. There we go. If you'll remember, there's a famous line in Lose Yourself.

1:56Knees weak, arms are heavy, vomit on his sweater already, mom spaghetti i think you missed a few lines but i know what you're talking about there well it's just that's just a little that's that's your paraphrasing he's paraphrasing it that's the line that's the line i'm pretty sure that's the line get the lyrics up here josh pump in m &m we have the rights to play that anyway there's a um so the line is pretty famous online uh you know just because it's funny when he says mom spaghetti it's just a funny way to phrase it. And so someone has finally made Mom's Spaghetti sauce. With his permission.

2:34Yes, I believe he is involved in the brand. Adrienne, you were looking into he has a restaurant, right? Yeah. So this line actually was launched like from the restaurant sauce is what I understood it as. He's got one single Italian restaurant in Detroit called Mom's Spaghetti. my question about it is the line is referring to a guy about to go perform a rap battle and he's so nervous he vomits up his mom's spaghetti all over his sweater that's the line it's referring to vomit and that's my my question maybe he's mourning that the spaghetti was so good and he's sad he vomited it up or it's he's so nervous it forced him to throw up something he loved that much i don't know I'm trying to turn a negative into a positive here I'm pretty sure if you go on like know your meme though mom's spaghetti is like a meme I mean people riff on that line a lot it's pretty famous again it's like uh it was like uh when Yeezus came out and Kanye had that line where he's like hurry up with my damn croissants it was just one of those if a rapper just mentions food for some random reason uh everyone loves it and goes crazy so uh I mean this song is about 20 years old now.

3:49So I think it's about 20 years of mom's spaghetti. I've done some real time research on the mom's spaghetti restaurant for us. And it actually turns out it's just a singular takeout window in an alley that does serve spaghetti and$1 garlic bread. That sounds legit. Actually, that that's how you know, it's actually probably pretty good. I've never been there. But they've got I believe it 4.4 stars on Google and like 1000s of reviews. So I say give it a try forever in Detroit. Now, if you do go to the Mom's Spaghetti website, which is momspaghetti.com, it is currently sold out. It looks like they are selling online for about$13 a jar.

4:27Which is pretty pricey for spaghetti because I assume you're also paying for shipping on this. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting play though. And it's one of those, you know, questions of leaning into sort of, again, like a cultural meme, a sort of iconic line and a song and one that certainly stuck around and showed the test of time. But there's a degree of, is this brand something that can expand beyond that? But I haven't spoken with them. I'm not really sure who's exactly getting the business end of the brand. Carol or Adrian, have you looked into this? And it was actually pretty interesting to your point, Brad, on the website.

5:07when you uh click terms the terms of service it says that it's universal music group not like some co-packer or producer which made me wonder is this just about is it less about a cpg product and more promoting a musician is there really any long-term aspirations to make this a product line. It kind of reminded me a little bit about all the Taylor Swift seemingly ranch. There was the Primal Kitchen seemingly ranch. There was Kraft Heinz did seemingly ranch. All of them were limited time offerings. They weren't going to add this to their shelves permanently, but it certainly got them a lot of press just like this was covered in, you know, People magazine.

5:57I would have to agree with that, Carol, just given the restaurant's offerings and the fact that they did somewhat of like a limited drop it seemed on this I know it was you know available yesterday and if it's already sold out kind of seems like this has been just produced to you know serve that fan base that is still really hung up on the sweater line they are calling it a pre-order which would indicate that there is an order order coming yeah i'd be curious to see exactly that is there like a new album coming out that's being promoted and this is a just a quick promotional item and you know obviously it's very easy to get some press with you know doing a product like this or you know could it be the start of something bigger you know i mean running a restaurant for example if if eminem has been you know behind this restaurant for a while then certainly there's some legitimacy there and i'm curious to see you know if eminem is actually going to be getting involved and whether there's room for you know someone like him and you know given you know he's a controversial figure too for the most part um you know launching a brand or again like you said this could just be a promo item and it's you know for the fans he there is a reference on the site brad now that you mention it for digital downloads so there could be something to your point about maybe this is to promote a new album we'll have to we'll have to wait and see yeah spaghetti sauce nfts if there is brad i'm sure i i bet you there already is you will be all over that i bet you there already is a spaghetti sauce nft there was the olive garden nft thing that was that was like early nft wave

7:46you've you've silenced both adrian and i because we do not know i hear nft and my brain just goes like fuzzy pixels let's continue on to some other news on nosh this week brad you wrote a story yesterday about sumo snacks yeah i wrote about sumo snacks which is a cannabis edibles brand playing in the California Dispensary Channel, doing savory snacks, about 100 milligrams THC a bag for your tortilla rounds and your chips. And it too actually had a lot of celebrity involvement. Roy Choi is involved. Snoop Dogg, through his Casa Verde Capital, is invested. And the business is run by Redbud Brands, a studio venture firm.

8:31And so it's now in a holding pattern, as they say. Co-founder, CEO, Caroline was let go in August. They are now looking to retool the brand as a hemp-based product, looking apparently at Delta 9, so that they can play outside of the restrictive California cannabis channel with all its regulations that really are what the issues with the brand were. It sounds like this isn't just an issue in California. Certainly, I've read a lot of stories by the team about other cannabis brands making the swap just because this is a issue in most states, not just California. Absolutely. I mean, it's, you know, all the issues with the brand, as I was told, is not that it wasn't doing well in terms of sales and consumer pickup.

9:25It was gaining traction. It gained a lot of press, again, especially because of those celebrity partnerships. But you have all those issues that are plaguing the whole cannabis industry, slow, like 90 to 100-day waiting periods to get paid from retailers and distributors, which led to the issues with distributor herbal as well. You have the issues where you can't distribute across state lines. So you would have to set up separate manufacturing each state you want to launch in. And I think any brand that has been playing in this area has experienced this. And so for Sumo, it was just it was too much of an issue for it to keep going the way it was going.

10:05And that's why they've sort of taken this step back, put it on pause and are now going to relaunch sometime in the near future, I believe. Just building off of what Brad said, also covering quite a few cannabis to hemp pivots in the past few months, it seems, as he mentioned, that restrictive dispensary channel has not really proven to be a great space to grow a new brand, especially with a product that consumers might not be familiar with. There's not a lot of merchandising options inside dispensaries. They are getting a bit better with showcases as you walk around. But overall, they're just not the most inviting place for someone to walk into.

10:48So as you're looking to build brand awareness, it sounds like that might have been an issue for Sumo. Yes, if someone happened to go into a dispensary, they're sold in, they'll discover the brand. But otherwise, there's not a whole lot of opportunity to bring new consumers in because you're limited to that one space with limited foot traffic. Adrienne, I remember when we talked to Sumo last year at Nosh Live, it wasn't even just catching consumers' attention in store or creating an environment where you want to pick things up and read over what they are. It also just was they didn't know what to do with a bagged chip product.

11:27It doesn't naturally fit into a display. And so thinking about merchandising was a big issue for the brand. And when you go into grocery or mainstream retail, there's a lot of chips on shelf. yeah I mean a lot of dispensaries you have like you got to go up to like a computer just to browse it's like not even like there's displays or you know maybe there's minimal displays behind glass but a lot I mean I don't know how it is in every single state but a lot of places are just you know you're not just sticking out a display and you know come grab a you know a bag yourself make an impulse buy you're browsing you might already know exactly what you're looking for and you just type it and search it.

12:08There's no, it makes discovery really challenging. I think most of the recent data in cannabis shows that a lot of these edibles and kind of novelty products tend to be impulse purchases. But, you know, also to Carol's point, when you have these large bags and they're not probably presented right next to checkout, like that's going to take up a lot of space. It just reduces opportunities even further on a size level, but also that product format when you could reach for something like a little pack of gummies or a chocolate bar that might be more impulsy and and with in regards to sumo though it's also i mean i don't know if those are issues or not but i mean the main issue actually wasn't so much uptake again you know they said it was one of the sort of top performing brands within the sort of savory edibles category which is there's a huge savory edibles category yeah i'd push back on that one doesn't kiva have like a THC gravy for Thanksgiving.

13:06There might be a handful of brands playing in Savery as far as I'm aware. They were gaining traction with consumers and seeing solid repeat. The issues were more logistical back end. There's the issue where retailers are very slow to pay distributors who are then slow to pay the brands. So they weren't having cash on hand because they were waiting to get paid. And it could be months to get paid. So you're having to move money around when you are in that situation as a brand. I did read a scary stat yesterday that was something like cannabis brands currently are paying on average like a 40 % income tax, which if you think of some of these emerging brands, that alone seems like it's enough to kill off most of them.

13:50I forgot to mention the taxes as well were also a big issue that they mentioned. Certainly there's a lot of nuance to this story in particular. And for those interested, definitely check out Nosh for the two-story series about what's going on with the company and Redbud Brands. We'll continue to cover how companies are making the jump from cannabis to hemp-derived THC. But in the meantime, I think we need to get to our interview today. Adrienne, tell us a little bit about what we're about to hear. Of course, Carol. We are about to hear from Scott Marcus, CEO of Blue Zones Kitchen. We discussed how alongside his co-founders, including the original Blue Zones guru, Dan Buettner, as well as his former colleague at Vital Farms, Matt O 'Hare, how this trio transformed this longstanding lifestyle, but also diet into a CPG brand that reflects those core beliefs, but also maintains authentic to the Blue Zones brand that consumers have grown to know over the past 20 years.

14:56All right. Well, I can't wait to hear more about it. Let's get to that. I'm joined today by Scott Marcus, CEO of Blue Zones Kitchen. Good afternoon. How's it going? Great to have you here. As mentioned, you know, you all launched Blue Zones Kitchen right ahead of Expo East this year. And for our listeners, just for background, Blue Zones was started by Scott, as well as founder of Vital Farms and its current chairman, Matt O 'Hare, as well as the original Blue Zones guru, Nat Geo Explorer, probably maybe seen his Netflix miniseries at this point, Dan Buettner. To start, Scott, could you tell me a bit about Blue Zones Kitchen?

15:37How long was this brand in the works? Where did the idea for a consumer brand even originate? When did the products come into play? All that good stuff. Sure, absolutely. And thanks for having me and having this conversation about Blue Zones, Blue Zones Kitchen, and frankly, about longevity overall. The Blue Zones brand, as you alluded to, was founded by Dan Buettner. That goes back a couple of decades now. He and a National Geographic team started researching these parts of the world where there were concentrations of healthy, active centenarians back right around the year 2000. And so it's a brand, a long time in the making.

16:16And then Dan published his first Blue Zones book, kind of identifying some of these principles back in 2008. So the Blue Zones as a brand name has been around for now 15 years. So we always talk about these multi-year overnight successes, right? But I'd say from a Blue Zones kitchen food perspective, that's probably started when Dan turns his attention from the many books he had written about the Blue Zones to writing cookbooks. Dan realized that the eating part of the Blue Zones principles or the eating wisely, I should say, is probably the hardest one to follow, especially in this country where the environment is set up so that we always need something quick and convenient.

17:00And when we need that quick and convenient thing, it's either something super processed in our house or it's a drive-through at a fast food location. And so he started focusing more on the food aspect, wrote a book called The Blue Zones Kitchen at the end of 2019, which became a New York Times bestselling cookbook, and actually followed it up this past December of 2022 with the Blue Zones American Kitchen. And so Dan's attention started to lean towards the food aspect of the Blue Zones. And then when he joined forces with Matt O 'Hare, who had founded Vital Farms, it just made sense to try to let people eat the Blue Zones way, make it a little bit easier to follow those principles here in the U.S.

17:41And so the two of And then I was kind of brought in to make it happen. And that was about a year ago in 2022. So we're a year in. We're just hitting the market now and excited for where this will take us. As you guys developed these products over the past year, it seems everything landed in the frozen aisle. What does that format bring to the brand? How does it support the propositions of this eating wisely and broader Blue Zones lifestyle? Yeah, I'm glad you asked about frozen foods specifically. There are arguably a lot of places the Blue Zones brand could go. And frankly, we would love everyone to have a garden and pick all their food and make every meal from scratch.

18:26I think that certainly is the ideal, but obviously not necessarily the reality for everybody. And so for us, we're wanting to kind of impact the environment to people around, as I mentioned earlier, and make those convenient foods be better quality than the processed or faster that are the current alternatives. And the freezer, or the freezing technology, which we kind of laugh when we say that because it's not high tech, but freezing really allows us to do a few things. It allows us to lock in nutrients. It allows us to lock in texture, allows us to lock in taste, and at the same time, be a product that can be a convenience because it has some shelf life thanks to the freezer.

19:07And I know that's not always the first thing people think about when they think frozen foods. You know, I grew up a child of the 80s eating TV dinners. And, you know, there's always a little brownie compartment. And somehow, even though they were frozen, they were not the healthiest foods. And, you know, arguably even today, most of the products in the freezer aisle still have either a lot of sodium, a lot of sugar, or a lot of processing and preservative ingredients that, frankly, shouldn't be necessary. And so we kind of look at freezing as a little bit of our secret weapon. But really what it allows us to do is to fulfill the Blue Zones lifestyle of eating in a way that is convenient, because it's not always convenient to cook every meal from scratch with every ingredient grown in our gardens, much as I'd love that.

19:53That would be ideal, wouldn't it? I want to take a step back and just get into, you know, how you approach the task of translating this very well-researched, as we mentioned, well-established diet, but also lifestyle into a physical product and brand. Where do you begin? What roles did you all take on during that process? us? Yeah, that's a great question. Having a brand established like the Blue Zones, having food guidelines in a way makes things very easy, right? Because we have the roadmap or the kind of list of potential ingredients right in front of us. Because we want to be true and authentic to that, we are going to stick to a certain set of ingredients and a certain nutrition profile.

20:40But what it also does is it creates a little bit of risk, right? Because you're now translating a brand name that some people have known for 15 years, known for lifestyle, you know, ways of living. And now all of a sudden we're a CPG product on the shelf. So it certainly has a little bit of risk from that standpoint. But ultimately, you know, like any brands, probably all the other folks that you've had on this podcast, the magic happens when you have a consumer need and a brand meeting that need. And so ultimately for us, it really is saying, hey, We're all about longevity and the principles that we've learned through all this Blue Zones research over the decades.

21:20There's a consumer need, you know, an interest in longevity, which started in about, you know, 500 BC when people were looking for the fountain of youth, but also a need for convenience and a need for flavor profile, right? And we're able to match those things together. And so that's how we've translated it. Again, it really is important for us to be true to the brand, true to who we are. We're not willing to stray from that. We're not going to start putting junk ingredients. We've chosen to make these meals fully plant-based, not that there isn't some meat or dairy in the Blue Zone diets, but it's a small percentage that we just decided to keep it clean.

21:59And so that did become the roadmap for us, though, which is terrific. And then to your point about the roles that we've all played, obviously Dan Buettner is the Blue Zones guy, right? He's literally written the book about the Blue Zones. And so, you know, he certainly keeps us educated, keeps us honest. And, you know, he's also been the lead advocate for what we call our maniacal attention to deliciousness, because he knows that for folks to actually, you know, shift their behaviors or, you know, create a new routine, they have to enjoy it. And so even though we have this list of guidelines around nutrition and ingredients, the most important thing I would say for Dan is, how does this stuff taste?

22:43Does it taste good enough for people to put into their regimen? And he's really been the advocate for that in our organization. And then Matt's just tremendous. He's got, I think he says 50 or so startups under his belt. He knows how to get a business off the ground and make sure we've got the right structures from a people perspective, from a financial perspective. But he's also the entrepreneurial spirit. And so he's, you know, a really good advocate for thinking differently, pushing the envelope a bit, and we all balance each other really, really well. So it sounds like this might have been easier than starting a brand totally from scratch.

23:23And maybe Dan's keeping you guys all in alignment for that end result. That'd be fair to say? Yeah, you know, I mentioned that, you know, there's always some risk to building a sort of a new business off of an existing brand. But I would have to admit that having a brand that exists, has existed for 15 years and now has a Netflix documentary special about us is certainly a benefit that we're happy to take. And I should also mention, in addition to Dan, Matt, and myself, Abby Coleman joined us last year as our COO, a very experienced leader in the the food business, someone that I had met about 20 years ago personally.

24:00And she has done an amazing job of building out the portfolio and really the responsible party for making these delicious foods come to life from sourcing through, you know, getting us onto shelf. Talking to you in the past, Blue Zones and Vital Farms do have some similar missions and ethos behind them. I guess yours and Matt's combined experience, how did that influence just Blue zones as it developed over the past year and in collaboration with Dan? Yeah, you know, Matt famously built Vital Farms under the idea of conscious capitalism, which was the John Mackey Whole Foods essay and then bestselling book, which for anyone who doesn't know fully, the quick version is that conscious capitalism means that instead of only focusing on the bottom line and profitability and shareholder value, the organization is really there with a focus on all stakeholders.

24:53Profitability is an important aspect because if you can't stay in business, then you can't support all the stakeholders, right? So it is a component. This isn't, it isn't nonprofit, but it's a very different way of thinking about and approaching the business. And, you know, Matt did that with Vital Farms. And I think, you know, I could speak for Matt and myself, and I say probably most people involved in that business really had an impact. And I think I personally, and I don't think Matt or I would ever touch a business that didn't operate that way now moving forward. And so with your Blue Zone's Kitchen just getting off the ground, it's certainly in our mindset.

25:29When we talk about sourcing ingredients, it's not only about the ingredients and the quality that we want to offer to our consumers, but it's also what are the land and even employment practices of those farms, of those suppliers. So absolutely, you know, even though we're not technically a B Corp yet at Blue Zones Kitchen, it is a mindset that we have that certainly also fits the ethos of sort of the Blue Zones lifestyle. I'd love to get into the sourcing practices a bit. I guess, how did you all go about building out the supply chains around all of the various ingredients needed for these products as a new brand, how do you work to ensure all of those networks are efficient and synergistic?

26:13Yeah, Adrian, I would say it's certainly a work in progress. But the important things for us from a sourcing perspective are the focus on quality. And again, quality we define by the nutrients, the actual taste and the textures of the foods. But we also, as we were just discussing, define quality as, you know, who the organizations that we're working with, who they are and how they operate. And so having control of that and sourcing things directly ourselves is really important from not only a product quality perspective, but from an ethos perspective. That said, we're just starting to hit shelves now.

26:49So it is early days, but we've already built some great relationships with suppliers. I spent some time on a farm just a few weeks ago, getting to know the farmers and the organization, which is one example, but, you know, everything from the right ratios of stock to leaf in our kale, you know, it comes down to really being particular and fussy. Abby and some folks she's working with have really led the charge there and done an amazing job. But long term, we certainly have a vision to getting closer and closer to the supply of all of our ingredients, making sure that we can tell the stories of where all the food comes from and feel really great about every ingredient and every dish that we serve.

27:29I believe, you know, we've also mentioned in talking in the past that there's already kind of a slate of new products in the works coming for next year. As you guys, you know, look to expand Blue Zones, how are you thinking of representing each of these different regions? How do you reflect that in your product mix? Will you ever go out of the frozen aisle? How are you guys approaching that? Yeah, absolutely. We are, I think I mentioned that we were building a slate of innovation or new products, frankly, because we're so excited about what we're doing and the early reception and feedback we've gotten.

28:03Everything we do is certainly not going to make it to market and hit shelves, but we're having a lot of fun working with chefs and crafting what some of the other, the next dishes can be. And so, you know, to your point around the regions and there were five original blue zones identified, you know, back again, 20 years ago or so, it's easy and, you know, consumers and even some retailers do sort of compartmentalize like the Italian section and the Asian section, et cetera. The Blue Zones philosophy is much more about the way of eating and predominantly beans, greens, and grains are kind of core to the meals that we create.

28:40And so we're not necessarily looking to create the line of Japanese products, you know, modeled after Okinawa or the line of Costa Rican products modeled after the Nindikoyan Peninsula, which is one of the original Blue Zones. It's about the style of eating. That said, some of these dishes will certainly feel like they're inspired by one region or the other. Some retailers may place us in, you know, one door or the other because of that. But it's not how we're necessarily approaching it. We really want people to understand and hopefully learn a little bit more about ways of eating that can be more nutritious and healthier for you.

29:16And whether that's a minestrone casserole that, yes, might be Mediterranean-inspired, but is loaded with antioxidants and beans and vegetables, or a dish with beans and vegetables from Costa Rica, it still fits the same principles in the Blue Zones lifestyle of eating. In terms of expanding outside the frozen aisle, I think we started by saying that we imagine that the Blue Zones name could be on a lot of things if done the right way. But, you know, it's early days. We're just a few weeks onto our first shelves. And so our focus right now is, you know, get some trial, get out of the gates, you know, in a pretty robust way and get some of these meals in people's freezers.