In short
Back-to-school feelings and how school can be work and pleasure—especially through literature and teaching—sparked by listener voicemails from teachers and students.
Guests/backgrounds
No formal guests; hosts are Alex Barish (editor/consulting editor), Alex (host), and Vincent (host), plus Nomi (host) and others. Listener voices include Jesse (high school English literature/dramatic arts teacher in Ontario, Canada), Lily (new teacher), Harry (poetry graduate student), and Harry’s friends/participants in the poetry discussion.
Key claims
Apathy can be fought by choosing texts with “shock and awe” or taboo-adjacent entry points; teachers must perform and manage emotions/authority; teaching intensity is shaped by the teacher’s relationship to time; emotional response and beauty open learning.
Notable examples
Brad Easton Ellis’ Lesson Zero; Miriam Taves’ A Complicated Kindness (Nomi Nickel); films Black Swan, The Holdovers, and The Class; Simpsons “Mr. Bergstrom”; poems “Theme for English B” (Langston Hughes), “Lull” (Ariana Reines), and “The Red Poppy” (Louise Glück).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VONostalgia for the First Day of School
0:30 to 4:28
Discussion about personal feelings and memories associated with the first day of school.
“Curious, what are your feelings about the first day of school?”
Voicemails from Listeners
4:28 to 5:59
Introduction to the theme of the episode inspired by listener voicemails about school and education.
“That experience was so valuable to me that I actually chose to become a teacher myself, and I now teach English literature and dramatic arts.”
Addressing Student Apathy
5:59 to 9:03
Discussion on a voicemail from a teacher seeking advice on combating student apathy in literature classes.
“Or is it a kind of sputtering flame that needs to be brought back to life?”
Teaching Strategies for Engagement
9:03 to 10:58
Exploration of teaching strategies to engage students in literature and encourage excitement about reading.
“Now we're getting into the more administrative aspects.”
Recommended Texts for High School
10:58 to 14:00
Discussion on specific texts and approaches to help re-engage high school students with literature.
“was talking about Odysseus is pictured as having like, like being covered with like a big leaf.”
The Challenges of Modern Teaching
14:00 to 15:58
Discussion about the difficulties teachers face in assigning literature.
“And so teachers were saying in this article I was reading, we can't even assign a book anymore because it doesn't get us where we need to be going.”
Exploring 'A Complicated Kindness'
15:58 to 17:56
An exploration of Miriam Toews' novel and its themes relevant to students.
“Critics at large from The New Yorker will be right back.”
Exploring 'A Complicated Kindness'
18:01 to 18:19
An exploration of Miriam Toews' novel and its themes relevant to students.
“Find BA Bake Club or wherever you get your podcasts.”
Transitioning from Student to Teacher
19:07 to 22:18
Conversations about the surprising dynamics of becoming a teacher.
“Now, some of us are also teachers or have been in the past, Nomi and Vincent specifically.”
Media Depicting Teaching Experiences
22:18 to 23:58
Discussion of media that reflects the realities of teaching.
“But the clock, relationship to the clock, is, to me, the prime difference.”
Show all 20 chapters
The Class: A Teaching Narrative
23:58 to 28:00
Exploration of the film 'The Class' and its portrayal of the teaching experience.
“that there is like a multiplicity of selves.”
Exploring a Unique Teaching Movie
28:00 to 29:20
Discussion on a film featuring amateur actors and the challenges faced by a teacher and students.
“And it stars this non-actor, François Begodeau, who wrote the novel that the book is based on himself as a teacher.”
Lisa Simpson and Mr. Bergstrom
29:20 to 31:39
A deep dive into a Simpsons episode that illustrates the impact of a substitute teacher on a student's life.
“Lisa Simpson, you are probably familiar.”
The Influence of Good Teachers
31:39 to 32:34
Reflecting on how teachers can shape students' identities and aspirations through meaningful connections.
“when you feel like you don't know who you are, where you're going.”
Transference in Teacher-Student Relationships
32:34 to 33:01
Discussion on psychological concepts of transference and countertransference in educational settings.
“I thought that was a really great piece because I think it's a true observation.”
Engaging with Poetry
33:56 to 36:46
A listener's question prompts a discussion on how to introduce poetry to skeptics, with personal anecdotes and poem readings.
“And what is it going to mean for the final two years of Donald Trump's disruptive presidency?”
Choosing the Right Poem
36:46 to 40:00
Discussion about selecting impactful poems for readers who are hesitant about poetry, including personal favorites.
“I went to school there, then Durham, then here to this college on the hill above Harlem.”
Modern Poetry and Personal Reflection
40:00 to 42:05
Exploration of contemporary poets and how their work resonates with personal experiences and societal themes.
“Of course, I gravitate towards the type of poetry that, you know, in this example that Vincent just read, which is talky, you know, juicy with details.”
Exploring Poetry and Emotion
42:05 to 45:32
The discussion centers around the significance of poetry, particularly works by Sharon Olds and Louise Glück, and their emotional impact.
“And I would, Harry, I would recommend, you know, I mean, you might very well be very familiar with Ariane's work.”
Political Scene Podcast Promotion
47:33 to 48:43
Introduction to the Washington Roundtable podcast discussing political insights leading up to elections.
“And what is it going to mean for the final two years of Donald Trump's disruptive presidency?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Vinson Cunningham:Do you hear that? That sound, right? That means that summer's officially here. It means that grown adults just sprint into the street for a frozen dessert shaped like a cartoon. But this summer, Mint Mobile has a better treat. Every plan, including unlimited, is$15 a month. And unlike ice cream, it won't drip down your wrist or look nothing like the picture. Does anyone have any cash? Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy.
0:29Vinson Cunningham:C-Terms.
0:59Vinson Cunningham:Curious, what are your feelings about the first day of school?
1:02Alexandra Schwartz:I love the first day of school.
1:04Vinson Cunningham:Really? Always?
1:05Alexandra Schwartz:Always have, yeah. My mother, shout out to my mother, obsessed with two things over everything, school and the fall. First through fourth grade I did in Chicago when we lived there for a little bit. And I remember being on the L train and her looking down at these leaves and being like, yeah, that's first day of school weather. And I always think about that.
1:28Vinson Cunningham:I love that.
1:28Alexandra Schwartz:Or whenever, like, when it really there's a snap, I'm like, first day of school weather.
1:32Vinson Cunningham:So great. Yeah. Alex. Alex? Well, I'm just remembering, I also like the first day of school and my birthday is early September, so it has a new year for me, a new year for school feeling. Trying to think of specifics, I do remember starting middle school, which at the time was, the start of middle school was seventh grade, which now would seem very late. And, you know, what to wear, what to wear. And I remember one girl having said, if it's above 72 degrees, everyone can wear shorts. and just thinking. And that was gospel suddenly. I mean, not even. I just thought, what is happening?
2:05Naomi Fry:The thing about like someone saying, oh, everybody should wear X or Y or like, oh, I heard she's going to wear this or that and like, isn't that stupid? You know, that thing like strikes fear in my heart. Oh, no. I know. Maybe starting around fourth grade. I feel like the first, say, three years of schooling I was probably excited in a way that wasn't kind of nervous but I think kind of mid-elementary school it was mostly kind of like dread and worry I mean listen I was really in many ways I loved school especially when it came to obviously college and then like I love like learning you know what I mean?
2:50Naomi Fry:I was excited I like would look at the syllabi in advance and be like what are the books? you know when it was stuff that I could choose Like, I was like, oh, this is, you know, this is amazing.
3:02Alexandra Schwartz:But the first day of school is so much more than that. You know, it's like, it's social. It's this, who am I going to be this year?
3:10Naomi Fry:Who am I going to sit with?
3:11Alexandra Schwartz:Who am I going to be around?
3:13Naomi Fry:And I was afraid of math. Well, that's a whole other ballgame.
3:16Alexandra Schwartz:Was that part of your general anxiety about the fear?
3:19Naomi Fry:I think so, yeah. I was like, oh, shit, like.
3:22Alexandra Schwartz:I'm still afraid of math.
3:23Naomi Fry:No, yeah, I know, but now I don't have to do math. But I was afraid of it.
3:28Vinson Cunningham:So on that note, today our episode is all about the work and the pleasure of school. And we should say it is inspired by you, our listeners. In recent weeks, we've gotten a number of voicemails from teachers and also from students, which are all themed around school and education in some way or another. And that got us excited about doing an episode all about the back-to-school experience. So we're focusing on three voicemails. We're going to hear from a high school teacher who is desperate to combat apathy in her students. We're going to hear from a poetry student who wants help explaining to his friends why poetry is great.
4:03Vinson Cunningham:And from a brand new teacher just starting out who's looking for media that gets at the high highs and below lows of a teaching career. So that's today on Critics at Large, that back-to-school feeling.
4:18Vinson Cunningham:Okay, let's start right in. Here we go. Notebooks out. Pens up. Let's do it. Like I said, we've got three voicemails, and here's the first one from Jesse in Ontario, Canada. Thinson, Nomi, Alex, what I love most about Critics at Large is how it reminds me of my experience as a university student, where I would get together with my peers and engage in rich, critical discussions about the texts we were reading for class and getting excited to share our insights with each other. That experience was so valuable to me that I actually chose to become a teacher myself, and I now teach English literature and dramatic arts.
5:01Vinson Cunningham:And here's where I need your help.
5:04Naomi Fry:Over the past five years, I've noticed the apathy in my Gen Z students is rampant, and nothing seems to excite them anymore.
5:15Vinson Cunningham:So I would like some recommendations for texts that I can use with my high school students who are in grades 9 to 12.
5:24Naomi Fry:That's going to help rid them of their apathy and make them feel as excited and passionate about literature as I always felt. I'm counting on you guys.
5:37Vinson Cunningham:Damn, stakes are already very high.
5:39Naomi Fry:They're so high. Stakes are high. Stakes are high.
5:42Alexandra Schwartz:Great delivery, Jessie. I loved everything about it.
5:45Vinson Cunningham:Jesse, we're behind you. I feel sad, Jesse. I feel sad hearing this. I know, I know. I just feel like apathy in high school is so hard because it makes me wonder, has it always been this way? Are we trying to find something that ignites the passion of reading that has never been lit before? Or is it a kind of sputtering flame that needs to be brought back to life? Can you say more about this, Alex? Do you mean— Well, I just mean if someone—you know, I'm just thinking about, like, the thing that is so exciting about reading, I think, or was for me at that age, let's say, in high school, was just the sense of, like, what, I get to do this?
6:26Vinson Cunningham:I get to, first of all, like, learn whatever I want or, like, read any taboo thing I want. That was a huge part of the excitement. And so if the attitude is totally the opposite, then I'm more likely to recommend something that's a little bit of like an easier access.
6:41Naomi Fry:I think, Alex, and this might be a little bit of a cheap trick, what you said about taboo might be an entry point because the Internet is open to our youngsters to view any number of horrific and ultra and, you know, kind of like forbidden texts and pictures and elements. You know, it's like, it's not like you need literature for that. And yet, I think sometimes young people might be surprised that literature might also deal with things that aren't just like boring or rote or like buttoned up or, you know, what they imagine like school might give them. You know, I never taught high school, so I don't have that particular experience that you do, Jesse, but I did teach young people.
7:42Naomi Fry:It might be, it's like only a year between 12th grade and, you know, freshman year of college. And I definitely had a lot of apathetic students. What I did when I was a teacher is I assigned Brad Easton Ellis' Lesson Zero, which is his debut novel from 1985, which is about young people. it's about basically 18 year olds in the 80s in los angeles who are doing very bad things you know they're doing a lot of drugs there's a lot of kind of like ambiguous sex um and many of the students who i assigned this book to they were surprised that this is like you know students who weren't readers were like oh this is i finished this in two hours you know they were like they're like i read a book, you know, kind of that sort of thing.
8:32Naomi Fry:I think kind of like opening the door to kids who might be like, books, you know, I don't want to read. I'm not interested in learning about what this means. A bit of a trick, but I think a useful one.
8:47Vinson Cunningham:Shock them. I'm also a little bit worried that Jesse would get fired for signing it in high school, but maybe not. Maybe for the 12th Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how progressive your school is.
8:58Alexandra Schwartz:It might need to be an elective, but still. An elective.
9:01Vinson Cunningham:Love that.
9:01Alexandra Schwartz:You know?
9:02Vinson Cunningham:Also, yeah, create an elective. Create some allure.
9:04Alexandra Schwartz:Yeah.
Read the full transcript
9:05Vinson Cunningham:Now we're getting into the more administrative aspects. Yes.
9:08Naomi Fry:And yes, I should say, again, as I said, I never taught high school. I taught freshman English composition. But I like that it's a shock and awe strategy. It's a shock and awe strategy. And students were consistently kind of like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. You shocked in autumn. That was kind of satisfying to be like, oh, yeah, you know. Yeah. Love that.
9:31Vinson Cunningham:Vincent, do you have anything?
9:32Alexandra Schwartz:Yeah. You know, it's I do have ideas about content, but like just about teaching. You know, you have to be the one out on the ledge and teaching is also an education. It's an education in many things. You know, here's some subject matter. Here's what a poem is like. Here's how you read a novel, et cetera. But it's also an education in the emotions and in the affections. It's like, what does it mean to be excited about something? And you have to be sometimes the dork, sometimes the whatever, to get out there. Absolutely. To sort of establish a new frontier of you are allowed to be this excited about this kind of thing.
10:08Alexandra Schwartz:We'll talk more about this across the episode, I'm sure, but teaching is so much a kind of performance, at least in my very limited experience of doing it.
10:14Naomi Fry:Not that limited, Vincent. Yeah, but I'm like— I feel like you have an extensive teaching.
10:18Alexandra Schwartz:Teaching one college class a week is very different than being somebody's high school English teacher. And I want to be very respectful of that difference. Being somebody who's high school English teacher is like, it's like Daniel Day-Lewis. I mean, it's method. The people that did that for me, I view with such, you know, whatever. I've talked about my English teachers on this podcast before. That said, the things that I enjoyed the most when I was around that age were texts that needed a teacher precisely for this reason, right? texts that could be opened up. I remember reading the Odyssey and my teacher at the time was talking about Odysseus is pictured as having like, like being covered with like a big leaf.
11:06Alexandra Schwartz:She's like, you know, you know what needs a big leaf. She's like doing all this like blue talk, you know, it was like a form of standup comedy. I was like, wait, oh, we could talk about this. She was working blue. She was working blue. And I was like, this is the, you know, I was just like that, those moments of surprise.
11:22Naomi Fry:I mean, that's kind of similar to that. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, oh, you can, books are about sex? Yeah, like less than, exactly. Books are about drugs?
11:29Alexandra Schwartz:Exactly. Yeah. The other, I mean, another text that I read, I mean, a little bit before high school, but it's definitely like a high school level text was Richard Wright's Black Boy. And I remember being on the way to school and the older kids being like, wait till you get to the page where he like does this, or you know, he's talking about Dixon there, you know. Totally. All this stuff and just the like, oh, man, I'm going to there's going to be an experience in the classroom. Those were my favorite those favorite moments, because even if you are a nervous classroom participant, because, you know, every teacher knows there's a difference between somebody who's apathetic and someone who just doesn't know how to do the thing.
12:07Alexandra Schwartz:And you're teaching them how to do the thing, too. Like, you could jump in here, man. Get in. Yeah. You know, so texts that coax that facility out were always the best to me. And also admitting what you find beautiful. Like, you have to have something in there that you can say and show them in the moment. Like, man, that's beautiful. And whether they agree or not, just to be like, this is also a place to frankly admit your, like, loves is, I think, something that people don't quickly forget, regardless of their response in the moment.
12:38Vinson Cunningham:I think this is glorious.
12:39Alexandra Schwartz:Yeah. Also, I mean, could you just teach the Great Gatsby, goddamn it?
12:44Vinson Cunningham:Yeah.
12:44Alexandra Schwartz:Can you teach the best book?
12:45Vinson Cunningham:Best book ever. It's a great book for teaching.
12:47Alexandra Schwartz:It's so good.
12:48Vinson Cunningham:Yeah, 10th grade, perfect for 10th grade.
12:50Alexandra Schwartz:Yeah.
12:50Vinson Cunningham:Yeah, just go in there in 10th grade.
12:52Alexandra Schwartz:It's got symbols. It's got all the things we want to learn how to do. How about you?
12:55Vinson Cunningham:Do you think it hits in Canada? That's one question I'm having is about Canada.
12:59Alexandra Schwartz:They're in a moment where they need to understand Americans. No better time.
13:03Vinson Cunningham:I'm so sorry about that. So true. Yeah, I love everything you guys are saying because I think this is like a good formula for the reengagement. A little bit of illicit substances, a little bit of teacher's passion coming in and getting everybody worked up. Just don't get fired. Just don't get fired. Yeah, walk that line. Walk that line. Yeah, you know, I was thinking, like, I think a challenge is really good. Because I know there's been a kind of conventional wisdom maybe that you want to make things easy to make things appealing to someone who's not so inclined to read. We're being hit all the time with there's a crisis in reading articles, which are really freaking me out.
13:49Vinson Cunningham:Like by all reports, reading and literacy is just totally plummeting. I was just reading one about the New York City school system where analyzing small passages of text has been prioritized in testing over a greater comprehension. And so teachers were saying in this article I was reading, we can't even assign a book anymore because it doesn't get us where we need to be going. And it's like utterly depressing. So I was thinking back to what, like you, Vincent, worked for me as a student. One that's a little bit more of a kind of user-friendly, which I don't think needs to be necessarily extensively poured over in heavy discussion, but is just a wonderful book to read and is by a Canadian treasure, is the book A Complicated Kindness by Miriam Taves, by Canada's own Miriam Taves, amazing writer.
14:41Vinson Cunningham:And this is a book she wrote in 2004. It's a coming-of-age novel. It's actually about a character named Nomi, if you can believe it. Nomi? Nomi Nickel. Pronounced as such? It's not spelled with the A. It's just N-O-M-I. And she's 16 and she lives in a tiny Mennonite town in Manitoba. And she is going through a lot of shit. She is, there's a lot of anger and distress in her life about her family situation. She has an older sister who suddenly has just disappeared. It's not clear what's happened. She's obviously living in a very repressive religious environment because she's part of a Mennonite community.
15:19Vinson Cunningham:Miriam Taves is just one of the realist writers for me. She can be so, she is so funny, such a funny writer. but she writes about such serious stuff. And, of course, high school students are very good at detecting bullshit. This is a writer, like, totally without bullshit, who's not writing to pander or condescend, but is actually re-inhabiting the experience of being this age in this very particular setting. But it's a very satisfying novel for that reason. I could kind of see that as a... Door opener. Yeah, door opener. Just get it assigned. Get it assigned and go for it.
15:53Vinson Cunningham:In a minute, some texts that get at what being a teacher is really like. Critics at large from The New Yorker will be right back.
16:19Vinson Cunningham:Unlimited is$15 a month. And unlike ice cream, it won't drip down your wrist or look nothing like the picture. Does anyone have any cash? Give it a try at midmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms.
16:38Alexandra Schwartz:Hi, my name is Zach Barron. I'm the Senior Special Projects Editor at GQ. And I am pleased to introduce One More Question, GQ's new weekly interview show. Over the years in the magazine, I've written dozens of cover stories and traveled the world to talk to and write about some of the most interesting people in the GQ universe. From Martin Scorsese to George Clooney and Brad Pitt to Outcast Andre 3000. And now I'll be doing it weekly. I'm going to sit down with some of the most interesting people in the world and figure out what makes them, well, them. New episodes of One More Question will be available each week wherever you get your podcasts
17:13Vinson Cunningham:or on YouTube if seeing people in chairs is more your thing.
17:23Vinson Cunningham:Are you ready to push your baking skills? This month at Bon Appetit Bake Club, we are making glazed apple pie fritters. I'm Shilpoz Kokovic. And I'm Jessie Sepchak. And we're senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appetit and the hosts of BA's Bake Club podcast. Bake Club is Bon Appetit's community of confident, curious bakers. Every month, we publish a recipe on BonAppetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll go bake and send us any questions you have. And we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. And if you want to master deep frying, this is your chance.
17:56Vinson Cunningham:Head to BA.com or our sub stack and come and bake along with us. Join us the first Tuesday of every month as we debrief about our latest bake. Find BA Bake Club or wherever you get your podcasts. Happy baking!
18:18Alexandra Schwartz:Before we get back to the conversation, listeners, it's that time again. We're working on another I Need a Critic episode. We've come to really love this series because it gives us a chance to hear from you.
18:31Vinson Cunningham:Oh, yeah, you all know the drill at this point. But for anyone who doesn't, don't fear. All you have to do is record a voice memo on your phone with a specific cultural question that we can help you with. Maybe you're looking for the perfect book to read after you just had a baby and you have no attention span or time. Maybe you want to know whether book clubs are actually helpful. Maybe you want an example in media, the movies, what have you, of an actually happy relationship.
18:56Naomi Fry:I mean, who can tell really what you come up with? And we can't wait to find out. You've got questions. We've got answers. Hit us up. Send your voice memos, as always, to themailatnewyorker.com with the subject line, Critics. And now, back to the episode.
19:19Vinson Cunningham:We were all students. Now, some of us are also teachers or have been in the past, Nomi and Vincent specifically. I actually would love to teach. Someone asked me to teach. I'm just throwing that out there. Did any— Aside from that personal plea— You'd be a great teacher. Sure, you'd be a great teacher. I'm wondering for you guys, did anything surprise you about making the switch from student to teacher?
19:38Naomi Fry:It's hard for me to be in charge. And like boundaries are hard for me, like telling people what to do is hard for me. I always used to be like, if you don't mind, could you also read this, you know, this other? But I will tell you this. if I sensed that someone wasn't respectful of my authority, no matter how loosely held, then I would, like, get pissed. Yeah, like, don't fuck with me.
20:13Vinson Cunningham:So you were able to reach a no more Mr. Nice Guy place? Yes, if pushed. If pushed? If pushed. Love knowing that. Not surprised, but delighted. to hear that about Nomi Fry. Vincent, I've heard raves about your teaching.
20:30Alexandra Schwartz:Have you?
20:30Vinson Cunningham:Yes.
20:32Alexandra Schwartz:That's nice. Thank you. It's very hard to do. What Nomi said is profound. As Nomi likes to say, we do need a strong leader. Absolutely. In the classroom, authority is a gift to know, like, I'm saying what I want you to do and how I want you to do it, and I'm being very clear about that. Having control, I think that's the thing that took the longest for me to understand about this activity. so that is really really good the other thing is connected which is like you never know as a student how well the teacher wants you to do and how nervous they are about themselves like how well they want to do you think that you're there being like you know i better have something to say that the teacher feels that's so much worse and they're the and to your point they're the one in charge so So nothing, if they're not the prime mover, it can just be so nerve-wracking.
21:24Alexandra Schwartz:Your teacher is often very, like, afraid. And therefore—
21:28Naomi Fry:I totally, yeah. It's so true.
21:31Alexandra Schwartz:And because of nervousness, what happens with nervousness, whether you're on stage or in a classroom, is that the prime difference, experientially, like in the classroom, is relationship to time. Time is bending, man. It's a roller coaster. The first five minutes feel like three hours. And you're like, I cannot believe I'm going to have to just leave the classroom because I did all my stuff. You're so nervous. Ten minutes in. And then if it's working, you know, please, God, minute 15, something happens fast. And then by the end, you didn't say all the stuff you wanted to say. So, I mean, just the relationship to minute by minute the clock is so different.
22:13Alexandra Schwartz:And I've done everything. I've stood in front of the clock so I can't see it. I've stood across from it so I can see it every second. I've tried everything. But the clock, relationship to the clock, is, to me, the prime difference. I leave some seminar, and I'm like, I was in there all day. It's like a boxing match. So, you know, treat your teachers well, man. They're going through stuff up there.
22:37Vinson Cunningham:Yeah. All right, let's move on to our next question, which is definitely in conversation with what we're talking about. This is Lily. Hi, critics. I absolutely love the show. I listen every week. And my question for you guys is about teaching. I have recently become a teacher and it is really amazing, but super full on, very stressful. And it seems that a lot of people in my life don't really understand it. And I was wondering if there are any bits of media, especially books or movies that depict the feeling of being a teacher, like the highs and lows, how intense it can be, like those kinds of feelings.
23:21Vinson Cunningham:I would love something that I can go to when I'm feeling bogged down, something I can relate to. That would be really good. So thank you.
23:31Alexandra Schwartz:Thank you.
23:32Naomi Fry:Thank you, Lily.
23:33Alexandra Schwartz:And congratulations on starting a new chapter in your life. Absolutely. Yeah. I swear to God, I thought about this for so long and then I was like my real answer is the Natalie Portman film Black Swan wait you mean
23:47Naomi Fry:with the Frenchman she's a ballerina yes no but I mean yeah the Vincent Castile character no I mean
23:54Alexandra Schwartz:Natalie Portman like the performance it's about the psychodrama of performance and the and admitting that there is like a multiplicity of selves. And it's like, who moment to moment must I be? What a take.
24:10Naomi Fry:Wow. What a take. Now I've heard it all.
24:13Alexandra Schwartz:That was my real answer. Love that movie, by the way. A lighter answer is a recent movie, which I really like. And I think it's silly, but also very heartwarming and has one of my favorite actors in it because he's also very silly and very heartwarming. It's Paul Giamatti in The Holdovers.
24:30Vinson Cunningham:Oh, yeah, The Holdovers. That's right. I still haven't watched that.
24:33Alexandra Schwartz:It's about this teacher who is sort of an outcast even among the teaching ranks, but also kind of a figure of fun and teasing by the students. He doesn't smell good. He doesn't look good. We come to know that he was also a student at the school. And now there are the holdovers. There's a couple of kids and him who have nowhere to go on Christmas break for various reasons. And what can I say? it warms the heart. And what it teaches you is that, and this is, you know, this is intrinsic in so many theories of teaching. If you read John Dewey's Democracy in Education, it's all about how teaching is, it rests upon, it depends upon an emotional response first.
25:19Alexandra Schwartz:This is why we talk about beauty. You know, you have to strike an emotional chord and then something opens up. And this movie is kind of like about how much care and emotion and, you know, frankly, love, has to go into teaching, otherwise you're not doing it. And Paul Giamatti learns that, the students learn that. It's a very sweet movie. And we've been being like, after we watched it, we were like, oh, I'm going to watch this every Christmas. It's like in the Christmas. Oh, wow. It's in the Christmas rotation. And it's also a very sweet movie about teaching.
25:49Vinson Cunningham:That's such a good call. I completely forgot about the holdovers, not in general, but in this category. That's so true. Yeah, there's this kind of, Paul Giamatti is playing such a role that he's just grown into. He's the curmudgeon. Yeah, you don't have to like me, but you're going to respect me. And of course, no one does either. No one does, yeah. Finding the human in himself and the boys finding the human in him is part of the whole transformation. That's a great answer. Also, Black Swan is just incredible. Vincent says so much about you. The Hall of Mirrors.
26:19Naomi Fry:And how you view this vocation. I know, because that is melodrama. I'm a little bit worried. I know, that is really...
26:28Alexandra Schwartz:It is hard. It is a hard thing to do, man.
26:31Naomi Fry:And it's a performance. And, you know.
26:33Vinson Cunningham:It's a lot. And that is what being a teacher is all about.
26:36Alexandra Schwartz:That's what teaching is about.
26:37Vinson Cunningham:Yeah, it might drive you to the very brink of sanity and then push you over it is what I'm getting from that pick.
26:42Alexandra Schwartz:Paranoia and mangled toes. That's teaching.
26:45Vinson Cunningham:I love this question because it really made me think that this must be one of the really underrepresented areas. Like, basically, everybody goes to school. Obviously, many fewer people are teachers. and there are so many works, campus novels and so on about the experience of being a student. But I really feel that there's a dearth about the experience of teaching. There's a dearth, I say. Not a dearth. It's a hideous dearth and someone needs to get on it. So the thing that popped into my head is this movie, The Class, from 2008. I haven't seen it in a little while.
27:25Naomi Fry:Is it the French movie?
27:25Vinson Cunningham:It's a French movie.
27:26Naomi Fry:I remember that movie. You remember this movie? I do. It was in film form, I believe.
27:30Vinson Cunningham:Yeah, it won the Palme d 'Or. It's definitely a film form movie. But it's about exactly what you want, Lily. It's about the high highs and the low lows. It's a fictional movie about a teacher in Paris at an inner city school, very diverse class, full of what we would call underprivileged kids, who is teaching them and going through the triumph and the big struggle of getting this class to cohere and getting them to learn stuff. And it was directed by Laurent Canté. And it stars this non-actor, François Begodeau, who wrote the novel that the book is based on himself as a teacher. And basically everyone in the cast are amateurs.
28:11Vinson Cunningham:And the standouts are—actually, Begodeau is really great as the main teacher. But the cast is all amateur kids, high school kids. And they're great too. And the thing that I think makes this an interesting movie is, of course, there have been a number of kind of like white savior-esque teaching texts. What is interesting about this movie is there are a lot of challenges that both sides undergo, that the students undergo, but also the teacher undergoes. And there are mistakes he makes, like bad ones as well, offensive ones, and painful ones. And so it's about grappling with that. And obviously also about grappling with difference.
28:49Vinson Cunningham:Like, how do you cohere? How do you cohere as a unit, as a class, which is kind of this like outside the family, maybe the unit, you know, the kind of foundational unit being a class, of course, one that's going to dissolve because next year you'll be in a different class or whatever it might be. Yeah, how do you get people to care and how do you understand them and admit that you're wrong? So definitely if intensity is what you're looking for, I think this is a good choice. Okay.
29:19Naomi Fry:One of my favorite Simpsons episodes is when Lisa meets the substitute teacher, Mr. Bergstrom. Ooh, tell us more. You don't remember this at all? I don't. Okay. I have a clip. I'm so sorry. Lisa Simpson, you are probably familiar. She's a smart kid, both in her family and in school, too. She's like the nerd, right? And no one understands her. She wants to learn. She wants to break free of the confines of her family and of her situation. But kind of she has no interlocutor for that because teachers, parents, peers, no one is answering her call for for kind of like love of culture and love of learning.
30:06Naomi Fry:And one day, a substitute teacher voiced by Dustin Hoffman enters the class.
30:16Vinson Cunningham:So a cowboy has just entered and is now shooting at the teacher. Well, how about this? Everybody, I want to see two eyes on every single person staring right at me right now. There are three things wrong with my costume. Anybody names those three things will get my hat.
30:31Alexandra Schwartz:I believe I know the answer.
30:33Vinson Cunningham:Well, what's your name?
30:35Alexandra Schwartz:Lisa Simpson.
30:36Vinson Cunningham:Well, go ahead, Miss Simpson.
30:37Naomi Fry:Um, one, your belt buckle says State of Texas, but Texas wasn't a state until 1845. Very good. Two, the revolver wasn't invented until 1835. That's excellent. Three, you seem to be of the Jewish faith. Are you sure I'm Jewish? Or Italian. I'm Jewish. And there weren't any Jewish cowboys. Very good. That's excellent.
30:55Vinson Cunningham:And I'm also wearing a digital watch, but I'll accept that. Here you go, little lady. And for the record, there were a few Jewish cowboys, ladies and gentlemen, big guys who were great shots and spent money freely. I'm Mr. Bergstrom. Feel free to make fun of my name if you want. Two suggestions are Mr. Nerdstrom and Mr. Boogerstrom.
31:12Naomi Fry:And he's in. So he's so in and it's just the most. So it develops, you know, obviously Lisa becomes his favorite student. She is like totally in love with him. He knows things that she never believed an adult can know. And then he has to leave because he has to like go teach elsewhere. And she runs after his train and he gives her a piece of paper that says you are Lisa Simpson. just like look at that piece of paper when you feel like you don't know who you are, where you're going. And he gives her, the teacher gives her the gift of believing there's a life outside of her current circumstances.
31:55Naomi Fry:And it's one of the most beautiful examples of kind of what a teacher can, what a good teacher can do when they come into your life. Glorious.
32:06Alexandra Schwartz:That's very beautiful. It also reminds me of an essay that maybe we should shout out on this episode, which is by our colleague Marvay Emre. That's called Are You My Mother? Oh, I haven't read that. And it's about sort of applying the matrix of transference and countertransference, the psychological concepts, to the classroom. That like eros and love and mutual interest is part of the dynamics of a classroom and that a teacher is always managing those relationships in the way that Mr. Bergstrom is sort of using his charisma and appeal to kind of relate to Lisa Simpson. I thought that was a really great piece because I think it's a true observation.
32:43Vinson Cunningham:You know, one further thing occurs to me, which is just, Lily, I don't know if you know Dead Poets Society. Do you know it? Watch it. I mean, that is the classic. Watch it.
32:52Naomi Fry:It's like a charismatic teacher who changes the lives of his students.
32:56Vinson Cunningham:We're trying to think out of the box. Go right to the box, maybe.
32:59Naomi Fry:Yeah, maybe you need to go to start in the box.
33:01Vinson Cunningham:Start in the box. Yeah.
33:05Vinson Cunningham:We've heard from teachers. In a minute, a student who's trying to prove to his friends that poetry is actually good. Critics at large from The New Yorker will be right back.
33:24Vinson Cunningham:Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile with your summer price forecast. Now, unfortunately, we're seeing rising costs across the country with possibility that big wireless hates you 100%. Now, over here at Mint Mobile, we're seeing sunny skies and dropping prices. Every plan to just$15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms.
33:55Naomi Fry:Who is going to win control of Congress this November? And what is it going to mean for the final two years of Donald Trump's disruptive presidency? I'm Susan Glasser. I'm Jane Mayer.
34:06Vinson Cunningham:And I'm Evan Osnos. We host the Washington Roundtable on the New Yorker's Political Scene podcast.
34:12Naomi Fry:We're following what key races could tip the balance of power in Washington this fall.
34:17Vinson Cunningham:We're also going to go deep on the influence of dark money and tech billionaires. So join us in the run-up to the midterms in 2026. Subscribe to The Political Scene wherever you get your podcasts.
34:32Vinson Cunningham:Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, Global Fashion News and Features Director at Vogue and co-host of the Run-Through podcast. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all-access pass into the world of Vogue. On Tuesdays, join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein, Rachel Scott, and Simone Belotti. On Thursdays, join Chloe Mao, head of editorial content at Vogue US, and Choma Nadi, British Vogue's head of editorial content, as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margot Robbie. Listen and watch the run-through with Vogue wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel.
35:18Vinson Cunningham:Okay, moving on to our final listener. Hi, critics. This is Harry Colling from Providence, Rhode Island. I'm a big fan of the show. I'm a graduate student and I study poetry. And when I tell people that, a response I often get is, I don't like poetry. And I found that the best way to counter that response, or at least to help explain to people why I enjoy poetry is to just read them a poem. So I am asking all of you to pick the poem that you think would best explain to someone who doesn't like poetry why it's worthwhile and then to read it to us.
36:06Alexandra Schwartz:This is a great question. And you know, it's hard to know what poem will do this for any given listener or student, but I guess I could tell you just the poem that did it for me. It's certainly my favorite, my first favorite poem, if that makes sense. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but maybe for each of us, we can just kind of read the opening lines to our poems. So for me, here goes Theme for English Bee by Langston Hughes. The instructor said, go home and write a page tonight and let that page come out of you. Then it will be true. I wonder if it's that simple. I am 22, colored, born in Winston-Salem.
36:48Alexandra Schwartz:I went to school there, then Durham, then here to this college on the hill above Harlem. I am the only colored student in my class. The steps from the hill lead down into Harlem through a park. Then I cross St. Nicholas, 8th Avenue, 7th. And I come to the Y, the Harlem branch Y, where I take the elevator up to my room, sit down, and write this page. It's not easy to know what is true for you or me at 22 my age, but I guess I'm what I feel and see and hear. Harlem, I hear you. Hear you, hear me. We too, you, me, talk on this page. The poem goes on to sort of continue this correspondence almost between the speaker of the poem and his teacher.
37:37Alexandra Schwartz:And it's a great poem, and what I love especially about it even more now than I did back then when I was a kid when I first read it, is that it's about how a prompt, write this, the necessity of writing creates a place, and this is what I think poetry deeply is, it presents itself as monologue, but really it's a place where through imagination or through rhythms that you pick up on the street or whatever, conversations can happen. Langston Hughes, he's a great poet, whatever, but it's not like all of his poems are my favorites, But that one is just like, I don't know. I went to school in Harlem when I was a kid, so it was just like someone describing streets that I'd been on.
38:17Alexandra Schwartz:I don't know, just knowing that a form can hold experiences that are not yours but resemble yours in such a way that like, oh yeah, this guy's dead and I'm still meeting him. The voice is so clear and so true. I think that's, you know, that's what it's all about.
38:35Vinson Cunningham:That was gorgeous. You know, one thing that I love about that choice, Vincent, is how discursive it is and how it is just so much about the voice and a really natural sounding voice. As if, as you just said, as if the voice of the poet is right there with us in the room. And I do think that sometimes when people say blanket things like, I don't like poetry, they're thinking of poetry perhaps as a really removed form or a really abstracted form or a really rigid form, like something that can't accommodate a more intense or vibrant experience. And so you just chose the perfect poem to blow all of those assumptions up.
39:15Vinson Cunningham:And Harry, I think your friends who don't like poetry should listen to that reading. Nomi. I mean, guys, you know me.
39:24Naomi Fry:I don't really like poetry.
39:30Naomi Fry:Damn. That's so good. No, no, no, no. Obsessed. But, but, but. Obsessed with our little class here.
39:35Alexandra Schwartz:We're all here, you know.
39:37Naomi Fry:But of course, of course, that's not correct. Of course, now that I, you know, listen to this Langston Hughes poem, I'm like, of course I like that, you know, but it's just, I mean, poetry can be removed and can be, you know what I mean? There are different, poetry is a lot of different things. And I think, of course, I gravitate when I think about poetry and poetry that I've liked. Of course, I gravitate towards the type of poetry that, you know, in this example that Vincent just read, which is talky, you know, juicy with details. I mean relatable is such a stupid word but you know what I mean it's like it's like it's about which is also what I am often drawn to when I think of what I like about a novel and so I was thinking okay what should I bring to our little kind of seminar here thinking about poetry and I was thinking okay I my friend Ariana Rines who is a contemporary poet and very prolific contemporary poet and who I like very much as a person, but her poetry too speaks to me.
40:49Naomi Fry:And I, you know, I have several. She's going to the text. I have. Yeah, I have several, several books of hers. Very gorgeous volume. Yeah, this is a nice Kelly Green. Yeah, this is from Mercury, which came out originally in 2011. Let's see. This this poem is called Lull, but it's it's The way it's spelled is two L's in the beginning and two L's in the back. So it's kind of like the end.
41:13Alexandra Schwartz:Do you want to just read us the first few lines just to give us a sense?
41:17Naomi Fry:Joan, Dinian and I are in her summer place. She serves me what she calls a Hawaiian burrito, which is wrapped in both flour and corn tortillas. Joan goes on and on about Hawaii and burritos and culture. How skinny I look, as in drastic and sick. Skeletal women always do this. Oh, Joan, I say, I don't look that bad, do I? Auschwitz bad? Smiling much more than is sincere. Plump and game, I remain nevertheless a woman, as in I know spite when I feel it. Hmm. There's a lot of kind of thinking about what it feels to be a woman in a body compared to other bodies in the world and the space and how that links to kind of like spirit or kind of like what you are inside versus what you are outside and how one accesses the other.
42:08Naomi Fry:And I would, Harry, I would recommend, you know, I mean, you might very well be very familiar with Ariane's work. But for those of you who aren't, I think that's a great and interesting. In the same way, I just feel like such a populist. Like, I'm like, give the students stuff about drugs, you know, show them the symptoms or whatever.
42:33Vinson Cunningham:Totally. I mean, Nomi, that was my first reaction to this question as well. Well, the first thing that popped into my mind was a book by the poet Sharon Olds called Odes, which has a whole bunch of different odes to things you don't expect, to body parts, to the penis, to the clitoris, to tampons, to douchebags. And I was like, Harry, give them odes. But then I thought, let me go in a little bit of a different direction. Because if we're thinking about, like, I do very much enjoy that book. But if I'm thinking about what really sits with me and beguiles me and has that kind of compressed, stringent, poetic quality, I think of Louise Glick, the American Nobel laureate.
43:20Vinson Cunningham:And her intensely cerebral poems that are almost always also about the body and her unpitying way of writing about experience and the great beauty of her language, which really demands accuracy of representation above all. and a book of hers that I love. There are many, but it's a book called The Wild Iris. And it's a lot of poems about flowers. And it's not about being pretty and ornamental. So it's about nature and living and death and confronting the bigness of reality, but through flowers. So here's a poem called The Red Poppy. The great thing is not having a mind. Feelings? Oh, I have those.
44:12Vinson Cunningham:They govern me. I have a Lord in heaven called the sun, an open for him, showing him the fire of my own heart. Fire like his presence. What could such glory be if not a heart?
44:28Alexandra Schwartz:Great reading, boys. That was great.
44:31Vinson Cunningham:You know, it's so hard to read poems. Like, you guys did such a great job. It's so hard because you want to kind of, you're like the enjambment and what do I? but the line, the great thing is not having a mind, coming from a flower. This is a poem in the voice of a poppy, guys. The great thing is not having a mind. Feelings, oh, I have those. They govern me. Those lines are in my head all the time because unfortunately I do have a mind and it also governs me and so do my feelings. So again, like for Glick and her poetry, so much is about the body trying to leave the body. She's written a lot about anorexia, which she experienced as a younger person.
45:11Vinson Cunningham:And here's something that is all body, trying to contend with that experience, but also to make some kind of intellectual sense of it. Ooh, I really, I actually have chills.
45:23Naomi Fry:I love it. Guys, I like poetry now.
45:28Vinson Cunningham:I mean, look, we can't like it all. See, Harry, it works. It's just like we like movies. We don't like them all.
45:33Naomi Fry:You're so right. Well, this was really fun. It was fun. Let's do it again sometime.
45:37Vinson Cunningham:Absolutely.
45:42Vinson Cunningham:Before we go, as surely as summer must turn to fall, treasured colleagues move on to new things. And this week, we're saying goodbye to a very beloved, dear and wonderful member of our show, Alex Barish, our editor and all-around partner in crime. Alex Barish has been with us since the beginning of Critics at Large. If you've listened to our horror episodes, you know his dear and delightful voice. And his DNA is baked into every show we've done so far, and it always will be. Alex, we love you. Thank you so much. And go get him.
46:17Alexandra Schwartz:We love you so much.
46:18Vinson Cunningham:We love you so much, Alex. I'm so sad, but happy for you.
46:29Vinson Cunningham:This has been Critics at Large. Alex Barish is our consulting editor and Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Kutchman. And we had engineering help today from Pran Bandy with music by Alexis Quadrato. And as always, you can find all of our episodes at newyorker.com slash critics.
47:03Vinson Cunningham:Do you hear that? That sound, right? That means that summer's officially here. It means that grown adults just sprint into the street for a frozen dessert shaped like a cartoon. But this summer, Mint Mobile has a better treat. Every plan, including unlimited, is$15 a month. And unlike ice cream, it won't drip down your wrist or look nothing like the picture. Does anyone have any cash? Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months, $90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only greater than$50.
47:30Vinson Cunningham:Gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms.
47:32Naomi Fry:Who is going to win control of Congress this November? And what is it going to mean for the final two years of Donald Trump's disruptive presidency? I'm Susan Glasser. I'm Jane Mayer.
47:44Vinson Cunningham:And I'm Evan Osnos. We host the Washington Roundtable on the New Yorker's Political Scene podcast.
47:49Naomi Fry:We're following what key races could tip the balance of power in Washington this fall.
47:54Vinson Cunningham:We're also going to go deep on the influence of dark money and tech billionaires. So join us in the run-up to the midterms in 2026. Subscribe to the political scene wherever you get your podcasts.
48:29Vinson Cunningham:on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll go bake and send us any questions you have. And we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. And if you want to master deep frying, this is your chance. Head to ba.com or our sub stack and come and bake along with us. Join us the first Tuesday of every month as we debrief about our latest bake. Find BA Bake Club wherever you get your podcasts. Happy baking!
From the publisher
As the school year resumes, Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Fry, and Alexandra Schwartz consider the work—and pleasure—of teaching and learning, reflect on their own experiences in the classroom, and counsel listeners on scholastic concerns. One teacher calls in asking for texts she could assign to combat apathy among her high-school students; another is looking for works that depict the highs and lows of her chosen career; and a graduate student seeks works of poetry to convince skeptics of the form’s artistic value. The hosts discuss the ways in which teaching is itself a kind of art form. “Teaching is so much a kind of performance,” Cunningham says. “You have to be the one out on the ledge . . . to establish a new frontier of, ‘You are allowed to be excited about this.’ ”
Read, watch, and listen with the critics:
“Less Than Zero,” by Bret Easton Ellis
Homer’s Odyssey
“Black Boy,” by Richard Wright
“The Great Gatsby,” by F. Scott Fitzgerald
“A Complicated Kindness,” by Miriam Toews
“Black Swan” (2010)
“The Holdovers” (2023)
“Democracy and Education,” by John Dewey
“The Class” (2008)
“The Simpsons” (1989-)
“Are You My Mother?,” by Merve Emre (The New Yorker)
“Dead Poets Society” (1989)
“Theme for English B,” by Langston Hughes
“Llull,” by Ariana Reines
“Odes,” by Sharon Olds
“The Red Poppy,” by Louise Glück
New episodes drop every Thursday. Follow Critics at Large wherever you get your podcasts.Critics at Large is a weekly discussion from The New Yorker that explores the latest trends in books, television, film, and more. Join us every Thursday as we make unexpected connections between classic texts and pop culture.
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