Ukraine: Fighting Russia, Fighting Russian

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1:19Selge is like a gem waiting to be discovered. So it's not exactly what you expected from a day in Antalya, but that's exactly the point. Plan your next detour at goturkia.com today. Thanks for downloading this Crossing Continents podcast. I'm Tim Hewell and I've taken my swimming trunks and a security advisor to the Ukrainian seaside to talk about language and identity.

1:51Welcome to the beach in Odessa, the queen of Ukraine's resorts, the pearl, as it likes to call itself, of the Black Sea. It's a sunny summer Saturday, and the shingles packed here, of people lying on beach mats, people queuing for ice creams, people jumping in the waves. There is a very dystopian picture. Is this here, my guide and translator? Half-necked bodies on the beach, and near it there is a green military truck with a machine gun. It's our air defense unit securing the beach from Shaghet drones that can come from the sea. There's a row of people here in bathing costumes. Here you are on the beach, but this is the middle of the war.

2:41So what she says, you know, missiles, rockets are flying. This is where we enjoy ourselves. What else can we do?

2:50This is our sea and no one's going to take this away from us. Hours. Hours. Hours. Hours. We come here to enjoy life in spite of Putin. But something else here is also a bit surreal, at least to a newcomer, in this fifth summer of Russia's all-out war against Ukraine.

3:13The fairground games are in Ukrainian.

3:19The cafe soundtrack is in Ukrainian. This, after all, is Ukraine. But the beachgoers, nearly all local Odessans, overwhelmingly use another language, the language of the enemy. This is a war with Russia. These missiles are from Russia. But you're still speaking Russian. I'm 46.

3:50I've spoken Russian all my life. I've always lived here. I went to school in Russian.

3:57Absolutely no problem here in Odessa with the Russian language. But that's not quite true. Even as it suffers constant bombardment, as you'll hear in this edition of Crossing Continents, the city's split over whether Ukraine is just fighting Russia or whether it should also be fighting Russian. that Russian language is the weapon of Russia, and we need to try to fix that. Now, when everyday people are killed, it's very hard to hear Russian language. Increasingly, Ukrainian law restricts the use of Russian, which is closely related to Ukrainian, but distinct in many ways. And in swathes of southern and eastern Ukraine, Russian is the main language in which people think, live, bring up their children.

4:43It's the language, too, of many of the soldiers defending Ukraine against Russia. Ukraine has millions of Russian speakers and it has been depriving them of their history, of their heritage, and making them feel like second-class citizens. We've just had an air alert and everyone's evacuating the beach. What? This is Jack, our security man. What's that little cloud in the sky there, Jack? Yeah, to me, they've shot something down maybe in that area.

5:14I first came to Odessa 35 years ago on a romantic summer mini-break and I was bewitched, like almost everyone is, by Odessa's stately, shady, slightly crumbling old streets by its balconies dripping with vines. Trundling trams, the dappled sunlight through the huge old chestnut trees. In summer at least, if I could only use one word to describe Odessa, It would be Langarhus, a town of long, lazy afternoons, a place to dream and dawdle in. It's a town famed for its musicians and writers. At its heart, not a castle or a cathedral, but an ornate, circular opera house. But Odessa is also a city of power, founded, history books have always said, by the woman whose massive monument once dominated the central square, Catherine the Great, Empress of Russia in the late 18th century, founded to cement Russia's possession of the strategic Black Sea coast to increase the empire's wealth.

6:29The Russian imperial period was when the city was built. When Odessa boomed, it was a tariff-free, tax-free port. Anastasia Pyogarsky, she's an anthropologist, is driving me down those leafy avenues towards the sea. My grandfather was a sailor. Most families here have somebody who works on a ship. So Odessa has that open spirit, because Odessa is Ukraine's most important cosmopolis, world city. And the streets here, Greek Street, Polish Street, Italian Boulevard, French Boulevard, places named after ethnic groups, countries. That's very much in Odessa's spirit. Odessa faced outwards, its back to its Ukrainian hinterland.

7:18And perhaps that's one reason it mainly spoke the common language of the Russian Empire and of its successor, the Soviet Union. Yes, it was completely Russian-speaking. If you speak Ukrainian, you are not from Odessa, you are from a village, you are not very cool. And it's the most sad that sometimes, still, now, even now, if I call taxi, some of taxis, then when they heard Ukrainian from me, they said, where are you from? And I say, sorry, I'm from Odessa, and it's my choice to speak Ukrainian. That's Natalia Michalenko. She grew up in Odessa in the 1990s. By then, Ukraine was finally independent.

8:06Russian was her first language. But the more she found out about Russia's centuries-long repression of Ukraine, the more she wanted to learn and speak Ukrainian. But were there some quite difficult moments? It was not easy. You're always in stress. I have a moment when I was in the bus. And a woman, I don't know her. I never saw her before. She took my hair exactly because I speak Ukrainian. She pulled your hair? Yeah. She was sitting on the bus with you and she was next to you and she started pulling your hair? Yes, yes, only because I speak Ukrainian. I was shocked. The cause of that aggression?

8:46Perhaps that generations of Odessans believed Russian was superior to Ukrainian, that it opened doors because it was the language of the coloniser. It's recification. And this is a big problem. With people who are older 40 years, 50, because Soviet Union propaganda are still in their hearts. Now there's an official programme to decolonise Ukraine. Where Catherine the Great once sat enthroned in Odessa, there's now an empty pedestal. As history is rewritten or corrected, some deny she ever found it the place at all. There is another version of history that shows that Odessa has more than 600 years of its own history.

9:33And in Odessa was a lot of Ukrainians and other nationalities' heroes that they was against the empire. But they weren't commemorated till now. This is Artem Kartashov. He's a young lawyer who's advised the local authority on changing street names. But decolonisation is also about language. Law say that in public space you need to use Ukrainian language. For example, in the cafe, waitresses need to use Ukrainian language. Any documents or any communications at the job need to be in Ukrainian. Can I just ask very quickly, did we just hear a siren? Yeah, we heard the sirens and I think it's the end of attack.

10:13Oh, it was for the end of attack? There was a drone shut down. A drone was shut down. OK, I'm just checking. We're safe to continue. So, for example, no Russian-language newspapers in Odessa, no Russian-language radio, no Russian-language television. All those things are only in Ukrainian. On the public space, there is no tolerance to Russian-language cultural product, but it's not about the language people speak at home, in private conversations or listening in earphones. So it's about the public sphere. Anyone with a public-facing job, waiters, shop assistants, doctors, is allowed to move into Russian if the customer or patient indicates that that's their preferred language, but they must begin interactions in Ukrainian.

11:00And if they don't, they're liable to paying fines or being fired. Anthropologist Anastasia Piliavsky. Of course, most of them don't get fined or fired, but it creates an opportunity for anyone to complain and then to have these people fined or fired. More recently, the law has extended to musical performance, to busking on the streets. So I know a woman who was fined because somebody heard Russian-language music that came out of a window of her apartment. The rules are complicated. Public playing of a song written or performed by a Russian citizen would certainly be illegal. A Russian-language song by a Ukrainian is still OK for now.

11:45But aren't restrictions like this a bit petty? No, says Lugoya Artem Kartoshov. By the Russian-speaking music or something else, Russians try to deconstruct Ukrainian identity or try to influence especially on the young people because they grow up in a Russian-speaking environment. And it's a big problem because it's a soft power. Part of people, they don't want to realise that language was instrumentalised by the Russian Federation as a weapon.

12:24There's one small corner of Odessa where people are still allowed, for now, to appreciate the soft power of Russian.

12:33It's power to make them laugh.

12:40This is the Mask Theatre, where veteran comic actor Boris Barsky with his luxuriant waxed moustache is king. His plays celebrate Odessa humour in what he says is the untranslatable language of its streets, Russian.

12:58They're sold out night after night. He's got away with it so far because it's a private theatre, but he's broken some rules that everyone must keep. A notice offered kofye, coffee in Russian, instead of kava in Ukrainian. The seats were labelled Miesta, Russian for place, not the Ukrainian Mistsa. And the bookshop illegally displayed more Russian-language titles than Ukrainian ones. Barsky was fined after Ukraine's language ombudsman convened a meeting in the capital Kiev about the case.

13:33From 10 to 10.30, they consider the complaint about the word seat. from 10.30 to 11, the complaint about the word coffee, and from 11 to 11.30, the complaint about books. This isn't even like Orwell or Kafka. It's just total madness. There's a siren going off. Some jets, planes, aircraft near Crimea, and also there is a shakhet, reactive shakhet drone coming to the port. Let's go on and I will follow. Now Boris is worried about efforts by some local politicians in Odessa to take further steps against Russian language content. They want an official recommendation to end all theatrical and song performances, even in private spaces.

14:25More songs have been written about Odessa than any other city. How can you cut them out of our lives? I don't understand what they're fighting against when they fight for Ukrainian. Russian isn't the language of Putin, it's the language of writers like Dostoevsky and Bulgakov. Who gains from this? From setting people against other people who love Ukraine just as deeply, only love it in a different language. Odessa has 117 ethnic groups, but only Russian is banned. And only Putin gains from this. I don't know who this is even more.

15:34Vladimir Putin has often used what he claims is repression of the Russian-speaking minority as one justification for his war on Ukraine. This is feeding Russian propaganda. The Kremlin doesn't have to invent propaganda anymore. Anastasia Piliavsky. She co-authored a petition against changing street names and campaigns for more open discussion about language laws. There's a silent majority, she says, against them. Every time that Ukrainians have had an opportunity to voice their opinion, the country has said again and again and again for the last 35 years that we are not a monolingual nation. We are a political nation, united in our desire for freedom, in our aspiration to the democratic, law-abiding European models of life.

16:32That's proved, she says, by the landslide vote in 2019 for Volodymyr Zelensky, who in his presidential election campaign and afterwards lapsed back and forth between Ukrainian and his native Russian. In Ukraine, the vast majority of people understand both Russian and Ukrainian. So the question is not really one of language, but it's one of liberty, right? Because Ukraine has been fighting for freedoms. The point of this war, if there is a point to it, is not to be under authoritarian rule, right? That's what Russia has to offer at the moment. So when fines, the threat of being fired, arrives, then people start wondering, so what the hell is the point?

17:15What are we fighting for? It's producing alienation. It's producing anger. The will of the majority of the Ukrainians and state policy are now very far apart. Air raid siren. Shall we check what's flying and where? I think that would be a very good idea. She's checking the social media feeds that Ukrainians rely on to monitor missiles. There are various channels with monitors and crews that are manning them as volunteers. So it looks like there are several Shahed drones that are flying from the Crimea. How long does it take them to reach here from Crimea? Drones take quite a while. They can take up to an hour and a half, two hours.

17:56but the missiles take three to eight minutes and it looks like there's a missile flying at potentially the centre. Let's go downstairs. We now have two minutes left. Two minutes? Let's go. All right, let's go.

18:17So we're staying at the very bottom of the stairwell. That's where most people are now. Let's stay here. I mean, it's very unlikely that the missile will land on this house precisely so it's better to stay. OK, 30 seconds until they hit. So we'll hear, we'll hear. Listen up.

18:38Bloody hell, I heard it. Yeah, yeah. Wow, that was some bang. That will be the port. There you go, that's the second one. That's it. Yeah, that's about a kilometre and a half, two kilometres. Yeah. Talking about language politics, when we need to be united, and we need to fight Russians. You know, it's preposterous to write language laws at this time. It's preposterous to fine people for their speech. But some of Anastasia's critics dismiss her arguments because, though she's a native Odessan, she divides her time between Ukraine and the UK, where she's a university teacher. Her petition against decolonisation measures was signed by about 150 Ukrainian cultural figures.

19:23But how strongly do most people feel about the language issue? One protest against restrictions on Russian, while I'm there, attracts just three demonstrators. And they're arguing now with a Ukrainian-language activist. He's got two different socks, a bright blue sock and a bright yellow sock in the Ukrainian national colours. His name's Pavlo Shubat. I think it's unacceptable during the war. I think it's unacceptable that during the war, even during the attack, air sirens, there are people who defend Russian language, the language of the occupant. But what's language got to do with this? I mean, a missile doesn't have a language.

20:05Let's remember the reasons why this war started. Russians want to protect Russian-speaking population of Ukraine. And if there is no Russian-speaking population, then there will be no Russian reasons to attack us. But there is a Russian-speaking population. I mean, this is a largely Russian-speaking city. He says, what is the reason that Odessa is a Russian-speaking city? It's because there was imperial politics of Russification of Ukraine, and we should erase it. Just a minute. These are real people. We can't erase people's lives. We don't want to erase them, but we want to limit their access to the public sphere, where they can talk this language.

20:46Or better if they want, they can move to Russia. But they grew up here. This is their home. Are you suggesting that the majority of the population of Odessa should simply leave? These people can easily switch to Ukrainian and non-Ukrainian, but they don't want. I think they just want to realise this idea of Russian world here in Ukraine. Russian world is Putin's idea of uniting Russian speakers under Russian rule. A young woman protester, Yulia, has a placard rejecting that.

21:19But Pavlo is trying to stop from talking to her. I'm sorry, Pavlo, but to be honest, it's beginning to feel a little bit aggressive. So we move away to a cafe, where a group of young men from Kiev, IT workers, Russian and Ukrainian speakers, in Odessa on a stag weekend, see her poster and ask to be photographed with it. My name is Imad. Why do you like that poster? Because a lot of soldiers on the front line are speaking Russian language, and it always was part of Ukrainian culture. And I guess there should be always a right to speak any language you prefer to speak. I'm not completely agree with the statement that we have to keep the Russian language.

22:01This is Timur, the one celebrating the end of his bachelorhood. But I think we have to try to invest in a good way to make Russian-speaking guys to speak more in Ukrainian, but not in the aggressive ways. But I think this game is like for distance, 10, 20 years. But for now, I can say I think we are, like, Ukrainians losing this war of languages. For example, I live in Kiev and 95 % of children speak Russian in the streets. That is quite interesting. So 95 % of children in Kiev in the capital speak Russian. Four years into a full-scale war with Russia and more than 35 years into independence. and in the face of a big government campaign to get people to speak Ukrainian.

22:45It's because I think right now, for youth, it can be cool. I think because there's a lot of lack of content in Ukrainian. Like, a lot of people, young people, they do like more the Russian content because there's not a lot of Ukrainian content right now in YouTube or TikTok or Instagram. It turns out he was exaggerating slightly, but not by much. In one recent survey, 82 % of school students in Kiev said they spoke Russian in breaks between lessons. So, is there a silent majority against the language laws? I think yes, because of the war. Everyone's worried because of saying something against their country.

23:25Everyone really has a fear of having some problems with the government, so everyone just keeps silent because it's war. Mitya, the boyfriend of the protester Yulia, he's just joined us, agrees. For sure there is some silent majority. I felt that Russian became a kind of intimate language, like when you have some trust between people. So, for example, at work, when I call unknown people, of course, I speak Ukrainian because it's official language. But then you hear the other guy trying to find a word in Ukraine and you can switch to Russian, which is much more comfortable for both of us. And at this moment, you're both happy that you find each other and you trust enough to speak Russian.

24:16And that's why, for some circles, Russian became back trendy. It's a big fake that we have a lot of Southern people. They fear to say something. Artem Kertashov, a decolonising lawyer, He says people are free to speak out against restrictions on Russian, though I've met several who didn't want to be interviewed on the subject for fear of possible social or professional consequences. But there's one more thing that's niggling me. Everything that you were saying about a connection between a nation and a language feels a little bit old-fashioned. In the 19th century in France, the state said Everybody in France should speak French.