170. Sean Yates: the truth behind Wiggins, Froome and the Tour

0:00As a cycling coach once told me, you train on the turbo and you race on the road. And I've stuck by that mantra for a long time. Grinding out the boring indoor kilometres with the hopeful payoff, it'll be worth it. I will be faster, I'll be better when I go and ride my bike outside. But then Ruvie came along and actually makes riding indoors, whisper it, real. That's because Ruvie is like riding your bike outside, only inside. name a climb a ride a destination Alpe d 'Huez Sacre-Lobre Paris-Roubaix Strada Bianchi New Zealand Vietnam the list goes on and on and you can ride it all on Ruvie it makes Ruvie a brilliant way to train for an event or a big trip you can climb the Stelvio you can tackle the Ahrenberg or test your legs over the Poggio all from the comfort although that depends on how hard you pedal of your home trainer Ruvie's also super social too It's got loads of group rides and events, including clubs and club challenges, as well as in-ride chat, where riders can chat and encourage each other during rides.

1:01It all helps to bring Ruvie riders together for a fun and inclusive indoor riding experience. Right now, Cyclist Magazine podcast listeners can get a one-month free trial valid from now up until the 31st of March 2027 by visiting rouvy.com, that's R-O-U-V-Y.com, and using the code KEEPITREALCYCLIST at the checkout. Offer is only valid for new users.

1:31hello and welcome back to the Cycles Magazine podcast I'm your host James Spender and it's just me for now anyway Will will be joining me for our chat in a mo so I'm going to get on and introduce today's guest which is none other than Sean Yates now I think it's fair to say that Sean Yates I was going to say was is he's a double-eyed bastard he's a hard-as-nails British rider and he had to be back in the day in those early 80s early 90s days trying to break into European cycling as an English speaker it were it was tough and Sean tells us all about that including cutting his teeth by joining French amateur club athletic club Boulogne-Billancourt in 1981 which was a kind of proving ground for lots of people from from that era wanting to get into cycling needing a springboard you joined this club in Paris and it was brutal Sean talks all about kind of how crazy it was and that hopefully meant that you went into some races did well and got a contract lo and behold that is exactly what happened to Sean had a good year and he got tapped on the shoulder by Peugeot and signed to them in 1982 and that kicked off a 15-year professional road career he moved from Peugeot to Fagor then to 7-11 and to Motorola and over that time he could count people like Stephen Roach and Robert Miller and Lance Armstrong and Andy Hampston, all his teammates.

2:55And he was riding against people like Bernard Hino and Greg LeMond. Can you imagine halcyon days for cycling? Albeit, yes, there's a darker side. We talk about that too. But I don't want to get bogged down in that just yet. I want to tell you more about Sean, because Sean was a formidable rouleur, amazing time trialist, won stage six at the 1988 Tour de France, time trial that was, as well as a stage at the Val to Espana and a stage at Paris and East that year. That was a very good year for Sean. Also another great year was 1992 when he was British road race champion. And then 1994, that's a pretty good year too.

3:31Sean wore the yellow jersey at the Tour de France. An amazing moment. And just remember that, he had a yellow jersey. I'll talk about that a little bit later. Sean retired from racing at the end of 1996. And then, like so many riders, Act Two was the well-trodden path into team management. So his first gig was joining the short-lived, who remembers these guys? Linda McCartney. Was Paul ever involved? Did they just eat veggie sausages? I just don't know. I'll do a deep dive on that one day. The Linda McCartney team joined that in 2001, where, guess what, he would coach a young Bradley Wiggins. Remember that name too.

4:07Stints with Discovery Channel, Team CSC and Astana followed, but that eventually led into Sean's big gig for his DSing career, Team Sky in 2020. Now at Sky, obviously, we all know what happened in 2012, but do we remember the Yates mentorship of Wiggins? It was talked about at the time. I'm going to talk about it again. We talk about it in this episode where, you know, there's other people in the team as well. Well, it's not just attributed to Sean Yates, but Sean helped sort of basically refocus Wiggins during that Tour de France. Even though Wiggins was winning, he looked an absolute shoo-in, but it suddenly looked like the wheels might fall off, as behind the scenes, he'd had this big bust-up with Chris Froome over an attack on stage 11, where Froome, who was riding as domestique, supposed to be riding for Wiggins, decided to go for it.

4:57Yates, on the radio, called Froome back. But anyway, Wiggins felt, in Wiggins' words, stabbed him in the back. and he nearly quit the tour. Isn't that mad? But he didn't. And Sean Yates was there, arm around the shoulder. So no surprise to also learn that Sean Yates was a big boyhood hero for Bradley Wiggins. Sean did leave Team Sky, some might say acrimoniously and certainly abruptly after 2012, but he did carry on in team management and he went to work after NFTO, smaller team. He went to work for Tinkoff Saxo. Remember them? Oleg Tinkoff, crazy guy, kind of Bond villain-esque. would come out of a helicopter with a shock of bleach blonde hair.

5:35He looked a bit, I feel like he sort of looked like a bad guy and die hard. And I mean that with utter respect. Or Klaus Kinski, if anyone knows who he is. So he was probably a bit of a different beast to a Dave Brailsford. Tinkoff, as Sean will tell us, a very different team to work for than Team Sky. But anyway, there's some good stories in there. We touch upon it, particularly Sean chiding Dave Brailsford. Dave B as he likes to call him after a win a specific win for his Tinkoff team against his old boss but anyway I digress back to Sean back to Sean's personal life actually late 2016 that was a really difficult year Sean fell for a ladder and was impaled by a branch because he used to do a lot of gardening over the winter as a younger rider and just kept it up and so even in 2016 he was cutting his neighbour's hedges in Sussex and fell from a ladder in pale by the branch.

6:28It went right up a part of you or very near a part of you that you don't even want to think about something going up. And from there, doctors had to remove an eight inch stick. Now, I'm just going to leave it there. Sean will tell you more. But that was a difficult, very difficult episode. Nearly, you know, that was nearly the end of Sean's life. That's nearly the end of Sean. It certainly looked like it was going to be in the Sean cycling again. But no, So, Sean still psychers. And this is also, despite a couple of heart operations, a stroke that Sean also touches on as well. It's mad. When we meet Sean's in Spain at the moment, that's where we kick off our chat.

7:03The day before we talk, he's just done a six-hour ride. I haven't ridden for six hours for ages. Sean was born in 1960. He's a 66-year-old guy. It's incredible. Sean still is clearly an animal on the bike, and he translates that now into his coaching business, which he runs remotely from Spain. That's Sean Yates Coaching. I think I've got that right. I'm going to put some show notes in there so you can check out Sean Yates Coaching. We all need a coach, don't we? Someone just to pat us on the back and say, we're doing all right. Other times to say, come on, get off that chair, go outside and do some miles.

7:39It's going to be good for you. Cycling is always good for you. Anyway, so Sean's in Spain at the moment. That's where we chat remotely, but he will be coming back to the UK so keep your eyes peeled what airport is he going to land in? I don't know, will there be fans? Possibly, who knows but Sean will be coming back to the UK in a couple of days for the annual Garmin Champions in Cycle Sport dinner which is this kind of big industry I want to say love in, in a good way it's a positive thing the great and the good of cycling attend we've got loads of pros and ex-pros who kind of, I guess schmooze is a word but also tell their stories hang out meet each other meet members of the public um i'm not sure if you can still get tickets to it but it's a point in time that's something you know it's a gala dinner that anyone can go to i believe but crucially champions in cycle sport raises money for action medical research which helps fund dozens of research projects into children's diseases and disabilities now i'll also put a link for action medical research in the show notes too.

8:42But it's an amazing cause. I've donated before. I'm going to donate again. And when you think about it, you know, we all have to, right? Because if you want to change people's lives with science and pioneering research, that costs loads of money. And it's sadly not always in the interest of the people with the money to spend the money on doing that thing. So sometimes we, you, me, we got to raise that money ourselves. Luckily, people at Action Medical Research are coordinating those efforts. So check that out. Garmin Champions in Cycle Sport Dinner. Check out Action Medical Research particularly, and I'll put some more links in those fabled show notes.

9:20Does anyone read the show notes? Of course you read the show notes. I write the show notes. Who doesn't want to read what I've written? Because you can also read what I've written in Cyclist Magazine, by the way. We're a paper print product, and you can buy us in whatever they're are they T.G. Jones that still exist? I don't know. I think there are shops out there that sell magazines. But I've digressed again. So let's just pause, take a beat, flick the kettle on, and come back after this little jingle and listen to Sean Yates.

9:54So I was going to say you're in Spain. Where you are looks quite sort of, quite kind of English study. No, I have in Spain. I'm in Spain with my English books behind me. Nice. But no, I am in Spain in a small village in the Valencia region, inland from a place called Cassión, Benicassim. Some may have heard of Benicassim because of his music festival. Indeed. Is that something, do you go to the music festival? No, I don't. Did you move? No, no. So are you still, and I hate this phrase because it's so wishy-washy and kind of catch-all, but I was diligently doing research and reading a piece on Velo about you living off grid.

10:38Is that still the case? Are you living the good life on a farm? No, we decided to move to a village about five kilometres from where we were living off grid. The idea was that when we bought the land that we would build on it, but that proved quite problematic. and in the end decide just want to move to the village or a village. The village we are in is, yeah, like I said, 5km away from the land, which we still have where we have some donkeys, some dogs, some cats, some olive trees, a caravan and bits and bobs, container full of rubbish. Yeah, so yeah, we kind of just decamped to the village really.

11:21But we do go to the land every day to feed the animals, hang out, whatever, you know. Nice. And presumably you're coming back to the UK fairly soon for Garmin's Champions in Cycle Sport dinner. That's on the 18th? Indeed, 17th, I believe. Yes, I will be doing that trip, making that trip. Yeah, I've been to that dinner quite a few times. I'm a friend of the organiser, Sarah. So yes, that's always a nice thing to come to. And for listeners who might not have come across Champions in Cycle Sport before, Can you tell us a bit about Action Medical Research, which it's affiliated to and raises funds?

11:59Action Medical Research, yes. They raise money to do research primarily for children's purposes, illnesses. Obviously, most of us are extremely lucky that we don't have anything rare or that is untreatable. but there are lots of individuals out there, sadly, who have these illnesses, which, you know, that there are not, there are not cures for yet. You know, to find a cure, you need to research. And they raise money to fund a lot of these researches, yeah, and also facilitate care for individuals, children who, who suffer from rare diseases and such like, you know. Obviously, there are hundreds of charities out there that raise money for lots of causes.

12:49Without charities like Action Medical Research, there would be potentially no cures or at least help and aid for parents who have children who suffer from rare diseases, which obviously sometimes they are fatal. but yeah it's obviously it's pretty sad often and to be able to help in any way you know is obviously good and you know the the dinner itself is is supported by lots of big companies you know you put a lot of money in um to help yeah but you don't know about it you know the owner of balfour beat you whoever you know you just don't know these guys they do put a lot of money into good causes but that goes unnoticed and undocumented you know but they obviously they they make they make a fair whack themselves but they do obviously donate you know and are very generous in many ways which is great obviously for for for the unfortunate few really yeah and there's lots of other pros and ex-pros like yourself that attend and i was wondering like when you have a get together like that when you're potentially going to see steven roach or maybe Sean Kelly or not quite in your cohort, but someone like Johan Museo, do you look forward to that and do you get the old racing stories out?

14:13Or are you all just a bit like, come on, guys, we've spoken about this so much. Should we just talk about the football? No, I mean, it's all a bit rush, rush. You know, I mean, the format is that you, initially you meet, have a few drinks and circulate and then you sit down to a table with the guests that have bought that table and also donated through the foundation to the charity. But yeah, obviously catching up with Stephen, with Kelly, it's pretty similar each year, you know, and Johan, who I see quite a bit anyway. But it's good to see these guys now and then just to keep the flame alive type thing.

14:49I was going to say, do you still feel, you know, you're now in your sixth decade, do you still feel that you are a cyclist who no longer competes? Is that how you kind of view your life? is cycling still your burning flame cycling is is my life as my autobiography suggests um it's all about the bike yeah um which you may some people might say it's a bit sad but no i do like riding my bike and yes i had these six hours with a friend who's over here staying for a week and i just like obviously i'm retired now pretty much so i just like riding my bike i'm still going to compete next year you know i i i like to be as good as i can be so i upload all my my advice to training peaks i am a coach i do some coaching so i know you know what the schools mean and such like so i always loosely follow the protocol regarding training you know i don't train indoors i never go out but it's raining but you know it doesn't rain much here so it's free handy but yeah I still consider myself a bike rider.

15:57I love riding. I love watching cycling. I watch all the races. I'll be blessed, you know, that cycling, you know, if you subscribe is once the season's underway, the amount of cycling you can watch is massive compared to other sports who don't have such coverage or, you know, there is not the amount of events, you know, that are filmed, for example, and shown on TV. so we yeah i do that's my post recovery is often catching up on on on racing and such like so i do consider myself still a bike rider but a slow one that must feel like such a big change from when you were young and sort of getting into cycling when like not many people out on the road cycling when you were going not on tv often do you sort of think about how far it's come and like maybe the part that your generation have played into putting that into more of the wider sphere especially in the UK yeah obviously it's come a long long way and one of the things I often say to myself is it's too bad that the the coverage of the races when I was about and before is not as clear as it is today i.e the images you know because I love to watch more of the old stuff and there's plenty out there on YouTube.

17:16To be honest, I don't overthink things. You know, I had my career as a rider and as a DS and life just bowls along, you know, so I just kind of go with the flow and I don't look too far ahead. You know, this year in February, I had open heart surgery. Last year, I had heart surgery. I've had many issues, but thankfully after this last bout of surgery, I feel a whole lot better. So I've been enjoying that while I can and riding quite a lot. So yeah, I'm actually looking forward to doing a couple of events. Recently, my sons have been coming out quite a lot. So I've been helping them at the events.

17:57So I'm still kind of integrated a little bit into the cycling kind of competition mode in a way. And so talking about your heart surgery, is that something that I've heard from other, lots of different riders, Peter Sagan is a case in point where it just turns out years later, someone detects something and goes, hey, you've been racing with this condition for a long time. You're pretty lucky. Was it something that you've always kind of had and now you're having to deal with? Well, I've had heart issues since 2003 when I first went into atrial fibrillation, which is very common for endurance athletes.

18:33I had a quick cardioversion. That's when they stopped the heart and started again. That sorted out for a couple of years. Then it went out again. So I had the ablation where they're going to burn something because it's kind of misfiring. That's lasted another couple of years. Then I had to have another ablation. Then a couple of years later, I had a stroke. Then I had heart failure and this, that, and the other. So it's been ongoing. And as I get older, the consequences have been more dire in a way. But I think the last time I really raised was 2011. 11 as a decent level and then it kind of started tailing me off as I came over 50 and then I had a bad accident in 2016 and that put me out permanently into atrial fibrillation and then you know it's just a long story basically you know I'm on my fifth pacemaker um and had bits and pieces but after as I said after this last operation where they had to repair a valve that I was damaged in an operation last year.

19:39I feel much better, so I'm enjoying it, like I say, while I can. What was the accident you had? I fell out of a tree. Why? I was up a tree, chainsawing, and the ladder wasn't secured properly. Amateur mistake. And I fell down, and a branch went right up inside me. You know, up from my backside, virtually, and smashed into my safe room. and it turned out that I still had eight centimetres of branch inside me once I got to the hospital. And that required a six-hour operation to get the stick out. And then I had to have a colostomy bag, you know, because it was quite a severe operation. And basically they said, we're not sure if he'll make it, you know.

20:30But I did. and then I had a reversal of the bag and then I moved to Spain. So yeah, that was the accident. Is it too much of a kind of obvious parallel step to say your kind of tenacity, your conditioning as a cyclist in terms of just having immense mental fortitude and grit and determination means that you're faced with something like that and you just go, nah, I'm getting over this and I'm getting back on my bike. This won't defeat me. whereas you've got a doctor saying, yeah, you're lucky to be alive. If you can sit on the sofa in a few months' time, then call that a win. Yeah, I mean, I'm blessed that I have a very strong constitution and I feel I'm pretty much, you know, obviously everything's going to end at some point, but I don't think about that for sure.

21:23And I feel I'm very strong. I am very strong. You know, anyone who can do 15 Tour de France's is naturally obviously very strong I got a big resistance and an ability to absorb massive workloads big hits etc etc so you know I feel you know that nothing is going to stop me pretty much you know which may sound a bit big-headed but no I mean yeah I had an accident you know I never believed I was not going to be back on the bike you know I think after a month or two I was on the home trainer you know i had to kind of have stepped to climb onto it i then had a massive infection which that all also could have ended me but yeah i mean i just keep going really you know i'm not um i'm not finished yet so yeah i don't know yeah obviously like you say some people might yeah obviously after the initial 2003 episode people told me i should slow down but you know i wasn't interested in slowing down you know i just wanted to keep doing what i can do and so the consequences is if there is any you know if there are any so you know and 23 years later i'm still going strong so yeah you know i'm i intend to keep riding for yeah another 15 years at least wherever you know just take it as it comes i don't overthink things i just get out and do it do you feel like that's where your nickname the animal is seated is that where it comes from i just think like in in in the great pantheon of amazing cycling nicknames the animal like it conjures in my mind eddie merx is the cannibal it's just like do or die take no prisoners doesn't matter i always get to the end pretty much pretty much you know i like to achieve and set out and achieve goals.

23:17But the reason I got the nickname was actually in my Peugeot days. And it was a French rider, Francis Castagne, who was a sprinter in the team. He actually won a station tour de France. He used to call me the bestias, which is the animal, because I never used to wear arm warmers, gloves. You know, I like the rain. I just get on the front and just hammer and hammer and hammer. I was like an animal. I just ate everything up and got in the front. And that, obviously, when I switched to a British team, that kind of followed me through and it's stuck with me ever since. And I've actually got the animal written on my Oakley top here, you know?

24:01Brilliant. So, yeah, I mean, that kind of sucked me. Now, I guess I am a bit of an animal, but these days more of a pussycat, you know? but i still be like you know this summer i went out to the 300k ride you know i just sit out three in the morning and just take it off because that that's the goal you know wow do you think that's part of what made you good at time trials or do you think it kind of the time trialing sort of helped mold you into that kind of ride that you know you held the national 10 mile record for quite some time and you've won a lot of time trials in your pro career you won a tour de france time trial which are a lot longer than they are these days and they're a bit short now how much do you think the time trying to help you or do you think you were just natural beast in that sense well i think time trying is is definitely the definition of kind of suffering yeah it's a question of will and pushing on there's no one around you so yeah by definition you have to be a bit of a glutton for punishment you know to to to ride time trials you know yeah I'm actually still the competition record holder for the 12-hour tandem record, which I set with the late Zach Carr in 2005 with 304 miles, I think it was.

25:22Wow. I had to be a bit random with that day because I only got on a tandem the day before and the saddle was too high and I was suffering so bad I didn't touch a bike. I couldn't sit down on a saddle six weeks after the event. basically and the next day i had to travel to poland for the tour poland i turned up there and the other director said what the hell is the matter with you you know i was in such a state but obviously you know the goal was to get the record so we went out and did it so that was yeah that was more more suffering but yeah the time trial by definition you have to be a bit of a gun and often riding on the front of a bunch is pretty much the same effort you know you have to get on with it like you do in Thai try you can't stop and put a long sleeve jersey on or faff around with your old shoes you just need to get out then do it and I'm fascinated with your kind of roots and particularly ACBB so Athletic Club Boulogne Billancourt which is a kind of what I'm not sure where it's at now but back in those days you would go over to France as an amateur and you would it It would be this real school of hard knocks, I've been led to believe.

26:36You've had people like Brian Smith or I think Sean Kelly or Stephen Roach went there, had those guys on the podcast. And they tell some pretty brutal, almost kind of comedy tragic tales about those times. Can you cast your mind back to those ACBB days? Explain kind of like what the lay of the land was. And did that feed into creating a rider that wouldn't have existed otherwise? was it that brutal a kind of borstal kind of i think yeah the athlete club bilan billy court was accompanying lots of sports you know and it was run by the council of that area in paris so they had lots of funding from the council i.e the government i guess and one section of it was the bike team and yeah they had a league with peugeot and i think you know with the sean kelly would have been pretty much the first he didn't go there well she did rob miller for lanson they suddenly made the link mickey vegan the boss of the club made the link that if guys can come from over the pond and stick it out then at the very least they're tough mentally you know and i think they were kind of thinking kind of way ahead of their time really in that you know cycling is not just kind of a jolly you have to be tough mentally to be successful hit the big time and do the jobs you're asked to do so I think they were a bit of the head of their time and um for example when I went to ACBB I got the overnight um I got the the trade for Victoria Station the bus I think the bus as I came to the land of the Guards of Nore.

28:25And they told me there'd be someone there to pick me up, to take me to the apartment. I got there with a bike and a suitcase and there was nobody. Luckily, there was a guy called John Parker, late John Parker, who'd been at the ACBB the year before. And luckily he was there. Otherwise, I don't know what I would have done. And he said, I know the way. And I said, well, they said someone's going to be here. And he said, no, it's a test. If you can find your way, you know, obviously no internet, no mobile phones, nothing. If you can get from Gardenault to Boulogne-Billing Corp, then you must be pretty, you know, determined.

29:10So that was the first test. Yeah, as I said, luckily he was there and we managed to haul our bikes onto the subway, you know, and get across there. but yeah it was I don't know I didn't overthink things as I said um earlier you know I just got on with it I mean when I started cycling I never thought I'd be a pro bike rider but you know I obviously like winning and I got to bigger and bigger level and then my dad was like there's no cycling in the UK you need to go abroad so okay I'll go abroad give that a whack you know and um So, yeah, I mean, I just got on with it. You know, I wasn't super serious in those days, but I was gifted with a certain amount of strength, which enabled me to win a fair amount of races.

29:58So, and they, the ACBB had a league with Peugeot. Peugeot supplied the bikes, you know, and they were shifting guys yearly. Bob Miller, Phil Anson, Stephen Roach, me, Alan Piper, Dagota Lawritson. And so once a year, that was kind of the production line. And, yeah, I was the best that year. And I went turn pro for Peugeot, you know. Obviously, you're out there. Nobody speaks English. You have to learn the language. You have to just do what you're told, get on and give it a whirl, you know. And luckily, I was strong. And I just came up with the goods. It's not very complicated. Not like today, you know.

30:43it's just another world and it's hard for for people to relate you know no internet no mobile phones no tv you're just stuck in paris in some apartment surrounded by french people but you know you don't know any better you don't know there's going to be internet tv whatever out there you just you are there and you go ride your bike and enjoy yourself and it's a bit of an adventure you know so do you just kind of use ride all day training doing prescribed training and then you're told here's a racing schedule sharp to these races and hopefully you do okay and then you get a contract at the top of your cross yeah pretty much pretty much obviously we they were pretty organized and that their team cars then come pick us up you know we're gonna come tomorrow and pick you up at 8 a.m you know um and and off you go to wherever it is and there was no you just training was left up to you there was no of the coaches in those days there's no platforms to upload stuff there were no devices to you know there may be a speedometer even though i think probably before speedometer existed you know so it's just hours go and do hours go and do hours ride around longchamp at the end of the ride where there were lots of riders racing you know going fast and just obviously yeah there were articles in the cycling weekly for example about interval training and which i i did a little bit before you know after going to riding come from a track background to track time training i knew about intensity being with the track squad we used train off the intervals and and intensity at lesser track went to olympics you know but it's a whole different world home you know obviously no dieting i mean i put on eight kilos in the first five months because I was not used to you know just hanging around really when I was in the UK I used to work in the mornings training afternoon yeah and here I was you know not full-time really suddenly I started eating meat up to that point I was a vegetarian I was doing 500 push-ups a day and suddenly I was like a tank you know um all the extra protein as well as too much for Rav Blanc.

33:02But yeah, I mean, I wasn't very serious, but I was just lucky I was strong. And once I got back, sorted out a little bit by mid-season, then I started to bring in the results. And I could see after I was strong, I had some good results in time trials at the back end of the year. And that was it. And you, was it 1982 that you turned pro with Peugeot? 82 yes 82 and so you're you're moving you're at the beginning and you're moving into a peloton that was controlled by you couldn't think of a more european french cycling through and through cut him in half and it says cycling says velo rider than bernard hino how intimidating was that for a 22, 23-year-old moving into a world of cycling where that guy is at the top table?

34:00Yeah, I mean, I didn't, obviously I raced against him, but I didn't really race against him until 84 when I did my first Tour de France, where he was the boss. After a lot of time, I wasn't very close to him because he was always up front, whereas I was down the back maybe getting dropped. but I do remember one time because I didn't like the sun I couldn't my eyes couldn't take the sun back in the day before the days of Oakley and one time in a race in the middle of the year I said I'm going to go to the competition and I bought a pair of Oakley Ray-Ban Ray-Ban aviators with a hook around the back and I wore those the whole time and one time we had come into a safe finish I think, I believe it was Nantes.

34:51And I was next to Hino and I hit it. My handabye hit his thigh, you know, and he turned around and said, Yikes, take the effing glasses off so you can see where you're going. And I was like, okay, yes, yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. But yeah, I mean, Hino was a beast. And he was just like so strong, riding on the front line all day long, kind of intimidating people and don't attack. otherwise they'll make you all suffer you know so like okay yeah well attack then but the dope francis suffering is 20 20 20 days to go you know um but yeah he's one of my kind of heroes i think you know i know he was the last of the kind of patrons i would say you know if you want to call it that uh especially when you're young you know 20 year old like you said and coming up and you're just dumped in the middle of this peloton with all these French-speaking people.

35:49You know, obviously, back in the day, you kind of stuck, you know, the Italians didn't come over to France much, and the French hated going to Belgium because the food was crap, whatever, you know. So when we were with Persia, when we did the classics, we had to stay just over the border in France, you know. Couldn't stay in Belgium because TV was crap, the food's crap, you know. it was so you know they were so stuck in their ways um i can't go to america the food's crap or they eat burgers you know you know it's like it was that's the mentality i mean i think the most of the french books are saying these days um maybe not the riders but you know it's like yeah crap crap yeah crap rows of crap it's fucking always raining over there you know so it's very you know and you just like well let's just follow and and make your way basically you know there was no guidance as such that no one really that being before us that was well documented you know it was just a big adventure big adventure what do you think was different about the riders after you know that meant that you sort of saw him as the last patron like what was it that was missing from the champions that came after well it's just a mentality thing you know he was just yeah basically a bit of a bully i guess you call him you know you know back in the day you know school bullies well they were they were well renowned so he's a bit of a school bully you know in in the school of cycling you know and and obviously he pignon was a bit different then we had greg american and then me had miguel you know who's a lot different completely opposite you know to he know so i wouldn't say there's any particular adjusted mentality you know it was just a bit of a bully and probably was a bully at school you know i don't know you know um he's just like having his things his way you know um obviously he did suffer on occasions and and you know got at the other end of the stick, especially when he got hammered by Finion and often beaten by Laurent.

38:01He swung both ways, but I think, you know, like he was just very egotistical, proud, I don't know. Like when he won the Worlds in Solange, he said, I'm going to go up there. I'm going to just kill everyone. And he had the physical to be able to do that, you know, and he did that and he was attacking first lap and the end was jumping out the road. They said, slow down, slow down, you know. and that also that mentality got the better of him in in the 86 tour which he should have won he had a four minute lead and he attacked over the tour melee when he should have been riding conservatively following and then he blew up and obviously Greg won that tour you know otherwise he would have won the six tours so yeah it didn't always work in his favor

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40:18And you moved from that era, which almost I feel like the sort of 90s became, was the beginning of the 90s. That was a sort of changing into more what you might call kind of modern cycling. Different frame materials were coming along instead of steel. Training techniques were changing. You had things like heart rate monitors. You might have even had a power meter towards the middle of the 90s. And previously, a lot of guys had used cycling to kind of come out of poverty in a way. You'd had people like, way, way back, people like Fausto Coppi growing up on farms. And the bike was a thing for transport, but then you could also race it.

40:58And if you raced it, you earned way more money than laboring. But then maybe the 90s was more professionalization of it. And you then moved into a team which was trying to be a very successful English-speaking team. You moved into 7-Eleven, sort of segued into Motorola. And that was with, you know, names that then the history books look back on and go, wow, what, you know, Armstrong, Andy Hampstead, Steve Bauer, George Hincapie, Phil Anderson. How did that move into the sort of modern cycling kind of feel compared to your initial beginning in the 80s, racing as an amateur in Britain, moving into France, racing as an amateur, moving into a very French team, Persia.

41:39and then suddenly big money contracts around you, different equipment, much more coverage. Was that a nice feeling to move into that era or would you go, yeah, it was better back in the day? It was nice for me personally because obviously I was going to an English-speaking team surrounded by English-speaking people. Obviously I learnt French and I lived in France my whole career. but you still go towards your own speaking people and you know socialize with them that that was a different bonus and obviously by that time also I really kind of found my niche as to what kind of rider I was and what I could do what I couldn't do and um okay we had some fantastic names over the years but we were still not a team that was certainly under pressure to perform because we We were the, you know, the Yanks from over the pond.

42:39And it was pretty low key as regards the amount of pressure we were under or what we felt, you know, we weren't under the cost. We hadn't won the Tour de France, you know, for X number of years, like the French riders, you know, or the Giro or, you know, every win was a massive bonus, really, which was great for us. And it kind of played out in a favor in that we didn't have the pressure. and it's more a kind of party atmosphere almost you know though you know we obviously were serious and like I say training became a little bit more guided although that there were no platforms or anything you know you yeah it was definitely slowly when you look back evolving into yeah what eventually it has become today but you know it was a long time coming as everything And exponentially, everything is just accelerating as the years go by.

43:34You know, obviously for years, 50 years, cycling was pretty much the same. Same bike, same wheels, same races, same clothing. And over time, you know, it's evolving. And the individuals who are participating at the time are just kind of going with the flow, you know, and presented with what they have at that time, you know. it wasn't you know obviously then we had the adventures tri bars and such like and one you know later to where we are now where everything is it has to be aero and you know you just ask yourself how come we couldn't figure out how come no one figured out that being aerodynamic was so beneficial you understand yeah you know they say people to the moon supposedly they flew at Mach 3 in the Blackboard why wasn't there someone you know who was able to figure out that being aero was so beneficial or how could it be clever not to be eating during a ride how does that add up you know and we were so stupid not to figure that out either you know I mean you don't try and drive from here to Barcelona and the car's got no fuel in it you know but some for some reason no one figured it out it's tight i mean it is mad and i was talking to um uh somebody about graham obri recently and he was someone who sort of looked outside of cycling looked at skiing exactly this is in the like late 80s and went hey those guys go really fast and this is how they do it they put their body in this position i'll build a bike that does that.

45:14And then also, I think, Greg LeMond's famous tri-bars that helped him win in 1989, that came from skiing, from maybe, I think, a coach that he had sort of drafted in. Well, us in 7-11, we were the first people to use the tri-bars. Uh-huh. They're the Boone Lennon ones. That's a fact. Yeah. In the Tour de Trump in 1989. And Greg saw that. I see, right. And he figured it out. He said, okay i'm gonna have some of that and use it the same year to win the tour de france but we were actually the first people to use it because we had a chance to win that tour du trump and he wanted to save them for the giro i believe but we all i know we can win this race if we use those bars because dagotto was a was up there vader arden was the leader i believe and the bars made the difference and greg saw that and i was using them and i came second i think in time trial in atlantic city but yeah obviously greg suddenly was one of the guys who cottoned on you know and like you say i mean graham mowbrie but still people didn't didn't latch on to that like you say why do skiers go in a shoest position because it's 10 times faster you know uh but it's strange really when you analyze it when you think about it and then also as we know that was a darker time cycling as well as the advent of technology there was the advent of lots of people um using uh what would become banned substances at what point did you suddenly realize this is all going on around you and how how does that make someone in your position feel because you're trying to break into this sport well you've broken into this sport this is the thing that you love of you know as you said earlier this is your burning flame and then it's kind of it's going in really weird directions that aren't to do with the essence of competing let alone cycling how's that how's yeah how did that kind of unfold for you and what did you think about it well i think you know i think it's well documented that over since cycling began you know the individuals were were taking stuff to to be able to you know do these insane distances you know after they didn't have medical controls in 1903 but if you look at the stages uh 400k you know uh on a fixed wheel now you think okay hang on a minute you know how is that possible really you know and like everything else it just evolved over the years after they brought in controls i think after tom simpson passed on one point two but they're always one step ahead or they won't catch up fast enough you know i think it all came to head yeah in the 90s with the epo thing when it was just getting ridiculous and even you know the riders obviously were the ones who brought in the 50 limit you know because they could see that this is going to end badly you know for some individuals and it wasn't a sustainable situation and together with you know obviously the the authorities they came up with ways of of testing for EPO for example you know and other substances but yeah I mean it was getting stupid and in like 96 you know I was like it's insane every race you're going from the get-go just everyone's obviously feeling great um not everybody but the the speeds were just insane so it's like you know i'm i'm getting out of here type thing you know and that was that was and in hindsight yeah i could have kept on going for a few more years i'm i'm pretty sure that obviously i did keep cycling for many years after and i even rode the potential touring 98 you know um as a bit of a comeback with a run-off situation and i quite enjoyed it but But yeah, it did come to a head really.

49:25Luckily now I think it's under control. Obviously you get the odd case here and there. But I believe, my true belief is that everyone, including the best, are totally clean. Was that primarily the reason then for you retiring in 96? Well, it's one of the reasons. Obviously I had threatened to retire a couple of times before then. because yeah obviously I've been away I had two kids you know and but I was convinced to to ride on a bit but yeah I mean 15 years was was a good stretch and I felt that I'd come to the end of my tether and I wanted to move on really you know so but that was definitely uh an influence the situation you know with the EPO and I'm also curious because you would have ridden with a pre cancer Lance Armstrong and then he was diagnosed with cancer maybe in the year in the season you left or just around that sort of time yes in 96 of the last race that he actually did in 96 was with me which was the Breitling tie chart in Germany to our kind of criteria situation where he was not going very well and and actually that evening he missed dinner which I thought was very strange and went to bed type thing and shortly after that he was diagnosed so yeah after yeah i rode with lance um during those years to to the end of 96 and do you think that when he came back into um so when he made his recovery came back into cycling did that change his personality i'm just kind of calling back to thinking about the um he know being like last patron and thinking like there were elements of armstrong that i think people would say he was like Hino.

51:13He was a big character. He called the shots and he could really tear you a new one if you stepped out of line. Was he cut from the same Hino cloth? I guess, yeah, in hindsight, like you say, definitely, definitely. He was pre-cancer, obviously. He was quite similar. He was very determined. He wanted to do his thing. He didn't want to not get results. He was quite, you know, I need to win. Otherwise, I'm going to go back and go to university, you know. So he was very, yeah, obviously he liked to whip, like Hino did. He liked things his own way. So yeah, he was a patch one, like Hino, yes. When I said Hino was the last patch one, obviously last was a patch one as well.

51:58And I wonder if from the riders that you've seen over the years, and maybe even people that you've kind of, perhaps you coached now, but certainly like managed when you've looked at cycling through the lens of nurturing talent, is there some strange horrible link between difficult backgrounds and champions? And I think of the little that I've seen and read about Armstrong, for example, came from a difficult family background, didn't have a kind of father figure or did, but maybe the guy, he was a stepdad, maybe he was a stepdad and it was really difficult for him. Wiggins, so kind of segwaying into the Sean Wates and Bradley Wiggins relationship because Wiggins is someone who often says how much he looked up to you and had pictures of you on his bedroom wall.

52:41We've seen in his recent autobiography last year, The Chain, talks about a really tremendously horrible background and cycling being almost like a necessary thing for him to need to do just to keep going. Not necessarily even about the winning, just about losing his mind, burying himself in suffering and pushing. Is that too simplistic to look at it that way? is that too pop psychologist or is there something in there um i i couldn't really say i don't i think winners come from every walk of life including people who had you know hard upbringings i mean i'm i don't know in your eye for example what his upbringing of long finion was like um or he know for that matter or eddie you know i don't know i think obviously it can play a part and I can't answer for those individuals.

53:37Obviously, Bradley got into cycling and he enjoyed the cycling. And from my perspective, when you are kind of into something, then everything else is kind of background noise, you know. In hindsight, yeah, you can analyze it a lot more and say, you know, like I analyze, it's my time at ACBB, you know, it's hard, it's this, that and the other, blah, blah. But at the time, you're just like ticking off the days and looking ahead. You know, you're not looking back, not looking around you. And I would say, yeah, obviously you become, as all champions, you become very tunnel vision and, you know, you look at your goals.

54:21It's not until post-career, if you want to call it that, you know, that everything hits you because you've lost that tunnel vision journey. And suddenly you've got all this other shit going on, which at the time, you don't know what the bills, whoever's paid those bills and stuff come in. Normal life is not relevant, really. It's just outside of where you're going. So I don't think it pays them a part at all, really. It can be a part, but it's not, you know, I'm sure you've got plenty of people who have tough upbringings who, you know, are crap at sport, you know, who've tried, you know? Ultimately, it's about your physical ability.

55:08But, you know, if you've got the good physical ability and you've got the mindset, that's when you get the champions. And those are few and far between. And you can come from any walk of life, you know, he was from a farm, you know, Bali for London, you know, our last was in Texas, you know, he just maybe saw, he got into swimming, I believe. then he saw the triathlon and Dave Allen or whoever and so I'll have a go at that and then suddenly I'm good at this you know I'm gonna try harder I'm gonna do bigger competitions I mean that's how personally you know I mean not I didn't have a heart but I had very supportive parents but I was just you just wanted to be better better bigger bit bigger and better big and better speaking of Wiggins when did you start to get to know him and how did you realize sort of what kind of rider that he would become he would turn into um I first met him in 98 when he was still a junior I believe and um then he kind of signed with us with Leonard McCartney in 2001 and that all went to pop and then he went he did his thing and got a few medals on the track and rode and he was around about when I was dsing but to be honest you know when you're with a team so in my case team is your family and you obviously it's a full-time job when you're on the road and you don't really apart maybe say hello now and then talk to other riders i i never did or really you know obviously they're dropped and you wind down the window you say hang in there or whatever or give them a bid on or a gel you know but i didn't pay overly pay attention to bradley you know it It wasn't until 2009, I believe, that he suddenly hit the big time when he was up there in the Tour.

56:59And I remember talking to Johan and Johan like, we're scared of Wiggins, you know, rather than Schleck or whoever, you know, because he's absolutely flying. And then obviously it's the Sky era, you know, and we were reunited and Bradley had a great Tour in 2009. And the deal was that he was going to be the next big thing. and so it was a question of working towards that you know I mean life sometimes it is it's complicated but most of the time it's fairly simple and you're just working towards things and and getting on with the day-to-day activities you know of running a team or doing races or trying to get results and things just evolve and suddenly you you've got a fantastic team you've got a fantastic leader and the tour is there after the grabs you know do you think sky got lucky because i feel like the team was announced at start 2009 and bradley hadn't shown any sign of being the guy until that summer do you think it was just a real good fortune that just happened that someone appeared yeah for sure it's a series of coincidences i mean you can never win the tour by luck or win all the races that he won by luck but you could say that yeah he wasn't you know in 2005 for example he wasn't touted as winning the tour in five years time or 10 years time you know but who was type of thing you know um obviously you could say greg greg junior world champion came over hammered everyone won tour l 'avenir by five minutes or whatever you know he was definitely going to win the tour one day but Bradley yeah was more of of dark horse but sometimes some people take a long time to mature into what they're you know what they're going to become ultimately and and Bradley was was one one of those ones you know whereas others uh from the get-go are just you know incredibly good you know so I don't think luck's involved in it but you could say yeah Sky got lucky in that he turned out to be.

59:08Because initially, when I went up there to Manchester to sign a contract, they're like, we've got this guy, Pete Kennock, he's going to win the tour. But it wasn't Pete, it was Bradley. We had the finances to build a fantastic team. And you could say, the team are lucky, we've got Froome. Team are lucky, we've got Richie Port, Michael Rogers, edwell buxenhagen you know these guys just evolved into this and it all kind of came together which it did you know only on the physical front with the rise but the fact that we kind of sunny were operating as a team we were at the forefront of aerodynamics of hydration of warming up warming down blah blah blah you know all these things just came when we caught i would say and i always maintained we caught the rest of the bunch with their pants down you know and it took a long time for all the team to catch up and like ag2r for example you know i mean they nothing had changed for the last 15 years 20 years you know and suddenly we come along with like a bunch of robots you know and and it took them you know 10 years to figure out yeah hang on maybe we need to wear wear a helmet type thing yeah but part of all of that is management as well because you just listed a bunch of riders who either were or go on to be incredible riders in their own right what a roster to have but what a big bunch of personalities to potentially manage and of course as everyone knows two of the biggest during 2012 and for a couple years afterwards Wiggins and Froome and Wiggins has often said how important you were to his victory can you cast your mind back to what was going on then for Brad and what was his relationship was like or became with Chris.

1:00:57And then where were you in that and how did you manage to manage it successfully? Which you did because you took the team along with the rest of the managing staff and Balesford at the top. You took the team to where they needed to go. But it could have fallen apart, right? Yeah, it could have fallen apart. And when I think back and not only on that 2012 tour and many other seasons and many other races with other teams, I cannot remember a time that I screwed up with tactics or with dealing with individuals or you know on anything that is performance related you know so I think hang on yeah I must have been pretty good you know although you know I never thought I would be make a good DS or even didn't think about it really it just all fell into my lap through a series of coincidences you know and obviously yeah it culminated it all came to a head in in 2012 specifically the tour de France where obviously we had first and second uh and that obviously is still the only time British writers have become first and second in the tour de France or any grand tour and not least of the directed by an English person you know so yeah it was complicated but you know I'm a kind of very maybe call me blunt rude black and white I don't know I just know that that's the way I operate and that's what sometimes or a lot of times you needed to get the job done and specifically in 2012 Bradley you know I've been building through 10 and 11 obviously 11 he fell off broke his when he could have potentially won the tour that year you know i mean who's to say kind of britton cadel cadel you know was obviously a fantastic rider but he's not a grand tour you know icon so that 2012 we knew that bradley obviously in the level he won dolphin a is up there in other races up there in the volta that it was kind of you know the do or die year pretty much you know um and everything had been building towards that and from the get-go we were just he was unstoppable and obviously being a british team with a british rider which was the goal not saying the fru's not british of these by passport i guess but you know he wasn't considered the brit that bradley was and the fact that bradley performed from the start one panace one gromady He won the Dauphiné, won every time trial he did.

1:03:34He was the natural leader, and that was the goal, to go into the tour with him as the leader to win the race. Froome, obviously, was up there in the Valter, so he'd come out of Woodward, come out of nowhere in 2011 to place second in that Valter and eventually be promoted to be the winner. Had building slowly, and I personally knew, obviously 90 % of the season is based around the tour financially you know if you do nothing the whole year but if you win the tour place on the podium you're a big start you're going to get massive money so my perception was that Froome was only thinking about the tour and and the money that he would bring him money and stuff that goes with money and and results obviously so I had a little bit of a grudge on that because Bradley was winning everything and in the spirit of being you know like at Eddie Merckx you know winning a race race and get results and and where Trude was thinking and training and building towards a bit like Andrew Ryan did you know he only came good at the at the Giro either he was doing or the Tour fewer races losing weight graduate building Anyway, so yeah, I mean, that was the plan to win with Bradley.

1:04:56Obviously, Froome was flying and he could have easily won at tour if he decided to. But the deal was that Bradley was going to win it. So, you know, that was obviously how it panned out again, but not without a few glitches along the way. Most notably in the Alps, when Froome attacked, when the deal was he was not going to, you know. and obviously that upset Bradley because he felt that he couldn't trust a teammate. It was basically, you know, he felt it was a betrayal and he was ready to up sticks and go home, you know, just on principle, you know. That threw him, it's gone back on his word. You know, obviously, yeah, I was the guy closest to Bradley and I had to tell him everything will be okay sort of thing and we would resume the day after, you know.

1:05:45but after that was that breaking of his trust was a sign of things to come really and obviously once that's that room you know it's like your wife having an affair you know once that's happened is they have the same after so you know and you know consequently yeah i left the team and i'm and frume became the the the amount of will of the tour de vines and bradley kind of faded into obscurity on the GC front, really, you know. So it's just one of those ones, you know, when Bradley, yeah, he built up, built up, built up until his, you know, his flame was really bright. And then it was kind of extinguished.

1:06:28Obviously, he came back, broke the hour record, tried to win Paraguay, and World Time Trial champion, Olympic champion, Team Pursuit in Rio, you know, so he still had plenty of gear. but in the grand tour scheme of things, because it's such a mental challenge and you have to be very, to do it once, okay, but we all know that getting to the top is the easy part. Either way, staying at the top is a hard part. And that's where you really have to have mental resilience. I think, yeah, Bradley just didn't have that mental resilience, you know, he was too emotional. That's how he is. is you know it's a sensitive guy you know despite maybe appearances at times but yeah it was a bit tricky at the time but we managed it and we came first and second in the tour as well it was winning i don't know how many stages it was seven or something like that you know and dominating so that was a pinnacle of my career as a ds and i would say it was the pinnacle of my career you You know, Bradley leading out Cav on the Translizade, you know, him in the yellow, Cav in the World Championship, me as a DS in the car.

1:07:41That is never going to be repeated. So my place in history is forever cemented, you know, I would say. But never to be repeated. But did you think at that time or just afterwards, given all the dust has settled, what's happened has sunk in. Did you think, yeah, come on 2013, here we can go again. Was there an alternative future that never came to pass where the team keeps you on or you don't leave the team, however which way that pans out? And as fragile sometimes as a rider like Wiggins was, you're there to help him, to lend him your animal instinct to get him over the line for more GC wins. Do you feel like there was an alternative future and the team closed you guys out?

1:08:31In a way, I think, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I was closed out kind of thing, and Bradley was closed out latterly. And people say there's no one person that's bigger than any club. But I would say Froome was almost bigger than Team Sky, you know, in that they knew that they had to let him have his way because they could see the future. obviously they knew i think bradley's weaknesses and and phoom's stretch you know not only the bike you know and obviously i wasn't involved in contract talks and this that and the other you know i was just there on the road directing the team to get the best possible result so i'm sure you know it was day b was the guy that was doing all the deals and he got a taste of of of phoom's you know, ambition and the way he was.

1:09:27And I believe that Bradley was kind of sacrificed in a way, you know, for the future of the team and the results, you know. And obviously Froome went on to win the tour, you know, another four times or whatever. And, you know, become hugely successful, you know. Froome was the guy, he showed he had the mental resilience, even when he was under the cosh, big time, you know, when he won that duo, you know, how he just was able to compartmentalize things, you know, and not let it affect his riding at all. And, you know, from that point of view, he was very strong mentally, physically, obviously, you know, to be able to do that.

1:10:16Whereas I believe there's no way Bradley was capable of that kind of ruthlessness. Bradley's not a ruthless guy, you know. Froome is, in my opinion. How was that like being on the other side when you go to Tinkoff for a couple of years? Being on the other side of that Froome and Sky thing, was that such a different beast? Did they sort of see you as like, inside that you can help us get Contador to beat him? Or was it kind of just like, all of you just being like, bloody hell, how are we going to do this? Well, I think, you know, it was always going to be a big arse. But I primarily went to Tinkoff.

1:10:51because Stephen Young, a former Sky DS, was also there and he wanted me there. I knew you'd be on up as I was a DS in CSE days. So, yeah, I think I got well with Stephen. So it was, you know, I wouldn't say it was, even though there's only 10 years ago, cycling has changed a lot since then. You know, it was not super, super serious, do or die type thing, you know. So, yeah, obviously I had some insight and obviously I had a good track record, you know, and I knew my way around a bike race. But physically, you know, Foon was beaten on occasions and I'm sure Kansal will have won the tour in 2014.

1:11:38But he had that unfortunate crash and that was the year that Foon wasn't good for whatever reason, you know, and also the crash. But yeah, I think we had Peter Sagan, we had other cars to play, and it was a bit of fun, and Oleg was a bit of a crazy character, you know, so it was all a bit of a game for him, you know, and, you know, jump around on the podium and spray his hair pink and shit like that, you know, it was a different vibe, and it was almost like 7-11 motorbike, you know, pressure, but not a massive amount of pressure. it wasn't you know we were making publicity no matter what because i think was painting his hair pink you know um so it was it was good time and yeah obviously that famously on the in the tour of spain the form we got stage in 2016 when we attacked and put through me and um most of the team outside the time limit you know that was definitely yeah a bit of a grudge match type scenario you know ultimately yeah we didn't win that that volta and I bet it was only fourth Kitana latched onto us and that won that that volta otherwise Froome would have won that all won as well you know did it feel like a good score to sort of settle moment like that do you go you wake up in the morning you're like I can do this yeah I mean I remember I and obviously yeah the The day after, I went up the team car next to day B.

1:13:07Yeah, half their team were outside the time limit, but they got put back in. I said, don't you bloody dare attack with those guys who were outside the time limit, you know? When you move around as you've done through different teams as a rider and then different teams as a DS, so 15 years a rider, 15 years a DS, do you go up to Dave Brailsford and say something like that and he sort of finds it funny and there's a bit of camaraderie? Or do you actually start to develop allegiances and also do you begin to sort of have enemies in a way? Is that how cycling works or is it just one big, do you know what, it's a bit of a giggle, it's just a game when you're on the inside of it?

1:13:51See, ultimately we are a big family and we have to get on more or less with each other. But sometimes there is a bit of niggling there, a bit of hate. you know but ultimately it's only like Dave B said at the start of skype no one ever died for not winning a bike race it's serious but it's not that serious so you know yeah there was a bit legal someday sometimes but ultimately that's the way life is you know ultimately we're all together we're all humans and you know as long as no one's like killing someone then it's fine type of thing. I remember a funny episode. After my first training camp with Tinkoff in Canaries, I flew to Mallorca to go on a bit of a bike riding holiday with my sons.

1:14:46I suddenly spotted Dave B on the flight with me. And we were at Baggy Claim, and he hadn't seen me. So he was walking towards me. I hid behind his post, and I jumped out. and I was like, Albezo flying, you know. So I think all's, what's the saying, you know, all's good in love and war, whatever, I don't know, you know. You know, obviously I saw Dave Beats tomorrow, you know, I'll give him a hug sort of thing. You know, he was an infant, big part of my DSN career, you know, and he was the key to success for Team Sky, you know. At that time, obviously everything goes in circles and the moment he's on the receiving end, you know, the team on the receiving end, you know, but it just shows you nothing lasts forever.

1:15:37You know, you've got to enjoy it while you can. Absolutely. And last question, Sean, because nothing can last forever. We've got to let you get on and go and ride your bike again. Today's recovery day, tomorrow. Oh, is it? Six hours yesterday, six hours tomorrow. Brilliant. So last question. somehow I'm a team owner and I've managed to get you to commit to coming in to wanting to be a DS all over again but I'm asking you for your elevator pitch on how we're gonna dethrone Pogaccia we know he's an incredibly strong rider so strong the strongest perhaps anyone's ever seen but we've got tactics we've got you Sean what tactics would you implement as a team manager to take someone like him out of it.

1:16:25If you're Decathlon and Paul Sextus, what are they not doing that they should be doing? Well, at the moment, nothing. Because, I mean, contrary to what some people think, you know, unless Bogart makes a mistake, which he doesn't and which he shouldn't do, can't beat him. Unless you've got Remco, Sextus, whoever else on the same team, you know, but nothing lasts forever. I mean, we saw the numbers, Sextos in Lombardia, you know, so anything's possible. But I believe that next year, by accident, Poligar will win the tour again, you know. Sextos is on the rise. Jonas is not at the level of Poligar.

1:17:09Obviously, he has defeated him in the past, but I think they learn their lessons from the errors they made. I don't think Remco has got it, even with the time trial kilometers. You know, I think because Texas has come along, plus all these time trial kilometers are going to motivate Remco and Red Bull, that Poligar is going to be doubly motivated. I mean, up to the last couple of years, he's been, obviously, he has to try, but he more or less has been winning at will, you know, especially this year. So he'll be extra motivated. And I don't believe, especially obviously they've got a super strong team.

1:17:49They're able, but it's a straight out race. You can't beat him. That's off your count. Tactically, what is that he can do? I would say, I mean, when in history really has not the strongest rider won. Okay, if you catch him out, like we did catch out through him in 2016 in the Volta, Well, that was a severely amateur mistake by them, you know? And I would suggest the DS on that day, it wasn't Nicolas Portal. He was not up to scratch. And that's the type of mistake that I've never done, you know? And the DS on that day did not have the riders ready. The riders were not where they should have been.

1:18:30They were too confident. They were lax. And it's a serious game by riding at the top. And you can't be lax. You need to be on it. excellent well Sean thank you so much for being on with us for being on the Cyclist Magazine podcast it's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you I really feel like I could do this for happily for another hour and a half yeah I'm not sure if you want to do it back but I was being so fat it's fascinating getting to talk um talk to you because the yeah the breadth of your experience is huge um so yeah thank you very much for sharing that with us and with our listeners pleasure pleasure thank you sean yates ladies and gentlemen thank you again sean uh so much for coming on uh the pod great to chat to you really enjoyed that definitely could have just carried on talking for an awfully long time man i think that guy's got some stories and we didn't even scratch the surface so maybe we'll get sean back on at some point um that is if we can pry him away from his cycling.

1:19:29Like I said at the top of the show, man, I think the guy does a lot of miles, probably a lot more, probably almost as many miles as he did once, but maybe even more. I just don't, I mean, if you're retired, wow, what a life to be retired in Spain where you can just ride your bike. That's something to aspire to. Anyway, on that note, I do want to point you just back before I go, point you back to the show notes, to Action Medical Research. Do check them out and donate if you can. Just read about them if you can. Just understand what they do. Tell your mates. Hold it in your mind. It's all about awareness as well as fundraising.

1:20:04So check out Action Medical Research. And also, like I say, Sean runs a coaching business. You might want coaching. You might know someone that wants coaching. That's a great Christmas present. I don't know if you can get coaching subscriptions. I'm sure you can. But yeah, Sean Yates Coaching. Check him out. Again, I'll put some links in the show notes. in the meantime thank you so much for joining me on the podcast and i shall look forward to being in your ears again i mean not figuratively of course in another fortnight toodaloo