Five Stars

29:51You heard them. T-Mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible trade-in in any condition. Check them out to see how much you can save versus the other big guys at T-Mobile.com slash switch. At a restaurant called Tasha's in Dubai, Christopher Kinahan gave it five stars. He took a photo of the patio through the restaurant's window and posted it with his review. When you zoom in, you can see Christopher Kinahan's reflection in the glass. And at a hotel in Budapest called the Oriana Palace Hotel, four stars out of five, Kinahan posted 44 photos, including one of a long hallway with marble floors and velvet curtains.

30:32At the far end of the hallway, there's a large mirror, and there's Christopher Kinahan. The review said, I'm on two minds with this hotel. I cannot rate it five stars, even though it is close. If I could rate it 4.5 stars, I would, but unfortunately, I'll rate it four stars. At the Hyatt Regency in Barcelona, he posted a photo of a bathroom with mirrors. He gave the hotel five stars, but wrote, The location, in my opinion, is better suited to business community than the tourist travelers. Although I would stay here again for tourist break, as I believe it offers good facilities for a reasonable price.

31:15The reviews are from all over the world. Zimbabwe, South Africa, Turkey, Hong Kong, Belgium. These turned out to be quite instrumental and important in terms of mapping out where he was travelling, but also on occasion, people that he was engaging with. So, for example, he would maybe book himself into a hotel and we were able to identify other people that were in that vicinity at similar times and identify these people as being associates of Kinnehan's. And indeed, I think we identified a number of parties that are involved in his financial activities that I'm pretty sure the security services still don't know about.

32:07Investigative journalists have reported that Christopher Kinnehan has tried to set up a new base in Zimbabwe, near known drug trafficking routes, and tried to purchase a fleet of military aircraft. Journalists have also reported that the cartel tried to buy gold in Zimbabwe to move it through South Africa to Dubai as a way of laundering money. Kenahan's Google reviews confirmed that he'd spent a lot of time in those two countries. He reviewed an airport cafe in Johannesburg. We witnessed a stunning sunset as we shared drinks and discussed some business. The food was good, the company equally as good, but the only slight drawback was that the service was not quite equal to the cuisine.

32:57In one restaurant review, Christopher Kinahan complained about a waitress, who kept calling him boss. We asked John Mooney to read the review. I did explain that I did not like to be called boss and please could you call me Chris, Mr. Vincent or sir. The waitress tittered. I thought nothing more of it until we were paying my bill. My friend was kind enough to pay the bill and were about to leave when the same waitress made a point of saying thanks boss.

33:36Were you surprised when you read the reviews? I was and I wasn't. I was a little bit taken aback that someone who was the subject of an international manhunt would carry a phone to begin with. Because I thought he wouldn't carry a phone in case it could be used to track his movements. I was completely astonished that they would be taking images on that phone and uploading them onto Google for anyone to see. And I was both bemused and completely taken aback that they would accidentally photograph themselves in those same images that they were posting online. This is an individual who's one of the most wanted men on the planet.

34:29But still, he's just a man who makes mistakes. In one of Kenahan's restaurant reviews, he posted a photograph of his meal. In the photo, you can see a laptop on the table next to the plates. The webcam is covered with tape. And I always thought, this is only a suspicion I have, but I do feel as if I know him, I always felt that he posted those reviews when he was bored and hanging around and someone was late, running late to meet him, that it was something like that. I have identified and analyzed encrypted communications networks that the cartel have set up so that the key figures within it could communicate with each other securely.

35:21And they've spent lots of money building these secret networks, encrypted networks, to stop intelligence services snooping on their activities. And then he goes off with a smartphone, opens up a Google account and starts posting images of himself at specific locations. He names these locations and starts taking a deep dive into the types of food he eats, his opinions of various matters. I mean, one of the most incredible things that he posted on Google was a review of Dubai's immigration service after he had had his residency card reissued. In his review, Kenahan wrote, I visited the Department of Economic Development in the Dubai Mall 7 November 2021 at about 11.30.

36:18I went there to use the interactive machine to update my Emirates ID. The only interaction with the staff that I had was with a security officer, who was most helpful in guiding me to the machine and then advising me on its use. Based on my experience while visiting this office, I rate this visit five star. That actually proved that the Emirates knew he was there, and they could no longer pretend or deny that they knew that this wanted man was in their jurisdiction. And that turned into a very big story in Ireland because the Emirates had been insisting that they were taking every action against him.

37:04But I don't know many fugitives who wander in to immigration services and have their residency permits reissued when they're among the most wanted people on the planet.

37:19Do you know how his sons felt when they found out that their father was posting these Google reviews? Do you have any idea? What do you think the sons were thinking? I suspect that when Bellingcat and the Sunday Times began publishing these reviews, I think there was probably a degree of horror at what had happened. I think there was probably even a greater sense of horror when they discovered that they couldn't take down the reviews and delete them and delete their accounts. we believed that they had set up two-factor authentication on that particular account but the big problem that they had was that the email address that they had used to create the accounts had was actually gone because it had been tied and created using a defunct website so when they were trying to gain access to that google account they couldn't do that because the two-step authentication which involves sending an email to the account used to create the Google account was now gone so they were kind of caught in this situation where they had to leave all of this content including photographs and locations online for everyone to sift through and I think his sons in the back of their minds would have known that every security service in Europe would be poring over these reviews and using them to, I suppose, trace, you know, collate information on them.

38:55And we still don't know how many puzzles were solved by the disclosure of that information. In January of 2024, Irish police said that they hoped to soon have an agreement with the United Arab Emirates to extradite Christopher Kinahan and his sons to Ireland. Christopher Kinahan may have tried to make a deal with Russia and Iran to get out of Dubai and avoid extradition. A police source said, Their world is now very small. There are only a handful of places that they can move to. As soon as they try to leave Dubai, we will be all over them. And in October of 2024, Ireland and the United Arab Emirates agreed on a new treaty, which could reportedly lead to the Kinnahans' extradition.

39:47their organization is very durable I don't know how many times I've interviewed senior police officers who've told me that Kinahan is about to be arrested and extradited that the cartel is about to implode or that something else is about to happen and yet they're still there Just the last question if you did get a chance to interview Christopher Kinahan, what would you ask him? So could I use this opportunity to once again extend that invitation to Christopher Kinahan? Yes, if he's listening. And his sons. And I've no doubt they will listen to this podcast and they'll listen to this episode of Criminal.

40:36You think Christopher Kinahan's going to listen to this episode? Do you think he's a criminal listener? I've no doubt that Christopher Kinahan or one of his associates will listen to this podcast. this guy monitors all media and radio shows and podcasts that are broadcast about him. I know that they have contemplated at certain times doing an interview to set out their position. If I ever got the chance or the opportunity to meet him and interview him, I think I'd ask him, how did he do this? most criminal groups implode because their hierarchy and their leaderships turn on each other. They implode because they try to transition into legitimate industry and put their criminal activities behind them, or they're imprisoned.

41:31And none of those scenarios really fit Kinehan. I'd also like to know if there are areas of this that have been misinterpreted, that maybe there were other dynamics going on within the family, within the organisation. But he's the only person that can really tell that story. And so far he's chosen to remain silent on that. But I have to say, I do think there will come a day where he'll send for someone like me, or it could be someone else, to certainly put on record what happened and his story. And I'd really love to hear that. Well, if you're out there listening, get in touch with John. He's ready.

42:19I won't hold my breath.

42:45The End

42:55For each episode of Criminal, you can see them at thisiscriminal.com. And sign up for our newsletter at thisiscriminal.com slash newsletter. And we do hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal Plus. Keep listening to hear one of our recent bonus episodes with me and Lauren Spohr answering listener questions. To learn more, go to thisiscriminal.com slash plus. We're on Facebook and Twitter at Criminal Show and Instagram at criminal underscore podcast. We're also on YouTube at youtube.com slash criminal podcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

43:36Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.

43:56Welcome to Criminal Plus. I'm Phoebe Judge. I'm Lauren Spohr. And Lauren, we did it. 2024 is almost in the books. Complete. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, Lauren. I always think about how odd it is that we've actually had 24 years since 2000. Do you think about that? You're thinking about Y2K. Yeah, 2025, that sounds wild to me. Where were you on New Year's Eve in 1999? Oh, I have a very good place that I was. I was in the middle of Lake Superior on an ice road that ran from Bayfield, Wisconsin to Madeline Island. It's a miles-long road across Lake Superior, way, way up in northern Wisconsin.

44:43It was about negative 12. and I had walked out on the ice road all by myself in the middle. The most wonderful thing about this ice road is they would line it with old Christmas trees to kind of show you the path and my father would take us out there and he'd stop the car in the middle of this frozen lake and open the doors and you'd hear the ice creaking underneath you. Horrifying. But I walked out and was out there by myself on the ice road. the middle of Lake Superior for that New Year's Eve. Where I was, it was the Christmas of my first year of college. And I was home in Jacksonville. And I think I was just hanging out with my friends from high school.

45:33We were all back in town. And if I'm remembering correctly, we were just driving around. And I remember there were fireworks. So it was a sort of suburban. Seems dangerous to be driving on New Year's Eve. But also sort of classic, if you can picture like a 90s movie. You just drive around with your friends and that's how you spent the past the evening. Probably went to a gas station and got a stranger to buy you some Miller High Life and then just drank it in the car. And I was all by myself in the middle of a frozen lake. So if aliens had come down on Y2K, you were ready. Oh, I mean, I was a beacon.

46:09I mean, I was out there all alone in the middle. Last time, we told you that for our last episode of the year, I cannot believe it, we were going to be doing an APA, an APLA. Ask Phoebe and Lauren anything. And we got so many emails and voicemails from you asking questions. And so here we are. Should we jump right in? I'm going to drive. So Lauren has just received these questions and voicemails. Katie Bishop, our supervising producer, has collected them all. I don't know what these questions are, and Lauren is seeing them right now for the first time. So we are coming to these for us. She's kind of curated, picked through all of your questions.

46:53If we don't get to your question, there's always next year. We have a voicemail from Sherry. My question is, what is your favorite meal to prepare for yourself? And also, what is your favorite meal to eat when you go out to a restaurant? I am very much looking forward to your upcoming Ask You Both Anything episode. So thank you so much. Hope you both have a wonderful Christmas and a happy new year. And thank you so much again for what you do. Well, thank you, Sherry. My answer changes a lot for what I like to cook for myself at home, but I'm just going to say the first thing that comes to my mind, which is a salmon with some sort of kind of a salmon bowl.

47:46So a rice situation with salmon and some kimchi and some greens on the bowl and maybe a little avocado. That's something that I like to cook for myself. I feel like I'm at an impasse here. Like, do I lie? No, no. What's that thing you always used to make for yourself? It was some sort of tempeh? I do like to cook tempeh and tofu. I think I just don't cook. I'm going to revise the question to say my favorite meal to eat at home that I think is better at home than at a restaurant is a beautiful small steak and a really beautiful kale salad. And having those things prepared for me by someone else in the home environment, that's my number one.

48:31And I could eat it, you know, seven nights a week. I really, I think it's wonderful. What about when you go to a restaurant, Phoebe? I would say that I am always looking to go to a Vietnamese restaurant. That's true. I love pho. I love Vietnamese food. And so if you kind of – I also love Middle Eastern food. But, yes, if I can get good Vietnamese food, that's – and when I order at a Vietnamese restaurant or a pho restaurant, what I would get is beef broth. But hold the beef, tofu and vegetables. And it's an incredibly confusing order. They're like, well, wait a second, but you don't eat meat. But beef broth with tofu and vegetables, no beef.

49:18That's my order at the Vietnamese restaurant. What about you, Lauren? Yeah, I think I like to go out for dumplings. I also really like to go out for fancy Neapolitan-style pizza. Oh, God, I've been pulled on a couple of those with you. You've been a good sport. How about the pizza? I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't get Neapolitan pizza. And I understand the simplicity of it. I've been to some of the best in the country with you. And I'm always like, is this a little bland? It's all about just the salt. I think if you really like salty foods, the simplicity of that tomato sauce and bread is so perfect.

49:55Phoebe, what from Donna, I need a question from Donna. What's your process for adding music to the episodes? And who's responsible for picking the tracks? And then she's specifically curious, Phoebe, about your role in the final package. Music is a very controversial topic around here because we all have our own opinions. So I'll tell you how it works. Here's how an episode of Criminal is made. A producer pitches a story. I pitch stories too. We have a pitch meeting once a week where we all pitch, and we all kind of decide whether this is interesting or not. And if we think the idea is interesting, a producer will go and kind of do a pre-interview with the guest, see if the guest is working out, then comes back and talks to me and Lauren and says, you know, I think they are interesting.

50:40And we say, okay, let's book them. And then I will work with the producer to kind of research the story, get prepared. Then we do an interview. The producer is there with me. We were talking during the interview. I'm doing the interview. And then afterwards, the producer will take that raw interview that I've done and kind of make a rough draft of a script. Then that script will go to Lauren and the producer, and they'll do a read-through, a first read-through. And then after that, I'll come in for a second edit, and we'll read through, and we'll fix the copy, and we'll change things around. And these are long edits.

51:17Yesterday, we were in for two and a half hours. And another producer joins at that phase also who's totally fresh to it, knows nothing about it. So we kind of at every stage are trying to bring people in who don't know anything. Lauren, I know things because I've done the research and I've done the interview. But then when Lauren comes in, she doesn't know anything. And then when I come back in, I know something. Lauren knows something. But the new producer doesn't. So after we go through that second edit, I will then take the script and I'll track it, which is what we call when I do the narration for episodes.

51:50And then the producer will take those clips of tape and my narration and put together a layup. We call it a rough mix. And they'll choose music when they're doing that process. They then send that mix back to me and Lauren. and we listen to it. And another new producer. Another new producer. We listen to it incredibly closely and we give notes. The notes are down to, you know, can you put it half a beat more? Take out this breath. The music should start 0.5 seconds sooner. I mean, they're very, very detailed notes. But sometimes they're more ephemeral. Like, this song is kind of depressing under this funny moment in the story?

52:38Like, does it feel dissonant to anyone else? And we'll sort of like, so you end up with like sometimes five or six pages of timestamped notes. Some are really small technical and some are more big picture. Often, even at this stage, we'll say listening to it all put together, I got kind of bored here or I got confused here. And we'll go back to the drawing board and have to like write new copy for Phoebe or, you know, maybe we'll have to like read some legal document that we hadn't located before because we have uncovered some question that we didn't know we had yet. Yeah, and we skip the whole fact-checking process, which is another thing that happens, a big thing that happens before I get to the tracking.

53:14But, you know, so that for music-wise, I have a lot of notes. I have constant notes about the music. I have very strong opinions about the music. I'm constantly asking people to swap out songs, move things sooner, fade out slower. And then we will usually have to do retracks after of first listening because we've made so many changes. And then the producer kind of finalizes it and sends it to Veronica Simonetti, who's our engineer. She masters the whole thing. It will get sent back to the producer who listens one more time. And even at that point, sometimes there's changes. And then it's kind of put to bed.

53:48So that is the whole process from A to Z. And one of my favorite things that happens even and can happen at any stage of the process and is one of my favorite things. And one of the things I'm most proud of about how we work is that at any stage, if the producer has any kind of funny feeling like, hey, just putting this, these two ideas next to each other, you know, create some sort of sense of correlation that we didn't intend. Like, I feel like people can bring questions at any phase and that's super encouraged. And that's my favorite part about this work is that there's never a sense of like, well, you should have thought of that a few weeks ago and how dare you bring it up now?

54:25You know, We always want to sort of talk through any little worries, any questions at any phase. It's never too late to change something. You know, right after this, I'm doing retracts. Sometimes I'll do four or five different versions of retracts because we've thought about something or we're uncomfortable with a fact and we want to get some more, you know, research done. Or sometimes I'll be like, Phoebe's read is kind of dramatic here. Well, yeah, Lauren and I do. Like, there's like some really subjective moments where I'll be like, Phoebe sounds grumpy, you know? The funny thing about, I mean, I think, you know, one of the reasons, the main reason that this show's as successful as it is after so long is because of the smart people we work with.

55:11But the other really funny thing is that this process, me and Lauren kind of started the show in this same idea that we would be there at every single step of the way and not kind of farm stuff out. But really, we care so much about every single bit of how these episodes are put together. and that's the way it's always been. We've been fighting over a song or a read since day one and the team is a lot bigger, but we've kind of kept that throughout these last 10 years of how we produce episodes. Okay. Are you ready for a voicemail? Yeah. Hey, it's Morgan in Little Rock. Wanted to ask for the last episode, not to be material, but what is your most prized possession or really like the most sentimental thing that you own that you just can't ever get rid of.

56:07Okay, cool. Thanks. I think this is Morgan who has, if I'm correct, this is Morgan who's a longtime listener and who we met at our live show in Austin years ago. And I think who attended this tour twice. So hello, Morgan. Thank you for listening. I hope you're right. I think I am. Lauren, what's your answer? So mine's kind of embarrassing, but it is. Is it the blanket? Yes. The most, the thing that I think about, like if there was a fire that I would be, the only thing that I would be sad to lose in a fire is I have this like small piece of my baby blanket from when I was a kid. And occasionally I will remember that I have it and I don't know where it is and I'll go looking for it and I'll find it in some box.

56:52And then I just feel comfortable knowing I still have it. Everything else, replaceable, fine.

57:02I don't know. You know, in my family, we always call things famous. You know, something's famous. It's a famous box or a famous painting or a famous piece of clothing. So there's a lot of things like that that kind of get passed down. But I don't... What about your bracelets? Yeah. You're not, like, we've joked about your bracelets getting on my nerves, but it's kind of a non-negotiable. Like, you're attached to them. There they are. You like that one? Merry Christmas. Do it louder. Jingle, jingle for Merry Christmas. Sometimes someone will say, like, the band has started up. The orchestra. Sarah will say to me, like, well, the band was going at 2 a.m.

57:44But you can always hear me coming, too, in stores. You can never lose me. But my first silver bracelet was given to me when I was 16 by my mother and father. And so it says 9-2-99. And it says happy birthday. It says Fistina Lente, actually. Happy birthday in Latin. I think we talked about this in the first episode, and here we are back to 1999. Here we are, full circle. Full circle. So I have this bracelet, and I have reduced the number of silver bracelets over the years because I just couldn't hear it from Lauren anymore about the sound on the microphone. So I have reduced them, but I have this that I've literally been wearing since I was 16 and maybe almost never taken off.

58:23And I also have another one that my mother and father gave me when I was 21, another silver bracelet. So I guess those would be things that, you know, they, I've never, I've never taken them all. I can actually think of a lot for you now. Like there's a clock in Phoebe's dining room. Those are grandmothers and it's a beautiful antique clock, but the ticking sound is very loud. And I am really sensitive about repetitive noises. So I'll be in Phoebe's dining room and I'll just be like, please stop the clock. And she'll say, why don't you stop my grandmother's heart? You have to hand wind it. Yeah, that, that I like.

58:55But you have a number of sort of family pieces that you're particular about. And you have a bottle of your mother's perfume. Yeah, I have a bottle of my mother's Chanel perfume that I like to have things around. This is really interesting, but my mother's pocketbook, I have with me. We almost got in a fight when I visited you. Oh, you used my mother's perfume. Lauren came out of the bathroom and she smelled like Chanel No. 5. And I thought, what did you do? She had just started spritzing herself with Chanel No. 5 in the bathroom. It's just in the bathroom. If there was hand lotion in the bathroom, I would expect it was for me.

59:38And so I just thought, oh, I haven't smelled that perfume in a long time. I knew it was your mother's, but I assumed it was like, I thought you were trying to fold it into the tapestry of daily life. I didn't know it was a do-not-touch object. You were really mad at me. Yeah. So, yes, I think I feel like I do like to have things around me, kind of in plain sight. That's a good question, because I never thought of you as sentimental, but I think you are. Anything else? Yes, here we are. Oh, this is a nice one from Kim. She says she's been listening from the beginning and enjoyed every episode. She also has a blanket that was gifted to her that says, My Criminal Podcast Listening Blanket.

1:00:22And then she says, on to my question. Being that you work and travel together frequently and for so many years, have you managed to maintain a good relationship in regards to your friendship? Your bonus episodes show you have a comfortable relationship with each other that is admirable, and I'm curious on how you make that work. I would say an ability to not be polite in a way. And I think that stresses out some listeners sometimes, which I understand. It's not not polite, but it's just an ability to be very honest and to not worry about what the other person is going to necessarily think about that honesty.

1:01:10I don't know how to describe it, but it's a loud, loud relationship. Mm-hmm. Not yelling so much, but just very— Well, sometimes you're yelling. Well, sometimes you're yelling. But I think that there's a lack of politeness just in the sense of formality. You know, the formalness of what you're supposed to act this way, or you're supposed to, you know. And I think that— Yeah, like, I think we're, there's, like, some strange level of, like, comfort with conflict between the two of us that I don't have in other relationships in my life. But I'm not afraid of offending you. Yeah, is that trust? I don't know what that is.

1:02:02It's just that, like, I feel that no matter what happens, you know, even if we get in, like, a really bad disagreement, I could call you five minutes later to tell you, like, about some funny thing I saw on Instagram, and you would answer, and we would be fine. It's like just extremely compartmentalized into like 50 compartments or something. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, yes, we are the co-creators of Criminal and started a business together, and so we have this business partnership, but I don't think people maybe understand that Lauren and I have such a close relationship that has nothing to do with Criminal.

1:02:37You know, so we are working all the time together, But then we also are very much in a – we're not talking – there's a million other things that we're not talking about. But, you know, when we're traveling, there's a familiarity in the sense that I – we've said this before. Lauren and I can travel from Los Angeles to New York and not say one word to each other. And there's no obligation. You know, that's not because we're being jerks, but it's just you don't need to. You know, it's not – we're not trying to impress each other or entertain each other. And so you can just kind of just be, and it means that you can be together a lot, which we are, and you can travel together a lot and you can be in very stressful situations.

1:03:18But because you're not trying to constantly impress or entertain the other person, you can just turn off a little bit. Where I think if you don't have a very long or close relationship with someone, you feel like, how are they doing? Are they okay right now? You know, silence is awkward. What can we talk about? and I don't feel in any way that like I got it you know we don't we don't need to be entertaining each other I think and I think I've said this before but I also think that's because we weren't hired to make this show we decided to make this show so I think I'll speak for myself like I feel a great sense of pride and a great sense of like partnership with you in that way like we we we We built this thing.

1:04:02People have come to listen. They've stayed to listen. And I think that's like a specific type of bond that you don't have with like a typical co-worker or something or even a friend. Like we've had a real project together for more than 10 years now that we both care about maybe too much, you know? And, you know, it's not as though Lauren and I are only catching up when we're doing Criminal Plus. You know, we are talking to her. I asked someone on the team if they listen to Criminal Plus every week. And she said, why would I listen to Criminal Plus? I hear you and Lauren do this all day. I don't need to listen to Criminal Plus.

1:04:38I get it all the time. So, yes, we're not doing Criminal Plus or talking like this because we need to be making a show. It's just, you know, kind of life. All right, Phoebe. Jolene from South Dakota would like to know, what is your favorite non-essential invention? Not like computers or antibiotics. Just small inventions you would not want to live without. And she says for her it's Post-it notes and Kleenex. Oh, what a good question. Okay, two things just came into my head, and I don't know why. An eye mask and a box grater. Those are both good. Yeah, I don't know. Of all the things, those shot in my head.

1:05:21What about you, Lauren? I mean all that I could think of and this is kind of embarrassing is I have an aura ring one of those rings that like tracks technology but it's certainly not essential it's like absolutely useless but it gives me pleasure every single day and pushes me to go to sleep earlier so I get a kick out I've had it for more than two years and I get a kick out of it every day what do you think it says about you and me that I chose box grader and you chose aura ring in the centuries that we're living in. I think you would like the aura ring. I know it's really ugly. I don't want to wear a ring on my index finger, Lauren.

1:05:59You're supposed to wear it on your pointer finger. That's your index finger. Oh, yeah. I don't want to. You're supposed to. That's a look. It looks like it's a fashion. It's a real look. It's a strong look. It's ugly. It's embarrassing. When I see other people wearing them, I'm like, okay, right, right. I'm participating in this. But I do love it. And, you know, you get a little fever. It tells you, like, it really detects. And if you're exercising a lot, which you are, Phoebe, I think you would really enjoy keeping up with, like, how quickly your body recovers, how quickly your heart rate goes down.

1:06:29But I have my Apple Watch. Sure, sure. Kiera wants to know, what is your very first memory? Wow, that's so hard. I remember laying on my mother's stomach. She was pregnant with my brother, Quentin. Quentin was born in 80. So I was born September 2nd, 1983. Quentin was born August 6th, 1986. So how young would I be if she was pregnant with him? I was pretty young. And I remember laying on her stomach. She was pregnant. And she was talking to me. She was in bed. She was talking to me about wanting to name my brother Guy because she thought the name Guy Judge would be good. that's one of my first memories how about you oh gosh I don't know I do have a memory of like playing with kids on my street I lived in this cul-de-sac and I remember that you know there's like electrical transformer boxes yeah those green boxes I remember this girl this neighbor who was older than me saying smurfs live behind there and I I think that might be my earliest I I don't know how old I was.

1:07:43The memory that just haunts me is all the nights where I would have to go to bed where it was still light out. I can remember that too. Just me and Chloe in the bunk beds. It was still light out. And my mother closing the door and saying, time to go to bed. And me just being so confused. The ceiling fan in my room had a chain that would rub on the glass of the globe. But I liked the sound. It was a sort of soothing. So I can remember it's still being light out. I'm trying to go to sleep and the sound of the ceiling fan and like staring up at the popcorn ceiling. Okay, we have a voicemail. Hi, this is Jonna from Colorado here.

1:08:23I was at your Boulder Life show and was delighted to hear that you love to ski because I do too. I was wondering how you came to skiing, having grown up in Chicago. Where is your favorite place to go ski? and skiing figure into your 2025 adventure slash resiliency journey resolution? Well, you're right. It is hard to be a skier when you grow up in Chicago because the ski slopes of Wisconsin will only take you so far, which is where we would go mainly, but also we would go to Vermont. And I went to college in Vermont. So the funny thing is that I have not skied that many days of my life just because of where I grew up.

1:09:13But the skiing that I have done has been funny skiing, you know, in Wisconsin and then Vermont, which is, as anyone who skis knows, Vermont's a different beast than skiing in the West. So I've skied on a lot of ice before. You've skied in Maggie Valley, North Carolina. I watched you. I love to downhill ski. I really love to ski in Utah. And every year I go for three or four days all by myself and I go skiing all by myself. And I will say that it is usually the case that I am the first person on the chairlift and I'm the last person off. And there was a claim to fame a couple of years ago where I was number two at Deer Valley with the most miles skied in a day.

1:09:58There's this thing that kind of track you. And I was number two. I was close to being number one as having skied the most in one day. So I love it, and I am very excited about trying to ski in Canada. I'd like to ski in Canada a bit, and I'd also love to ski in the Alps, which sounds rather grand to go skiing in the Alps. But those are two places I haven't skied yet. And yes, I will be skiing in 2025. I cannot wait. I have my skis in the car. I brought them just crossing my fingers. We'd have some snow. I have some cross-country skis in the car. So I'm ready to go. Maureen is asking about the status of your plantar fasciitis.

1:10:40How do you pronounce it? Fasciitis. The whole name of it is horrible. You know, Maureen, it's still there. It is better, but it's still there. I'm not running as long right now, but I'm still running. And the thing that has helped me the most is when my calf is stretched and massaged, it helps the heel the most. The next question comes from Beth, and it's for me. As a fellow FSU alumna, what was Lauren's favorite part of being a student at FSU? Did you jump in Westcott on your first birthday there? That was a fountain. This is Florida State. Florida State University. There's sort of a famous fountain.

1:11:19well Beth uh I did not I never jumped in the fountain I never attended a football game I really I would say my first birthday I was probably uh crying I was I was really it took me like a full year to figure out what was going on at Florida State University I remember I got there and my I my dorm was Brian Hall and which is a smaller dorm and I was excited about that. It was also one of the newer dorms, so it was pretty nice. And then I remember I had made the decision that I wasn't going to rush for a sorority before I got to Florida State. I was very involved in theater, and that was what I was looking for.

1:12:00And then when it was time for everyone to go, I guess, to fraternity and sorority info sessions, I was the only person in my dorm. Every single person in my dorm was going to participate in Greek life, and that was just a real wake-up call. And I think it took me a little while to find my footing at Florida State, but I did eventually find it by taking creative writing classes, which was amazing. And also by becoming a DJ at the WVFS, the college radio station there, where I met amazing friends who I still talk to every single day. So I was a late bloomer at Florida State, but thank you for asking.

1:12:36Okay. I think we are going to have to not get to all of our questions today, Phoebe, but I will Here are two more from Angela in Cleveland. One, you guys discuss meat a lot. Would you ever consider becoming a vegetarian or a vegan? Angela, I have been both a vegetarian and a vegan. Absolutely, I would consider it. I am very aware of the problems with meat. I actually don't eat that much meat. I would say most of my meals are meatless. But I do have, you know, meat occasionally. But 100 % would be vegetarian or vegan. More so probably vegetarian than vegan. But I don't really care about dairy that much.

1:13:24So it wouldn't be hard for me to just be straight vegan. Lauren, you've been both as well. Yes. And I think that if I were, you know, living my best life, I would not participate in any dairy products or meat products. But I do, I just really like hamburgers. And so at this exact moment, I'm going to keep eating them. But I do, in the future, when I get everything organized, I would prefer not to. And Phoebe, Angela also wants to know if your running routine changes for the winter. Angela, it does not, actually. I'm wearing, I went running very early this morning. I'm still wearing my running clothes, which just means that shorts become longer pants.

1:14:07and I wear kind of not, I'm wearing kind of a long sleeve. Right now it's a Patagonia kind of thing with a hood that I wear running. I don't wear gloves and I don't wear a hat. I wear my baseball hat. That's wild that you don't wear gloves. I've never understood the gloves thing. Yeah, it's never been clear. I love running when it's cold. I would much rather run in the very cold than I would in the very hot. Okay, well, we didn't get to everyone, and I apologize. But I think we have to move on to three favorite things because then we have to go to an edit. We have to go back to work. Yeah. Thank you all so much for writing in.

1:14:48We didn't get to—there are so many more questions, but we'll do this again, and thank you. Phoebe, what have you been enjoying lately? Well, one thing I've been enjoying lately is drinking a gallon of water a day. I love this. What is 128 ounces? Is that a gallon or two gallons? It's unknowable. Okay. Well, I'm drinking 128 ounces of water a day, which sounds like I'm floating, but I'm not. It's actually not that much water, but I'm trying to drink a lot of water. It's the holiday season. There's a lot of, I feel like there's a lot of entertaining. There's a lot of food. There's just like a lot of excess and I'm countering it by 128 ounces of water a day.

1:15:25Okay. Something I've been enjoying is double blankets instead of, you know, in the winter, I think I pull out a down comforter. But instead of doing that this year, I've been doing two heavy blankets. And it's much cozier. Highly recommend. Simple thing. Anyone can do it. Double blankets. Something else I've been enjoying lately, and it is controversial for me to say because you've heard me talk about how this show drives me nuts, is Ted Lasso. Oh, my God. I'm shocked. Tell me about it so much. I've never seen it. I've never seen it. It always seems a little like, is it like religious or something?

1:15:59Well, yeah. I mean, no, it's not. But it's very pure and wholesome. And the jokes are corny. And the acting's over the top. But there's something that I found rather comforting about it now. That's what everyone says. People say it improves your day. So I'm just going to say, surprisingly, Ted Lasso. All right. Circling back to our 1999 theme, when I was in high school, I listened to a ton of jazz. And I would go to Barnes & Noble and buy the CDs and then drive around listening to them. A real theme of me spending time driving around. But this week I've been listening to this old Miles Davis record called Sorcerer.

1:16:40And I just want to put a plug in for this as an alt Christmas album. I think it's really doing something for me. It's kind of chaotic, but it's not too chaotic. And I think it's really a perfect record. The third thing I've been enjoying lately is a book I'm reading called The Bee Sting by Paul Murray. It came out last year. It's set in Ireland. And I picked it up in an airport. I'd finished a book and I needed another book and I picked it up. And I am really enjoying it. The Bee Sting, Paul Murray. Okay, my last thing is a simple, a great simple pleasure that I forgot about, which is making grilled cheese sandwiches.

1:17:21And I bought this bread, I think, Phoebe, because you had it. This like thin, thin slice of Dave's Killer bread. Did I get that from you? Yeah. And then if you want, you can make two grilled cheeses back to back with this bread. And last night I had grilled cheese and tomato soup, and I thought, this is ingenious. How did I ever forget about it? So that's my pitch for cozy late December dinner. Well, thank you all very much for listening this year and for listening today. It means a lot to us. Thank you for calling in. Please keep calling in. And hello at thisiscriminal.com and 833-822-7850. Lauren, I hope you have a really wonderful Christmas.

1:18:05Yes, you too. And Happy New Year. I'll be speaking to you in 2025. And in 20 to 25 seconds. And in 20 seconds. Okay, bye-bye. Bye, everyone.

1:18:35Thank you.

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