Living Brands: Irreverent, Quiet & Everything in Between. With Founder of OneOfOne, Arnava Arsen

0:06Arnava Arsen:Since the dawn of time, we want products, brands, whatever. We purchase based on a set of factors. What does it say about me versus what does it signal about me? What kind of value do I get from it? As well, what kind of values do I ascribe to through it? Welcome to Curious Customer, the consumer podcast. This show is for anyone curious about the world of consumer. From insights, trends, companies, brands and design, we'll uncover the hidden stories from the people at the forefront of consumer industries. The show has a wide range of guests, from marketing leaders to startup founders. So whether you're in the world of brand building or the startup ecosystem, or simply curious about the world around us, then this podcast is for you.

0:55My name is Matt. I hope you enjoy the show. Arne, thanks so much for coming on. This has been, I think, a long time coming, and you are a true brand expert. I'm going to do the embarrassing bit now and just tell everyone a little bit about you. So you're the founder of One of One, a brand strategy and brand design agency based in the US. You have your master's in strategic design, an undergrad in consumer psychology, and you teach at Princeton University on brand, funnily enough and just to bring it all to life you've worked across a whole bunch of stuff such as the NBA, Tiger Woods's brand and pizza, Pepsi, way too many beauty companies to list and so much more over your 20 years or so in the industry but just to kick it off let's go back to when you first started.

1:42I want to know how did you get into the whole creative world?

1:46Arnava Arsen:I tell this story quite a bit. I had come out of a concert I'm pretty sure it was a Beastie Boys concert back in the probably mid-90s. And at Madison Square Garden, there was a massive billboard outside. And when I came out of this concert, in whatever state I might have been in, I look up to see the then current billboard. It was a Nike ad. No shoes in it. No athletes in it. It was just copy. And it just said, yesterday you said tomorrow. And there was a check at the bottom. And I stood there for probably what amounted to only a minute or so, but at the time felt like time really stood still.

2:26Arnava Arsen:And I saw that and I just thought that I want to do that, whatever that is. Can you try to find that for me? What is the that that you're chasing? There's a certain magic in what Nike was doing with that ad, and I see it a lot in the work that I'm pushing, where amazing on them to be promoting brand with no product. amazing on them to be able to write something so provocative with just a tinge of arrogance or just an almost paternal coach-like emphasis and encouragement that all it needs at the bottom is a check and you know exactly who it's coming from. And to take out a billboard outside one of the largest arenas in the world to promote that message at the time just felt like a real sea change and whatever I had known about marketing and brand before that time, just eating it up as a child and in the 90s and brand was a particular thing then.

3:26Arnava Arsen:So to see that, you know, was just magical. I think it is at the crossroads of authenticity and authority that I think most brands today are really trying to harness and few do as well. And to see it at the end of a gig, at the height of enlightenment. Must have been a great feeling. I mean, at the height of enlightenment, could have been the bottom of enlightenment for all I remember. But yeah, look, the timing was brilliant. And I think it's largely emblematic of really good creative in a really good space and letting it happen. Yeah. Let's talk a bit about brand in today's world then. So a world full of AI, full of AI tools, full of Canva, full of MidJourney, full of VO, where the barriers to creating a brand or at least a product are very low.

4:17And in creating a brand, some of the components of that, the barrier to creating those are also very low. So what does brand mean today?

4:25Arnava Arsen:Maybe I'm an odd bird. I think brand and creativity are as elusive and exciting today as they sort of always have been. I don't feel threatened by the low barrier to entry. And I think, you know, that largely because the globalization of talent over the last X amount of years lowered the barrier to creative juice. Everyone has creative potential. The fact is, is weaponizing that creative, being a, quote, creative in this service industry is an entirely different thing. I can play basketball. I should never be drafted into the NBA. Now, AI can help me improve my shot. AI can help my efficiency, effectiveness on the court, etc.

5:16Arnava Arsen:But I'm never going to be more than five foot nine. And so the fundamentals are kind of still there. I pray at the altar of creativity. For us in the creative services industry, I think it's a hugely exciting time. And the barrier to entry is more on the application side than on the being creative side. That as a tool, you know, my jump shot, so to speak, I'm practicing every day. AI helps that. Global perspectives help that. But again, I don't see a future where robots are doing my work, put bluntly. So maybe put another way then, brands today, or at least good brands today, having to work much harder because it is being flooded.

6:02And this chat around infinite creativity where people have blank canvases and AI does the work from a pretty basic input, the output, we can sort of debate whether that's of high quality or not. But to create a really good, lasting brand, you presumably are having to work harder to cut through the noise. And we haven't even got into distribution and the competition for our eyeballs there. So how do you actually sort the wheat from the chaff?

6:27Arnava Arsen:There is a ton of noise out there. I think a lot of the noise is also being perpetuated by brands who don't want to cut through it, who just want to be part of the noise. And so a lot of times I actually think it's quite simple for brands to break through. if they're willing to be the things that this moment called for. For instance, right now, let's just look at brand tone of voice. The tone of voice out there that's kind of winning, I think, is embodied well by Liquid Death, Wendy's, Slim Jim, those kinds of brands. The word that they all use is irreverent. There's something manospheric about it.

7:09Arnava Arsen:There's something anti-woke about it. there's something that is, we are who we are, take it or leave it. And wouldn't you know, when a brand says we are who we are, take it or leave it, there's a lot of people who may not buy the product, may not be an advocate for the product, but they're participating in that brand in some form or fashion. That's been going on for, let's call it five years. And like with all things that peaks, and then there's going to be something that kind of replaces it. And so you're starting to see a lot of brands were taking a more quiet, less irreverent, but that itself, in that quietness, it's loud in its own way.

7:50Arnava Arsen:There's no gotcha-ness to it. There's no, I can't believe the brand said that to it. It's far more kind of straightforward. And so that takes a lot of, dare I say, bravery for the brand to rally around. I mean, obviously, assuming that it's right for the brand, it's right for the given strategy and for the business goals that that brand has. But to wrap its arms around and get aligned around and have the capabilities in-house to properly weaponize that tone of voice, yeah, it's hard. But I think it's harder if the brand were to say, we want to be like Liquid Death, just in our category, so how can we be irreverent?

8:35Arnava Arsen:And so that really just goes to your larger question of what is harder about today versus some earlier period? And I feel like the same forces are at play. You know, yes, it's harder to get attention, but it's also cheaper in a lot of ways. So maybe that's not fair. So what is different about today? And frankly, I think the bravery question of creating a living brand as opposed to just a reactive, we see what's going on culturally, we're also in on the joke. That's hard to do. What does a living brand mean in that sense? Because I guess all of them have to be living to some extent. The reactive ones are living and reacting.

9:21So how do you define living brand outside of that?

9:24Arnava Arsen:There's a certain dimensionality to what a living brand is. And I really got my education in this working with Ann Pizza for many years. This was a regional sweet green of pizza kind of model, right? So this was pre-pandemic when fast casual food concepts were all the rage, right? And sweet green kava, these are good examples of that. And Ann Pizza came forward and it knew that you get pizza. You know what pizza's about. It also inherently understood that this is not good pizza, capital P, like really good, that you're going to go out of your way for. It's a convenience play. And so it really needed to stand out somehow else.

10:08Arnava Arsen:And so even back then, it was embodying living values. So what that means is really treating the brand as its own person. It's taking the idea of personification, personalization, mirroring empathy to some other crazy degree where the brand has its own personality, thusly its own opinions on things. The brand has its own personality, thus is able to change constantly. One good example of this, we changed the store look and feel with every new shop opening. You know, this was not an in-and-out play where every store looks the same, and it wasn't even a McDonald's play or Starbucks or some other kind of mainstream mass brand where, yeah, maybe they're all slightly different, but there's key cues that really sort of remind you where you're at.

11:00Arnava Arsen:This was a, we approach every asset, every moment of brand interaction as an expression that can be totally different and chameleoning whatever may be going on in the world or whatever we want to be showcasing. And so in that regard, being a living brand, having a worldview as opposed to just a singular point of view on the product really matters. having a visual identity system that, like you or I, gets dressed differently for different events, for different ways of showing up, becomes really, really important. Having a tone of voice that isn't necessarily consistent in the old classic way, where it's always saying the same five things in the same five ways, but in this case can flex and be consistently inconsistent, such that you're always, I mean, really what this comes down to is just more entertainment factor.

11:57Arnava Arsen:It's less about I want a pizza from these places. It's I want to follow and pizza because I like them and what they stand for in their perspective. Or I hate them for what they stand for in their perspective. And that's entertaining too. So are you seeing leadership today, founders, CEOs, whoever it might be that you're engaged with on a day to day? Are you seeing them become much more involved in brand? Because if brands today are an extension or a living thing, then they are probably by default an extension of those individuals. Maybe they emulate some of their character or how they want to push their product out into the world.

12:35so you finding yourselves having to pull those people out of their comfort zones a little bit more and become more brand centric and i guess a part of that is also that you're working very hard to make sure that they they have the bravery to be bold by sitting alongside you every day

12:50Arnava Arsen:i mean it's almost like an x y axis like you've got they are the brand all the way down to they understand they are not the brand across this horizontal spectrum of don't want to get involved all the way through to are literally hovering over your shoulder. The first thing I ever say to a business owner is, the business of your business should just be the business. Leave the brand to us. Because yes, they love getting involved in the brand. It's my baby. I see myself in it. It's an extension of me. I've heard this a million times. Well, surely we can cut this out of the scope because I can just do it with AI.

13:34Arnava Arsen:Well, there's two truths to that that we've seen. Number one, they don't. And number two, they can't. They don't have the time because, again, the business of their business should just be the business. So what I have found is at the same time as you've got this rise of founders who increasingly think they can do it themselves or who want to be the brand steward, you've also got a remarkable understanding, maturity around what proper brand management requires. Ten years ago, I might have said founders are more savvy about brands than they ever have been. And that was true. But nowadays, they're more mature about it to the point where they know the minute they start touching it, it falls apart.

14:21Arnava Arsen:I'm going to take us down a different tack here briefly. I want to understand what brand owners and brand builders know that perhaps consumers don't yet. And what I mean by this is I go out and I buy some shoes. And for me, it feels like it's spontaneous. But then I leave the store and I realize that actually everybody else is wearing the same shoes. and someone somewhere in brand world has tapped into my subconscious and has made me think about it and buy that pair of shoes in this example. What are you all doing? What do you know and understand that perhaps consumers are less clued up on? I mean, the amount of data that we have is incredible.

14:59Arnava Arsen:And I think one thing that we know, cynical as it may sound, is that consumer behavior is a largely patterned thing that can be studied and pretty much by and large can be followed. Look at any, I'm reading this wonderful book about evolutionary psychology behind consumer behavior. It's called Spent. Excellent read. And it basically says since the dawn of time, we want products, brands, whatever we purchase based on a set of factors. What does it say about me versus what does it signal about me? What kind of value do I get from it as well? What kind of values do I ascribe to through it? You know, these are all fundamental things.

15:46Arnava Arsen:So I think consumers love to believe, and it's part of the story that gets perpetuated, that they have autonomy, that they purchase because it's truly what they like. Now, on the flip side of that, there is another point of view, which is listening to the consumer is never really going to yield a, so therefore, this is what I want. Here's who I am demographically. Here's what I'm about psychographically. So therefore, here's what you should do for me, coffee brand, shoe brand, beauty brand, etc. That never happens. Now, this is not to spit on consumer centricity as though that's a thing of the past, because that's been the banner everyone's been following for probably as long as I've been in this game.

16:33Arnava Arsen:Consumer centricity. And God bless. Like, we need to really lionize insight, especially the more that we work with AI. So I don't think consumers know it, but us brand leaders have real insight unto them. Number two, I think when you create really shithot strategies, and for the record, by strategy I mean what are we doing over what tactics and channels for the next X amount of months, usually 12 to 18. That's a strategy. Not let's position to be more Gen Z friendly or less woke or whatever the trending term is. And so in those strategies, there are tons of maneuvers and contingencies that the consumer doesn't know.

17:25Arnava Arsen:If I launch with this campaign, the consumer doesn't know that the next campaign is going to message something that's going to help reinforce what the first message was all about, etc., etc. So they're just privy to what they see on shelf, what they see on screen, what they see outside. But they don't know the larger narrative that's being told at them, to them, with them, etc. And I find that hugely exciting. And then there's just the pendulum. I think what consumers are very easy, especially the younger ones, are very easy at forgetting is that the pendulum always swings. the fact that one of the topics of our time, literally of this moment, is how much Gen Z is now moving away from screen time, how much millennial and Gen X parents are starting to protect their kids against screen time.

18:18Arnava Arsen:Do I have the audacity or ignorance to claim that before you know it, we're not going to be on smartphones like we used to? No. However, the pendulum always swings. A more mainstream example is what Prada or Mew Mew, Six and One Half Does and the Other, is doing with its book club. They saw an insight that Gen Z loves reading hardcover books. It's the, I think, largest hobby, which no one would have ever believed had you said five years ago that, oh, Gen Z is going to be way into reading books and classical music. Like what? That's, No one would have ever expected that. And all our data points around friction, by the way.

19:03Arnava Arsen:But all the same, Prada Miu Miu looks at that and says, OK, that's the data. What's the insight? The insight is let's give them a truly sort of social experience of reading. Ah, a book club. And now, is that on brand for us? Well, we're sophisticated. We're probably a bit higher end in terms of association than Gen Z is comfortable with. So this might provide a nice kind of bridge for them to then get into the clothes we make. Great, let's start a book club. And it's gone gangbusters. It's certainly the largest of any consumer brand sponsored book club, but it's under the radar. Are they promoting it on their channels?

19:44Arnava Arsen:Not really. Does it get picked up by PR? Yeah, for sure. And I think in that regard, it's getting the word of mouth that it wants in a far more creative way than had they just said, we need more paid ads to look like Gen Z, which ultimately winds up labored and Gen Z wants to gag. I just want to pick up on one of the things you mentioned earlier there around speaking perhaps a bit less to the individual consumers because they might not have that vision or foresight to create the really bold future for that brand. If you're not talking to the customer that much or the consumer that much, or maybe I've misunderstood it, how are you seeing that future?

20:22Maybe just take your example then of less screen time. Three, four, five years ago, we probably couldn't have seen that or foreseen that happening anytime soon. How are creatives managing to tap? And I appreciate you mentioned data, right? But data is sort of a present commodity, not a future one.

20:38Arnava Arsen:I was speaking to what I believe is a rising trend of quietness, that brands are going to be a little more thoughtful. You'll feel a different kind of quiet from them. And that couples with other trends like dopamine design. So as the package is getting louder, the brand voice will get quieter and that'll yield a different result. But I think what you're also asking is, if there is a future where screen time is diminishing, if we see a present where the more that you're in someone's face on screen, the more that they're rejecting, i.e. performance statistics around paid advertisement and that going more expensive and less ROI, what's then the future hold?

21:21Arnava Arsen:Well, I think this is another example of the answer's sort of creativity. There's a brand that I'm in love with. I don't work for them. They're called Bjornkorn. Now, I'm a father of two. And as you'll soon discover as well with yours, popcorn is the greatest thing in the world, especially also because both of mine are celiac. So every four seconds they ask for a snack, I've got this to give them. It's a mom and pop, no pun intended, brand. And I've been a big fan of theirs because the product is stellar. Bit of advice, number one, what works in brand and strategy, a stellar product, always since the dawn of time.

22:01Arnava Arsen:And I know that because of online shopping and social shopping, even that barrier has dropped. But their product is exceptional. And their values, their value, all these things, what it signals, what it says, all these things, they hit it beautifully and with such authenticity. You can tell that it was really made with earnest intentions. You can believe in them. Well, they got to a point in scaling where they looked hard and long at, do we go hard on performance? Do we try and get a paid ad in front of everyone? What's that creative look like? Except they didn't choose that path. Instead, they bought a roller disco that's in my town, just down the way from here.

22:46Arnava Arsen:and they use half of it as their packing facility and the other half they've preserved the roller disco. Now why is that so genius and creative and thusly rewarded? Because where I live upstate, they knew that to give the community up here a roller disco was to create a series of events that you and your kid, you and your partner, you and your friends could all come to that you're going to do all the posting for them. So why do I need paid ads if they're going to give me all this free organic? And then before you know it, it just became its sort of own thing. It's where the community all gets together.

23:30Arnava Arsen:It's where all the parents spend their Friday night having a little drink while their kids are skating. And to me, that's a glimpse into the answer you're looking for. Yes, it'll all normalize. how we use social media will not be the same tomorrow as it was yesterday. And therefore, engagement on it and therefore performance for brands on it will all change. And thusly, we'll get creative again. What people are doing with Out of Home right now, I find really exciting. Taxi toppers, I find really exciting. Give us an example of what else is happening in Out of Home that's exciting. I mean, obviously everything that Oatly does with Out of Home, I think, is genius.

24:14Arnava Arsen:Using it as more kind of stunty activation as opposed to just trying to get as many eyeballs to see you doing something. It's also PR and press stuff. Another good example, and I'll give this one to Liquid Death because I beat them up earlier. Liquid Death is a great example of what I was saying earlier vis-a-vis setting a strategy and the consumer doesn't know what's coming. Okay, so Liquid Death came out swinging and it was all about kind of brand. We're canned water, but we're in a tall boy and we've got this heavy metal look and feel. And it blew people's minds and they really long-tailed that.

24:53Arnava Arsen:But at some point, you got to ask yourself, okay, but again, this is all going back to just canned water. So what do we do here? They clearly need to scale associations away from just, oh, yeah, they're that cool marketing stunt. They're that cool brand thing. People need to take their product more seriously. Because I've never drank it, but I sing their praises all day or I'm critical. I talk about them. So they got all the word of mouth from me, but they got no lifetime value out of me. Okay, so now they need to go after and deposition some form of their competitors. They're not going to go after Poland Spring.

25:29Arnava Arsen:So they're picking a fight with Olipop. It's a probiotic soda. And they did this whole YouTube video. It's basically about Olipop will give you diarrhea versus us. We don't give you diarrhea. I mean, that's basically the thing. Now, is that being chopped up and used as paid ads? It is not. Was that being promoted all over their organic? It was not. They created a piece of brand messaging that literally was going to just get picked up by press and spread around the world as quickly as possible. Everyone I know linked to it. Everyone I know was talking about it. I mean, it's the same thing as what's been happening with Sydney Sweeney and her great jeans or whatever, that controversy.

26:11Arnava Arsen:Or Cracker Barrel. It was made, like, that's good examples of kind of new out of home. It just lives online. It's just online out of home. Yeah, yeah. I want to just touch on as well, brand friction. And you've mentioned this to me off the podcast as well, where some brands are actually making a little bit harder or making their customers work harder in order to understand the brand a bit more deeply. Can you talk about that? Yeah. So one of my big predictions for what's coming our way, because as a wonderful friend of mine once said, opportunity stands at the precipice of evidence. And so what I'm about to call out as something I see, there's not a lot of evidence for it at present, but you kind of feel it.